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View Full Version : Dumore? Fugetta'bout'it! Enter CutterMaster



YankeeMetallic
01-19-2007, 08:12 PM
I am beaming with anticipation with what tomorrow will bring. I recently posted questions about a Dumore toolpost grinder I was about to purchase. Today while yakkin' with the old fart machinists over a cup O' Joe I was asking them about the Dumore. Ol' Tom piped up and said. "Come look at this." He led me to the back of his machinery warehouse behind the hulls of Bridgeports, Cincinatti's, DoAll's etc. In the dark corner sat a Cutter Master, circa 1982 that looked almost unused. He handed me the machinery manual, and the original invoice dated 1989 for the machine, dressers, tailstocks, airbearing, workholding, radius dresser, drill cam, cam grinding fixture and set of Hardinge 5C set by 1/16th's totalling $24,141. All of which was sitting on top of a metal cabinet right in front of me! Inside of the cabinet were 27 cup wheels, 2 new in the box diamond wheels, flap disks, and 3 small boxes of grinding parts I am not even familiar with. He said the grinder had been sitting there for about 1 1/2 years and was barely used because the previous manufacuring company had broken the cable feed under the table and pushed it aside (It uses a feed cable and not a rack). I picked it up for $625 and traded some lathe chucks fer the whole gammit! With all of the attachments, it will sharpen ANYTHING, including OD grinding which is what I wanted to do in the first place.
I'm not bragging, mind you, just EXCITED as HELL!!! I don't know the first thing about grinding but I'll learn NOW!
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e254/YankeeMetallic/2007-01-19001.jpg
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e254/YankeeMetallic/2007-01-19002.jpg

Alistair Hosie
01-19-2007, 08:21 PM
You just won a gold watch I'll give you $700 fir delivered to mainland Scotland:Dwell done bonnie lad have fun Alistair

Optics Curmudgeon
01-19-2007, 09:06 PM
Deep, deep burning jealousy.

Joe

CCWKen
01-19-2007, 09:13 PM
Ah man, you lucky dog! A well earned gloat I might say.

lane
01-19-2007, 09:25 PM
you one lucky Ba----d . Been looking for one of those for 6 years now at that kind of price . Found something that will do ,but that is just what I have wonted. Good Luck and Have Fun

charlie coghill
01-19-2007, 09:32 PM
Congrats on your find.Hope that you will enjoy it for many years to come.

torker
01-19-2007, 09:37 PM
Now THAT is a serious score. BTW...I dropped by to visit an ol' tool dealer down south a few years ago. My 1982 Cutter master tool grinder fell out of my coat when I left. I think that may be it. I've been looking for that for sometime. Tell ya what...I'll let you try it for awhile...then when yer bored with it...you can send it back to me....I'll even pay the postage!
Thanks!
Russ

J Tiers
01-20-2007, 12:17 AM
Hah.... You are missing a very important part.

And, just 'cause I'm jealous, I won't even tell you what it is..... :p

JRouche
01-20-2007, 12:26 AM
Well, another let down in my miserable, failing, soggy wet noodle of a life.

Thanks for lifting me from the dirt and dust, that crap that fell from the back of my refrigerator. Up to the level where my dog will pee, he will pee on top of my head thinking it was a simple mushroom, sprouted from the dung of a milk goat.

Yep, you just raised my self esteem to where I might actually see, or here from those that have seen, the rays of sun that supposedly grace this orb they call earth.

Oh, good score.....JRouche

BadDog
01-20-2007, 01:30 AM
I don't know you, but I find I don't like you very well... :mad:

Oh well, I guess I have to add a requisite smiley :flipoff2: (some of you will recognize this) and say "Congrats" just so I can claim I'm just kidding and not really that petty and jealous.

Congrats! Really, I'm serious! @%$#@^...

;)

Marc M
01-20-2007, 03:50 AM
Sweet! That's just one of those deals that's too good to be true for most of us. I've been looking at T&C grinders for quite a few years now. I have quite a few 'new' endmills people threw in with machinery because they're such great guys.:rolleyes: I looked at the DIY Quorns, Tinkers, etc. but it looked like they'd only do the ends and not the flutes. They also looked limited to fairly short endmills. Same for the pricey Deckels. From everything I've been reading online, the chinese version of the Deckel is just about useless. The Darex endmill grinder looked like it would be useable albeit on the small side. The american made Cuttermasters looked pretty decent. They weren't the most flexible things in the world, but came with an air bearing with enough travel to do the extra long endmills I have. I bid on a few but they kept going for close to $2000. Then I ran across a Chevalier "Cuttermaster" on Fleabay. It was exactly what I was looking for. Not only could I sharpen end mills with it, but also do some light surface and OD grinding. Unfortunately, I was outbid and it went for over $2000. About a month ago another one popped up on Fleabay and I got it for under $1200. :) It was just the grinder and air bearing, no other accessories. It was made in Taiwan in 1992.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i89/RatGuru/TC_GRIND.jpg

You're going to love it. If your manual is the same as the I've got, it's just about useless. It's written in Chinglish, so it can be difficult to follow. The method they describe for grinding the ends of endmills is just plain stupid.:confused: Once you get yours up and running, you'll quickly discover that there's often more than one way to do an operation on these due to their flexibility. I see you were luck enough to get the radius head for doing things like ball endmills. The manual does cover setup on that as well, but since I don't have one I didn't read thru that section. If you have any questions about the machine, don't hesitate to ask. I'm certainly not an expert, but have gotten the hang of sharpening end mills with it. The cable for the table is pretty easy to replace. If you run into any problems there I should be able to help.

Enjoy!

Marc -

Your Old Dog
01-20-2007, 08:52 AM
Nice score! Seems it's true, things come to those who are patient enough to give them time to get there!!

Pretty decent of you to offer to sharpen our cutters for us but I missed your mailing address. I got a small box ready to go our now in the mail :D

speedsport
01-20-2007, 09:42 AM
I HATE YOU!!

congrats on a major score.

YankeeMetallic
01-20-2007, 05:11 PM
Hey Marc-
Your grinder seems to be in excellent condition as well. I appreciate your offer for guidance should I need it. I was excite to see the radius head as well since I can turn some of my expensive carbide endmills that have crashed end-flutes into radius grinds.

lane
01-20-2007, 09:58 PM
Sweet! That's just one of those deals that's too good to be true for most of us. I've been looking at T&C grinders for quite a few years now. I have quite a few 'new' endmills people threw in with machinery because they're such great guys.:rolleyes: I looked at the DIY Quorns, Tinkers, etc. but it looked like they'd only do the ends and not the flutes. They also looked limited to fairly short endmills. Same for the pricey Deckels. From everything I've been reading online, the chinese version of the Deckel is just about useless. The Darex endmill grinder looked like it would be useable albeit on the small side. The american made Cuttermasters looked pretty decent. They weren't the most flexible things in the world, but came with an air bearing with enough travel to do the extra long endmills I have. I bid on a few but they kept going for close to $2000. Then I ran across a Chevalier "Cuttermaster" on Fleabay. It was exactly what I was looking for. Not only could I sharpen end mills with it, but also do some light surface and OD grinding. Unfortunately, I was outbid and it went for over $2000. About a month ago another one popped up on Fleabay and I got it for under $1200. :) It was just the grinder and air bearing, no other accessories. It was made in Taiwan in 1992.

http://i70.photobucket.com/albums/i89/RatGuru/TC_GRIND.jpg

You're going to love it. If your manual is the same as the I've got, it's just about useless. It's written in Chinglish, so it can be difficult to follow. The method they describe for grinding the ends of endmills is just plain stupid.:confused: Once you get yours up and running, you'll quickly discover that there's often more than one way to do an operation on these due to their flexibility. I see you were luck enough to get the radius head for doing things like ball endmills. The manual does cover setup on that as well, but since I don't have one I didn't read thru that section. If you have any questions about the machine, don't hesitate to ask. I'm certainly not an expert, but have gotten the hang of sharpening end mills with it. The cable for the table is pretty easy to replace. If you run into any problems there I should be able to help.

Enjoy!

Marc -

SO YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BEAT ME OUT ON E_BAY A FEW Month AGO life sucks. I reconize the grinder.

DR
01-20-2007, 11:18 PM
How do you do OD grinding on this machine? I didn't see a motorized work head (or did I miss it?).

Marc M
01-20-2007, 11:29 PM
SO YOU ARE THE ONE WHO BEAT ME OUT ON E_BAY A FEW Month AGO life sucks. I reconize the grinder.

Sorry 'bout that Bidder 2! If only I had known I was bidding against a fellow HSM member... But look on the bright side - it looks like you've got a lot more really nice toys in your crib than I have so your life must not suck as bad as mine. ;)



Your grinder seems to be in excellent condition as well.

Funny how the majority I've seen appear to have had very little use. Makes you wonder how many actually see a positive return on investment (especially when they pay over $25,000 for it - which seems insane for this machine:confused: ). Judging by the wear, I think I've put more miles on mine in the couple of weeks I've had it than it's had total since it was made. :cool:

Marc -

Mcgyver
01-21-2007, 12:16 AM
I've the same machine Marc, and have found it very good. The Chevalier is the Taiwan knock of the the Cuttermaster, but since thats where the bports are now made figure Taiwan is ok and a world of difference better than mainland :) I agree, if the grinder won't sharpen the flutes what's the point, I rarely plunge with them and don't want to grind .200 thou off the end to get to a fresh part of the cutter. Also after using the air bearing and seeing how nicely the tooth will follow the rest, the air spindle becomes a bit of a must have.

the radius attachment is nice. imo you reach 99% utilization if you can sharpen endmills and drills. yeah other stuff comes along (if i had a horizontal mill i'd make a set of centres) but this captures most it. you fortunately have the universal vice, I had to build one. I also built a drill grinding rig - imo properly ground drills challenge old adage that drills are not precision tooling.

The Chinglish manual is a joke. Literally, it is humorous to read. Did the cuttermaster come with a manual? - that would be nice to have. Paid 1200 cdn to a dealer (used) for mine, come to think of it more than i've paid for a single machine. My scot luck must have run out on that one, still, no regrets

Marc M
01-21-2007, 01:38 AM
I agree, if the grinder won't sharpen the flutes what's the point, I rarely plunge with them and don't want to grind .200 thou off the end to get to a fresh part of the cutter.

In the 50+ endmills I've ground so far, only 4 or 5 didn't need the flutes ground. I'm not sure how they were used seeing as they were 'new' and all.


I also built a drill grinding rig - imo properly ground drills challenge old adage that drills are not precision tooling.

Would you mind posting some pics of your drill rig? I wasn't lucky enough to get the drill grinding attachment with mine either. I was going to play around with faceted drills as they can be done with just the air spindle. But because it will require multiple setups, the traditional method would be a lot faster.


Did the cuttermaster come with a manual? - that would be nice to have.

I would also be interested in having a copy of the original manual.

Marc -

Mcgyver
01-21-2007, 09:30 AM
i posted a long description here of my universal vice and drill grinding attachment.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=14890&highlight=mcgyver+universal

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=15226&highlight=mcgyver+grinding

as you'll see it too produces a faceted end which some say is better, works well for me. Compared to swinging the head around to do it with the air bearing, this jig is fast. I haven't puzzled out all the setups and angles to do it with the air bearing, might be a real pain the ass as slinging the head around is slow, not something you want to do for every bit, then again haven't tried it. there's also the problem of how to hold the different size including the morse taper shanks.

Marc M
01-21-2007, 02:12 PM
Beautiful work Mcgyver. Somewhere I ran across an import universal for $99 but they are currently out of stock. I'll probably go that route then scambo your drill holder to stick on the end of it. I just started to play around with drills now that I have the majority of my endmills and countersinks sharpened.

I wanted to try the 6 facet design mainly for my brother's job. He's a trailer mechanic and they wipe out a lot of drills when sectioning or replacing flooring on older trailers. The flooring gets screwed down to crossmembers which are hot rolled to begin with, and get pretty rusty after a few years. When drilling thru them for the new screws it tends to take the corners off drills pretty quickly. Usually they're not too bad, but you run into some that are nightmares. I'm hoping the 6 facet design will hold up better than traditional conical points and make those jobs easier for him.

To sharpen the drill, I shoved it in the air bearing with the lip parallel to the the table and the index collar engaged. I set the bearing angle to 1/2 the primary point angle. The head was then swiveled 90deg and turned 180 so it was coaxial to the air bearing. I then angled the head up 5deg for the primary clearance. I then ground the primary angle on the first lip, indexed the bit 180 and did the second lip. I used the mic stops on the table to control depth and fed wih the table y axis. Once the primary was done, I reset the head and bearing to the secondary angles and ground them. Came out perfect, at least until I tried to cut the 6 facet. Completely wrong on that angle. It was late so I went home. I don't think the setup will be too bad if I've got a handful to do. All the primaries can be ground, then set for secondary angles and do those, etc. An air ratchet makes swinging the head quick and easy. Not as elegant as your solution but should work fine till I get around to stealing your idea. I just have to get the angles pinned down. According to the MMS article ( http://www.mmsonline.com/articles/068901.html ) the optimum angles worked out to 144 / 80-85 (pri / sec) point angles and 5 / 20 for the relief angles. The 144 deg pri point angle looks really shallow. What angles have you been using on your bits? Any advice you could offer would be greatly appreciated.

Marc -

Mcgyver
01-22-2007, 10:44 AM
Mark, thanks. On the angles, I just guessed thinking that with the facets i more or less wanted to emulate what a regularly ground conical point drill does - not saying that's the right way but lacking other info its how i went at it. I've used the standard 118 point angle and a 7 degree primary an 14 secondary clearance. I'm now of the opinion that i need to cut that back somewhat, might try 4/8 or so - the 7/14 can cut too aggressively if you are not careful. My sense is that the shape of the conical point controls feed rate to a degree and makes the drills a bit idiot proof whereas my aggressive 7/14 point could get into trouble if you weren't careful with the feed...but like i say I'm backing off next time to see if i can get idiot proof point i require :D

I know facets 5&6 make the point stronger. I haven't bothered yet, but probably should, especially on the larger sizes. The only problem I've had was I jambed a large (around 3/4 irrc) drill and the corners of the lip snapped - I'll be able to save a lot grinding of grinding by putting the extra facets on. I was feeding very heavily with only a small pilot hole - wanted to see what the point could do. I cut far better than was is was used to, but alas at the expense of point strength. maybe those two extra facets will give me the best of both worlds. Haven't felt the need for 5&6 on the small sizes

Wirecutter
01-22-2007, 12:14 PM
He shoots... he SCORES. Thus encurring the envious wrath of everyone else here. Damn you.

Nice work. :D

-Mark

wierdscience
01-22-2007, 02:09 PM
He shoots... he SCORES. Thus encurring the envious wrath of everyone else here. Damn you.

Nice work. :D

-Mark

Not me,I have a K.O.Lee:D

Nice grinder though,my question is will you actually use it?

Too_Many_Tools
01-22-2007, 02:32 PM
Nice score.

Could someone explain to me why sharpening equipment is so expensive?

The main machines, the accessories...is it what the market will bear?

Thanks

TMT

DR
01-22-2007, 05:23 PM
Could someone explain to me why sharpening equipment is so expensive?

The main machines, the accessories...is it what the market will bear?

Thanks

TMT

Good equipment of any kind is expensive. My Weldon air bearing fixture (quality) by itself costs more than the complete grinder pictured at the beginning of this thread. Rutland has that grinder with accessories and air bearing currently on sale for $2450.

I can't imagine what Yankee got with his to bring the total of list prices anywhere near $24K.

YankeeMetallic
01-22-2007, 07:11 PM
I can't imagine what Yankee got with his to bring the total of list prices anywhere near $24K.
It seemed a bit steep to me especially in 1989 dollars. Here is a copy of the invoice that came with the machine and accessories. Maybe you can see something I dont. I have everything that is on the list. I imagine the Hardinge 5C set bumped it a but.
http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e254/YankeeMetallic/CutterMasterInvoice.jpg

DR
01-22-2007, 08:37 PM
You got me, I don't see anything that adds up like that. The basic grinder with accessories is currently listed at around $3500 from Rutland.

A couple extra fixtures from Chevalier and Cuttermaster wouldn't make the difference. Hardinge collets were around $18/each then.

Puzzling.

Geez, in my experience visiting Rosemead Machinery that may have been one of their larger sales. You wonder how they manage to keep the doors open.

Marc M
01-23-2007, 12:27 AM
My guess is the receipt is inflated. Notice that the invoice # is X'd out. It sounds like Rosemead Machinery is a small mom & pop place. If so they might not have a problem with writing out an inflated receipt for the customer if it meant a sale or they were just a good customer. Who knows what was going on at Gant Western. They could have been pulling an insurance scam or wanted to boost the companies assets on paper for any number of reasons. That kind of stuff goes on all the time.

I'm not sure what the handwritten figures refer to. $3950 would sound plausable for the basic machine, but not with all the added goodies. The serial number is 0005 so this is likely of the first machines imported. It appears to be made by Chevalier, same as mine but with a different paint scheme and some other minor changes. The initial machines could have listed for much higher prices as they sought to determine market value, though I still can't imagine $24000. Since Yankee's is also a Chevalier with the same high quality chinglish manual, I'm sure it was produced in Taiwain, same as mine. I'll bet the machines that Rutland has are now being made mainland China which would reduce the pricing quite a bit.

Evan
01-23-2007, 01:46 AM
The reason the invoice number is X'ed out is because it is the third page in a three page invoice. The first one started on page 11096 and ended on this page that has preprinted invoice numbers. Note that the invoice is hand typed, not computer printed (the xxxxx's). The previous two pages account for the rest of the order that adds up to that price. I don't imagine that orders spilled over to a second or third page very often.

Marc M
01-23-2007, 02:53 AM
You get the gold star Evan! :)

YankeeMetallic
01-23-2007, 04:18 PM
Clever Evan! Now I am wondering what else is out thaeir that I should have gotten!! What do you think that package price on the page would have gone for in 1989?
I am still exhuberantly happy about the price and purchase.

JRouche
01-23-2007, 06:57 PM
No doubt a good price (what you paid) anyway. I have seen just the radius attachments go for a couple hundred.

Still would like to know more about (and see pics) the cam grinder. I have the other stuff, just not that one. JRouche

Too_Many_Tools
01-24-2007, 02:30 AM
Good equipment of any kind is expensive. My Weldon air bearing fixture (quality) by itself costs more than the complete grinder pictured at the beginning of this thread. Rutland has that grinder with accessories and air bearing currently on sale for $2450.

I can't imagine what Yankee got with his to bring the total of list prices anywhere near $24K.

I know that sharpening equipment is expensive...but my question is WHY?

If you take a good look at various sharpeners, there really is not much to them.

The accessories are not that complex either.

I can understand the expense of good bearings but the rest of the machine is not that complex.

TMT

DR
01-24-2007, 07:25 AM
I know that sharpening equipment is expensive...but my question is WHY?

If you take a good look at various sharpeners, there really is not much to them.

The accessories are not that complex either.

I can understand the expense of good bearings but the rest of the machine is not that complex.

TMT

Relatively low production?? What the market will bear??