WOT: Memory foam mattress toppers

[Evan]

I had a particularly poor night in another futile attempt to engage in what passes for sleep. This is related to my health problems and isn't a passing thing and will not get better. I have pain in most parts of my muscular/skeletal system and am not able to sleep in one position for very long.

My wife made a comment a minute ago that a local store has on sale memory foam mattress toppers. I have always suspected that I wouldn't like sleeping on one but have never had an opportunity to try one. They are expensive.

Does anybody have any experience with this sort of mattress or mattress topper? In particular anyone with any type of arthritis?

[Iceman Motorsports]

I bought a high dollar memory foam mattress a few years ago. Yes you can dance on it without your beer can spilling or waking your partner up but I will never get another one. I've had two back and two shoulder surgeries and a good quality spring mattress still works better for me.

[cybor462]

Wow this is neat. I was thinking of one of those 3000.00 matress sets that you can put your Wine glass on (let's get this stuff right) and it will not spill. Of course if you drink 20/20 you wouldn't care anyway.
But getting back to this, I too have a wasted back and have only been able to sleep on a water bed ever since 15+ years now. I have a waveless matress w/heat and I do sleep. I have not had a good nights sleep for over 15 years but al least with the water bed I can sleep.
I have been watching those commercials about memory foam and to be honest my wife is the one that hates the waterbed. She wants the foam.
I can't offer any help on the foam. I will watch this to see what others say.

[slowtwitch]

Boy, I'll be watching this thread. I've been wondering about these beds, also :D I'm in the same boat, years of hard work, body abuse and now paying the price :(

pete

[Alistair Hosie]

as you know I have parkinsons disease and dont sleep well at all on top of this I am on a breathing machine and last night was the worst night for me too jumping jumping jumping all night long I had to drug myself so much that this morning I am sleeping sleeping all the time during the day I get to my workshop 25 yards away about once a week at the moment and yes I have a spring ,matrress so I feel your pain brother Alistair

[pcarpenter]

This is a little divergent from the original question, but it is an endorsement of a product that is *great* in my opinion.

We have one of the Select Comfort beds. My back is *so* much happier. It takes a bit to get your firmness tuned just right and to get used to a mattress that conforms, but WOW! What a difference. The even pressure makes a huge difference.

They know how to sell these in the Select Comfort stores....they put you on one and air it up until you tell them that it feels about like your current mattress. They then let air out until you tell them that you can feel the pressure even out over your body. They let you lay there for a minute or two and then run it back up to the number you were at when you said it felt like your own bed.....which then feels like a brick with sheets.

We come home from vacations where we have been on a variety of other people's beds and go back to it and say ahhhhh!

They have an outlet store, too that sells beds that were returned during the trial period. They completely replace the whole mattress cover so the only thing that has been anywhere else is the innerds (air panels) and the inflator. They cannot sell these to some states that have laws against the sale of used bedding. We saved quite a bit on what is otherwise a really expensive mattress.

I have no connection to the company other than being a very satisfied customer.

paul

[Willy]

Evan,35 years as a truck driver and heavy equipment operator has left me with not only several herniated discs but with cervical spine damage as well.Too many years of using my back instead of my head! I haven't been able to sleep for more than four hours at a time without pain since 1981.
Although I have not had any personal experience with the memory foam,I can tell you that I have tried just about everything else.After having spent thousands and thousands of dollars on different types of beds...just about anything you can think of,I am always reminded of what a neurosurgeon told me a few years ago.In a nutshell he said that if half of the hype that the mattress hucksters said was true,then he would be out of a job.
So if you do find that miracle please share it with the rest of us as I'm sure there are more of us out there that sleep in pain.
If you do try one out, make sure that you can return it after a couple of months if not satisfied.
These are supposed to be the golden years,golden years my ass...hell some days I can't even write my name.

[Mark Hockett]

I have the same mattress as Paul, Select Comfort. I worked as an auto mechanic for 24 years. Bending over fenders and lifting stuff like cylinder heads and manifolds off can really mess up your back. I used to have muscle spasms in my back all the time, to the point I could not stand up for a day or more. Since we got the Select comfort matress my back has been great. I have not had a muscle spasm for over three years and I'm still lifting heavy stuff in the shop.

Just like Paul when my wife and I go on vacation we have trouble getting comfortable on the normal mattresses and its a relief when we get home to our bed.

One thing I like about them is they can be rebuilt. If the top pad wears out its very easy to change, same with the cover and any other part in the mattress. That feature is kind of nice for guys like us who like to fix stuff instead of throw it away. I also like that because getting rid of old matresses can be a pain and it seemed like we were getting a new mattress every 4 years. This matress came with a 20 year warranty so it will probably be around for a while.

[lynnl]

Several years ago when I was having extreme back and sciatic pain, I ordered one of those Select Comfort beds and tried it for the 90 days or six months, or whatever the trial period was. I sent it back. Decided it made no difference at all.

Fortunately, I later discovered the root causes of these problems are not physical at all, but rather mental and emotional.

It's not the physical wear and tear, it's life's accumulation of emotional baggage (much of it self inflicted) that manifests itself and masquerades as physical ailments.

It's unfortunate that I can not force you to believe that. You'd be far better off if I could!

[lugnut]

Evan, we bought one of the Memory Foam Mattress toppers from Costco about a year ago and we both have liked it real well. I don’t know how the one we have compares with what you’re looking at. Ours is about 3 ½ inches thick and quite heavy. Cost about $120. When it came, it was vacuum packed in a heavy plastic sack and was only about the size of a pillow. After opening the package and letting is set for 24 hours, it puffed up to a Queen size mattress about 3 ½ inches thick. We both sleep much better and I know my back is the better for it. The only problem we have is that it has a tendency to work toward the foot of the bed. And Bottom, fitted sheets struggle to fit it in.
Try one you will like it
Mel

[Weston Bye]

Oh, my aching back...for years. Not to mention the arthritis in knees, hips, shoulders. I found that I need to sleep with a lot of blankets to keep the joints warm -even in summer- or they hurt and wake me up sooner than normal, which is about 4 hrs. The rest of the night is just drifting in and out or laying awake solving the next day's problems.

I stumbled on this: ankylosing spondylitis. Google it and look at the multitude of symptoms. hopefully you don't have it. I might, as I seem to have *most* of the possible symptoms. I will be seeing the doctor next week. Even if he confirms the diagnosis, there isn't much to be done. but at least it would provide a reason for the aches and pains, the stooped posture and general malaise. Seems, if I have it, I've had it most of my life, so I don't expect that knowing will change my lifestyle much - just provide an explanation. "See, this is why I am a slouching lazy bum."

[J Tiers]

The good part...... They mold to/around you, and tend to equalize pressure all over.

The bad part..... same as the above..... If you shift a lot as you sleep, you may have interesting dreams if the bed is "holding you" in one position. Particularly if it is one in which you don't sleep well anyway.

I like the so-called "pillow top" mattresses. Had one 10 years or so, and it has been good.

YMMV, of course.

[garyphansen]

Evan: My wife has all of your medical problems to the tenth power, plus a few you can be thankful you do not have. She has been in a wheelchair full time for five years. About three years ago she could no longer operate a manual wheelchair and we got her a power wheelchair. She got a close cell menory foam mattress about six years ago, and I am sure she would be in much worse shape if she had not. The only bad thing about them, is they are exrta hot in hot weather, but I do not think that would be much of a problem in B.C.. Buy one, and I am sure it will be money well spent. Gary P. Hansen

[Evan]

Dang. Fell asleep in my chair here. :rolleyes:


Wes,

Be sure to consider the possibility of fibromyalgia, which I have. It is uncommon in men and frequently missed as a diagnosis because of that. I am always feeling cold and cold make the condition much worse. One of the key things about FMS is that it has many of the same effects that arthritis does but does not show up positive on any test for arthritis.

Jerry,

That is my concern, that the foam will tend to "trap" me in place. It is painful to move anyway and I don't want to have to fight with the bed. Oh, the last thing I need is more interesting dreams. A key "feature" of FMS is too much time dreaming and almost none in stage 4 restorative sleep.

Gary,

You might convince me to try it. If I don't like it I bet the dog will. :)

[Weston Bye]

Evan:
A few years ago the doctor considered FMS, however tests at the time showed up Epstein-Barr. Got over that just in time to build my house. Other than the nagging aches and pains, been passable since.

Since discovering this spondylitis stuff I have lurked a website where everyone spends their time bemoaning their fate. I'm not that bad, and even if I get that bad I wont let it get me down. Adapt...adapt...adapt.

[Carld]

We have a mattress that has a soft forming pillow top and it is comfortable but when you flip over on your other side the recess in the mattress don't fit your body and is uncomfortable for a while. It is better than the hard mattress we had for years though.

edit: it's a Restonic Comfort Master with a topper. The wifey found the paper work on it.

[speedsport]

I too have all the back problems, herniated discs, spinal arthritis, bone spurs, and scoliosis, docs say nothing can be done, bought a high dollar mattress and take a oxyocodone and a morphine pill before I go to bed and don't sleep worth a damm.

[Your Old Dog]

Oh Boy, you got me started!

Yea, we have slept on one for the past 7 years. We originally bought a mattress that was just a tad too firm. Someone told me about www.foambymail.com and I went and checked it out. I bought a 4" topper that had a 20 year garuentee and it's 100% as good as the day we got it.

I have sleep apnea. This means I can't toss and turn with a air mask on as it causes leaks. I can lay in one or two positions all night long and not wake up stiff.

When you first lay down on these mattress/pillows they feel like they arent doing anything. And then your body heat/pressure gets applied to the mattress and you can feel the mattress coming up to meet the unsurported parts of your body like the back of your knees and the back of your lower back.

I've heard of these things going for as little as $80.00. They just have to be Harbor Freight offerings. We are buying a new camping trailer and we are going to order another one at something like $300 + from the same company we got the first one from. We just orderd a memory foam mattress for our dog who has artheritus. We think he is doing better on the mattress as he is completely suspended and no pressure points.

I highly reccomend www.foambymail.com and don't forget the pillows. I can sleep on my side and my ear used to ache in the morning with a regular pillow but not with the memory foam pillows. (they have a weidrd shape but know when we travel we have one small suitcase filled with two pillows. Once you get used to sleeping on them you just can't go back)

Evan to get out of mine I sleep on left side of bed so I roll over to the left, reach my right leg over the side of the bed a bit and hook my heal to the side of the mattress and let it pull me to the edge of the bed. Your concern is correct, they are more difficult to get out of then a regular mattress but not once you catch on to using your legs. You have to learn to remove your socks by sitting at the end of the mattress by your feet! If you sit in the middle of the mattress you create a deep depression at the edge of the mattress and have a tendency to roll back out till the mattress recovers !!

By the way, to ship these they are put in plastic bags and the air sucked out of them. FoamByMail maintains that if left in there for more then 10 days they can be ruined. I'm not sure how the discount stores handle their mattress but I wouldn't want it if stored for a loong time in plastic. It took 24 hours for ours fully open up and it was not stored compacted but compated for shipment.

The one we have is 4" of the Pink Slow Recovery Memory foam topper for our existant firmer mattress and came it a really nice mattress ticing type of cover. I can't say enough good about them. I've heard they use them for old folks with bed sores almost like a mud (water) bed used on burn treatment patients.

Speedsport my buddy in California is on permanent disablity with back, shoulder and neck problems. I talked him into trying of these FoamByMail and he agrees he is sleeping better.

BTW............Nothing more then a very satisfied customer here.

[pcarpenter]

I had a memory foam pillow and couldn't stand it both due to the fact that you were sleeping on a hot, plastic pillow and because of the memory as you change positions. I felt like a tool put in the wrong compartment of one of those blow-molded plastic cases :rolleyes: That influenced me to try the Select Comfort bed as it will conform, but does not retain any particular shape. Additionally, the degree to which it conforms is completely user-controllable--you don't want too much firmness, but don't want to feel like you are in a hammock either. The air units are inside of what looks just like a regular pillow-top mattress that has a zipper top. They are a bit pricey, but not more so that some of the memory foam mattresses and come with an unconditional 90 night guarantee so you have an out.

My aunt and uncle had one and I got to try it out even before I ordered so I knew what I was getting into. It was pretty neat from the start, but it takes maybe a week of experimenting to figure out what works the best.

[Joel]

One of my best friends has Fibromyalgia and had a very difficult time sleeping. He saw a memory foam mattress on clearance and figured he would give it a shot. A few nights later, he told me the difference was night and day, and that now he can actually get some decent sleep.
In his case, it made a very significant improvement in his quality of life.

[John Stevenson]

My,
After reading some of the posts and complaints above one has to be very thankful of not having these problems.

When you only have alzheimer's you can't remember if you had a bad night or what ..............................:D

[QSIMDO]

Amazing how many suffer from poor sleep.

We tried the foam for about 3 weeks and couldn't be rid of it quick enough.
My wife was at the height of "the change" and the foam just made her perspire all the more.
I on the other hand am a rather densely packed little lad who sunk right to the bottom of the mattress and needed a ladder to climb out!

I'm intrigued and encouraged by the Select Comfort responses though.
A guy I work with has one and swears by it. His wife broke a hip and that is the only matress she can sleep on.

Pine boughs Evan.
Select the correct density every night and reap the additional benefits of aroma therapy! ;)

[JimH]

I too haveone of the Costco varieties. Although it has assed some comfort, it is just barely worth it, in my opinion.

One of the best nights sleep I have had was at a Radisson Inn, where the have the "Sleep by number" beds. The beds are expensive, so if interested, I'd suggest a night at the Radisson to try one out. Be sure to request a room with theat bed, as not all rooms, nor do all Radissons have them.

Jim

[Evan]

Rats. I was hoping for some sort of unequivocal consensus to emerge. Thanks for the replies so far but it looks like pretty close to a draw on the yeas and nays.

Any more comments out there?

[speedy]

Is medical cannabis available up your way Evan?
C Cookies and Milo for supper?

What about those magnetic underlays ( with woolrest of course )
http://www.magneticunderlays.co.nz/

http://www.biomag.co.nz/

[Evan]

Medical cannabis is available. I don't care for it much as it tends to induce tachycardia in me. I have idiosyncratic reactions to many drugs including caffeine. A cup or two of strong coffee puts me to sleep. A large part of FMS, maybe all of it, is due to very difficult to detect imbalances in neurotransmitters causing abnormal brain function, especially when sleeping.

As for magnetic underlays, I will just say that the placebo effect can be extremely powerful, but it never lasts.

[pcarpenter]

Oh no....now this is going to turn into a "divining rod" thread...what with the insertion of magnets and all.

A local guy who is apparently gullible, but not a shyster swears by the magnet therapy thing and even started selling the stuff. He showed me his elbow support thing with magnets that made his elbow better. He told me how the memory foam mattress pad with the magnets really helped his friend. How do people not get it? It ain't the magnets and the $1000 price tag on the pad that goes with them. Some dingbat mixes a little hocus pocus with some inexpensive item that does some real good, charges a fortune for it and claims that it was the hocus-pocus part that made all the difference. Sure...put a support sleeve on an injured elbow...it should help...magnets or no. Same with the nice mattress pad.

I did a little real research on magnet therapy after this nice older gentleman kept pushing them. There have been real scientific studies done and they clearly did not help. They do help with bone re-growth, however. I had a friend who ran into the back of a parked truck on the other side of a hill and was a mangled mess. The dr. had him using a thing he called his "bone stimulator":D It wrapped around his bicep where they were trying to get two disconnected pieces of bone to grow together.

PT Barnum was right

Paul

[speedy]

Hey, I`m not an advocate for magnetic hocus, never tried it myself.

In good Kiwi fashion. a friend of mine uses a home made set up composed of fridge magnetic strip in a towel that he uses to aleviate the pain and stiffness in a damaged shoulder. He put up with the pain and discomfort for some years then figured that he would try the megnetic thing but was not prepared to pay stupid money on something that he was dubious of.
He swears that it works for him. that is all I can say.

[Scatterplot]

I got a small memory foam topper for my bed but ended up taking it off just because I like firmer mattresses. Granted I don't have any back problems (thank goodness) but it was a little more comfortable.

I ended up cutting it though, making a section for my dormroom bed, and it made all the difference in the world.

Seems to me like a good regular mattress would be about as good as a memory foam, but it would beat out the crappy ones pretty badly.

[topct]

A brief excursion into googleland dealing with what you have tells me one thing.

Symptomatic medicine still lives. Unfortunately.

Treating of the symptom can work, like in cutting the rotten part out, but not always.

The real cure here, may be eliminating the cause?

Have you looked into macrobiotics?

[Evan]

I like firm mattresses too and we have a fairly recent very good quality foam mattress with a thin softer foam topper on my side. My wife sleeps on a lambs wool topper but I don't care for it (while sleeping).

The placebo effect is very real and the mind has a powerful influence over the body. The effect is usually short lived, no more than a few months normally. That is why long term studies are carried out on drugs, to sort out that effect.


A brief excursion into googleland dealing with what you have tells me one thing.

Symptomatic medicine still lives. Unfortunately.

That seems to be always the case with incurable conditions. It attracts scams, charlatans and well intentioned but misled people like flys to s**t.

I am very aware of my diet and the fine details of nutrition. I have gluten intolerance as well and must pay close attention to diet. I have to make a significant effort to keep my cholesterol levels high enough and I can't eat any common grains except some rices and corn. That rules out a macrobiotic diet.

[John Stevenson]

Don't poo poo this magnet therapy business.
Gert bought some from a local market and swears by them, that much so she advised me to get some.
I went on Ebay and bought some similar magnets but they don't suit me as we are poles apart...................



.

[Jim Hubbell]

I have a memory foam, from W'mart, which I do not care much about. The best sleep I have had lately was at the hosp. while I was getting my PM implant. The bed is self adjusting. Your every move is adjusted for. The small elec. motors may be heard readjusting after every toss or turn. Of course it adjusts head up or knees up as usual. It may be similar to the motel bed that was mentioned in a preceeding entry. Probably break the bank to buy one tho.
My son and his wife have an air/adjustable mattress which they both enjoy.
A good night sleep is priceless.

Jim

[topct]

I like firm mattresses too and we have a fairly recent very good quality foam mattress with a thin softer foam topper on my side. My wife sleeps on a lambs wool topper but I don't care for it (while sleeping).

The placebo effect is very real and the mind has a powerful influence over the body. The effect is usually short lived, no more than a few months normally. That is why long term studies are carried out on drugs, to sort out that effect.



That seems to be always the case with incurable conditions. It attracts scams, charlatans and well intentioned but misled people like flys to s**t.

I am very aware of my diet and the fine details of nutrition. I have gluten intolerance as well and must pay close attention to diet. I have to make a significant effort to keep my cholesterol levels high enough and I can't eat any common grains except some rices and corn. That rules out a macrobiotic diet.

If one was to consider their condition to be incurable, what difference is a mattress going to make?

Why do you have a gluten intolerance?

What is the cause of that of that symptom?

[J. Randall]

Evan, I don't have the fibro, but I do have a severe case of Ankylosing Spondylitis like Wes reffered to. The best thing I have found next to a high quality plush recliner is a good pillowtop mattress. I spent yrs. starting out in bed and ending up in the recliner, until all the fusion had pretty much run its course. The wife and I have been talking about trying the memory foam topper. Let us know how it works if you try one. James

[cmiller231]

Evan We just bought a memery foam mattress this past Dec., it fit perfectly in the water bed frame and it is 12" thick. It was what they call a # 5 as far as firmness which was too firm for the wife , she has constant back pain and needs a knee replacement so that makes the back worse,walking . So she ordered a 4" thick top memory foam and it is susposed to be a #4 but it is quite soft , you memitioned about having touble gettilng out? well. this is true with this #4 firmness.Now she says it is too soft . For me it is a lot better than the waterbed as my back bothers me from limping and not walking correctly due to parkinsons.I do feel pretty good in the am, normal amount of aches and pains for 61 yrs old.
So I would read up on this memory foam as to flirmness ratings . The 12 " one is actually layered with different foams in the middle .I don't know how i would handle returning one of these as it was in a roll about 2" in dia., quite heavy also. In closing i wish i would have looked into this select comfort that have been talked about in this thread. Chris

[Ernie]

Evan, Seems like most men suffer some sort of back problem. I injured mine about 30 years ago and it still sometimes bothers me. At the time I injured it, the back specialist told me to get an extra firm matress and to put it on a platform bed (or put a board under the matress) so as to keep it flat. He also said if I sleep on my back, to put a pillow under my knees to keep my back straight. Also, if I sleep on my side, to put a pillow between my knees to keep my back from twisting. Those things really helped. I tried one of those memory foam matresses and that made things worse. The fact that it supports the entire length of your back caused too much upward pressure at the lower back area causing swayback. 2 minutes on that test bed at the store started to cause lower back pain.
Ernie

[Evan]

If one was to consider their condition to be incurable, what difference is a mattress going to make?

Why do you have a gluten intolerance?

What is the cause of that of that symptom?

The primary cause of FMS symptoms is a lack of proper sleep. People with FMS show unusual brain wave activity while sleeping. Every time they begin to drift into stage 4 deep sleep it is soon interrupted by an abrupt shift to REM dreaming sleep. Stage four sleep seems to be necessary for the body to repair and rebuild itself. I recently took another O2/ heart rate test and my O2 levels never dropped below 90% in six hours but I came to nearly full alertness 26 times during that time. In large part that is due to pain from discomfort while sleeping. Anything that will help me sleep better will be of some use.

Gluten intolerance is an inability to digest gluten. If gluten isn't broken down in the gut it is toxic to the lining of the gut and kills the cells responsible for absorbing nutrients. You slowly starve to death.

The cause is unknown and the only treatment is to avoid gluten. It has a genetic component but that isn't the entire story. Generally, avoiding gluten means no wheat, barely, rye or oats. It also means avoiding any food that contains even a trace of gluten from those sources.

Gluten intolerance and Fibromyalgia seem to have a link. Each condition appears to predispose for the other.

There are also links to other neurotransmitter related conditions including OCD, schizophrenia and bipolar disorder. The strange thing about that is the link is to siblings that have those conditions. It doesn't usually occur together with FMS. One of my brothers is bipolar and the other is schizophrenic.

J.

My recliner is by far more comfortable to sleep in than the bed, but only for no more than a couple of hours.

[Willy]

Geez,I sure hope Fasttrack doesn't read this thread...he'll wonder what the heck he's doing hanging out with a bunch of broken down old geezers!:D

[ProGunOne]

Thank You Lord!!

[Swarf&Sparks]

I go along with cybor, I've been sleeping on a waterbed for 30+ years. I have assorted damage ranging from cervical spine, to a shattered leg (legacy of a car vs MC).
Before my hip replacement, waterbed was the only way to get a night's sleep.

[Your Old Dog]

I once did a story about these beds for burn treatment and spinal surgery centers. They were filled with mud from a specific oil well that didn't pan out in Texas. The mud had a specific gravity of 2. According to the makers, it had a very slow action unlike water beds and it had the ability to support the human body damn near like floating in water where a movement of the ankle cause the head to move around violently. I layed on that mattress when we done filming. I believe the "better quality" memory foam mattress are everybit as good as the medical mud beds. The mud bed was next to impossible to get out of without help. Our regular mattress would be a firmness of 8-9 on a scale to 10. The 4" pink memory foam mattress feels great in my opinion and it's not hot to me. I can't speak for the bargain basement $69 and $99 dollar wonders. My $380 foam topper is worth every penny to me.

[wirewrkr]

I don't know most of you guys on a first name basis yet, but I post once in awhile. Most of the time I feel intimidated by all your collective knowledge.
Now we're talkin' about something I have LOTS of experience with. NOT SLEEPING WELL! Sorry for the CAps but I am emotional about not sleeping, as I have been dealing with it for almost 20years. 19 years as an automechanic, always physical work, several severe motorbike accidents and untold other physical abuses over the years caused untold trauma on my lower back. When I quit wrenching in 1995 I was told I had pretty much ruined it and all that could be done was to maintain it.
Can't sleep for more than a couple of hours at atime, wake up from pain and whatever.
When I met my current wife, we moved in together a few months later and decided to get a new mattress to start things off right. We bought the Tempur-PEDIC mattress, spent the money, OUCH, but was not thoroughly wowed. SURE you can leave your wine glass on the bed while you're doing it, but so-what?
It IS better than most mattresses in the world but still isn't the answer to night time back pain. I still don't sleep through the night. It is better than most but I would not buy another one.
I had a water bed once that had cells in it that was pretty good, but wasn't worth the trouble if i wanted to move the sunofabitch in my room.
I stayed at a hotel in VEGAS once on a biz-trip, that had a real nice high-end Sealy mattress, I slept all night for the first time.
IF you're still considering a Tempur Pedic, don't be fooled by the TV ads, you can get them at the mattress store and it's alot cheaper than on The tube.

[Tinkerer]

I've had back surgery and have live with it for some time now. My old bed was well getting old... so the wife said lets get a foam bed for your back. Memory foam bed I found them hot liken to sleeping on a damp sponge. Yah you don't toss and turn cause your in a hole and can not. Had my back out of sorts in about three weeks so bad I was back to a cane. By the forth I had a new Serta firm pillow top and I'm pleased with it. Never again.

[halac]

The wife and I have tried several of the fore mentioned mattresses and /or accessories over the past dozen or so years.

We both have sleep apnea. She has a CPAP and I use a snore guard. To compound the problem I have had 3 surgeries to my shoulders. This equates to I shouldn't sleep on my back because it aggravates my SA, but sleeping on either side sometimes hurts my shoulders.

About May of 2006 we bought a Select Comfort bed. Best money we ever spent. Like others before me have said it takes awhile to get the correct setting. I personally change my number depending on what feels best that night. Sometimes I will set it to a lower number than I would normally use, then after I settle a bit into the bed I will re-inflate it up to conform to my shape.

Evan, good luck in your search for a good nights sleep.

[Evan]

I didn't expect this much response but it has been informative. I am pretty sure that my original suspicion that I wouldn't like a memory foam mattress is correct. I must change position frequently because the pain builds up so that I can't stay asleep. Then, moving is difficult because it causes more pain. Anything that makes it more difficult to change position is no go for me.

That said, we are going shopping tomorrow and might pick one up anyway. It does sound like it may help Janet as she has a herniated lumbar vertebrae. If we get one I will let you know how it works for us. I will be able to tell in one night. For me these days there is no getting used to something that makes me hurt more. I have zero adaptability to new stresses and the type of pain I have isn't responsive to pain killers as it involves a different part of the peripheral nervous system. The only thing that works on FMS pain is strong injected anesthetics.

[PTSideshow]

We had the select comfort,bed the expensive one. It sucked big time. We went to the local mall store for them. Tried them all and it is nothing but two old cavas air matresses in a cloth bag surrounded by foam. The box springs is blow molded plastic and hollow even with the six leg support frame it sagged and had to be replaced because of what look like thinner plastic in some areas toward the center of the sections must have been made early in the days run LOL dies not heated enough. They were replaced, the foam edging was replaced. and the bags seemed to need air all the time as the pump was coming on because the valves leak.
They keep giving us the schuck and jive till the warrenty ran out. After which we got rid of it.
I didn't make a week on it as I couldn't sleep on it. Even with only my wife sleeping on it it sagged at the foam middle section where she sleep all night. Between the bags. Her Doctor siad that it made he back problems worse, and added to the problems that kept on disability for six months. He did say that the people that see him and have the mattresses it runs about 50/50 love/hate.
I think if you are of a smaller stature, and weight. Not approaching what seems like normal now a days. If you get a good one it may work if your number is lower. And you have to remember they are paid endorser.
If you do get one make sure you get it back to them well before the time limit. because you will play phone tag.
:D

[Evan]

I am not interested in an air mattress or a water bed. Tried a water bed once, terrible. I like a flat sleeping surface and any slight deviation from flat is very noticable and uncomortable. We use an expensive foam mattress on a bed frame I built years ago that uses a very sturdy base frame with plywood sheets to hold the mattress. Vent holes in the plywood help to prevent condensation buildup. Doesn't squeak either. :)

[Sophiedoc]

As medical people we preached for years the benefits of a very firm mattress often suggesting plywood sheet to firm up the bedding.One of the benefits of the select comfort type is the adjustment feature,I do best with soft while wife likes extra firm(I know,I know)-To me a very interesting book is one by Dr John Sarno M.D. on the mind body connection.Certainly a good read for anyone even without aches and pains.

[lynnl]

As medical people we preached for years the benefits of a very firm mattress often suggesting plywood sheet to firm up the bedding.One of the benefits of the select comfort type is the adjustment feature,I do best with soft while wife likes extra firm(I know,I know)-To me a very interesting book is one by Dr John Sarno M.D. on the mind body connection.Certainly a good read for anyone even without aches and pains.

Sophiedoc, that (Dr John Sarno's ideas) is exactly what I have been advocating here on this forum for 4 or 5 years. I discovered his method in about 1997 or 8, and can attest to its validity.
After I had suffered for about 3 years with excruciating sciatic and back pain, my wife happened to hear about him while watching Rosie Odonnell's show (of all places!). She bought me the book "Healing Back Pain", and after spending about 7 - 10 days reading (studying and pondering actually) that book, and coming to accept the truth of it, my pain subsided just as abruptly as turning down a light with a dimmer switch.

For the next few months the pain would attempt to flare up again, but by employing Dr Sarno's recommended techniques I could turn it back off. The plain and simple truth is this: You CAN control pain with your thoughts!!!!!

Now here's the real interesting part: Along with controlling the back pain, I found that all my other nagging, lesser pains (neck stiffness, irritated/dry eyes, carpal tunnel-like pains, and others, went away too. AND... I started sleeping like a baby. I would sleep soundly til time to wake up, and awake fully refreshed and bright-eyed and bushy-tailed. Incidentally I had been using a CPAP prior to that, but now no longer needed it. I was now enjoying far better sleep than I'd ever gotten from the CPAP.

People, I'm not trying to sell something. I don't stand to gain anything here. But I think it's utterly foolish to reject this out-of-hand and not give it a try. It is essentially free, involving no medications, no special diets, no paraphernalia to buy, no trips to Dr. Office, no exercises, ...no nothing, except mental/emotional concentration and focus and an open mind and willingness to admit you've been wrong in your perception.

[Your Old Dog]

I used to think our group was just a bunch of misfits ! :D I now know I'm wrong. We're a bunch of aileing misfits!! Anybody out here really healthy that we can pick on? :D

Evan, don't forget you dont have to have one bed. Lots of folks in apartments get two singles and park them side by side and then bolt the frames together. They even sell strips for the middle. This would allow your wife to sleep on the superior SRF memory foam topper and for you to sleep on whatever you can fashion out of aluminum with the endless supply you seem to have ! :D And from the looks of your new mill, you should be able to do it quite accurately ! Good luck with your sleep, I know it can be a bear for some of us.

[Evan]

Two beds you say? No need to buy them, the one we have now is entirely wood. Two beds? I can fix that.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics/chainsaw.jpg

Did I mention that the bed is not my favorite place (for sleeping, anyway)?

[cmiller231]

Yeah! I would like to see this high precison bed also, I'am sure it would be an inspiration to a lot of us.Then get it published in HSM,might stir up some comments like the lawn edger dild a few yrs ago. Chris

[BillB]

I sleep on a Tempur foam mattress. It is, by far, the best mattress I've had since the waterbed years ago, and a lot easier to get out of than that was. Curiously, I tend to thrash about and also sleep hot, and it doesn't bother me on either count.

"I have to make a significant effort to keep my cholesterol levels high enough"

You had my sympathy up until that point. Have yourself a nice bacon souffle with Hollandaise while I go pop another Lipitor pill. 8(

BillB

[BadDog]

Wow, seems lots of sleep problems going around, and I have my share as well. In my case though, it's not from a disease or genetic quirk, unless stupidity can be counted and one or the other. When I was young, I must have had a very high tolerance for pain (so maybe that’s the deficiency?) because I did EVERYTHING you could do to get hurt. I rode dirt bikes since I was 6 when I got my first Honda 50 for Christmas, and flipped it over backwards 2 months later trying to “walk a wheely”. I broke my right hand in the 5th grade in a fight (so bad they had to pin it), got my jaw broken in another some years later. Over the years I also did rappelling, rock climbing, football, baseball, basketball, spelunking, motorcycle racing (on and off road) car racing (legal and illegal). I had numerous injuries in each including many broken bones, even though the docs tested them and said that my bones were actually stronger than average (All bone/blood/etc. tests have always resulted in saying there is nothing wrong).

The worst was one wreck where I cut my left leg OFF at the knee (they reattached it using artificial knee and one remaining bone knee to ankle with almost full use) along with dozens of other broken bones, hundreds of stitches, about half that many staples, along with an assortment of pins, rods and plates that are still with me today. That one left me in traction for a month and a wheel chair for over a year followed by very painful rehab, but the result exceeded everyone’s wildest hope and the doctor who’s research project I was (thank god for free medical care!) got to parade me around to show off his work. You would think that after surviving a few of these things, a person might start to put 2 and 2 together and figure out that this was not a good way to live. Not me...

Fast forward 20 years. I did figure out that there were better ways of having fun that living in a constant adrenaline rush. And things were pretty smooth for about 10 years. Now, I don’t know what’s happening. Either my sensitivity to pain is going way down, or it’s arthritis, or as some of the doctors have hypothesized, it may be a case of nerve damage causing hyper something or other that amounts to turning a minor irritant into major discomfort. Either way, it does not respond to anything other than strong narcotic pain killers which have been escalating steadily in strength over the last few years. Lesser medications keep things at a tolerable level during the day, as long as my mind can be otherwise active, but in the dark and quiet of the night, NOTHING works. If I keep my mind active enough to distract from the pain, reading or otherwise, I don’t sleep. If I relax and try to sleep, the pain dominates.

All that said, I follow this with interest. Many people have suggested I try one of several expensive beds including the “sleep number”, memory foam, and hospital beds. But in test drives at the store, I just don’t see any of them as helping much. After lying there some 10 minutes, clearing my thoughts, and trying to rest, the pain always becomes dominant and I can’t stand lying there. The best to minimize the pain seems to be the hospital type beds that allow me to incline the head with the knee elevated a bit. Fine for lying around reading, but problem there is that the mattresses are always VERY uncomfortable, and I can’t sleep on my back (perhaps a residual of 6 weeks in traction, flat on my back with both arms and both legs either suspended or restrained).

So I pop my first round of pills most every evening these days and hope for the best. If that does not make things tolerable, after an hour, I pop more. And as some of you may have noticed from some of my posts with time stamps like “3:00 a.m.”, that is also sometimes not enough, though the doctor says more cause other problems, and I already have liver function tests every 6 months to see if it’s damaged me... <sigh> If I can ever get to sleep, I’ve got a decent chance of an “adequate” nights rest, but if I move wrong or the stars don’t align, I get a sharp pain in the wee hours and that’s it for the night.

I give the history for reference to the causes of my discomfort, just in case some of the knowledgeable folks (medical or otherwise) might have suggestion beyond just a mattress. I wonder if Sarno's book would help with pain due to real physical damage?

[Evan]

There seems to be one major factor that is correlated with the eventual onset of fibromyalgia and that is serious physical trauma. Perhaps you should look into it if only to rule it out.

[Evan]

You had my sympathy up until that point. Have yourself a nice bacon souffle with Hollandaise while I go pop another Lipitor pill. 8(

I wasn't joking. I just had my cholesterol tested and it is at the very low end of normal and my ratio is 4.3 to 1. That's much better than it used to be 15 years ago when it was lower than a starving Biafran. I really do have to work at keeping it up. I usually have a snack in the evening of a large bowl of ice cream and I spike it up by pouring whipping cream over it.

Back in the 80s when I finally figured out that I had gluten intolerance I was down to 130 lbs. I'm 6'2". I'm now 175 to 180 but if I don't watch what I eat I start to lose weight. I have to make sure that I get enough fats.

[lynnl]

............
.........

Fast forward 20 years. .............................
................
..........
Either way, it does not respond to anything other than strong narcotic pain killers which have been escalating steadily in strength over the last few years. Lesser medications keep things at a tolerable level during the day, as long as my mind can be otherwise active, but in the dark and quiet of the night, NOTHING works. If I keep my mind active enough to distract from the pain, reading or otherwise, I don’t sleep. If I relax and try to sleep, the pain dominates.
..........
..........

I give the history for reference to the causes of my discomfort, just in case some of the knowledgeable folks (medical or otherwise) might have suggestion beyond just a mattress. I wonder if Sarno's book would help with pain due to real physical damage?

BadDog, Your last 2 or 3 sentences, in the text that I left in the quote above, offer some very valuable insight! Insight that is very much in line with Dr Sarno's model for these pain syndromes. The fact that your pain is diminished when you're mentally active highly suggests that it is not pain that is just permanently there, but rather it is being internally generated.

It is generally accepted that the vast majority of our mental and emotional activity is taking place at a level that we're not conscious of. i.e. our conscious mental activity is just the tip of the proverbial iceberg. We always have emotions boiling away underneath that we're not aware of, and generating physical distractions (pain/discomfort/etc.) is the mind's way of insuring that we don't dredge them up and relive them again.

People will say "Oh, my back (neck/knee/whatever) hurts all the time." Well the real truth is that it hurts 'all the time they are conscious of it.' Also, most people will acknowledge something like "...my pain eased up a bit." Now why did that happen? There's surely a reason. ...and that reason is that something has changed in their mental/emotional activity or state, that they're not conscious of. We all know that mental activity can almost instantaneously cause physical changes, to wit: tears in response to sad thoughts, or erections in response to erotic thoughts, or the stomach sensations in response to fear. Why would it not be likely that other changes such restricted blood flow, hormonal changes, etc., that can cause pain and discomfort, also occur?

And lastly I'll say this - the body has evolved with the ability to heal itself. Bones mend, horrible cuts heal up, painful burns eventually heal and stop hurting. So even tho it's human nature to assume the pain is related to a past injury, you really only know that there was an injury (past), and now there is pain (present). You do not know that one CAUSED the other.

[Luke55]

I'm also suffering from fibromyalgia take lots of medical druggs good foam mattress and lot of night machining do the job for me

[BadDog]

Thanks Evan, I'll ask the Doc about FM next time I go in...

lynnl, it's not so much that it does not hurt when mentally occupied. If I stop and let myself pay attention it's always within the same variable range depending on what I've been doing. It's more a case of "mind over matter" if you'll excuse the cliche'. When I'm active and mentally busy I can "burry" the discomfort much of the time and sort of ignore it, for lack of a better description. When REALLY focused on something that does not directly cause stabbing pain in itself, I can often get the dull ache completely out of my mind such that, without thinking, I move wrong or squat or any one of a hundred other things I know better than to do carelessly, and I’m then rewarded by the intensely painful reminder, sometimes looking up from the floor. So I while I am very well aware of the ability of the mind to mitigate pain, in my case, it takes active effort. So when the mental focus winds down while resting and drifting off to sleep, I loose that ability/distraction, and therein lies the problem.

[Evan]

I can distract myself from the medium level "background" pain that is always present. I cannot ignore the sharp stabbing and even excruciating pain that happens if I reach for something, twist a screwdriver a bit too hard or do any number of normal physical movements. Sometimes without any trace of warning a knee will buckle on the stairs.

Well, we just got back from shopping. Had a good time too. Got new winter boots at 75% off, another nice steel workbench with integrated lighting, drawers and a shelf, power bar and pegboard back for half price. Also picked up a twin 500 watt halogen work light on a stand for $30 cdn, perfect when I need to work in a cold garage on the shaper. :)

Also picked up a memory foam topper to try out tonight. I will let you know what my initial impression is tommorrow.

[Your Old Dog]

Baddog, sorry you're having some problems but if you don't mind, if we ever get together for a beer I want to drive ! :D

Evan, good luck with the topper, hope it works as well for you as for me and my buddy with the back/shoulder/neck deterioration. You'll find they don't work well for recreation ! :D :D

[Evan]

You'll find they don't work well for recreation !

Hmm. May have to put the lambs wool topper on the floor. :D

[cmiller231]

Evan :Hope you the best with the topper > after reading the posts last night i paid a little more attention to it .As i said i have the 12" then the 4" on top .I think the 4"is a bit too soft but it does seem support me evenly . But what is best a mattress supports my back evenly or one that is firm and makes me lay flat . My back pain goes away after i sit down or lay down. for 1-2 hr And as previously stated it is difficult to get out of.Need a rope tied to; the ceiling ! So the wilfe sleeps in a recliner ( memory foam too soft). I guess its a lot of money down the drain now Chris .

[Evan]

Initial impression: Bleah.

Went to bed a bit early at 10:00pm, took a while to get to sleep because it felt strange. I never have trouble falling asleep, just staying asleep. It wasn't very comortable. Nice and warm though. By 2:30 am I was hurting enough that I had to get up.

Wife slept like a log. I think she likes it. Mr. Foamy, meet Mr. Knife...

I'll give it another try tonight.

[cuemaker]

I dont have any opinions either way, except that i love a firm bed.

But I do think you should try it for more that a few days. I feel that sometimes the newness of something gets in the way completely understanding whats going on or could happen.

[Your Old Dog]

Initial impression: Bleah.

Wife slept like a log. I think she likes it. Mr. Foamy, meet Mr. Knife...

I'll give it another try tonight.

If you decide to slice and dice it don't forget a hardworking beardog might have a use for anything you don't need! Sorry to hear it's not working out for you. It took me a week to get used to mine. My birddog loves his!

http://www.raymondswan.com/dp/Ralff%20es%20TV.jpg

[BadDog]

I can distract myself from the medium level "background" pain that is always present. I cannot ignore the sharp stabbing and even excruciating pain that happens if I reach for something, twist a screwdriver a bit too hard or do any number of normal physical movements. Sometimes without any trace of warning a knee will buckle on the stairs.

This is exactly what I wast trying to describe. I didn't mean to imply I could ignore the sharp pains, which have also put me on the ground or left me gasping for something to hold onto. My arms pretty much always stay in the "background pain" area, it's my legs that frequently go into the "somebody PLEASE shoot me" range. The back comes and goes, but when it goes, I'm done for a while.

YOD: Naw, I'll drive, we'll get there MUCH faster, IF we get there... ;)

[Evan]

Yeah, Beardog really seems to like it. She usually goes to bed before we do and warms up my side of the bed since I usually stay up pretty late. Last night instead of curled up in a little ball she was stretched right out.

As I said earlier, I don't seem to adjust well anymore to physical changes. Anything that increases my physical stress level is a bad thing.

[QSIMDO]

We're on our 4th conventional mattress in 7 years and after the foam disappointment we thought at wits end as well.
The conventionals hammock where you sleep, stay high in the middle and the edges collapse.
&*$#%^#@!

However, I'd like to investigate latex foam.
I understand the latex has different characteristics than the space foam and one of the largest manufacturers is right here in CT.
The density and resilience of latex sounds better suited for the dynamics of human sleep than the material for cradling oneself for the rigors of space launch.

Though...there was a time when I was a younger man......ahem!

[Weston Bye]

Just discovered something new the other day. I can't swim anymore. Tread water, dog paddle, propel myself backwards by kicking my legs, I'm OK, but to reach forward and stroke with my arms hurts bad in the shoulders and back during the twisting that occurs when doing that forward stroke, whatever it is called. I signed up earlier for a community ed 'aquacize' class. Supposed to be good low-impact excersize. Fortunately, I don't have to swim, just excersize. Have had no adverse effects so far - just don't swim anymore. Back to the kiddie pool:(

[Evan]

QSIMDO,

Before spending any money on latex products (:)) make sure you don't have an allergy to latex. If you already have true allergies to anything then it isn't a good idea at all to expose yourself to latex on a regular basis.

[J. Randall]

Wes, if you do end up with a dx of AS, water exercise is one of the main things they will recommend. I never could swim, and don't have access to a pool any way so I went with a hot tub. I sure sleep a lot better after about a 20 minute soak at 103 degrees. James

[Evan]

Thanks James. You just reminded me of something I thought about doing a long time ago when this first began to bother me. For some reason I had completely forgotten about it. Heat really helps but I can't stand to sit in a tub of hot water. It overheats me too quickly. What I forgot is that I had thought about building a small sauna downstairs in the wood stove and heater room. That just got put near the top of the list of things to do. I do just fine with dry heat as I sweat easily.

[BadDog]

Ya know, we had a sauna when we lived near Seattle (King County near Woodenville for locals) and it did seem to help alot. My only problem is that I can't stand to just sit and do nothing. Even then, some 10 years back, letting myself get bored would let the discomfort become more intrusive. But as long as I had some problem at work, or some other thing to keep my mind occupied, it would really help if I could stand to spend 30 minutes or more in there. Hmmm...

[Evan]

Just need to figure out a sauna proof monitor and keyboard. A window would work for the monitor and keyboards aren't very heat sensitive. Hmmm.

[BadDog]

I like. This might have some promise...

[Yankee1]

Hello Evan,
We bought an Englander natural rubber mattress and we like it. Its firm and very large. I use down comforters on it and find if I'm too warm that I have to push it to the side or I won't fall asleep. When I do fall asleep getting cold wakes me up long enough to retrieve the down comforter.
My wife has to have the head of the bed 4" higher than the bottom because of a reflux condition (it works). I believe because of where we live the cold and dampness combined causes a lot of the discomfort.
I have problems with my knees and notice it early in the morning so I roll over on my stomach and with my knees close to the mattress they stop hurting. No I don't know why but they do. I'll be 74 in four days. My wife and
I are doing par for the course I believe.
Evan, have you ever thought of learning self hypnosis. It does work and can be used on ones self for beneficial effect. I studied it for use in competitive shooting. Well I hope you find a satisfactory solution.
Regards
Chuck

[TECHSHOP]

You guys have pretty much talked this thing out, so I don't have much to add. But the adverts at the top of the page are downright scary!

I don't have very many (comparatively) injuries, but have "high mileage" wear and tear (human fork lift, moving target, etc.). I used to work (physical) about 15 hours a day, travel to/from work about 3 hours a day, and sleep about four. After the last overseas go around, I work less, travel less, and usually sleep more. I never owned one of those fancy matress, but one of my brothers did. And everything I "thought" could be wrong was wrong for him and his wife. I'll sleep on my steel bed with steel coils, and once I MIGed the corners, it hasn't "collapsed" when used for rec.

[Evan]

Well, second night was much better than the first. I actually slept for most of six hours and only briefly considered getting up at 3:00 am. Managed to get back to sleep until 5:00 which is about the most I ever manage. So, I'd say that's about even to BMF (Before Memory Foam) so far. I don't feel quite as ruined as usual on waking this morning which is more important. That could easily be coincidence as my condition has it's bad and less bad days (there are no good days, physically). I'm going to give it another night or two depending on how Janet is feeling when she gets up.

This thread has been very enlightening and I thank everyone for their responses. I am especially pleased about having my memory jogged about the sauna idea. A combination sauna and SAD light treatment room complete with computer for diversion sounds like an excellent idea. If I get any flack from anyone in an online debate while using it I'll just threaten to install a webcam. :D


Chuck,

Hypnosis doesn't work for me. I cannot be hypnotized. We have been sleeping with separate down comorters for many years. It is the only way to sleep and eliminates cover stealing. We recently bought new synthetic fill comforters as the old ones needed replacement and may have been contributing to allergy problems.

[J. Randall]

Evan, glad it jogged your memory. I have never had the opportunity to try a sauna, but I would like to. If you decide to build one be sure and document it for the group, if I could try one a like it I might want one to. James

[Peter S]

The best sleep I have had lately was at the hosp. while I was getting my PM implant.

Jim, I like the PM forum too, but this sounds like a step too far for me! It wouldn't help me to sleep either!

[Alistair Hosie]

poles apart try gluing some to your wallet to keep the missus hands out your ludship.:DAlistair

[Locksmith]

Evan,
I was hit by a car when I was 4; car rolled down the hill and caught my hip between the wheel and the curb. At 14, the hip bone started slipping out of the socket.
I've always had lower back problems because my pelvis is slightly off level. Orthotics in my shoes fixed the lower back problems and a Tempurpedic mattress stopped the tightness from tossing and turning.
I tried a mattress topper and found that it did very little. The mattress was the answer for me. If you go to a bedding chain store, just keep "thinking about it" and the price will drop somewhat. Buy the pillow, too.

[Evan]

Unfortunately nothing in the way of a bed will address the real problem in that I cannot fall into deep sleep, even if I had no pain. My wife is finding the topper is helping her back and it is warmer too, which is a plus for both of us. It hasn't made any significant difference to me but that isn't suprising. We will keep it on the bed as it seems to be helping Janet.

[topct]

Thomas Edison displayed what would be considered an abnormal sleep pattern.

He would take several "dozings" thoughout his day. That is all.

It seemed to disturb everyone but him. He obviously accepted it. For him it was a gift.

I have no sleep problems. I sleep like a baby. Complete with the drool.

If it were possible I'd make you a little trade.

[Evan]

If it were possible I'd make you a little trade.

Careful what you wish for. Deep sleep, aka stage 4 sleep, is when the body repairs all the minor wear and tear that accumulates. I don't get enough of that, perhaps less than 15 minutes in a night. It is thought to be the major cause of FMS symptoms. Yes, there are some side benefits as far as how my brain seems to work sometimes but it isn't worth it. My father has always slept in the same way, never more than a few hours at a time, but he doesn't seem to have the FMS problems so he must be getting just enough stage 4 sleep.

Every morning when I get up I feel as though I fell down the stairs the night before. I generally only stay in bed for 4 or five hours. It takes a couple of hours to recover from the night's "rest". Then I take up to several naps during the day, if possible.

[jim davies]

Bad Dog's story triggered a memory of dealing with my father's pain and the complexity of nerve damage. He was caught in a bunch of logs that were inadvertently set free while he was in the wrong place way back when they used to put logs in the river in spring to get them to the mill. Big long drawn out convelescance at the end of which he had shooting pains in one leg that came about every hour or two, day or night. He was no cry baby but the pain would damn near double him up in agony. This was one of my earliest memories of him.

One day when I was in my early 30's I was at the laundromat with wife #1 and being bored I was rummaging through the old books and magazines that show up in such places. Happened on an article about a new medical procedure that sounded somewhat connected with what Dad was putting up with. Long story boils down to him getting the procedure done. They bored a hole in the cranium and set a wire probe into the brain. He was only under local anasthetic for this as the brain has no ability to feel pain and they needed his feedback as to what he was sensing as they probed around [pretty interesting what some sensations were...] Anyway at the end of this they attached a small thingy that looked like a pacemaker but to the outside of his chest and when he felt the pain coming, he just gave a little elecrical jolt [he felt nothing] from this device and the pain went away. First time in around 30 years he had no pain.

After a few years the pain started returning and what had happened was the brain transferred the pain sensing ability to the other hemisphere. The Dr wanted him to have a probe installed in the other hemisphere but Mom said no. That was the end of that.

Anyway, the pain was from his leg but the real problem was spinal damage from the accident, so the moral of the story is that pain may not be from the area you think it is from. The second moral is that some debilitating pain can be shut off in the brain.

This was all leading edge stuff 25 years ago, so it must be pretty commonly available now. I will never forget just how immediate and total was the relief from pain that Dad described.

I do know, having seen the whole process through with him, that I would definately do it if I was in the same situation.

[Malc-Y]

Yesterday we had a new bed and memoryfoam mattress delivered, got up this morning after the best nights sleep I've had for a long time.

Malc :)

[Peter S]

Evan, have you tried taking sleeping pills, eg Imovane or similar? Most people think it is bad to take such medication, but only because they don't realise the alternative is even worse (ie not being able to sleep). My apologies if this obvious suggestion has already been discussed.

[Evan]

Jim,

In a way you aren't far from the mark. They have learned a lot about FMS and the pain seems to be, in part, an alteration in how the brain detects and interprets sensory signals. Ordinary pain killers have little effect as they operate only on the pain sensing system but do not affect sense of touch. It appears that what should be normal signals that indicate muscle and tendon stretching and position are being interpreted as pain, throughout the body. They don't know how or why but there is an average 4 times higher level in the spinal fluid of a body chemical called "substance P", as in Pain. It is usually found in those levels only in people with severe painful trauma such as burns.

There are many other tiny details that seem to be different from normal and not all of them are directly related to pain sensing. The muscles don't process lactic acid correctly resulting in severe exercise intolerance and pain. It is thought possible that continuous "micro trauma" to the musculoseletal system results in the production of excess substance P that then alters the perception of pain. This micro trauma isn't adequately repaired due to lack of deep sleep.

The root cause seems to be the inability to fall into deep sleep. As soon as that happens in FMS the brain starts to produce abnormal brain waves characteristic of dreaming sleep and stage 4 sleep is interrupted.

Peter,

Sleeping pills all have one thing in common, they do not induce stage 4 sleep brain waves even though they knock you out. There is one exception to this, the drug Gamma-aminobutyric acid, aka GABA. It's the infamous date rape drug and because of that it is highly restricted in availability. It's the one drug that seems to be of actual use in treating the sleep problems in FMS and it isn't legally available in Canada. In the US it is more tightly controlled than any other available drug and to prevent misuse is priced at astronomical levels. The doctor has to jump through more hoops than a circus animal to get it for a patient and it costs $500 a month even though it can be made for a couple of bucks a gallon.

I don't mind taking medications if they help and don't make me stupid or kill me but few medications do any good at all in FMS. The one common factor is that FMS seems to be nearly always associated with depleted levels of brain serotonin so I take a special type of antidepressant. Normal antidepressants don't work well since the type of depression found with FMS isn't the same as clinical depression. Unfortunately it doesn't help with sleep or pain.

[BadDog]

Sleeping pills all have one thing in common, they do not induce stage 4 sleep brain waves even though they knock you out. There is one exception to this, the drug Gamma-aminobutyric acid, aka GABA. It's the infamous date rape drug and because of that it is highly restricted in availability. It's the one drug that seems to be of actual use in treating the sleep problems in FMS and it isn't legally available in Canada. In the US it is more tightly controlled than any other available drug and to prevent misuse is priced at astronomical levels. The doctor has to jump through more hoops than a circus animal to get it for a patient and it costs $500 a month even though it can be made for a couple of bucks a gallon.


And yet again, the net effect is that those who need it can't get it or suffer for it if they do. But it's apparently as easily acquired as Marijuana on college campuses considering all the reports on it's “date rape” abuse. Add to that the medical of MJ vs it’s legal alternatives and all the other nonsense, and we can only surmise that political humanity is utterly insane… And of course there are the conspiracy theories that do nothing to change the resulting verdict on modern culture.

[lynnl]

The root cause seems to be the inability to fall into deep sleep. As soon as that happens in FMS the brain starts to produce abnormal brain waves characteristic of dreaming sleep and stage 4 sleep is interrupted.

.

I submit that inability to fall into deep sleep is NOT a root cause. That too is a symptom.

[Evan]

If you monitor people's brainwaves while they are sleeping and wake them up whenever they start to enter stage 4 sleep they develop the symptoms of FMS within a week. When they are allowed to sleep normally they recover.

The underlying cause seems to be a complex and very subtle imbalance of neurotransmitters in the brain, for reasons unknown. As I said before, there are some links to other similar disorders in siblings such as OCD, Bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. It is no longer thought to be a psychiatric disorder as once was thought. Very recently a group has been able to distinguish common chemical markers that are able to distinguish people with FMS from people without it.

There is a lot we don't know about the brain. Even something as basic as the levels of serotonin cannot be measured as yet. It must be inferred from eliminated metabolites. Some of the chemical abnormalities don't seem related to neurotransmitters though including the apparently faulty muscle metabolism.

FMS also has a fairly strong genetic heritable component which rules out purely psychiatric causes.

[lynnl]

quote:
If you monitor people's brainwaves while they are sleeping and wake them up whenever they start to enter stage 4 sleep they develop the symptoms of FMS within a week. When they are allowed to sleep normally they recover.
endqoute

Well in that case we would say the root cause is the researcher who is waking them up.

Now... in the case of someone who is not being externally awakened, obviously the ROOT cause is whatever (at the most basic level) is disrupting the natural tendency to drift on down into deep sleep. And since it isn't external, it must be internal.

And what I contend, and what I've found to be the case in my life, is that it is mental/emotional activity that's occuring usually below the level of consciousness. In other words: tension or stress. And with understanding and mental effort it can be overcome.

Do you grind your teeth at night? Are they ground really flat on the ends?

[Locksmith]

Evan,
I haven't read the entire thread, so bear with me...
Something that helped me was a self hypnosis/relaxation tape I bought years ago. Have you tried that?

[Evan]

And what I contend, and what I've found to be the case in my life, is that it is mental/emotional activity that's occuring usually below the level of consciousness. In other words: tension or stress. And with understanding and mental effort it can be overcome.

Tension and stress are not inherited conditions. Although there may be environmental and behavior factors they are not the sole cause. If the problem is caused by genetic differences that result in a different balance of neurotransmitters then even if tension and stress appear to exist they may well be a symptom of biochemical imbalance rather than a cause.

I don't grind my teeth, I do clench my jaws though. It keeps the flies out.