PDA

View Full Version : OT:wind power



Elninio
02-25-2007, 09:29 PM
which design of a wind propeller will be the most efficient for a windmill experiencing winds of 18-20 km/h?

for that matter, what is the most efficient wind mill in the world ? :D

Evan
02-25-2007, 10:34 PM
what is the most efficient wind mill in the world

Usually the biggest one.

barts
02-26-2007, 12:00 AM
The question of efficiency is a bit tricky; since one does not pay for
the amount of input energy a simpler, slightly less efficient design that is cheaper to scale up to compensate may be a more cost effective design than the ultimate in efficiency in terms of watts/swept area.

Commercial wind energy plants are basically all three-bladed horizontal axis wind turbines now, I think. As to what airfoil shape is best, I don't know. In
large sizes, the engineering issues are significant - handling storms, vibration from blades shaded by the mast, etc.

- Bart

Evan
02-26-2007, 12:07 AM
Since there are no direct energy input costs the calculation of efficiency is simply the ROI, or return on investment. That is directly related to how well the windmill produces power as well as the economic and environmental harm mitigation cost of building it. Bigger windmills tend to have a better ROI.

darryl
02-26-2007, 12:48 AM
There might be a proper choice of airfoil if there are certain restraints given, such as how large can it be, or how large do you want it to be, and how much power do you want it to produce.

I read an article once that showed 13 different designs. Some were easier for a DIY'er to make, and most were strong in some particular aspect of wind power, such as survival in a storm, ease of maintenance, safety, low noise and/or vibration level, etc.

One type had no moving parts at all, except for a small water pump.

Evan
02-26-2007, 01:38 AM
High aspect ratio variable pitch with progressive pitch from root to tip are the best. There are a number of suitable low speed airfoils that will give reasonable performance at 18 mph and up. The largest determining factor will be blade construction type as that will determine the minimum requirement for blade cross section to give it sufficient strength. The best blades are made from laminated epoxy graphite cloth. This can be done at home by using a foam core. You can easily cut foam cores with a progressive pitch profile using a hot wire cutter. I used to cut model aircraft wings including swept tapered airfoils with progressive pitch change and variable thickness using my hot wire cutter.

An airfoil that allows for a high strength aluminum spar will make for a very strong and easy to mount blade. In general the bigger you build it the better your ROI. Regardless of the size, if you actually plan to use the power you will have fixed expenses in the form of inverters, batteries and various controller and monitoring equipment as well as the structure and generator itself. It doesn't cost much more to scale up the unit as much as possible and the power production goes up as the approximate square of the diameter of the blades.

Very suitable thin wall ultra strong 7075-T651 aluminum tubing is readily available in the form of swimming pool skimmer handles. Graphite cloth and epoxy can be purchased from stunt kite suppliers.

As for airfoils, many of the airfoils developed through extensive testing of sailplanes are very adaptable for use in wind turbines.

See here: http://www.ae.uiuc.edu/m-selig/ads.html

dp
02-26-2007, 01:48 AM
There are inefficiencies caused by advancing/receding blade technology (Darrieus machine) vs axial sails as in modern (and not so modern) wind generators. The same asymetries that plague helicopters also plague vertical axis generators. Axial sails also are less affected by wind speed variations as a function of elevation as each blade can be twisted to optimize it's angle of attack into the wind throughout the cycle. I'd be surprised if this is actually done, but it's an option.

The metric is watts generated per square foot of land for a given wind speed. Land being the difficult part to acquire. Once you achieve the ability to create more power than you need the rest is gravy.

It's hard to beat axial sails, especially given the inherent ability of a radial rotating mass to resisting flex, and the ease with which they can be immobilized to weather a storm. Helicopters again being a good example.

The Japanese have done some interesting experiments with very tall vortex towers where a vertical rotor is encased in a cleverly designed slotted shroud that is the rough equivalent of a driven ducted fan. Pretty cool stuff.

Your Old Dog
02-26-2007, 06:03 AM
The metric is watts generated per square foot of land for a given wind speed. Land being the difficult part to acquire.

Not in Wyoming County New York. We're going to give it to windmill companys and pollute our view of hill tops with hundreds of them so our country can save the world, allow the power companys to get federal dollars and sell the power to other communities.

Did I mention that all the town politicians either own land or have family members who do who will sell/lease to the power company?

Dawai
02-26-2007, 09:07 AM
YOD:

Listen to yourself friend... would you rather have a view or have electricity?

Same thing is said about rivers and hydroelectric power, yet they, with the good they do in flood control help humanity.

Same thing for power, do hospitals or schools run on good intentions? No they have power lines.

Same for people who like to eat chicken, but would never kill a chicken, pluck it, gut it, and fry it. THEY can't stand the sight. They just like to eat chicken.

Dawai
02-26-2007, 12:05 PM
WHY>>>???

Why do all tall buildings not include a chimney for wind-and or thermal rise power generation? THAT is the easiest to control type generator, you just shut off the intake to slow the turbine. Air conditioners run in the glass buildings I have worked in the winter, they run heat on the other side?? WHY?? Ever seen the electric-light conductive glass? why is it not used more? I could really love playing with some solar collectors using that stuff.

WHY do all tall buildings not include a cell tower into thier structure?

WHY do we all feel it is not "OUR" responsibility for our earth? (okay I am part indian) I am no tree hugger, but things could be done a little differently.

I remember seeing a generator made from a front wheel drive hub, a hydraulic pump and some home made feathering blades... can anybody refresh my memory and point it out?

Evan
02-26-2007, 12:52 PM
Air conditioners run in the glass buildings I have worked in the winter, they run heat on the other side?? WHY??

Simple answer to that sort of question. Large power consumers don't pay by the kilowatt. They are demand metered and they pay according to the maximum load they ever draw. As long as their load is below the maximum they normally use the power is more or less "free".

Forrest Addy
02-26-2007, 01:36 PM
I seem to recall someone built a last forever windmill out of a WW II bomber propellor complete with pitch control and feathering.

Funny thing. Most folks want to generate electricity with a small home widndmill when the largest requirement for home energy is heat. Why they don't install an water churn they can clutch in for those cold nights I'll never know.

PTSideshow
02-26-2007, 04:40 PM
http://www.homepower.com/

Mcgyver
02-26-2007, 07:43 PM
Simple answer to that sort of question. Large power consumers don't pay by the kilowatt. They are demand metered and they pay according to the maximum load they ever draw. As long as their load is below the maximum they normally use the power is more or less "free".

?? not in glass office buildings that i've seen - there can be variable rates based on time of day, but they pay by the kilowatt. Where i've heard of that is more with very large industrial consumers, but these co's usually have their own energy traders and buy via futures.

most if not all major office tenants will be separately metered, sometimes small ones will pay a pro rata rate. one of the problems is that these are all net leases so the only motivation for the landlord to do capital improvements is if it lowers operating costs soooo much that it changes his competitive position in the market, obvious $0.01 psf isn't going to do it. newer buildings are to ASHRAE which I'm told is to a high standard. The energy standard to which buildings are built ultimately is determined the same as any other energy consumption, payback. no one's going to spend a million up front to save $1000 a year - one benefit to higher energy.

I don't know the circumstance to which you refer, but office towers generally need cooling year round, people, computers, solar etc. it gets trickier because you can have some parts on the floorplate that need cooling while others need heating - heat by the curtain wall to stop the cold air falling off it when there is a net cooling requirement for the floor. I don't know what the solution to that is, but figure there are engineering challenges - the people who design this stuff are neither idiots or intent on wrecking the planet.

what did you see that makes you think its air conditioning? small buildings usually turn the AC off for the winter whereas large ones circulate to a chiller on the roof, outside temp would determine whether the chiller was us a compressor or just the outside air.

on the wind power, I did some work with a project a couple of years ago. never happened unfortunately. the economics are driven by amount of wind, capital cost, cost of capital and the price/kilowatt on the power purchase agreement. In Ontario, two years , electricity was around $.05 kwh and the ontario government would sign 20 year PPA at around $0.10/kwh. sounds like a money looser, but that $0.10 more or less stays $0.10 for 20 years whereas the spot rate rises. Problem is, it is really really hard to find sites with right wind speed, steadiness and lack of shear. There are maps online somewhere that show what parts of NA are best suited.

Evan
02-26-2007, 08:54 PM
Demand metering is very common here, even for schools and the farmer down the road. Perhaps it is because the power is hydroelectric so the main factor is maximum demand which is the most important determiner of required system capacity. Gravity doesn't cost anything.

Dawai
02-26-2007, 09:09 PM
Down here, and everywhere else I have worked, there is a power factor meter and a kilowatt meter.

Surges are hard on generating equipment. Companies pay for it.. A lot less 200hp across the line starters since they started that here. On Monday morning, lights would flash as the plants started thier high horsepower extractors all at once. I went around putting in westinghouse vectrol soft starts for years. WHOO HOO. Before that it was pneumatic timed wye-delta starters with autotransformers inline. Before that, it was manual lever operated wye delta switches. NOW them, they'd blow all to hell leaving a handle in your hand and nothing else. I love technology.

Lots of the high rise buildings I have worked in, yes, air conditioning ran on one side and heat on the other. Seems a loss to me. Of course, the building constructor did not pay the bills, the tenants did.

Seems somebody needs incentives to produce viable alternatives to wasting power, everyone lives in a HUGE house. Without my wife, I'd do quite well in a 400sq foot home. I lived in a travel trailer for a few years thou. I think Darin calls them wood waster homes.. too damn large to support or heat.

JimB
02-26-2007, 09:18 PM
David, Sounds like heat pipes, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pipe

This originally started in the space program to transfer heat from the hot side to the cold side of a space vehicle. Also used in HVAC a few years ago. Don't know where the technology is now. Jim

J. R. Williams
02-26-2007, 09:32 PM
Evan;
The large power consumers PAY for all the electricity by the KWH and the rate will be set higher when you exceed your normal demand. This higher rate stays in place for the next Eleven Months... I supervised a large facility's utility operation and we had to very closely watch the peak loading during the Summer months. At that time, about 20 years ago, I used to see a monthly bill of around $500K . Nothing is free from the big power companies.

JRW

Evan
02-26-2007, 09:34 PM
The heat pipe was patented in 1944, well before the space program.

Gaugler, R. S., “Heat Transfer Device”, U. S. Patent 2,350,348

Evan
02-26-2007, 09:43 PM
JRW,

See here:

http://www.bchydro.com/policies/rates/rates3559.html

For many customers, especially ones with high but infrequent peak loads, the demand charge is the major portion of the bill. It applies to any customer with a demand greater than 35kw.

JimB
02-26-2007, 09:46 PM
Evan, Patent ok, but used? Jim

In 1944, Gaugler /1/ patented a lightweight heat transfer device which was essentially the present heat pipe. However, the technology of that period presented no clear need for such a device and it lay dormant for two decades. The idea was resurrected in connection with the space program, first as a suggestion by Trefethen /2/ in 1962 and then form a patent application by Wyatt in 1963. It was not until Grover and his co-workers /3/ of the Los Alamos Scientific Laboratory rediscovered the concept in late 1963 and built prototypes that the impetus was provided to this technology. Grover also coined the name “heat pipe” and stated, “Within certain limitations on the manner of use, a heat pipe may be regarded as a synergistic engineering structure which is equivalent to a material having a thermal conductivity greatly exceeding that of any known metal”.

Evan
02-26-2007, 09:54 PM
The reason I looked that up is because I vaugely recall similar technology being used in steam applications much earlier. I am still trying to recall where.

J Tiers
02-26-2007, 11:01 PM
The wind generators I have seen up close have fairly simple blades.... they were older, 30 foot blade circle units. A very little "wash out" to the ends of the blade. Blade is wider near center, and narrower at tip. Three blades for the ones I have seen.

Three also for the 80+ foot ones I see on 39 North in Illinois.

Don't be like Ted Kennedy, he didn't like the view either.....


I think Darin calls them wood waster homes.. too damn large to support or heat.

COOL...... That's what we call them up here too..... Big "great rooms" 25 feet high to the peak..... too big for me, I don't want to change the bulbs up there, nothing to attach the ladder to, and too high for a pole.

A PAR puts a largish dent in your floor if it falls that far. DAMHIKT, but I don't own such a house..... ugh....

Dawai
02-27-2007, 08:53 AM
I suggested to my wife we move back into the "small" end of the house. OUR electrical bills were never over $100 a month. (electric heat)

Divorce was not mentioned, but was implied.

Seems we are a fat, lazy, accustomed to excessive behaviour race of Americans.
"Drive that SUV on down the road lil 90 pound girl with the hair POOFED up on your head, three and a half tons of vehicle to tote 90lbs.. ALL the luxury in the world huh?" Keeping up with the JONES...

A stairway in a high rise, when they prop the doors open? it is against fire codes, but... it does move air.. A simple fan to access that lost energy and away you go.. even if you only made heat-wattage, did not try to make 60 cycle power, it would save someone money.

BY the way, I had a water wheel on one piece of property, it had a dc motor/generator, it was tied through a switch into a heating element, it never glowed red, but gave off heat. I envisioned a large stone table to mount it to.. let the warm table heat the house somewhat.

J Tiers
02-27-2007, 01:22 PM
The Arabs and Persians (Iranians, to you) had a scheme..... it was in Scientific American years ago...

A chimney, and an area of "checkerwork" in a buried airway.....

In teh day, the air in the chimney was heated by the sun on the chimney and rose, drawing air in thru the "checkerwork" which cooled it.

At night, the still-hot chimney pulls air in, thru the warmed checkerwork, which warms up the colder night air which gradually cools it down for the next day's cooling job.

A good zero-energy system for the desert.

We don't need no stinkin 50 HP A/C unit.

Alistair Hosie
02-27-2007, 05:08 PM
I agree with Dave there are al ot of wind farms coming to scotland and some people say what about the scenery well what about the country when you have nuclear thats a much bigger eyesore and danger to me when the cost the roi the should add in the cost of dismantling a nuclear site that costs twenty times ++++ the cost of building it and running it when you add this often hidden charge nuclear is not cheap.As to me I would seriously have a wind tower in my back garden thats a fact Alistair

Evan
02-27-2007, 05:45 PM
As to me I would seriously have a wind tower in my back garden thats a fact
SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...
SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...
SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...
SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...
SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...
SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...
SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...
SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...
SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...
SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...
SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...SWOOSH...
SWOOSH............etc

LarryinLV
02-27-2007, 07:18 PM
Wind farms and solar generating plants will be the next big environmental clean up in the near future.

Thousands of acres of wind towers are abandoned as they fail because developers built them for the money and the tax breaks; not out of the kindness of their hearts. The speculater builds it, takes their profit and tax break windfalls, and turns them over to the local power company and walks away. The power output generally does not cover the maintenance costs in the long term.

Thousands of non-operating turbines and acres of solar cells litter the deserts of southern California rotting and rusting away.

And yes, what was once beautiful countryside is now an eyesore.

A.K. Boomer
02-27-2007, 07:40 PM
How many of you blokes have been through Adair Iowa? thats a pretty big one,

I just read this on my half gallon jug of horizon organic milk this morning and thought it fits the topic;


We make our products using 100% clean wind energy, which eliminates 18,000 tons of polluting greenhouse gas emissions each year, To date our wind energy purchase is the environmental equilvalent of planting 9,000 acres of tree's...
Not to mention the taste, Yuuuummm.

Evan
02-27-2007, 07:46 PM
A few questions:

How do they know the electron fields they are buying came from wind power?

How do you know that your milk is "organic", whatever that is?

How is synthetic milk made?

A.K. Boomer
02-27-2007, 07:51 PM
I dont know Evan geesus krist, cant you just enjoy the moment?

How do you know the milk your drinking didnt come from a retarded Cow?

some questions you just dont ask...

Dawai
02-27-2007, 07:51 PM
J: DO you have a link for the arab cooling=heating system?

Evan, NO.. there should be easier methods.. YOU and others just have not invented them yet. Like a noisy sail there is ways to quiet them.

The chimney method? yeah.. Imagine if edison had installed a generating plant on every city block. How noisy would that have been?

IT is a fact, our electrical generating capacity has not increased as demand has.

Stretch a piece of old string too tight? see what happens.

WHY is wind power not being used to pump water like Raccoon mountain does with electricity? The dutch have been doing it for years.

Mcgyver
02-27-2007, 07:57 PM
developers built them for the money and the tax breaks; not out of the kindness of their hearts.

so who else do you know who gets out of bed and goes to work or makes an investment for anything but their betterment? I mean you are make it sound like its a character fault. assuming the things we want and need do just magically appear you can motivate by the carrot or the stick, that is free enterprise or communism, do things for your own betterment/greed or because you are forced to.

if it doesn't work out as you described, its the model that is seriously flawed...but your example doesn't make sense unless there are unbelievably incompetent utilities buying these garbage projects. IF that's the case lament these idiotic utilities squandering money. who is this speculator? someone who built and then flipped it? what are you saying, that the speculator committed fraud, or that the utility is just stupid?

power generation does not lend itself well to speculation. The capex is very high and yields are very low. Someone with $100m to speculate with, isn't likely to do it with a windfarm turn that $100m into $110m. Take the capital cost of the turbine (they are expensive), installation and hook up then from the PPA revenue deduct the annual debt service and amortization of the capital .....so far as i can see its just not lucrative enough to attract speculators. if the utility ends up taking it over because its such a mess, money's been lost before it came to that.

the way i've seen it work is the the gov or utility signs a 20 year PPA to buy power at a set price. if the tubines are garbage, the site has inadequate generating capability, the maintenance cost to high etc etc its the owners problem or if it goes badly the lender's problem. its only the utilities problem if they purchase the project and in which case they are the ones demonstrating incompetence if they paid too much or bought junk

Evan
02-27-2007, 08:01 PM
Imagine if edison had installed a generating plant on every city block. How noisy would that have been?
Funny you should mention that. When I worked for Xerox in the 70s they had their offices and training center in the Westcoast Natural Gas Transmission building. Utilities tend to be very paranoid about relying on other utilities to operate their systems. Westcoast had two natural gas turbines in the basement that supplied the entire 20 story building. The building was also built to withstand a magnitude 9 earthquake.

You couldn't hear the turbines at all, not even in the basement parking garage.

Dawai
02-27-2007, 08:09 PM
Tri county Hospital, has switches to change two different transmission lines, and a generator. YOU do not want to be in the same area when that big diesel cranks up.. (anyways, that is paranoia) BUT so many people rely on it.


THE GE gas-steam turbines installed all over the south, whine like a jet engine. It depends upon the engineer over the job for sure.. Each turbine is put into it's own block building. outside the building? pretty quiet.

Conspiracy rumors? THE PEAker plants, were installed to thwart terrorism attacks upon the hydro plants and stoppage of all american industry. NOW I ain't getting on that boat cause that would mean ten+ years ago, the terrorism was planned for. Security is up at all the generation plants.

LarryinLV
02-27-2007, 08:31 PM
Here's how it works (re: a future environmental cleanup for windfarms)

The developer lines up speculators (investors) with the capital who want to invest in feel-good green projects. The developer deals with the local/federal governments and takes advantage of the political climate for such feel-good projects. Presently developers try to get the land for free, i.e., government owned land or low dollar land leases. By law many utilities must provide solar or wind energy to their grids no matter what the cost. Tax law allows developers to defer or outright not pay taxes on solar/wind ventures.

The developer determines cost per kwh for build-out, operation, and profit for the term of the contract to the PPA. The cost of wind/solar power added to the gird is much higher than other methods. Nuclear power, despite the rod storage problem is the cheapest.

The developer of wind farms does not generally put up any of his own money, the investors do. Disposition is not built into the contract because that is a deal breaker. Many developers have become multi-millionairs by taking their profit, avoiding taxes on that profit, (legally) and walking away after the term of the generation contract.

I do not begrudge anyone making a buck. I do believe, as stated before, that these projects will become one of the next huge environmental, tax funded, clean-up projects. Many are already abandoned...they are there.... waiting for the taxpayer to pay the tab for clean-up.

wierdscience
02-27-2007, 10:53 PM
YA,cleanup,seen that here already.Some outfit here had three windpower units about 15 years ago.Big three bladed affairs like Jtiers mentioned,but not as quiet as the"whoosh" in Evans post.They had a gear train somebody designed with even ratios,as a result the cyclic loading of the blades soon made a whoosh......whooosh into a whooosh..grrrrrrrrrrrr...whoosh..grrrrrrrrrrr..who osh:D
They never turned a profit,sat there un-maintenced for ten years or better and finally went to scrap.

wierdscience
02-27-2007, 11:21 PM
Down here, and everywhere else I have worked, there is a power factor meter and a kilowatt meter.

Surges are hard on generating equipment. Companies pay for it.. A lot less 200hp across the line starters since they started that here. On Monday morning, lights would flash as the plants started thier high horsepower extractors all at once. I went around putting in westinghouse vectrol soft starts for years. WHOO HOO. Before that it was pneumatic timed wye-delta starters with autotransformers inline. Before that, it was manual lever operated wye delta switches. NOW them, they'd blow all to hell leaving a handle in your hand and nothing else. I love technology.

Lots of the high rise buildings I have worked in, yes, air conditioning ran on one side and heat on the other. Seems a loss to me. Of course, the building constructor did not pay the bills, the tenants did.

Seems somebody needs incentives to produce viable alternatives to wasting power, everyone lives in a HUGE house. Without my wife, I'd do quite well in a 400sq foot home. I lived in a travel trailer for a few years thou. I think Darin calls them wood waster homes.. too damn large to support or heat.

Haha..not mine originally,but waste wood they do.Here it's mostly old folks that build them,makes no sense to me,thier kids are gone,thier not planning on having more,why DO they need 3,000sq feet????Can't figure that one.

Me I am turning into my father at an alarming rate.I turn lights off when I leave a room,I keep track of the gas milage on my truck and burn wood,mostly pallets during cold weather.No gas was burned for heat this year,but for the water heater and cook stove.One really good wood burning stove and one fan in the hall to circulate.Heater burns 6 hours on one hardwood pallet the electric supply house next door threw away then the firebrick mass in the heater keeps going another 1-2 hours.Cost me $1,000 for the stove and the SS chimney,would have spent that on gas otherwise so it's a break even in the first year.

Hot water is next,got a tankless already,but I think for a couple hundred bucks I can eliminate it in the summer.Got plenty of heat on an asphalt roof just waiting for a good use.I figure a heat exchanger in the attic and a black poly pipe coil on the roof.If I design the thing right I won't even need a pump:D

Your Old Dog
02-28-2007, 06:40 AM
Wind farms and solar generating plants will be the next big environmental clean up in the near future.

Thousands of acres of wind towers are abandoned as they fail because developers built them for the money and the tax breaks; not out of the kindness of their hearts. The speculater builds it, takes their profit and tax break windfalls, and turns them over to the local power company and walks away. The power output generally does not cover the maintenance costs in the long term.

Thousands of non-operating turbines and acres of solar cells litter the deserts of southern California rotting and rusting away.

And yes, what was once beautiful countryside is now an eyesore.

As our friends on the other side of the pond would say, "Spot On"

If the technology was "really" any good, it wouldn't need government and tax breaks to get it going. It would be so profitable on it's own that everyone would want in.

I'm for windmills in your back yard for you, of your own making. I am not for Massive, humongous structures planted by the hundreds that are over 200 feet tall that obliterate my view of the world so someone can cash in on federal dollars and tax write offs. I agree, we are helping to spawn the next environmental clean up. But at least some will feel warm and gushy because they at least "tried" to save what they perceive as a dying planet even though many of us told them it was a pipe dream. Results aren't nearly so important as intent to many. Just a cheap way of feeling good. If someone really thinks mankind is making too big of an imprint on the planet then maybe they should lead by example and ride a bike or better yet, a horse. Go back to the stone age type living and give big Al another Emmy for riding around in an Element of was it a Hugo? :D

Your Old Dog
02-28-2007, 06:45 AM
How many of you blokes have been through Adair Iowa? thats a pretty big one,

I just read this on my half gallon jug of horizon organic milk this morning and thought it fits the topic;


We make our products using 100% clean wind energy, which eliminates 18,000 tons of polluting greenhouse gas emissions each year, To date our wind energy purchase is the environmental equilvalent of planting 9,000 acres of tree's...
Not to mention the taste, Yuuuummm.

I flatly reject their numbers. Not from any mathematical equasions (I can't even spell it !) but from common sense! :D And Boomer, I had you down as a Scotch or Bourbon drinker and now I hear it's organic milk :D Boy that let the wind out of my sails !! Do you bring that milk home in one of them new Elements?
http://www.edmunds.com/media/seo/500/2006.honda.element.jpg

Dawai
02-28-2007, 08:33 AM
What I have pushed my friends to do? have at least one circuit in your house of low wattage draw lights.. LIKE the screw in flourescents. A twelve volt deep discharge battery and a cheap inverter..

You might not be able to run your big screen tele, but you can see to pull your britches on.

OUR old power grid is very old and used. CHEAP bean counters won't upgrade or replace anything till it fails.

Are you scared of the dark?

(ohh by the way, the old saying is "us electricians do our best work in the dark")

A.K. Boomer
02-28-2007, 09:35 AM
I flatly reject their numbers. Not from any mathematical equasions (I can't even spell it !) but from common sense! :D And Boomer, I had you down as a Scotch or Bourbon drinker and now I hear it's organic milk Boy that let the wind out of my sails !! Do you bring that milk home in one of them new Elements?
http://www.edmunds.com/media/seo/500/2006.honda.element.jpg




YOD, its organic milk (and org. coffee) in the morning and red wine in the evening, I still like beer too:p but there is something in red wine that chills me out and is a nice nightcap (sometimes i outright laps into a coma, you know that you got a good nights sleep when you wake up with a half of bucket of drool on your pillow)
Sorry im not your scotch and burbon drinking super hero, dint mean to dissapoint... (im kinda thinking your an "everclear" kind of guy?) As much as i respect most honda's Id never drive a honda element --- its a gas hog for one... plus there's a fine line between "funky" and "gay" I kinda think honda's crossed that line, I also think they need to stick with what they know and stay out of the truck bizz, ever notice the new ridgeliner doesnt have a separation between cab and bed? thats because its uni-body, just my ever so humble opinion but you dont build a truck thats unibody, and also for its size its quite the "little piggy" on fuel too, Honda rant off --- one of the best cars iv ever owned was my 1990 honda CRX --- i also had an 87 with over 400,000 miles on it and sold it to a girl and gave her a full drivetrain warranty that she never had to use;)

Your Old Dog
02-28-2007, 11:43 AM
Yea Boomer well I'm bringing my milk home these days in a 2001 Ford F350 Lariat 4X4 Extended Cab, Off Rd Pkg, 7.3 litre Power Stroke Diesel engine that I bought last week!! This one even smokes a little when I start it up so I can put on a big display of bravado :D (actually got it to tow a new travel trailer and ATV out west) According to the mileage computer I'm getting 21.6 mpg on the road.

Im with you on the wine but just as soon as I developed a taste for it they put me on blood thinners and told me not to have any more alcholol. I'll bet I haven't drank but 5 cases of beer, 4 gallon of whiskey and maybe 3 gallon of wine and now that I want it I can't have it! I can't say I'd kill for a nice glass of Giacobasi Lambrusco but I'd seriously work somebody over for one if I could have it :D

Don't overdo it on the milk especially if your having it with cookies or maybe peanut donuts!