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View Full Version : more than one person is picking up on mercury in CF lights



andy_b
02-28-2007, 01:40 PM
i see the "elimination of incandescent bulbs" thread is still kicking, but figured this may get lost on folks not following it.

http://www.elecdesign.com/Articles/Index.cfm?AD=1&ArticleID=15026&bypass=1

even electronics industry folks realize there is a disposal problem.

andy b.

Too_Many_Tools
02-28-2007, 05:25 PM
I agree that it will be a problem IF they are not recycled.

So what is wrong with RECYCLING them?

You should be recycling any and all fluorescent tubes now.

Are you?

TMT

Evan
02-28-2007, 07:38 PM
Are you?

Where? They don't even have a way to recycle dead CRTs and a 17" CRT has about 5 to 7 lbs of lead in it. That won't stop them from imposing an "enviro fee" here on electronics with lead in a couple of months though. Still no hint of a recycling program.

Tin Falcon
02-28-2007, 08:35 PM
It seems like all technology had its trade offs and it is a matter wich industry is getting the help of the legislatures.
Tin

Too_Many_Tools
02-28-2007, 09:39 PM
Where? They don't even have a way to recycle dead CRTs and a 17" CRT has about 5 to 7 lbs of lead in it. That won't stop them from imposing an "enviro fee" here on electronics with lead in a couple of months though. Still no hint of a recycling program.


Sounds like a business opportunity to me.

TMT

Evan
02-28-2007, 09:42 PM
Sure. Just try to get a permit for a facility intended to handle quantities of waste containing lead and/or mercury.

dp
02-28-2007, 10:42 PM
I bought 4 CF spots at Home Depot a few days ago. Two have already died. All four are going in the trash.

It is laughable to expect the vendors to deal with dead CF lamps. There's no money in it, and there's a lot of government crap they'd have to deal with. This whole bag of nonsense is going to end up creating polution and interesting 'burial mounds' in remote places. The law of unexpected consequences will kick in.

Some years ago when eagles started showing up in Eastern Puget Sound the public servants decided that nesting eagles needed the full protection of the state. If you were within a quarter mile of an eagle's nest you could forget plowing, mowing, building, maintenance, etc. The result was a lot of eagles went missing. There one day, gone the next.

Nobody is going to drive in from Alice Springs to turn in a bunch of burnt out CF lamps, and I doubt many are going to go further than the curb here in the 'burbs.

dp
02-28-2007, 10:48 PM
Sounds like a business opportunity to me.

TMT

I think so, too. I'm going to start hording incandescant lamps. In particular, refridgerator and oven lamps, and full-size Christmas Tree lamps. I'll also have a huge line of decor globes for bathrooms, and candle lamps for chandeliers. And lamp dimmers. When there's none left in the world I'll start offering them as NOS on Ebay.

andy_b
02-28-2007, 10:56 PM
I think so, too. I'm going to start hording incandescant lamps. In particular, refridgerator and oven lamps, and full-size Christmas Tree lamps. I'll also have a huge line of decor globes for bathrooms, and candle lamps for chandeliers. And lamp dimmers. When there's none left in the world I'll start offering them as NOS on Ebay.

the funny thing is, you'll probably get rich doing it. :)

oh, and i recycle everything i can. i even harass others when i see them throwing an aluminum can in the regular trash. if there was a place near me to recycle CF bulbs (or even regular fluoro tubes) i'd do it. as it stands now, the only place for them is the trash, which ends up in the local landfill.

andy b.

dp
03-01-2007, 12:08 AM
the funny thing is, you'll probably get rich doing it. :)


Not likely, or somebody would surely find a way to make it illegal.

This assinine global warming debate is out of control and the loonies are winning. I nearly shat myself last week when I'd read that bottled water from the Pacific island of Fiji is the 'Hummer' of bottled waters. Now, I'm a Polynesian at heart - and I buy Fiji water first because it helps the economy there and it is rather clean as industries go. Secondly, it is rather good as bottled waters go. Then this article shows up: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2007/02/pablo_calculate.php.

Now understand - it does not matter what Fiji's primary export is, the distance from Fiji to China or Seattle remains unchanged. The cost to ship tarot or bottled water is the same, pound for pound. So that's a red herring. If they produced some smoke stack product, say iron castings for Chinese ox yokes, it would produce even more polution. Same with frozen fish or any other resource they have access to.

So what they have is water. http://www.fijiwater.com/, and it's pretty damn good and it puts a few folks to work in a clean industry, and it is an infinitely renewable resource. The bottles are recycleable. What the hell is the problem here? The problem is the frigging loonies, the same bastids that want to have mercury buried in the backyards of the world have the same idiot ideas about Fijian exports. The arrogant asshat truely believes it's just water and that folks like me are environmental Nazis or worse for buying it and helping feed the Fijians who produce it.

And that whole absurdity about how many gallons of water it takes to create a single bottle of Fiji water - apparently this nit has never seen the Columbia river. Certainly he's never seen the Ba or Rewa rivers in Fiji where 99.9999999% of all of Fiji's fresh water drains into the sea, unused. The artesian water that is actually bottled also goes out to sea by way of seams in the rock that makes up the island. Were it not bottled it would be wasted entirely.

People with no training in science should be prohibited by common sense and common law from commenting on even simple things like this. Especially when they get it soo pathetically wrong.

Evan
03-01-2007, 01:07 AM
I know exactly how you feel. Some years back I was listening to some sort of self proclaimed "environment expert" being interviewed on radio about the various environmental "problems" in this area. He was going on about the cattle industry which is a major player around here. We have one of the largest ranches in North America about 50 miles from where I live, the Gang Ranch.

Asked about the ill effects of cattle ranching on the land he started whining about all the shyt they leave on the land.

Now it can be a problem if they are fed up next to a natural water course and the pies freeze in the winter. They melt in the spring runoff and overload the water systems.

That wasn't what he meant though. He was concerned about the general accumulation of cattle excrement on the general landscape and seemed to have no concept that there were cattle all over the landscape long before ranchers came along. Just because there aren't huge herds of buffalo wandering around anymore doesn't mean there never were.

Swarf&Sparks
03-01-2007, 07:19 AM
"Engineer and MBA Pablo Päster has done a thorough and exhaustive study of the cost of bring a litre of Fiji Water to America."

Did the wanker do a thorough and extensive cost whilst driving his Porsche to his air-conditioned office, while chatting on his mobile broadband/phone, to his executive assistant and publicist?
And he was probably washing down his armagnac with an evian.
:cool:

Evan
03-01-2007, 08:13 AM
Just wait a few years. The price of oil will be up there with printer ink and fresh water will cost what oil does today.

Swarf&Sparks
03-01-2007, 08:35 AM
If you look at bottle prices, water already costs more than oil!

Swarf&Sparks
03-01-2007, 08:46 AM
I don't believe these clowns!
They sell stills to purify your water, then "Amazing micro water" so you can re-introduce the impurities.
:eek:
http://www.juicersaustralia.com.au/water_distillers_australia.shtml
http://www.juicersaustralia.com.au/amazing_alkaline_water.shtml

Too_Many_Tools
03-01-2007, 09:30 AM
Sounds like a business opportunity to me.

TMT

You can make anything economical to recycle....resulting in a business opportunity.

In a number of states, empty bottles and cans are worth money (so much per bottle/can) and that money is given out when the item is returned by those who sell the product. In those states, the littler problem from these items is nil and the returns are economically recycled.

Do the same with anything and it will happen.

Do it and you will also see the TRUE cost of producing, selling and owning it.

I am a bit surprised by all the negativity that I am seeing on this subject...where did accountability for personal and business decisions go?

Do you condone individuals and companies soiling your corner of the world with trash and waste products?

An example...if you eat fish you know that overall mercury levels in seafood are rising...an very real indicator that past production and recycling efforts have not been adequate. Whether another fluorescent bulb is sold isn't the issue, the overall problem of mecury pollution is.

TMT

Swarf&Sparks
03-01-2007, 09:33 AM
I'm proud to say, I recycle ALL my beer cans :D
crush em, take em down the scrap yard and trade em for metal I can use.

Paul Alciatore
03-01-2007, 09:34 AM
The thing about recycling is that the average person just will not drive 50 or 100 miles to recycle anything. I even have doubts about some of them walking across the street from their normal trash pickup point. And that is not an exaggeration.

Do we need to recycle? Of course we do. But the only way it makes sense is to do so on a curbside basis. But in the areas where I have lived, this has come to naught. I still have that nice big blue bin that the city gave me some years ago for recycling. But they gave up the effort because it was too expensive. Not because it was not good for us, but it was too expensive to do it. Their reason, not mine.

What the world needs is an intelligent politician. Lots of Luck there.

Too_Many_Tools
03-01-2007, 09:40 AM
I know exactly how you feel. Some years back I was listening to some sort of self proclaimed "environment expert" being interviewed on radio about the various environmental "problems" in this area. He was going on about the cattle industry which is a major player around here. We have one of the largest ranches in North America about 50 miles from where I live, the Gang Ranch.

Asked about the ill effects of cattle ranching on the land he started whining about all the shyt they leave on the land.

Now it can be a problem if they are fed up next to a natural water course and the pies freeze in the winter. They melt in the spring runoff and overload the water systems.

That wasn't what he meant though. He was concerned about the general accumulation of cattle excrement on the general landscape and seemed to have no concept that there were cattle all over the landscape long before ranchers came along. Just because there aren't huge herds of buffalo wandering around anymore doesn't mean there never were.


You must be one of those who enjoy drinking cattle shyt in their water. LOL

The reason for the concern is that the animal excrement overloads the ability for the natural mechanisms to breakdown the bacteria (E. Coli) compared to the rate the water is extracted to feed municipal water needs. Also the higher the nitrate level of the water (shYt=natural fertilizer=nitrates), the more dangerous it is to certain portions of the population.

I will admit there is alot of bad science used on both sides of the ecological debates but in the end it is the public health at stake.

The increasing incidence of food recalls (peanut butter being just the latest) indicates that the problem is getting worse, not better.

TMT

Swarf&Sparks
03-01-2007, 09:45 AM
Kerbside recycling has been a fact in this area for some years now.
The local council (read, ratepayer) subsidizes it to some extent, it does reduce landfill, but there must be a profit in it. The recycling company provides a second wheelie-bin, which is picked up fortnightly.

Too_Many_Tools
03-01-2007, 09:53 AM
If you look at bottle prices, water already costs more than oil!


LOL...and the fools just keep buying it.

Bottled water is a text book case of manipulating the buying public.

Bottled water is a multi billion dollar business where one did not exist before.

Who would have ever thought that anyone would buy water bottled at extraordinary prices when the same product is available FREE at any tap?

And in response to the inevitable response...because it is better for me/tastes better than tap/blah, blah, blah....consider if that is the case, it likely due to allowing companies and individuals contaminating your local groundwater.

In other words you pay for it now or you pay more later if you do not act responsibily from an environmental standpoint.

Enjoy that $bottled water$....what's next bottled air?

TMT

Swarf&Sparks
03-01-2007, 09:58 AM
"what's next bottled air?"
Don't laugh, the d1ckheads are already paying for whiffs of "designer air" in certain nightclubs in Perth. I know the guy installing the gear. It's industrial oxygen with a dab of "bottled pine forest" or whatever.:eek:

Swarf&Sparks
03-01-2007, 10:09 AM
To return to incandescent for just a moment....
I went out to change a globe when I noticed one of my cameras showing black.
Has anyone ever seen a bulb fail like this?

http://i23.photobucket.com/albums/b387/idgara_eng/Phonepic165.jpg

andy_b
03-01-2007, 10:58 AM
Who would have ever thought that anyone would buy water bottled at extraordinary prices when the same product is available FREE at any tap?

TMT

actually, it isn't available free at your tap. you pay for an electric pump used to provide the head pressure to deliver the water. unless of course you dip it out of a stream or a big open holding tank on your roof. and in either of those cases, you just may be safer drinking the bottled water. :-)


andy b.

Jim Caudill
03-01-2007, 11:09 AM
Andy B wrote: "oh, and i recycle everything i can. i even harass others when i see them throwing an aluminum can in the regular trash. if there was a place near me to recycle CF bulbs (or even regular fluoro tubes) i'd do it. as it stands now, the only place for them is the trash, which ends up in the local landfill."

Andy, don't make too broad generalizations regarding trash disposal. The dumpster for my car wash gets everything thrown in together (no oil, tires, or other obvious hazards). It all gets sorted and disposed of properly later on. I don't know the mechanics, but I called and talked to my dumpster provider to make sure. City services may operate differently, but this is the way my private trash service handles it.

LarryinLV
03-01-2007, 11:16 AM
We have a filter system on the water entering the house. We buy bottled water then refill the bottle and put it back in the fridge for our own personal use (swmbo and I).

We keep a few unopened bottles on the bottom shelf for company. Wouldn't want to upset anyone's delicate sensitivities.

Sure cuts down on the unit per cost, recycling buildup, and keeps a cold refreshing drink available after a hot bout in the shop.

(I notice how we've gone from mercury in cf bulbs to water bottles and recycling.. I think I'm on topic at this point in time........)

Evan
03-01-2007, 11:19 AM
You must be one of those who enjoy drinking cattle shyt in their water. LOL

That isn't and wasn't the issue. We don't get our drinking water from the rivers or lakes here but from deep wells. They aren't anywhere near what this guy was going on about. Gang Ranch is around 1 million acres and nobody but the cattle live there for the most part. I think he must have stepped in a cow pie when he was a kid.

LarryinLV
03-01-2007, 11:22 AM
Aren't you concerned about the people swimming through the water to get to the other side??

Never mind......That's the other border..

Swarf&Sparks
03-01-2007, 11:28 AM
A million acres? That's not a cattle station, it's a garden! :D

BigBoy1
03-01-2007, 11:50 AM
I'm sure the Gov't. regulators will be come involved in this debate and make regulations. However, common sense will not prevail!

If one remebers back that the rat poison, "DECON" was original a bright red color so that it could be readily seen once it was placed. The color of DECON is now a bright green. Government requlations made the DECON company change the color of the dye used. You seen the red dye used to color the rat poisin caused cancer in rats. Since it caused cancer in rats, it could no longer be used. That is why the color was changed. I guess it is OK to kill the rats but not give then cancer!

Bill

dp
03-01-2007, 12:19 PM
We have a filter system on the water entering the house. We buy bottled water then refill the bottle and put it back in the fridge for our own personal use (swmbo and I).

We keep a few unopened bottles on the bottom shelf for company. Wouldn't want to upset anyone's delicate sensitivities.

Sure cuts down on the unit per cost, recycling buildup, and keeps a cold refreshing drink available after a hot bout in the shop.

(I notice how we've gone from mercury in cf bulbs to water bottles and recycling.. I think I'm on topic at this point in time........)

We use tap water in the house for everything. Unfiltered. We keep two liter bottles filled and chilled in the fridge. I take bottled water to work (because the building water has a bitter metalic taste), and when I'm out on my gas guzzling Harley bottled water is not a luxury, it's essential. Bottled water is a legitimate product with real life applications.

I think the topic is government stupidity so mercury, water, what ever the government meddles in is fair game :)

Wirecutter
03-01-2007, 01:11 PM
Does it still take an acre of rainforest to make a pair of Birkenstocks?

-Mark

Too_Many_Tools
03-01-2007, 02:21 PM
That isn't and wasn't the issue. We don't get our drinking water from the rivers or lakes here but from deep wells. They aren't anywhere near what this guy was going on about. Gang Ranch is around 1 million acres and nobody but the cattle live there for the most part. I think he must have stepped in a cow pie when he was a kid.

Evan, the contamination of well systems by livestock runoff is a common and well known problem.

And as I just pointed out, it is now causing considerable problems in the food supply (i.e. peanut butter).

And it is an example of what can happen when one party produces a contaminant and permits it to infringe on the space of another. Whether nitrates or mercury if you benefit from the issue, you should be responsible for the cleanup and end handling of the issue.

In relation to consumer electronics, the manufacturers and consumers have been getting a free ride in regards to the costs of disposal of the product. In the near future when analog televisions are made obsolete, there will be hundreds of millions of sets with pounds of lead that will need to be dealt with...do you see any preparation for this problem? The life of an average cell phone is three months where it is then tossed in the trash. The turnover of computer equipment is such that charitable organization refuse to deal with it and it is being dumped in third world countries.

As I have said before, it is time for the American public to step up and take responsibility for the problem that they are causing....consumption without accountability of the environmental cost.

The push for fluorescent lighting is to slow the need for further electric plants being built. I guess we could just go to a 12 hour electric cycle with no power for the remaining day....or better yet rolling blackouts like other third world countries. That would allow us to cut power consumption and then everyone can use their sacred tungsten filament bulbs.

TMT

Evan
03-01-2007, 04:35 PM
Such contamination is not a problem in the context he was speaking in. Nor is it unnatural. Try to imagine how many cow turds 100,000 buffalo would leave behind as they passed through.


A million acres? That's not a cattle station, it's a garden!

Quite so. Our land here actually grows grass.:D

Doc Nickel
03-01-2007, 04:59 PM
The recycling company provides a second wheelie-bin, which is picked up fortnightly.

-Really? Ours is only picked up every two weeks...

Doc.

Evan
03-01-2007, 05:14 PM
Take responsibility eh? How about this? The next time you go shopping for something such as CF bulbs in the indestructible packaging ask the checkout person to unpackage them for you. Make them call a manager to do it. Explain that the last time you tried you hurt yourself. Make them keep the garbage. Oh, and take your own shopping bags. We do. I'm getting tired of filling up my dumpster with packaging that sometimes is worth more than the product.

Swarf&Sparks
03-01-2007, 11:16 PM
"Quite so. Our land here actually grows grass"

Yeah, you're right on the money there Evan :)
check out

http://www.wrightsair.com.au/anna.htm

Too_Many_Tools
03-04-2007, 04:59 PM
Tech firms go green as e-waste mounts By TERENCE CHEA, Associated Press Writer
Sun Mar 4

This is where computers go to die a green death. Inside Hewlett-Packard Co.'s cavernous recycling plant in the Sacramento suburbs, truckloads of obsolete PCs, servers and printers collected from consumers and businesses nationwide are cracked open by goggled workers who pull out batteries, circuit boards and other potentially hazardous components.

The electronic carcasses are fed into a massive machine that noisily shreds them into tiny pieces and mechanically sorts the fragments into piles of steel, aluminum, plastic and precious metals. Those scraps are sent to smelting plants, mostly in the Sacramento area, where they are melted down for reuse.

The computer industry is ramping up its campaign against electronic waste, a dangerous byproduct of technology's relentless expansion. HP and Dell Inc., which together sell more than half the country's PCs, are earning praise from environmentalists for using more eco-friendly components and recycling their products when consumers discard them.

"The computer companies are definitely embracing the idea that they need to deal with their products at the end of their useful life," said Barbara Kyle, who coordinates the San Francisco-based nonprofit Computer TakeBack Campaign. "There's been a complete turnaround."

But activists say far too much of the nation's electronic garbage — not only PCs but also TVs, radios, batteries and other materials — still ends up in landfills or gets shipped overseas to poor countries, where it pollutes the environment and exposes workers to dangerous chemicals.

"The United States is not responsibly managing this waste stream," said Sarah Westervelt of the Basel Action Network, a Seattle-based group that seeks to stop the spread of hazardous waste. "We're allowing it to go offshore and poison developing countries."

The push to recycle reflects a broader greening of the tech industry.

In addition to recycling and eliminating toxic chemicals, more companies are making their products energy efficient, using eco-friendly packaging and offsetting their carbon emissions to curb global warming.

"This focus is good for business," said Carl Claunch, a computer industry analyst at the technology research company Gartner Inc. "There's a growing pool of customers who value environmentally friendly products."

Still, e-waste is a growing environmental and public health concern as the world becomes more wired and companies introduce new products at a faster pace.

Discarded computers, televisions, radios, batteries, cell phones, cameras and other gadgets contain a stew of toxic metals and chemicals such as lead, mercury, cadmium, chromium, brominated flame retardants and polychlorinated biphenyls, or PCBs.

The U.S. Environmental Protection Agency says American consumers generated nearly 2 million tons of electronic waste in 2005. Gartner estimates that 133,000 PCs are discarded by U.S. homes and businesses each day.

Only 10 to 15 percent of electronics are currently recycled, industry analysts say. The rest collects dust in people's homes or gets dumped into municipal landfills, where environmentalists worry toxic chemicals can leak out.

Among the e-waste that is recycled, activists say, up to 80 percent is exported overseas to dismantling shops where poor workers are exposed to hazardous fumes and chemicals while trying to extract valuable metals and components.

Researchers for Greenpeace International have detected high levels of toxic metals in soil and water samples collected around electronics-dismantling workshops in China and India.

A growing number of countries and states are requiring electronics companies to take responsibility for recycling their products.

Japan, South Korea and most European countries now require electronics manufacturers to pay for and manage recycling programs for their products.

There is no such federal law in the United States, but Washington, Maine and Maryland recently passed "take-back" laws and about a dozen other states are considering such legislation.

California made it illegal to throw away nearly all electronic products last year, but the state doesn't require manufacturers to take back their products. Instead, when consumers buy electronics, they pay fees to cover the cost of recycling those products later.

E-waste advocates are pushing "producer responsibility" because it gives companies an incentive to make their devices more environmentally friendly.

"It's essential that manufacturers think through the end of life of their products," said Rick Hind, legislative director for Greenpeace's toxics campaign. "No matter how they recycle, it doesn't matter if there are still toxic materials in their computers."

Among computer manufacturers, Dell has emerged as a leader in electronics recycling. The Round Rock, Texas-based company has pledged to phase out certain toxic chemicals and began offering free recycling for all its products in December.

Chairman and CEO Michael Dell challenged the industry to follow his company's lead in his keynote address at this year's Consumer Electronics Show in Las Vegas, saying, "It's the right thing to do for our customers. It's the right thing to do for our earth."

The company recovered 80 million pounds of equipment in 2005. Some computers are refurbished and resold — possibly overseas — while parts or materials are recycled within the U.S. if equipment can't be fixed, said Dell spokesman Bryant Hilton.

"Our goal is to make it as easy to recycle a computer as it is to buy one," said Hilton, adding that the company's electronic waste isn't shipped overseas.

Hewlett-Packard recycled 164 million pounds of hardware and print cartridges globally last year, 16 percent more than the previous year. In the U.S., the company recycles about 50 million pounds at its plants in Roseville and Nashville, Tenn. and doesn't send any of that waste stream to landfills or overseas.

Since it began recycling 20 years ago, Palo Alto-based HP has set out to design products that last longer and are easy to recycle, said John Frey, who manages the company's environmental strategies.

HP still charges for recycling, but consumers get a coupon that goes toward the purchase of new products. It also organizes collection drives at retail stores where consumers can drop off old gear for free.

"Being environmentally responsible makes sense for our business — it affects brand loyalty and how customers view us," Frey said.

But the problem is far wider than just computers.

Activists are focusing more attention on televisions, which make up an increasingly large share of the world's electronic waste. As more Americans switch to flat-panel TVs, they are throwing out clunky cathode-ray tube sets that contain large amounts of lead.

"The TV industry needs to step up and create some takeback programs," Kyle said. "Ultimately, they must design their stuff in a way that makes them easier to recycle."

___

On the Net:

Computer TakeBack Campaign: http://www.computertakeback.com

Dell Computer: http://www.dell.com/recycle

Hewlett-Packard: http://www.hp.com/hpinfo/globalcitizenship/en vironment/