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View Full Version : Do you guys have shops in basement, garage?



DR
03-24-2007, 09:04 PM
Curious about this, if you live in a city does your house have a dedicated shop? Not necessarily a large shop filled with machines, but an area with a work bench where you can work on something without having to put a tarp down to protect the floor or carpet.

I'm asking this because I think I'm seeing a trend away from workshop spaces. In my in-city neighborhood the houses are from 30 to 80 years old. Originally they all had unfinished basements with storage and a work area.

Now as these houses change ownership I see the sales listings, houses nearly identical to my 4 bedroom house suddenly have 6+ bedrooms. Going through these homes I see the basements invariably have been turned into living space with tiny, rat holes bedrooms.

What's with this?

Adding to the confusion is my city, Seattle, is rapidly becoming unaffordable for young couples with children, the housing is just plain too expensive. Yet, there seem to be a super premium on having lots and lots of bedrooms.

How is it where you live?

Evan
03-24-2007, 09:05 PM
Yes, I do.

Tin Falcon
03-24-2007, 09:16 PM
I live in an urban area of a small town 15 thousand plus or minus . 100 plus year old house. my shop is in a room at the back of the house, the basement and the garage. The garage is mostly storage hope tp turn it more into work space.
tin

sch
03-24-2007, 09:21 PM
I live on a hill side, the house is about 25' below street level, and the
basement, accessed only from the rear or inside the house is another
10' down. Shop is in the basement. Garage is easy access but dedicated
to cars, yard stuff and bikes, and general storage. If I ever stumbled
across a B'port type mill it would have to go in the garage, which would be
a major upheaval. Temps in garage go to 120F in summer.

andypullen
03-24-2007, 09:31 PM
My shop was in the basement for several years. Although it was always comfortable year round, the cutting oil smell was sometimes too much for the family. Since I moved; I'm in the garage. More space, yes, but I share it with the wife's van and bikes, mowers, etc. Cold in the winter, too. I need to insulate it and improve how I heat it. I haven't been here in the summer, yet...I'll let you know about that. When it's damp outside; the floor is damp. I haven't figured out what to do about that, yet.

A friend of mine built a garage and had the heated floor put in. He tells me it's fantastic in the winter. He also put in AC for summer.

Andy Pullen

lane
03-24-2007, 09:39 PM
Live in the South . Started out in 1/2 of a 2 car garage. But about 19 years ago built a 16 by 20 building in back yard for shop.Now its too small . Need 20x30 building.

TECHSHOP
03-24-2007, 09:50 PM
My home (metal) shop was in the garage, but it is in the process of moving into a portion of the basement. The garage is now going to be woodworking and large project assembly area only. Another section of the basement is already used as a "dry" (no oil, etc) assembly area for things I can carry, and is generally a hand tool only zone. Which is located next to the "heat treat" area (yes, a large masonary fireplace). Today I returned home with a brand new 12x24 ft "shop in a box" to replace the 10x20 ft "shop in a box" of the last few years, basically doubles the available shop surface area in spring and summer. That leave out the back shed, mainly because I may have to move into there, when SWMBO finds out about the planned shop expansion...

ProGunOne
03-24-2007, 10:09 PM
1 car attached garage that was never used as one.

lazlo
03-24-2007, 10:25 PM
Live in the South.

Depends on where in the South. It's rare for a house in Central Texas to have a basement (land is mostly solid limestone), and the real state is so expensive that you'll rarely find a separate shop building in Dallas/Austin/Houston/San Antonio.

I have a friend who wanted a separate shop bad enough that he bought a house well outside of the city, but he's got over an hour commute each direction to work.

I need to move to Louisiana -- I'd love to have a dedicated shop! :)

J Tiers
03-24-2007, 10:26 PM
Basement. The city frowns on basement living quarters, you have to have multiple egress means, etc. They particularly don't like basement bathrooms, unless, as we did, you already have one. Then you can upgrade, but to put one in they have more requirements, based largely on flooding potential.

I have basement stairs, so moving in a 13" SB, let alone a B-Pt, would be a hassle. No walk-in door.

I am in a first-line suburb, house is 70 years old, and my commute recently dropped to 6 minutes door-to-door (didn't change jobs).

Basements are nice, no extra to heat them, no extra to cool them, always there, and other activities can be combined with shop work, such as minding laundry, keeping an eye on other activities, etc.

Wareagle
03-24-2007, 10:41 PM
I am very lucky. We found a place in town that had a 20x40 building behind the house with an overhead door facing the street (corner lot) and was actually below our budget. Just so happens that it is heated and air-conditioned, and is a very nice (though older) neighborhood, too. IMO, a shop is never big enough, and I am out growing mine rapidly.

On the other hand, it isn't so big that we can't afford to keep it comfortable during the summer, and being in Texas that is a big plus!

lazlo
03-24-2007, 10:43 PM
Wareagle, where are you in Texas?

torker
03-24-2007, 10:58 PM
I had a very well thought out woodshop in my small basement...moved it into my new shop (10 years ago), then sold all my equipment and bought metal fab stuff and later added the machining equipment.
Now I'm filling my basement with woodworking stuff again. There's a huge shortage of the wood trade type people here so I'm jumpin back on that horse again...for awhile.
Funny..I can get a legit business licence to operate a small cabinet shop out of my home shop but there's NO way they'll let me do any machining or welding. I've been seriously looking to rent a decent shop since last Sept...no luck so to heck with it for now. The sawdust beckons me again :D
Russ

aostling
03-24-2007, 11:31 PM
Adding to the confusion is my city, Seattle, is rapidly becoming unaffordable for young couples with children, the housing is just plain too expensive. Yet, there seem to be a super premium on having lots and lots of bedrooms.

How is it where you live?

I grew up in Seattle throughout the 1940s and 1950s. My grandfather, a Swedish carpenter named Axel Ostling, built his family house at 4007 Bagley Avenue N., in 1921. If you want to see an extreme example of what you decry, check out this house. Originally a bungalow of one and a half stories (bedrooms in the attic), it now has three stories on the original foundation, and looks ridiculous. Its value has soared to a level which Axel would not comprehend.

There are virtually no basements in California or Arizona. Pehaps this is because houses here don't need furnaces, but it's a shame.

BadDog
03-24-2007, 11:55 PM
In this part of AZ at least, it's because we have hard granite within about 1-2' of the surface. Even building a swimming pool can be prohibitively expensive, though there are still MANY of them obviously. But sometimes the cost of just digging the hole can to $20k for a home pool if they have to get blasting permits, and I’m told most all pool installation companies either have blasting licenses and engineers, or the contract with such outfits.

aostling
03-25-2007, 12:04 AM
In this part of AZ at least, it's because we have hard granite within about 1-2' of the surface. Even building a swimming pool can be prohibitively expensive, though there are still MANY of them obviously. But sometimes the cost of just digging the hole can to $20k for a home pool if they have to get blasting permits, and Iím told most all pool installation companies either have blasting licenses and engineers, or the contract with such outfits.

Bad Dog,

I don't deny that you may have some granite underfoot, but mostly Phoenix is cursed with caliche http://cals.arizona.edu/pubs/garden/mg/soils/caliche.html. Trying to dig it, you might think it's granite.

dan s
03-25-2007, 12:14 AM
My shop is in the miniscule one car garage of my duplex rental. DRís words ring very true in my ears, because Iím in the age group he refers to. With the way house prices are, Iíll be in my early 30ís before I can afford a decent home in a nice neighborhood.

CCWKen
03-25-2007, 12:35 AM
Wow, I wish we had basements down here. That's about the only thing I miss after moving from Ohio. ;) If I ever get around to building another house, it will have a basement. Not for a shop but for living space and storage. In any case, I work out of a "barn" and a soon to be completed shop addition finished and temperature controlled. As Wareagle says, AC for the Texas summers is a necessity. At least it is for my age. :D

aostling
03-25-2007, 01:02 AM
Wow, I wish we had basements down here. That's about the only thing I miss after moving from Ohio. ;) If I ever get around to building another house, it will have a basement. Not for a shop but for living space and storage. In any case, I work out of a "barn" and a soon to be completed shop addition finished and temperature controlled. As Wareagle says, AC for the Texas summers is a necessity. At least it is for my age. :D

I lived in Arlington from 1996-2001. I could never figure out why the houses there and in Ft. Worth had no basements. Maybe it's because of the periodic downpours?

You're right, the heat of Texas is hard to take, worse than here in Phoenix, because it's not a dry heat.

BadDog
03-25-2007, 01:09 AM
Your right. It was granite they expected here, but caliche was mentioned along with other stone, though I don’t know where or in what proportions. Basically, any where you dig here you will probably hit stone very soon, it’s just a matter of how hard it’s going to be...

Oh, and on the topic of shops. Mine is a detached “1 car garage” of about 19 x 24 if I recall correctly. Far too small in any case...

Tinkerer
03-25-2007, 01:18 AM
Nope... neither basement or garage. Machine tools are in a 16'x20' building Wife calls it the shed I call it the shop. That sit next to the 32'x32' building thats storing a 40'x65' steel shed inside. :cool:

darryl
03-25-2007, 01:44 AM
Basement shop- and with the threat of being flooded this year. I do hope not.

harley2003rkc
03-25-2007, 02:09 AM
I don't know how you guys do it. I moved into my first house (this house) when I was 23, I built my shop about a year after I moved in. I put up a 30 x 40 pole barn 100' behind the house. Put a limestone road in, and poured an approach for working out front. I've been working on it for the last 6 years but I now have a finished shop with 100,000 btu furnace (hung from the ceiling), insulated, boarded, stereo system, TV mounted in the corner over the door, 10' x 10' access in addition to the service door, all my air has been piped overhead to hose reels, retractable 12/3 extension cords next to each hose reel, and retractable work lights next to those. My bench is 16' long and built into the wall, starting at the end of my bench: mig welder, buzz box, TIG, three angle grinders on wall, bench grinder, belt sander, two drill presses, parts cleaning tank, lathe, table saw, band saw, 25 cfm compressor, and two open slots for a Bridgeport and a horizontal mill. The horizontal will be picked up next month, I'm still looking for a Bridgeport. I won't even start listing the tooling stacked on warehouse shelving.

Where in the world do you guys put all your tooling in the basement? I couldn't even think of moving into a garage or a basement. I knew I had to build the day I signed on the house. I just wish I could have afforded to build twice what I built. I'm now looking at expanding. And yes, I live in the city. I just waited until I found a 1 1/2 acre lot.

Paul Alciatore
03-25-2007, 03:00 AM
I am probably unique. My shop is presently in a 32' travel trailer. Not the best floor to install a lathe on, but it was the best my budget could stand. I only have about $3K in it. I ripped out a lot of the original built-ins but left the kitchen sink and bathroom. It has two "tilt outs" where I have covered over the windows and installed work benches. I also covered the front picture window and installed shelves there. No mill yet, but the door is big enough to get one in as long as it will fit under the ceiling (about 6' 6"). It ain't gonna be a Bridgeport.

Not perfect, but so far, it works for me. And when I retire and move back south, I just need to hitch up and tow it with me. Slowly of course.

wbleeker
03-25-2007, 04:17 AM
My Shop at the moment is a 60' x 100' shed, I think it is a bit too big and as soon as we sell our farm and move next to our business I will make it about half that size with an outdoor awning out one side. I won't have too many skylights as it is hard to weld and see what you are doing with light coming in from behind and I will have some separate rooms so that I can isolate grinding and welding from machine tools etc,Even thogh I am in Australia where the climate is not as severe as the Northern hemisphere I will have the shed fully insulated and probably have a room air conditioned as well, it was 33decrees Celcius here yesterday and today it is 10 degrees, we live on top of the mountains, about 15 kilometres from the ocean and experience all types of weather, sometimes in the one day! We had the highest rainfall in the state for February 430mm, I even got my photo in the paper for that, The electronic rain gauge is in the backyard of our shop.
Will

Alguy
03-25-2007, 06:06 AM
i have both The garage i built is main shop area with compressor tool boxes welders, press, parts cleaning tanks , bead blast cabinet my old atlas lathe .it is un heated except by small space heaters its 24x 30 When i bought my south bend 9 i placed it in basement so i could do some winter work since then i added a benchmaster vertical mill and small work bench and a roll around tool box,, I think a little work bench expansion and a small grinder it will be suitable for me.. for the forseeable future. i agree that basements are nice feature if they are dry.

John Stevenson
03-25-2007, 06:29 AM
I work from home, it's a 30 yard commute :D
House was built in 1901 and the shop is the old stable block at the side. About 17' x 45' with overhead hay loft storage.
Soon after we moved in we added a 30' x 50' extension but in the rush forgot to install a floor.
Plenty of machines but the missing floor is still a worry.

.

slowtwitch
03-25-2007, 06:35 AM
I have a small (13x17), unheated garage. I had a lathe in it for about a year and a half and grew tired of condensation issues. So, I setup a section of my basement, as my shop.

I've posted some of these before, but, a picture is worth a thousand words.......

My work bench .....

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f109/slowtwitch/IMG_4431.jpg

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f109/slowtwitch/IMG_4430.jpg

and the rest of the shop....

http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f109/slowtwitch/IMG_4421.jpg

It's been working out very nicely, warm in the winter, no condensation problems, somewhat cool in the summer. I'm rebuilding a couple of aircooled, Porsche engines and moving an engine from the basement can be a chore. But, that's when a couple of strong back sons come into the scene :D

pete

Alistair Hosie
03-25-2007, 07:52 AM
I have a large space under my complete house sectioned with stone walls .But I can't quite stand up so no workshop under the house one at the back and one at the side .Alistair

Your Old Dog
03-25-2007, 08:10 AM
I've had 5 basements shops and I was grateful to get out of the pit and into a workshop attached to the garage of our last home. When we moved in, the shop area had 5 foot rotted round hole in the roof. Because of it, the sun kept the rest of the shop dried out !! It had two 4x8 plate glass windows, one faced the front and one faced East. It turned out to be a very comfortable shop. I now have a 3 story hobby barn living in the country. I have much more room but miss the charm of those big plate glass windows on a day when the snow is driving sideways across the yard and the wood burner keeping me in t-shirt !!

I got more toys now but liked the other shop better. I don't envy you fellows still in the pit (basement) but I've been there most my life.

Backyard
03-25-2007, 08:12 AM
My Garage and Shop were built together, one car garage and yes the shop is about 1 1/2 larger than the garage.

Spin Doctor
03-25-2007, 09:24 AM
In a basement shop you have the potential odor problems. Lard Oil and Channel don't mix. The garage shop I would worry about the tires on the cars (yes I put the cars in the garage, that what they build 'em for). A seperate shop building wouldbe nice. But I already have a seperate shed for the lawn mower and such and the city would frown on another outbuilding. IMO a basement shop works best for most of us as long as you are in an area that suit a house to be built with one. If I was out in the country and didn't have to worry about zoning I think a couple of 40ft containers would work great.

John R
03-25-2007, 10:15 AM
Old shop was in the garage .Sometimes the smoke from welding and the smell of cutting oil would get into the house but not a big problem. After Katrina new house with not enough space in the garage to have a shop. So built a stand alone 20 x 32 foot shop at the back of the property. Looks like a garage. Life is good
John R.

Rustybolt
03-25-2007, 10:48 AM
Now as these houses change ownership I see the sales listings, houses nearly identical to my 4 bedroom house suddenly have 6+ bedrooms. Going through these homes I see the basements invariably have been turned into living space with tiny, rat holes bedrooms.

That's funny. Around here they can say it's a finished basement and that's all. They can't list it as an extra bedroom/rooms even if there are. A real estate appraisor can't count anything below grade as living quarters.

In anyevent I/2 of my attached garage is my shop and about 1/4 of my basement. The machines are in the garage and all the benches and measuring stuff is in the basement.

MikeHenry
03-25-2007, 11:28 AM
We live in a townhome with a basement and 2-car garage. The frequently used tools are all in the basement where it's cool year round and rust is not a problem. Tool overflow goes in the garage where there is just a bit of space available in front of our two cars.

I'm out of space now, so the only option for new tool space is selling off existing tools or winning the lottery and buying the unit next door.

Mike

Steve Steven
03-25-2007, 01:34 PM
My shop is currently in the 2 car garage, much to my wifes disgust. Been a sore point for many years she can't keep he new car inside.

I moved from the small unfinished room over the garage with low sloping overhead (where I had 3 different Atlas lathes on a shakey wooden floor) down to the garage when I got my Van Norman #12 and Chinese 12 X 36 lathe, set up a Parkerising shop with large sandblaster, and organized the garage by building a 12 X 24 shed to take all the "stuff" out of the garage.

Shop is big enough, need to throw out a lot of stuff I have horaded over the years (such as 2-3 TONS of lead for bullet casting, which I no longer do) and will do after I retire next month.

Steve

PTSideshow
03-25-2007, 02:37 PM
Built a 24x32 2 story with 10 foot first floor ceiling. and sherline lathe, mill, bech drillpress, bench band saw, rolling mill and assorted benches and small tool in the basement. To much stuff. Going to finsih hooking up the furance in the shop this summer. than I can sort and get rid of the atuff left over and collected for years of different interests and Biz's.
As to your last question I think most of the guy's that have shops,tools and do a lot of things. Had somebody that did it also, or had a shop. Most people that you talk to today look at you sort of sideways when you start talking about really doing something that doesn't invole a Big screen TV, home theater, video's or some sport on TV.
Like with the shop building I built it by myself other than putting the shingles on 14 in 12 pitch. it was done for less than I could have bought the shingles. And poured and finished the drive apon in front of it.
People in todays world no longer take pride in being able to do it myself.
http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d200/ptsideshow/shop1.jpg

7018
03-25-2007, 04:43 PM
I have a 30x45 shop on the edge of the property;It has served me well for the last 12 or so years.

But now that I'm into Machines I have to fight condensation I have to keep them well oiled and a 100 watt bulb on them 24/7.So I adding on a 15x30 just for them.I'm also doing it out of pocket cause I don't want to borrower any money.

The land is sloped so I had to pour retaining walls so I can back fill it.The first picture is the roof and the second is the retaining walls.As soon as I get the last one poured I'll clean up the bags and burn them....
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/7018/Shop%20addition/RoofCealingJoist.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v627/7018/Shop%20addition/ShopAddon.jpg

bfburk
03-25-2007, 05:27 PM
:) My shop is in my basement, about 2000 square feet (Approximately 30 X 66 feet).

My property slopes to the back facing due South and I therefore have a walk out basement with a southern exposure. I have a garage door into the basement which allows me to bring in my machinery. I have an attached greenhouse on the South wall of the basement which supplies light and heat to my shop.

I am retired and life is good.:)

charlie coghill
03-25-2007, 06:04 PM
I guess I am lucky. When we purchased this propertin in 1990 I rented it out and started building the shop. At that time I thought that I had about 15 years to work. As it turned out I had 8 years to work than the company gave us an early retirment.
So this is the shop that I have.:D The shop proper is 40X50 ft. and the car port area is 16X40 ft. with the possibility to enclose the car port.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/kcprecision/SHOPEARLYINTHEMORNING.jpg

Fasttrack
03-25-2007, 07:47 PM
Yes, I do.



:D LOL

I've got my "shop" in the garage. My mom has kindly lent me here garage space for my tools and work bench. The electricity for my welder comes from her laundry room too, so its really through her good graces that i've been able to do anything :)

My dad's got his wood shop in the basement.

lane
03-25-2007, 08:22 PM
Depends on where in the South.

I need to move to Louisiana -- I'd love to have a dedicated shop! :)
No not Louisiana move to East Texas Better area more land out in the country. Marshal ,Waskom are such. We need more HSM this way.

kap pullen
03-25-2007, 11:31 PM
I've been working out of a two car garage.

Can't back up without a goose job in there.

Three lathes, three mills, two presses, Pantograph,

shaper, and two saws are crammed in there.

We have another lathe, cnc mill, and slotter out in "storage".

We are building a 30 x 40 in the side yard.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/kappullen/DSCN0863.jpg

It just looks bigger than the house.

Kap

Chip_er
03-26-2007, 08:42 AM
[QUOTE=harley2003rkc]I don't know how you guys do it. I moved into my first house (this house) when I was 23, I built my shop about a year after I moved in. I put up a 30 x 40 pole barn 100' behind the house.

Can we see a picture of your poll barn harley, I,m thinking on building one!

tomb
03-26-2007, 01:32 PM
I live in the suburbs of northern NJ. My shop is in the basement - the 1 car garage is attached at ground level. I mainly store metal in the garage - along with the compressor and a 18 x 24 surface plate. My laundry room is my main shop area - lathe, knee mill, drill press, 2 work benches. It rarely gets colder than the hi 50s in winter -easily solved with a small space heater. Replacing the cheap garage door with a heavy duty insulated one made a huge difference. Summer can get a bit warm and humid - will be installing one of those $99 A/Cs in a few months.
In the semi-finished area of my basement - glorified storage area - 1 wall is lined with a small shaper, die filer, surface grinder, Atlas mill, disc/belt sander and a portable sandblast cabinet. Only disadvantage is I sometimes get some puddles in the basement - another thing to fix.
When I was house hunting - I insisted on a ground level basement even though I didn't have any machines at the time - just lucky to think ahead.
I'm happy with the situation overall - but would love to have some more space.

Peter N
03-26-2007, 01:53 PM
My workshop is in a single-car, attached garage, about 15' x 8'.
Unfortunately though, I do have to share it with the wifes washing machine.

I must admit I envy the amount of space that most of you have over that side of the pond, although I see that a few have the same restrictions as us.

Peter

edited to resize the shoebox-shop<g>

Malc-Y
03-26-2007, 02:44 PM
My workshop is in a single-car, attached garage, about 15" x 8".
Unfortunately though, I do have to share it with the wifes washing machine.

I must admit I envy the amount of space that most of you have over that side of the pond, although I see that a few have the same restrictions as us.

Peter

15" X 8"!, that's about the size of a shoe box :D . I rather think you mean 15' X 8'

Mine is also in the garage, a brick built one 25' X 12', but it would still be too small if it were twice the size!

Malc.

Peter N
03-26-2007, 03:06 PM
Oops! Well spotted, I've corrected the size now:D

My excuse is I'm still a bit dopy after getting home late after a 3-day binge in Paris.
Where incidentally, I was put to shame by a pair of american pensioners.
I was chatting to them in a bar and complaining how stiff my legs were after climbing the steps up to Montmartre.
They sympathised that they felt the same after climbing to the top of Notre-Dame - which has 50% more steps to climb - and they were at least 20 years older then me :eek:

Peter

John Stevenson
03-26-2007, 03:22 PM
Oops! Well spotted, I've corrected the size now:D

My excuse is I'm still a bit dopy after getting home late after a 3-day binge in Paris.
Where incidentally, I was put to shame by a pair of american pensioners.
I was chatting to them in a bar and complaining how stiff my legs were after climbing the steps up to Montmartre.
They sympathised that they felt the same after climbing to the top of Notre-Dame - which has 50% more steps to climb - and they were at least 20 years older then me :eek:

Peter

Didn't realise there was an engineering museum at the top of Montmartre, bad enough climbing the hill to the Alexandra Palace show.

.

Rumbledoll
03-26-2007, 04:51 PM
I have a seperate shop, about 28 x 32 - but it was interesting getting there. We bought a bare lot on which to build a house, not rural - was county subdivision, now city. Our ides was to first build a shop, live in it while we built a house. Drew up plans for the shop, went down for plans approval - no dice, I could not have an outbuilding without a residence. Figured that I would submit house plans as well, did that, but before they could be approved, I first I needed approval for the septic system. Tried them - they drew out the model septic syatem, said that was the way it would have to be - drainfield was right where I wanted my shop. Back to the planing office, read the small print. Turns out that I could get a mobile home placement permit without septic approval, as for a mobile home, you needed septic approval before they would OK utility hookup. Great -I bought a Mobile home placement permit, then was able to buy a permit to build the shop as an out-building to the mobile home that was supposedly to become my residence. Built the shop, then went back to the septic people, said "Sorry, there's a pre-existing building there", got that permit the way I wanted it, and built the house.

Similarly with the business licence: they were not keen on selling me a business licence for a machine shop, or even a wood shop; but would readily sell me one for a salon (for my wife, limited to six customers a day), and agreed that "incidental" machine work was OK.

I hope this may help someone - it has been my experience that if approached reasonably, the counter-level employees will help you find a way to do something, as long as all of the blanks on the forms are filled in correctly, so it looks good to their bosses. A lot of it is paperwork exercises, and it is as infuriating to the inspectors as it is to you. I have had inspectors say "If I was looking that way, I'd have to say something about that, but I've got far better things to do" - and aslo come up hard against a brick wall, where all you could do was say "Yessir, I'll take care of that". Again, never had anyone actually check again, as long as you sounded as if you knew what you were doing, and agreed to comply cheerfully.

Oh, BTW, this is in Vancouver, WA.

Mike