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J Tiers
04-23-2007, 01:39 AM
Picked up a 100+ year old shop book at a sale. One of the illustrations was a diamond toolholder. Very much the same as the modern one that is advertised (or used to be, seems to be gone now). Showed a square cutter held at an angle to form a diamond face, ground flat.

Angle was such as to allow the cutter to be a 60 deg threading cutter.

I had thought these were relatively new...... But there it was in a 100 year old book, represented as already a well-known item.

John Stevenson
04-23-2007, 03:47 AM
Yes the tangential tool holder.
I believe there is some guy in Oz with a web page selling these for silly money as a new invention.

If you do a search in Model Engineer it crops up at various points in the history of the magazine.

Here's a link to the index for the last 108 years.

http://www.colinusher.info/Indexes/meindex.html

.

Rich Carlstedt
04-23-2007, 06:46 PM
It was also advertised in a 1893 issue of
American Machinist
makes it at least 114 years old.
Some ideas never die !

Rich

Lew Hartswick
04-23-2007, 07:06 PM
I did some playing around with the idea / design and posted some of the
results at http://home.earthlink.net/~lhartswick if anyone is intrested.
...lew...

Weston Bye
04-23-2007, 07:14 PM
I saw someone selling them at NAMES. Bay-Com, I think.

japcas
04-23-2007, 07:19 PM
Bay Com does sell them and they had some of them at the NAMES show. I ordered one about a 2 years ago and I like it a lot. It cuts very well and is very easy to sharpen and hone. You can rough or do finish work with it also.

lane
04-23-2007, 08:41 PM
Had one for a few years they work good . And with a piece of 1/4 square carbide they are even better.

franco
04-23-2007, 09:01 PM
http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/

franco

John Stevenson
04-24-2007, 03:30 AM
http://www.eccentricengineering.com.au/

franco

"This is a unique patented versatile tool designed to work with small to medium lathes for the professional. home hobbyist and model engineers."

?? How can you get a patent on past art? Bull**** or what ?

.

wbleeker
04-24-2007, 03:49 AM
I thought the same thing about the patent BS, a couple of years ago I was at our local college doing a baking course ( for our business) learning how to make all sorts of things that make you fat! Well MacDonalds over here stated advertising Kaiser Rolls with one of their products and they had their little TM beside it, for those of you who don't know a Kaiser Roll just has a pattern in it like a swirl and all you do to get the pattern is push a cutter into the dough before you prove it (let it rise before baking).
I spotted the ad on TV with the TM bit and asked my teacher how do you think they got away with that? He had no idea but I think he made some inquiries through the baking industry and the TM bit disappeared quickly!
Will

Norman Atkinson
04-24-2007, 04:23 AM
Got a lot in Holzapfell but John- or wounded 'skipper' reminds me that something about a 'skiving tool' appeared in Model Engineers Workshop in its early days.

Well, John, you are usually the sauce(?) of such info.

Cheers- my liege- bow, bow, bow-- exeunt-- bow wow

Norm

JCHannum
04-24-2007, 06:22 AM
The holder or sharpening fixture could be patented even though the concept of the presentation of the tool is past art.

Like any other toolholder, it has it's advantages and disadvantages, but it is expensive. It always annoyed me that HSM had a feature article on it, and occasionally touted it in other articles, and Joe Rice, the then HSM editor, markets it through his Baycom company.

lazlo
04-24-2007, 10:31 AM
How can you get a patent on past art? Bull**** or what?

The patent examiners only do a cursory search of prior art during the application process. You can get a lot of stupid stuff past them, like the patent for "Swinging on a Swing" and the IBM patent for a method for waiting in line for the restroom.

Our patent attorneys always tell us that a patent isn't worth anything until it's been challenged in court.

The flip side is also true. There are lawyers who go around buying-up dead startup companies to get the patent portfolio. Then they blanket all the big corporations with patent infringement letters. It's a common form of corporate "greenmale."

At least once a month I'm asked by our corporate legal team to review a patent that was presented by an IP holding company that my company was infringing. Half the time, the patent claims aren't even remotely related to my company's business (CPU design/architecture/manufacture) -- the greenmale lawyers are just trolling. They do this to all the large corporations, hoping that they'll get an out-of-court, cash payout.

lazlo
04-24-2007, 10:40 AM
The holder or sharpening fixture could be patented even though the concept of the presentation of the tool is past art.

You also have to look at his claims. If the diamond holder itself has been patented, he could have patented any number of minor enhancements, like the clamping mechanism or some such.

The title of the patent has little to do with it -- both patents can legitimately be titled "An Aparatus for a Diamond Toolholder." It's the claims section that's legally binding.

DR
04-24-2007, 11:17 AM
"This is a unique patented versatile tool designed to work with small to medium lathes for the professional. home hobbyist and model engineers."

?? How can you get a patent on past art? Bull**** or what ?

.


You'd have to know exactly what part of the invention is patended. Maybe the holder for the bit? And in what country is the patent filed?

Does the tool actually say the patent number on it?

I believe in the USA it's not legal to claim a patent or a patent pending unless the proper paper work is in hand.

Many times I've heard the word "patended" used in conversation to indicate a clever idea worthy of patenting, but not to mean a patent had been granted.

lazlo
04-24-2007, 11:31 AM
I believe in the USA it's not legal to claim a patent or a patent pending unless the proper paper work is in hand.

That's true, but "patent pending" just means that the PTO has received your submission and given you an application number.
It typically takes 3 - 5 years for the application process after that, depending on how many times you have to revise the claims.

dp
04-24-2007, 11:40 AM
Frank Ford has a clever tangential tool and holder here:
http://www.frets.com/FRETSPages/Machining/QuickTricks/ToolPostFile/toolpostfile.html

Mr. Gadgetbuilder has one here:
http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/ToolHolders.html#Tangent

I've replicated both with good results.

franco
04-24-2007, 09:56 PM
John S,

Another example of old technology being re-patented:

http://www.arbortech.com.au/view/woodworking-information

The Arbortec Industrial cutter wheel - mine marked Patent Applied For - for use on an angle grinder shown in the link is identical in principle to the cutter wheel used on Blanchard copy lathes of about 1850s vintage, such as the gunstock one preserved in the Science Museum. Though smaller in diameter and having three rather than six cutters (it runs at about twice the speed of the Science Museum one), it uses identically designed center fastened conical cutters, which can be turned to present a fresh cutting face when they get dull.

Oddly enough Arbortec also make a lighter duty cutter which, though not identical, bears a strong resemblance to the earlier hooked knife Blanchard cutter wheels.

Incidentally, both these cutter wheel types work very well for their intended use - wood sculpture.

franco

laddy
05-15-2007, 08:23 PM
Any plans available to build your own with specific demensions??? Thanks Fred

Oldguy
05-15-2007, 08:44 PM
Here are a couple of links to info on the diamond tool:

http://homepage.mac.com/bhagenbuch/machine/pages/freeby.html

http://www.gadgetbuilder.com/ToolHolders.html#Tangent

Hope this helps.

Glenn

laddy
05-16-2007, 05:44 AM
Thanks Glen!

Your Old Dog
05-16-2007, 07:03 AM
I believe in the USA it's not legal to claim a patent or a patent pending unless the proper paper work is in hand.

I know for sure that you can't claim "patent applied for" unless you have already initiated paperwork. Your intentions aren't good enough!

Evan
05-16-2007, 09:24 AM
?? How can you get a patent on past art? Bull**** or what ?

It could be what in the US is called a "Design Patent". This patents the appearance of the product rather than the function. Prior art plays no part and the functional aspects of the device are not protected as they are with a utility patent.

oldtiffie
03-26-2008, 06:54 AM
If I recall correctly, Lane made several recently using old end-mills.

Worked very well too.

Any chance of posting that post and pics Lane please?

lane
03-26-2008, 09:53 PM
Here you go Oldtiffie.
Look for old post( Necessary Is The Mother of invention) BY Lane

oldtiffie
03-26-2008, 10:41 PM
Here you go Oldtiffie.
Look for old post( Necessary Is The Mother of invention) BY Lane

Thanks Lane - lots.

I hope that all is OK

The link is:http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=26214&highlight=Necessary+Is+The+Mother+of+invention

That link/thread is every bit as excellent as I thought it was/is.

I am very pleased to see you back on the forum with your work.

There has been too much reminiscing about the "excellence" of people from "long ago" when we have a real live one right here!!

You.

And just in case some don't know, had forgotten or don't believe me go to these links:
http://www.cp-tel.net/mary/mary-index.htm
http://www.cp-tel.net/mary/Lanesframes.htm
http://www.cp-tel.net/mary/Montys.htm

Sorry if I embarrass you Lane - didn't mean to - but I did mean what I said and said what I mean.

Please keep those posts coming.

dpasek
03-30-2008, 09:02 PM
?? How can you get a patent on past art? Bull**** or what ?
It could be what in the US is called a "Design Patent". This patents the appearance of the product rather than the function. Prior art plays no part and the functional aspects of the device are not protected as they are with a utility patent.

Another possibility is that it really *is* BS.

One could legitimately claim that something is patented even if the patent has long since expired, as long as the seller does not claim to be an assignee or licensee.
In cases of that sort, the patent number will not be cited.
Then, after all, it *did* get patented. By someone. At some time.
Such a claim is nothing but marketing hype. Most of the gullible won't bother to investigate the claim but might be impressed enough to put up their money.

Regards,
Dennis