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Your Old Dog
07-12-2007, 08:05 AM
I'm asking because I frequent this machinist forum where I note some negative attitude when none is really called for. Would eating more greens help to return the board to civility or would the bickering and jealousies persist. ( I understand arguments on safety are for the benefit of all )

I used to work with a fellow who thought he was a "know-it-all". The problem was that he truly wasn't. On this board I see about 5 or 6 folks who could be considered a "know-it-all" by many but the difference here is these folks truly are the sharpest knives in the drawer. So this begs the question, is it the nature of bright people to be jealous of one another, or, is it just that having an interest in things precise like machining that every sentence comes under the scrutiny of a microscope?

I like it here because I'm getting an education I couldn't get anywhere else. I find I've picked up info from everyone who post on this forum so I'd hate to even see one post not made because someone was ticked off. And let me add, it's getting to the point for me that I feel if I make a positive or neutral post on one persons thread that I'm "taking up sides" ? I don't like that and I shouldn't have to feel that way.

Maybe it's just me and I'm reading too much between the lines. I'm kind of dense sometimes so if you kid with me make sure and drop in a " :D " face so I know you are kidding!

Evan
07-12-2007, 08:26 AM
Machining isn't exactly a team sport. As well it takes a modicum of intellectual sharpness to avoid removing oneself from the typing pool (and this forum). Some also have a distinct fondness for guns and other things that go Bang. So, you have a motley collection of individualists accustomed to working alone that would rather make noise that wakes the neighbours than go see Dancing with Wolves again.

Just what did you expect? :D

A.K. Boomer
07-12-2007, 10:20 AM
YOD you dont give yourself enough credit, Your insight is incredible, iv actually mellowed very much and i needed too, the reason? ---- I wasnt eating enough greens,,,
But I also believe there is way more than 5 or 6 "sharp knives" around here, and I think a little rib jabbing is actually very healthy, it gets the best out of people, Its a fine line though, im finally realizing that, there is a difference between getting someones best reply or throwing them into a total defensive mode, that being said there are somedays when i wished i would backed off on the veggies because I may have come accross to mellow, and its like life on the serrengetti around here, one little sign of weakness and the next thing you know your missing a good part of your hind quarters --- dont worry nature has a way of taking care of things, and if not --- nothing goes to waste.:eek:

Swarf&Sparks
07-12-2007, 10:48 AM
Me, I have a theory.
I reckon you need more vitamin C.

So follow my example, I'm off to put a splash of tomato juice in my ethanol. Then I won't give a rat's arse about character assassination and I'll get back to thinking about the next job.

Renegade
07-12-2007, 10:52 AM
I mostly just sit back read/watch some of the members that like to pick at each other, sometimes called for sometimes quite childish but always entertaining.
I heard a phrase as a little kid it went this" Better to keep your mouth shut and thought of a fool than open it and prove it":D

TGTool
07-12-2007, 10:59 AM
Greens, eh? I would have thought it was a shortage of prunes that produced some of the personalities. :rolleyes:

J.Ramsey
07-12-2007, 11:37 AM
Maybe a shortage of Preparation-H to go with the prunes?:D

Your Old Dog
07-12-2007, 01:20 PM
........ there are somedays when i wished i would backed off on the veggies because I may have come accross to mellow, ..........

I suppose you're right. There's a photography forum that I frequent and if you don't make all your post read like they came from "Mary Poppins" or "Pollyanna" they think you are ripping someone up!! Kind of the opposite of what I feel here sometimes ! This is actually better I suppose as it does have some entertainment value to it :D

I guess the other side of the coin is the knives I'm concerned about are able to take a punch and not run away :D

Wirecutter
07-12-2007, 01:41 PM
I kinda like the smart-alecky attitude of the board here overall. Members don't tolerate a "know-it-all" that doesn't.

People in cars and on the intenet are sometimes inclined to act as if they're anonymous and can do whatever. You'll see someone pick their nose or get impatient with people in their car, but they won't do that in person say, at the grocery store.

In both cases, I try to resist that tendency. I try not to say something that I wouldn't say to all of you if we were standing in the same room. When I'm driving, I try to act as if the knucklehead in the car ahead is actually my boss or something. Don't honk or flip them off - just go around.

Maybe I'm an optimist, but I believe that I've observed that civility is infectious. I've seen this in traffic jams. I'm talking about heavily travelled roads that are occupied more or less by the same hoard of commuters everyday, and occasionally, there's an unexpected glitch in the route. I don't know if it comes from good-naturedness or resignation, but it sure is a better approach than aggression.

-Mark

mklotz
07-12-2007, 01:55 PM
Read rec.crafts.metalworking on Usenet for a week or so. Then, when you return here, you'll think you're in a nice, warm, fuzzy corner of webworld.

Your Old Dog
07-12-2007, 04:42 PM
OK Marv, I'll concede your point after reading this there. :D


We did something similar one 4th with a 55 gallon barrel, some gasoline,
some oxygen, and a spark plug. We blew out some windows in our house,
lessened our hearing for a couple of days, and had most of the police
department and fire department out there.


But all we could say when they asked questions was, "huh?"


Luckily, we had time to clean up the pieces we could find before they got
there.


It was loud, and the fireball was awesome.

Alistair Hosie
07-12-2007, 05:08 PM
just so long as you dont think those who get invited to the Google staff dance are the sharpest knives:DAlistair

IOWOLF
07-12-2007, 05:29 PM
Yummy. Greeeeeens.

Gimmeee a bunch, as long as they aren't Brussels sprouts, asparagus,broccoli. mustard greens, or collard greens.

kc5ezc
07-12-2007, 05:50 PM
I am going to fix me a pot of greens right now! Olive oil then the greens then add about a fifth of good white wine (reserving a couple of swigs for the cook) and cook until tender. Gives new meaning to the phrase, "Pot Liquor."
John Burchett
in Byng OK

old-biker-uk
07-12-2007, 05:56 PM
Prunes - now you're talking my kind of language. (always assuming they are matured in 40 proof Alcohol for a while)
They don't count as greens but the Wimbledon staple of strawberries & cream can be vastly improved with a little (or a lot) of Liqueur a la Frais des Bois
Happy independence day (or am I too late ?) (maybe too many prunes ?)
Mark

Evan
07-12-2007, 06:01 PM
just so long as you dont think those who get invited to the Google staff dance are the sharpest knives:DAlistair

Hmm. A lot of questions can be answered by a simple search. It doesn't have to be via Google although it is one of the best search engines. I use it all the time to fill in gaps in my knowledge. For instance, I know that helium is less dense than air and also know why but I cannot recall the exact density. So, I look it up. I don't have the table of electronegativity memorized but know that zinc is more electronegative than aluminum. If I need to know how much then I look it up. Et cetera ad infinitum. Google isn't a library or the librarian either. It is merely a means to an end, information. The net is chock full of good information as well as trash and opinion. The trick is to recognize which is which.

john hobdeclipe
07-12-2007, 07:12 PM
I eat a well rounded diet of green stuff, fruits, cereals, dairy products, chocolate, what little meat I can afford, and a sufficient amount of white wine to insure proper digestion.

Nonetheless, I have a bad attitude. I've had a bad attitude all my life, and I know this, because I've been told this all my life. Every school teacher informed me of my "attitude problem." Everyone I ever worked for sooner or later discussed my attitude. Hah! What do they know, the bunch of blithering idiots?

I will continue to have a bad attitude until I breathe my last, and I'm comfortable with that.

Nothing, I repeat, NOTHING will change my freakin' bad attitude.

Although sex and ale do tend to take the edge off.

Evan
07-12-2007, 10:08 PM
John, you need this bumper sticker:

I don't discriminate, I hate everyone equally.

Me, I want one of those new licence plate frames with the LED scrolling message bar so you can "Send messages to others...".

Yeah, like "BACK OFF DIKHEAD"

ckelloug
07-12-2007, 10:53 PM
Hmm,

I never did get invited to the Google staff dance, but I did once go to the E-bay Christmas party. It was in the tech museum in San Jose. Good hors d' overes too.

While there are a few fights on this board, it seems like people just get excited. The only times It can be a bit grating is when people are personally disrespectful and just plain mean when it wasn't necessary. In the few months I've been here I've only seen a few instances that seemed truly uncalled for.

The sarcasm here however is a hoot!

--Cameron

darryl
07-13-2007, 03:00 AM
Greens- that'll just make you envious :) I don't need to read no stinkin story about your new mill or lathe. I'm tired of hearin about your truckload of scrap metal you got paid to take away. And please, quit your braggin about those crappy projects y'all are harpin about. It's about time we got off this stupid metal stuff and went totally OT. The only scrap I wanna hear about is the one between micky moron and harry hothead. What's with you bunch of Knife-sharp lathe tools anyway? Cncnery got you makin freakin nice parts and 27.5 tooth gears- ah through em all in the scrap where they belong. thump thump (267 over 220) thump thump (gotta calm down) thump thump (gonna have a heart attack) (freakin stress) thump thump

See what I mean? I ate some greens today, look what it did to me. Noooooo, no more greeeeens. More doughnuts, mmmmm. And beer.

Actually, not drinking enough water will make a person irritable, amongst myriad other things, lack of greens included. It seems that lately the foodstuffs coming from china would be capable of irritating one. Or killing one, or more. That would be quite irritating.

Evan
07-13-2007, 04:03 AM
Oh crap. Here I thought the topic title was "On Topic: Can eating more greens improve your attitude?" Others must be reading it as altitude. This explains the reports of consumption producing a mellowing effect. :D


Or killing one, or more.

Or more? Please elucidate. Dying is bad enough. I am having a hard time imagining additional consequences.

madman
07-13-2007, 06:21 AM
Up here in Canada we roll our Greens dont eat em. Well maybe cookies once in a while.

HTRN
07-13-2007, 07:24 AM
Machining is, pretty much a solitary profession, so the people that don't go nuts from the lack of social interaction, tend to be, shall we say, not prone to idle chatter? It isn't any wonder that some of the best machinists I've met are some of the worst human beings - cranky, grouchy, foul tempered sons of b%%ch's that ever picked up a mike.

And to be honest, this forum is relatively well mannered, even though it can get rough and tumble sometimes. I don't think it's outright hostility, but rather not suffering fools gladly. For the most part, everybody pretty know where they stand, and you don't see too much of the backstabbing that goes on at some forums, like using the Private message function to spread slander about others behind their back.(that happened on one forum I frequent recently, where the member in question was badmouthing the host, not realizing that the Administrator can read all private messages.)



HTRN

Evan
07-13-2007, 07:58 AM
Machining is, pretty much a solitary profession, so the people that don't go nuts from the lack of social interaction, tend to be, shall we say, not prone to idle chatter? It isn't any wonder that some of the best machinists I've met are some of the worst human beings - cranky, grouchy, foul tempered sons of b%%ch's that ever picked up a mike.
Heh, pretty much as I said. I need to get me one of these to discourage interruptions in the shop.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/boarmask.jpg

http://cgi.ebay.ca/WELDING-HELMET-MASK-WILD-BUSH-PIG-RAZORBACK-PIGGY-PIGSY_W0QQitemZ200127903438QQihZ010QQcategoryZ4641 3QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem#ebayphotohosting

loose nut
07-13-2007, 10:34 AM
some of the best machinists I've met are some of the worst human beings - cranky, grouchy, foul tempered sons of b%%ch's that ever picked up a mike


HTRN
you make that sound like a bad thing!

and eating rabbit food won't help it,
you no good son of a #$%^&
don't make come after you
I know were you live,
were's my gun damn it !!!!!

pcarpenter
07-13-2007, 01:15 PM
I agree with Evan...the personality type that drives us to be interested in the sort of stuff we, here, like can tend to also make us look at things with scrutiny. Its the same drive that causes us to look at stuff and try to figure out how to make it better...that causes us to do the same with other people's stuff. Doing this with other people's ideas is going to set you up for a bit of push and shove from time to time. Its probably best to challenge someone else's ideas politely, but just not saying anything at all might be less kind than helping to prevent an accident or turning something into scrap.

Me...I don't take offense at this sort of thing. Someone could save me a bit of heartache or frustration that way. I may post something without asking for opinions and still manage to get an opinion that could prevent a disaster. I also know that I am free to put aside advice that I deem not to be good advice.

If someone posts a pic of their work and you then follow with 10 pages of "nice job" messages, the forum will get pretty boring, too.

My dad always said "Remember...advice is worth what you pay for it and mine's free". Not always true...sometimes free advice is worth a lot more. I also know we have gotten some of the most lame advice here at work from paid consultants who later appeared to have a smaller skillset than we had internally.

Just my $.02
Paul

HTRN
07-14-2007, 02:40 AM
you make that sound like a bad thing!

On the contrary, I was just pointing out that what personality quirks make a good machinist, and what good personality quirks make a good "people person" are 180 degrees out of sync with each other.

One of the things I really like about working in machine shops is that usually, I have a tremendous amount of freedom on how to deal with the job(IE how things get done), and that I can go days without people bothering me. I once spent 4 days at the first place I worked, without speaking a word to anybody - clock in, work, clock out. Try and do THAT at a desk job!


HTRN

Carl
07-14-2007, 03:24 AM
Can eating more greens improve your attitude?

...proper use of "greens" for a serious attitude adjustment...


http://www.time-is-fun.com/huge-joint-101.jpg

J.Ramsey
07-14-2007, 04:00 AM
Carl
Where do you suppose they found the Zig-Zag rolling paper for a doobie of that size..........I'd guess they would use fireplace tongs for a roach clip.;)

darryl
07-14-2007, 04:07 AM
Killing one, or more- I was referring to the recent bad food incident somewhere in the south where scores of people have died from some imported foodstuffs. I don't recall the details, but it sure seemed to disappear from the news n a hurry.

Back to my fun with words earlier, I do realize that if one person has died, then further irritation of that one individual would be difficult. If, however, the saying 'enough to raise the dead' has some meaning, then surely we as a scourge upon this planet have approached 'enough' in sufficient quantities to suddenly find ourselves outnumbered by legions of walking corpses, those whom we've irritated even after their passing. Hmm. I bet they've heard and remembered everything that has been said about them during their absence.

There's nowhere you can hide.

Now what was this thread about?

ulav8r
07-15-2007, 01:30 AM
Eating more greens would sure make my attitude worse. Especially turnip greens or poke salad with scrambled eggs. Talk about awful.:mad:

lane
07-15-2007, 01:43 AM
I Don`t eat nothing Green. and I`m one ornery SOB some times. or most of the time at work , and home too so says the wife.

TECHSHOP
07-15-2007, 04:45 AM
Is all the pictures of old machines, little steam engines, defective power cords, workbenches, and, and!

Does anybody really enjoy this stuff?

Evan
07-15-2007, 05:12 AM
defective power cords...
Does anybody really enjoy this stuff?

Did I seem happy about that? Chopping up power cords isn't exactly one of my favorite pastimes. :rolleyes:

;)

Your Old Dog
07-15-2007, 08:11 AM
Did I seem happy about that? Chopping up power cords isn't exactly one of my favorite pastimes. :rolleyes:

;)

I think he meant it in the facetious sense! Of course we all care enough about it to read it and comment on it. :D I suppose it depends on the mood you're in when you read it. If for example while you were posting a good answer that took you some time for Alan Smiths woodlot query and noticed the pungent smell of Bear Dog **** on your shoes you might be in a sour mood for a few minutes ! This mood might easily effect your next few post until you either clean your shoes, kick the dog or get used to the smell :D

BTW, I know you take a beating on your ability to effectively use Google but I for one appreciate it very much. I'm not the least bit jealous that you are able and willing to cough up an answer when some others, myself included, are not.

AACIP (and another case in point) Thanks for googling to find that "The church of St. Mary in the hollow of white hazel trees near the rapid whirlpool by St. Tysilio's of the red cave" solves the riddle that Sir John posted. I thought the word was made up!

Evan
07-15-2007, 10:21 AM
Dang, don't smilies mean anything any more? This is a poor medium for exchanging all those subtle but significant hints and clues to what the "speaker" intends.

You know, if I wanted to make a hobby of chopping power cords I could. Out in the barn I have a box with a couple of hundred computer power cords in it. I also have the perfect saw for the job...

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/EmoticonBouncing.gif

John Stevenson
07-15-2007, 10:30 AM
AACIP (and another case in point) Thanks for googling to find that "The church of St. Mary in the hollow of white hazel trees near the rapid whirlpool by St. Tysilio's of the red cave" solves the riddle that Sir John posted. I thought the word was made up!
Philistine...........:D


.

Your Old Dog
07-15-2007, 01:33 PM
Philistine...........:D


.

Sir John, yet once again you are bending my 12th grade education around a responce that I have no clue what it means! Can someone tell me if I was just praised or insulted? I did a Google and after much reading I am still wanting for an answer! I'm going to push aside all my worldly possessions and pursue an answer.

As my daughters boyfriend said as I asked them the meaning of Philistine, "Yea dammet, if you're going to insult me come down to my level" :D

Norman, where the hell are you? Lend me a hand :D :D

John Stevenson
07-15-2007, 02:39 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philistinism

But it did have a smiley at the end :D

.

Your Old Dog
07-15-2007, 02:49 PM
........is said to despise or undervalue art, beauty, intellectual content, and/or spiritual values. Philistines are also said to be materialistic

Well that being the case and the fact that it was punctuated with a smiley and not a sneering emoticon I'll take you at your word that you were kidding !

I worked with a guy who was so conceded (a reporter) that when I got riled at him I could say absolutely anything to him no matter how degrading because he just knew he was so great that I could only be kidding !!

So Sir John, I hope you, Bohemian that you are, have a great day but I hope Gert shuts you off tonight ! :D

rbregn
07-15-2007, 11:52 PM
Since I moved to China I have eaten more greens, then all of my previous lives combined! Hasn't helped me any. Thank the lord I can find Jack Daniels in the liquor store!:D I have a one drink of that at night to take the edge off!

jim davies
07-16-2007, 12:12 AM
Well it didn't work so well for Adolf Hitler, did it? Apparently even his "inner circle" were bummed out by his interminable rambling monologues interspersed with the vegan's gift [flatulence] delivered hour after hour as they all wished to kill and grille something. And then he died from lead poisoning...

Ya know, even though Even got it wrong on the Avro Arrow and the Area Rule, he has taped this one pretty accurately. Mechanics are like Machinists, too. Not a group profession. Just you against the time clock [and those idiots behind the parts counter.] So considering the natures of those drawn here, I think we're pretty civil. And generous with knowledge...

J Tiers
07-16-2007, 10:44 AM
I'm not at all sure it is entirely a personality type issue that is due to food. Some is type, and some is training.

There are "hard" professions (and hobbies) and there are 'soft" ones. personality type DOES direct a person into one or the other, but then training takes over and finishes the job.

Engineering and machining are "hard", in the sense that there is really a right result and a wrong result. It meets requirements, or it does not. You can't "negotiate a settlement" with the QC guy, and you shouldn't be able to.

Other professions, like politics, or sales, or law, maybe, are "soft", in the sense that there is no definite line beyond which the result is 'wrong". You can always negotiate a settlement, bend your standards, concede some points in order to get your desired result in other ones.

People who get used to one sort of profession often can't really adapt (or don't care to in certain cases) to the other.

The real problem is when these two mix.

The "negotiator type" can't understand why "we can't all just get along". They don't understand hard facts and unmoving limits.

They don't understand what they call an "argument", which is ANY discussion of rights and wrongs beyond the point at which each side has simply stated their points.

They regard EVERYTHING as negotiable, and deny ANY unmovable facts (at least in the extreme). "Ok that's your opinion" is an answer for them, and they would say that if you asserted that liquid water can get things wet. To them, it is just as valid to have as your opinion that liquid water CANNOT get things wet.

obviously they cannot get along in an environment of hard facts etc. To them an "argument" is the worst thing there is, horribly abrasive, dysfunctional, anti-social, even sociopathic, behavior.

The person from the "hard" profession will "argue" about the validity of a fact and not consider that to be at all unusual, certainly not a problem.

Such a person will carry the argument into areas which are more "gray" like safety issues, the now deleted saw thread being an example.

That obviously horrifies the "soft profession" person.

To mix well, they have to give a bit, but curiously, even the "soft" profession folks have trouble with that.

Your Old Dog
07-16-2007, 11:05 AM
I'm not at all sure it is entirely a personality type issue that is due to food. Some is type, and some is training.

There are "hard" professions (and hobbies) and there are 'soft" ones. personality type DOES direct a person into one or the other, but then training takes over and finishes the job.

Engineering and machining are "hard", in the sense that there is really a right result and a wrong result. It meets requirements, or it does not. You can't "negotiate a settlement" with the QC guy, and you shouldn't be able to.

Other professions, like politics, or sales, or law, maybe, are "soft", in the sense that there is no definite line beyond which the result is 'wrong". You can always negotiate a settlement, bend your standards, concede some points in order to get your desired result in other ones.

People who get used to one sort of profession often can't really adapt (or don't care to in certain cases) to the other.

The real problem is when these two mix.

The "negotiator type" can't understand why "we can't all just get along". They don't understand hard facts and unmoving limits.

They don't understand what they call an "argument", which is ANY discussion of rights and wrongs beyond the point at which each side has simply stated their points.

They regard EVERYTHING as negotiable, and deny ANY unmovable facts (at least in the extreme). "Ok that's your opinion" is an answer for them, and they would say that if you asserted that liquid water can get things wet. To them, it is just as valid to have as your opinion that liquid water CANNOT get things wet.

obviously they cannot get along in an environment of hard facts etc. To them an "argument" is the worst thing there is, horribly abrasive, dysfunctional, anti-social, even sociopathic, behavior.

The person from the "hard" profession will "argue" about the validity of a fact and not consider that to be at all unusual, certainly not a problem.

Such a person will carry the argument into areas which are more "gray" like safety issues, the now deleted saw thread being an example.

That obviously horrifies the "soft profession" person.

To mix well, they have to give a bit, but curiously, even the "soft" profession folks have trouble with that.

Reads to me like you are redefining our world as a digital - black and white world instead of an analogue one with much grey area? Digital exist in mans world because it's convenient and easier to make sense out of but the universe is analog and at least to me it appears to work in constant motion even if at a snails pace when compared to our lifespan ! :D Sounds more to me like the techs are chasing something that doesn't exist, perfection. But I suppose, in the end, out answers are the summation of our lifes experiances and not necessarily the only answer.

I also sense that a lot of high mechanical aptitude type folks can't argue on one plane, be it theory or practical application. When I debate issues with my friend from Motorola he is constantly jumping from one plane to the other to dance around me. !! I think I see some of that here.

J Tiers
07-16-2007, 11:26 AM
Reads to me like you are redefining our world as a digital - black and white world instead of an analogue one with much grey area? Digital exist in mans world because it's convenient and easier to make sense out of but the universe is analog and at least to me it appears to work in constant motion even if at a snails pace when compared to our lifespan !

Not at all......

The 'wrong and right" issue is confined to certain areas, and exists (in this case) not due to a feature of the universe, but due to a set of human-made specifications.

But if the tolerance is 0.0005, and the part is 0.002 out, it's wrong. it won't fit no matter what. "Negotiations" won't change that, and it isn't something that is easily fixed by a price abatement, etc.


In the 'soft" professions, with a similar problem you can make a price adjustment, or other "settlement" to take care of the matter.


Where these meet is the place where you adjust the specification because they were too tight. That is a form of "negotiation".

But that isn't always possible without a complete re-design. So it is possible that the specifications are indeed fixed and unmovable, at least if you care whether the product works or not.

Don't suppose that I am imposing the 'right/wrong" idea on the universe. That is the domain of religious philosophers, and I am excluding that domain from this discussion.

HTRN
07-16-2007, 01:20 PM
People who get used to one sort of profession often can't really adapt (or don't care to in certain cases) to the other.

My one brief foray into office work drove me nuts - so much of it was a grey area.. When working in the shop, it was black and white - either it was right, or it was wrong, and if it was wrong, it was either rework(rarely), or it was scrap. The judgement call nature of working in the office drove me nuts..


HTRN

Your Old Dog
07-16-2007, 06:39 PM
But if the tolerance is 0.0005, and the part is 0.002 out, it's wrong. it won't fit no matter what. "Negotiations" won't change that, and it isn't something that is easily fixed by a price abatement, etc.



.

Though it pains me to do so, I'll concede to this point ! :D

Evan
07-16-2007, 10:32 PM
Ya know, even though Even got it wrong on the Avro Arrow and the Area Rule,

Jim, thanks for bringing that up again. :D

I have found something on that which is pretty hard to refute. The Avro Arrow was designed to area rule, it just doesn't look like it.

Quote from one of the original designers:



December, 1958

The Canadian Approach to All-Weather
Interceptor Development


by
J. C. FLOYD, A.M.C.T., P.Eng., F.C.A.l., M.I.A.S., F.R.Ac.S.
(Vice-President, Engineering, Avro Aircraft Limited, Canada)

....

AREA RULE
A great deal of theoretical work was done on the application of Area Rule to the CF-105 and during the early design stages certain changes were incorporated in the aircraft to take advantage of the results of our area rule work.
Eleven plastic models were made at 1/30th scale and cuts were taken on these to represent various Mach numbers. The cuts were then checked on a planimeter, the results fed into a digital computer, and plots were made around the aircraft at 0deg., 45deg., 90deg., 135deg. and 180deg.. Most of the results were obtained around a Mach number of 1.5 and, as a result of this extensive investigation, we sharpened the radar nose, thinned down the intake lips, reduced the cross-section area of the fuselage below the canopy, and added an extension fairing at the rear, to smooth out the bumps in the area rule curve (Fig. 6).


http://www.avroarrow.org/Jim%20Floyd/JamesFloydRAeS3.html

jim davies
07-17-2007, 02:04 AM
Couldn't resist pulling your leg on that oldy.

How can it be area ruled if it doesn't show on the fuselage?

Maybe it is area ruled in the same way the kitchen area here is ruled by SWMBO

Evan
07-17-2007, 03:48 AM
You are expecting to see a coke bottle shape. But the CF-105 was a delta wing so that shape isn't appropriate for area rule design. It actually does show on the fuselage as the fuselage becomes progressively smaller toward the aft as the wing area becomes larger. It's the front half of the coke bottle shape.

John Stevenson
07-17-2007, 05:09 AM
Jim, thanks for bringing that up again. :D

I have found something on that which is pretty hard to refute. The Avro Arrow was designed to area rule, it just doesn't look like it.

Quote from one of the original designers:


OH no here we go A-gain [ best Forrest Gump voice ]

David? do you have a spare pit bull collar and lead ?

Rockrat ? do you have a big steel spike and chain ?

Anyone handy around the BC area to go fit it and hammer the spike in so the chain stops about 2 foot short of the keyboard ?

.

Evan
07-17-2007, 07:05 AM
Very appropriate post in a thread about grumpiness.

IOWOLF
07-17-2007, 07:38 AM
No ,the thread is about veggies and attitude, only when you post it becomes about Grumpiness. ;)

Evan
07-17-2007, 07:56 AM
I didn't bring it up again. I do think grumpiness is an attitude. What I also see is that people tend to take the discussions here a little too seriously at times, myself included. At the metaphorical flick of a switch it all goes away and real priorities again dominate.

John Stevenson
07-17-2007, 08:22 AM
No ,the thread is about veggies and attitude, only when you post it becomes about Grumpiness. ;)

Wuff :D :D


.

Scishopguy
07-17-2007, 02:36 PM
Following this thread through it's many tangents brings to mind a response from and old Saturday night Live skit, "Jane, you ignorant slut!" Some folks get all defensive if anyone offers an opinion that differs from their own. Yes, this is a personality trait of machinists. I have worked for some real grouchy bas***ds but I respected them very much. Their mindset was that they saw the answer to the problem clearly and could not fathom why I didn't. Some times there were other issues, like their bosses were breathing down their necks. The "head shed" is not notoriously understanding when it comes to their self inflicted time schedules. None the less, I look at this as a place to share ideas for the sake of exchange. There should not be any personallities getting their panties in a wad because their idea was not cheered as the word of god. I have learned a lot here about the areas of machine work that I don't have much experience with. Lets face it, the trade is so vast that no one here can honestly claim to know it all. If you do, you need to eat more greens. :) What is interesting is that you all are doing different things and coming up with a variety of ways to solve problems that may be simple or difficult but few are wrong.

jim davies
07-17-2007, 03:37 PM
I guess I did the internet equiv. of quietly dropping a stinky and leaving the room. Sorry.


Not.


Well, a little bit.

J Tiers
07-17-2007, 07:28 PM
If more folks had the attitude of "well, p*** on them if they can't take a joke", even if the joke is on them, we'd do better.

You learn to deal with it on the playground, usually...... you know the system, if someone questions your "orientation" (common on playgrounds), give 'em a hug and try to plant one.... they won't do it again...... if they blame you for 'letting one", tell them it's nothing compared to the one last week...... etc, etc.....

Once they see something gets your goat, it's all over. So don't let it.

Magic9r
07-17-2007, 07:32 PM
It's OK if it gets your goat, it's just if it gets up your nose and on your tits as well that's a problem :D
Nick

IOWOLF
07-17-2007, 07:33 PM
If more folks had the attitude of "well, p*** on them if they can't take a joke", even if the joke is on them, we'd do better.

You learn to deal with it on the playground, usually...... you know the system, if someone questions your "orientation" (common on playgrounds), give 'em a hug and try to plant one.... they won't do it again...... if they blame you for 'letting one", tell them it's nothing compared to the one last week...... etc, etc.....

Once they see something gets your goat, it's all over. So don't let it.


:rolleyes: