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aostling
07-14-2007, 07:37 PM
The nice thing about walking around the Jerome mining museum is the soothing background noise coming from this engine. Idling, it fires about once every six or seven seconds.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/th_8d9d812a.jpg (http://s168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/?action=view&current=8d9d812a.flv)

The operator is seen here, changing teeth on the saw blade. Interesting hat -- I wonder where I can buy one.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/sawmiller.jpg

Rookie machinist
07-14-2007, 08:10 PM
I was there about 7 years ago, same ol' guy was running the machines. Do they still have all the old trucks up on the hill? Cool place to visit if your in the area.

aostling
07-15-2007, 12:01 AM
I was there about 7 years ago, same ol' guy wasrunning the machines. Do they still have all the old trucks up on the hill?

Now I feel like an idiot, calling a make-and-break engine a "hit-and-miss." What was I thinking?

Here is a Packard truck. I never knew they made 'em.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/Packardtruck1.jpg

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/Packardtruck2.jpg

Peter S
07-15-2007, 12:58 AM
Aostling, thanks for the interesting photos - looks like a great place to visit. Is Jerome in Arizona?

There look to be some interesting big engines behind the Packard - possibly an opposed piston Fairbanks Morse, and something else large as well. It looks a little like a compressor, but may be an engine. I can't quite make out the writing on the sign or the crankcase. "Chicago....."

I hadn't heard of a Packard truck either, but it reminds me of an excellent cut-down Packard I have seen in a NZ collection. Unfortunately, I just heard the owner (Graeme Craw) passed away in the last few days, he has a fantastic collection of Packards, including early V-12s and this unrestored roadster pickup. Cut-down cars were pretty common here, my father had a straight eight Jordan truck, once a luxury car, used for pushing the hay rake. But the Packard at the Jerome museum certainly looks like a real heavy duty chassis, not a cut-down car.

I am not sure what you mean about the stationary engine - "hit and miss" is a valid term for a certain type of engine, others have governor control of a fuel valve etc, I don't recall "make and break" in reference to speed control, can anyone enlighten me?
BTW, it looks like an excellent engine, I like them large, oily, unrestored and running!

aostling
07-15-2007, 01:43 AM
Aostling, thanks for the interesting photos - looks like a great place to visit. Is Jerome in Arizona?

There look to be some interesting big engines behind the Packard - possibly an opposed piston Fairbanks Morse, and something else large as well.




Peter,

Jerome is a former mining town, perched on an Arizona mountain side with a hundred-mile view. It has a few artisan shops now, but the former mining activity has left its imprint. It is an hour's drive south of Flagstaff, well worth the trip.

I did not take a photo of the Fairbanks Morse, but next to it is this huge propane-fueled three-cylinder engine. I wonder where they would have got the propane, back in 1930?

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/BigBertha.jpg

Here is an information plaque, with some particulars about the engine. I did not have time to spent $10 to see it run. But that might be fun.

http://i168.photobucket.com/albums/u183/aostling/Berthaplaque.jpg

Peter S
07-15-2007, 02:36 AM
Aostling,
That is an interesting question about the propane. I have a nice book "Caterpillar" by Randy Leffingwell, he devotes a chapter to the origins of LPG since so many Cats and other tractors were converted to LPG in the 1930's (about 20,000 tractors in California alone by the 1940's).

He mentions a book by Robert Clay written in 1962 giving a 50 year history of the industry, not sure of the title though.

The story is quite complicated, but basically natural gas was a waste product and a problem to the refineries, but they were looking at ways to make money from gas. Around 1912 seems to have been the first sucessful liquifying of gas (though much earlier experiments go back to at least 1860) and in the 1920's LPG was being used in industrial aplications, but was considered to be too dangerous for home or vehicle use (though it was tried).
By 1930 a good carburettor had been developed and trucks and tractors were being converted. The big attraction was the price - about 4-5c per gallon against 18c for gasoline, also if you raised the compression ratio you got better power - hence the boom in conversions during the 1930's, usually done when a tractor needed a rebuild. Apparently Minneapolis-Moline was the first manufacturuer to offer factory produced LPG tractors in 1941.

I guess this doesn't answer why propane was used for the Chicago Pneumatic engine in Arizona - my first guess would be it was a cheap fuel. What I don't know is why they would have chosen LPG instead of an oil or diesel engine. Diesel was already well-established in stationary engine use by the 1930's, though was still in the early days of automotive use. Cat was selling diesel crawlers from 1931, but they didn't really sell well until around 1936.

I would be interested in reading more about the use of gas engines. Gas engines were the mainstay of the early engine builders in the U.K., e.g. Crossley Brothers were building gas engines from around 1867, and if you didn't have a supply of town gas (i.e. coal gas) they would sell you a Producer gas set-up so you could make your own gas. I think these producer gas units used wood for fuel, but maybe coal or other fuels too.

I think companies like Rolls-Royce and probably Cooper Bessemer etc still make engines that run on gas, used as pumps on oil pipelines etc. I have seen some facinating photos of ancient oil well pumping engines still running on waste gas in the US.

dicks42000
07-15-2007, 08:05 AM
I like the pics of the "Museum"...looks like an HSMers back yard if the wife left.....
Anyhow as others have said, engines running on various "gasses" have been made for years. Lots of industrial applications. "Producer Gas" was made from coal (CO basicly) and sometimes was a by-product (steel mills, gas works) so it was used to gererate power. (See Rick Rowlands huge blowing engine pics on the PM board...) Propane, butane, etc. were/are common in refining & used to fire boilers and fuel engines. Natural gas & propane were/ are used for standby power still, of course.
Cooper-Bessemer, Waukesha, Ingersoll-Rand, all made HUGE gas engines used for natural gas pipeline compressors....I used to do torsional vibration analysis, design & help manufacture flexible couplings used on these drives in the early '80's....Now largely supplanted by industrial gas turbines.....There's a big station near Evans place....You still see the odd old BMC, Allis-Chalmers, Rolls-Royce (Perkins), Cat, Superior, Ruston-Hornesby or Vivian (made here in Vancouver years ago) ,even GM V-8's used as stand-by power sets....some gas, some diesel.
Hit & miss or make & break engines were made by lots of little shops all over the world at the turn of the century. Simple to fix, cheap to make and it sure beat rowing, horses on treadmills or steam engines that had to have "licensed engineers", boilers to blow up & needed time to steam up.
The BC troll fishing fleet was almost universally powered by Easthope Engines made in Steveston, BC. Huge cast iron flywheels, some Model T pistons....Sure as heck beat rowing. Rumour has it that one native troll fisherman from Alert Bay loved his Easthope 8-10 so much that he had it used as his headstone...don't know if it still graces the cemetary up there...?
A Ford or Nissan or Isuzu diesel is probably what graces most fishboats now.
Up until the early 80's, Easthope Bros. machine shop still made trolling gurdies & other fishing equipment. Lots of machining history there, someone should write a book. Now the fishing industry is largely dead.
Every other major port had it's home engine builder, Eg. Atlas, Union, etc from San Francisco, iirc. That part of history is largely fogotten now.
Progress....
Rick

Peter S
07-15-2007, 09:12 AM
Rick,

Thanks for the gas engine info.

I have a couple of books you might like about marine engines: "Engines Afloat" volumes 1&2 by Stan Grayson. Nice books, though I don't think the author has looked at anything much outside the US, for example I can't find Easthope mentioned. He also wrote a book about single cylinder marine engines (but all US engines I suspect), also his book "Beautiful Engines" is very nice, even worth buying just to annoy your non-gearhead friends who can't figure out the title. :) Available from the author: http://www.devereuxbooks.com/

I have some (1990's) brochures for Rolls-Royce gas pumping engines, they are Allen engines, huge (multi-thousand horsepower) reciprocating units. For anyone who doesn't know, W H Allen were a famous U.K. company, now part of Rolls-Royce. Crossley is also part of the Rolls-Royce group, apparently still involved with engines, but I am not exactly sure what they do, possibly just making parts for the Crossley-Pielstick engines.

Rolls-Royce sold their own line of smaller diesel engines to Perkins back in 1983, back when Perkins were part of Massey-Ferguson. Now owned by Cat I believe. I think they continue to make the large V-12s for the British tanks, not sure what would of happened to the rest of the range. The antics of company sales and changes gives me a headache.

You mention Waukesha - there are some of these engines here in Auckland powered by (methane?) gas from a landfill site, a great way of generating power. I have also seen large stationary engines in another part of Auckland generating power from methane ex-sewage works, but it is so long ago I can't recall the maker, I think English Electric or similar.

I got a 'new' book recently - "Cooper Industries 1833-1983" which includes Cooper-Bessemer history. I haven't read it yet, will have a look and see what it says about the "gas" engines. It is more of a business history than a nuts and bolts account.

To any US readers; How do Americans discuss gas engines (the real thing) and gas(oline) engines without confusion?

Swarf&Sparks
07-15-2007, 09:24 AM
Worked on some huge gas engines here at BP refinery back in the 70s.
I could sit in the crankcase and get head and shoulders in the bore.
Was assisting a fitter replacing piston rings which seemed ridiculously fragile. They were some kind of graphite and fibre composite IIRC ?
I also seem to recall that they had some kind of valve in the piston crown.

Starting the bastids with that barring gear was "exciting"!

Malc-Y
07-15-2007, 09:29 AM
[QUOTE=Peter S]

I have some (1990's) brochures for Rolls-Royce gas pumping engines, they are Allen engines, huge (multi-thousand horsepower) reciprocating units. For anyone who doesn't know, W H Allen were a famous U.K. company, now part of Rolls-Royce. Crossley is also part of the Rolls-Royce group, apparently still involved with engines, but I am not exactly sure what they do, possibly just making parts for the Crossley-Pielstick engines.

Unfortunately , the old W. H. Allen factory in Bedford was demolished last year to make way for a new housing development. :mad:

Malc.

J Tiers
07-15-2007, 09:40 AM
Pretty much any engine that skips firing for several revolutions is a "hit and miss" engine. The typical hit and miss engine releases the exhaust valve to relieve compression and allow it to coast down without firing, AND without pumping any fuel charge through the cylinder.

The governor allows a lever to hold open the valve. The spark is also inhibited, since its actuator is typically on the same pushrod.

Throttle-governed engines fire every revolution, but regulate the fuel charge via the governor, in somewhat the manner of a modern engine.

The "make and break" term I associate with the ignition means, which isn't directly related to the governing mechanism. To me, that indicates the older battery operated system with an internal lever actuated "ignitor" in the cylinder, as opposed to the magneto and spark plug of later engines. The later magneto may also be lever actuated (Wico EK , Webster, etc) but involves no moving parts in the cylinder.

Since your description indicates firing every few revolutions, it sounds like your "hit and miss" term may be perfectly correct.




To any US readers; How do Americans discuss gas engines (the real thing) and gas(oline) engines without confusion?

The terms overlap, since in general the main difference is the carburetor or "mixer", and maybe the ignition means. Many "gas" engines use a hot tube ignition system, while gas(oline) engines are nearly all spark ignition.

In general, the older flywheel engines as used in the oil fields are all lumped together as "gas" engines. They were often operated on the "waste" casing gas, with hot tube ignition.

And, of course, technically, once the charge is carbureted and reaches the cylinder, much of the gas(oline) has evaporated and is in the gaseous state anyhow..............

"Oil" engines, semi diesel, diesel, hvid diesel, etc are a separate category, but "gas engine" folks tend not to exclude them from teh general grouping.