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joahmon
08-10-2007, 08:56 PM
Bottom bolt is Chinese made (from Enco scissors knurler).
Top bolt is American made (by an amateur) replacement.

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a325/joahmon/Shoulder_Screws.jpg

BTW does any one know why they are called stripper bolts?

Rustybolt
08-10-2007, 09:11 PM
A stripper plate is a part of a die that removes the part from the die. it rides on springs and is guided by stripper bolts. This is the short answer. Sometimes called shoulder bolts.

Tim Clarke
08-10-2007, 10:21 PM
A nice bolt, what did you color it with?

TC

speedsport
08-10-2007, 10:26 PM
now make 49,999 more and sell them for $.02 each.

lazlo
08-10-2007, 11:01 PM
I set up my Harbor Freight Baldor grinder clone last weekend, and I got a laugh out of the bolts that hold the plate-mounted grinding wheels to the grinder: they're made from aluminum, and the hex head has been hand-punched into the heads.

Not a single bolt has the hex recess centered...

platypus2020
08-10-2007, 11:43 PM
Hexes, Hexes, some of the wheel mounting bolts on mine didn't have complete threads. Completely bare on one side, and some threads on the other. Ended up completely replacing all of the screws on the grinder.

jack

lazlo
08-10-2007, 11:59 PM
Where did you get the replacement bolts Jack?

It looks like they're 8mm x 1.25mm thread, with a big head. I can't find those anywhere!

I'd also like to get some 8mm x 1.25mm 90° flat-head screws for one side -- the diamond mounted wheels I have all use 90° counter-sunk bolt holes, so the stock bolts (with a square shoulder) won't fit.

rotate
08-11-2007, 12:00 AM
now make 49,999 more and sell them for $.02 each.

Ironic and nutty, but funny.

toastydeath
08-11-2007, 12:03 AM
Ironic and nutty, but funny.

And unfortunately for many businesses, true.

dp
08-11-2007, 12:14 AM
The interesting thing is the Chinese can make much better equipment than that and do, but there doesn't seem to be as much of a market for it as there is for this junk.

platypus2020
08-11-2007, 12:49 AM
lazlo,

They were 10mm x 5mm shoulder bolts, with 8mm x 1.25mm threads. I had to special order them from Rumetco Sales in Syracuse, NY, they came from Switzerland, about a 4 week wait (in 2004), had to buy 25 of them, about $20.00 for the bolts, and about $25.00 for shipping. On the second grinder, I just used the 8mm x 1.25mm x 12mm flat head allen bolts ( readily available for about $.20 each) for all of the wheels, 90 degree countersink fits perfectly in the recess for the metric shoulder bolts, perfect alignment and holds the wheels tight, after 2 years, no problems, use the grinder all the time.

jack

lane
08-11-2007, 12:54 AM
You would think by now. Most of you would quit buying this Chinese junk.Are at least quit bitching about it.

bob ward
08-11-2007, 02:57 AM
Two points.

The Chinese are on a learning curve, like the Japanese were 50 years ago. In the 50s, most stuff from Japan was referred to as 'jap crap', and it really was low quality poor imitation stuff. By the mid 60's the attitude had changed to 'ooh its Japanese it must be good'.

The really low quality Chinese machine tools etc would still be in China and not causing us any problems if it were not for the AUSTRALIAN, ENGLISH and AMERICAN importers who seek to profit from that junk.

dp
08-11-2007, 03:00 AM
The really low quality Chinese machine tools etc would still be in China and not causing us any problems if it were not for the AUSTRALIAN, ENGLISH and AMERICAN importers who seek to profit from that junk.

Third point: Those importers would be SOL if it weren't for customers shelling out for that same junk. It's like any business - if there's no customers there's no business. Turns out there's no shortage of folks willing to buy that stuff. As Dennis Miller might say, "I'm going to go ahead and blame the buyer".

Alguy
08-11-2007, 03:07 AM
I must have taken the "lane" pledge today , I was at local mall and the Homier tent tools sale was there, I went and looked around for a while they had several generators some nice size ones diesel,and gas, I heard a couple generators running so i walked behind the trailer to see what they were using,
i got a big smile as saw 2 dewalt construction generators running , i guess they can sell them but dont want to use them, :D

Evan
08-11-2007, 09:59 AM
I found this bolt (the bottom one) in a lot of new grade 8 bolts one day. Obviously they don't do 100% inspection. I don't know where it was made.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics/boltbad.jpg

joahmon
08-11-2007, 10:45 AM
Tim,
Heated it to cherry with a mapp gas torch and quenched it in ND motor oil.

Speed,
If I were to take you seriously..... the shoulder on the original bolt was too short to tighten the nut properly and the thing would vibrate apart during knurling, lots of %&*$#&&. The new one is custom job fitted to the 2 arms.

Milacron of PM
08-11-2007, 10:53 AM
Two points.

The Chinese are on a learning curve, like the Japanese were 50 years ago. In the 50s, most stuff from Japan was referred to as 'jap crap', and it really was low quality poor imitation stuff. By the mid 60's the attitude had changed to 'ooh its Japanese it must be good'.



Folks come up with that Japanese/Chinese "goods quality progress" comparison all the time and I don't buy it. By that logic the Chinese should have been exporting top quality CNC machine tools over 10 years ago, plus automobiles over 10 years ago, and it just hasn't happened...with possible exception of autos, they aren't even close in 2007.

I think it's entirely possible China will remain the main source of El Cheapo mid range to poor quality goods for some time. When Japan came along we "needed" the better quality, plus the Japanese culture just seemed more primed and geared toward quality. Now we have USA, Japan, Europe, and to some extent Tawain and Korea for "the good stuff" and we simply don't need yet another source of "good stuff" unless it's way cheaper, and it probably wouldn't be if it was "good"...probably would be about the same price as Tawain, Eastern Bloc and Korea goods, so "who cares ?" sets in.

Spin Doctor
08-11-2007, 11:22 AM
Hexes, Hexes, some of the wheel mounting bolts on mine didn't have complete threads. Completely bare on one side, and some threads on the other. Ended up completely replacing all of the screws on the grinder.

jack

Don't you know, thqat's how you get half thread pitches

Evan
08-11-2007, 11:36 AM
Don

Chinese quality has been improving dramatically in the last few years. Yes, you can still buy crap made there but now you can also by decent tools from China too. The real difference is that the Chinese are still willing to sell crap right down to dollar store tools that are just imitation tools.

This is because they don't yet have strong brand identities for thier products. That is beginning to emerge and with it comes reputation. In Japan a few companies began this process for export products, notably Sony, Honda and Sharp. Once you have a brand reputation to protect you no longer are willing to make and sell garbage, at least not under the brand. Reputation is just as important to the Chinese as the Japanese or anybody else. They are new to the capitalist marketing game but are learning fast.

There is always room on the market for a recognizable brand that offers good value. The Chinese are moving in on the big name brands and will soon be marketing under their own recognizable brand identities. They are rapidly developing an awareness of the value of branding as this story shows.



Chinese Brands on the Rise

Domestic brands are becoming strong enough to challenge the world's top 500 on the global stage in three to five years, according to a report by the Beijing (http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/data/province/beijing.html) Famous-brand Evaluation Co., Ltd.

The report cited FAW (First Automobile Works), Haier (a household appliances brand) and Legend (a computer brand) as possible candidates.

The evaluation company Wednesday released its sixth annual report on the ranking and value of 32 major Chinese brands in 18 industries.

Company representatives said they based their judgments on a mix of sales, profitability, comparison with similar products and input in image building.

The report said that Chinese brands are growing rapidly and are likely to catch up with world famous brands in the next half decade.

Sales of Chinese brands are on the rise. The first ten most valuable brands, for example, increased 30.9 percent in annual sales on average, said the company.

http://english.peopledaily.com.cn/english/200012/07/eng20001207_57164.html

stuntrunt
08-11-2007, 11:49 AM
I've just seen a documentary about a bunch of chinese businessmen on a trade mission in africa... They were looking for places to set up an enormous textile factory...
Guess that when your workers start thinking you either pay them better or 'outsource' !

lazlo
08-11-2007, 01:21 PM
Chinese quality has been improving dramatically in the last few years.

Evan,

I just don't see that. The Mill/Drills and 9x20 lathes now are the same lousy quality as the one's I've had that were 20 years old.
I certainly think they're capable of building quality tools, but like Don says, they're bottom-feeders, and the market for quality tools is pretty crowded.

I think where we're seeing high-quality Chinese tools, without knowing it, is Western re-branding of high-end tools. So a lot of the Starrett
and Brown and Sharpe hand tools are made in China. They're not a good as the old Made in USA tools, but they're a Hell of a lot better than
the junk you find at Harbor Freight. And, of course, you pay a Hell of a lot more for them too.


Robert

Seastar
08-11-2007, 02:23 PM
I have three pieces of Chinese made machine tools.
The first I bought was a 4x6 band saw from Northern Tools. It worked so well in my Minnesota shop that I bought one from HF for my Indiana shop. They are slightly different but both work very well. I use them all the time and don't know how I got along without them.
I did throw away the cheap blades that came with the saws and bought good bi-metal blades.
The second Chinese tool was a 6x26 mill from Wholesale Tool. I bought this after a 2 year hunt for an old American mill.
The WT 6x26 is IMHO a great piece of equipment at an excellent price.
So far it has done everything I have asked it to do. The size would limit it for some people but I don't plan on milling big block Chevy cylinder heads. I like it so well that I am considering buying one for my Minnesota shop
The third piece of Chinese equipment I purchased is a HF tool grinder.
So far it grinds tools much better than I am capable of freehand with my limited ability. With time I may discover it's limits but it only cost $110.
I have two old but good American lathes, a 6 inch Atlas and a 10 inch Logan.
All of my welders are American, a Miller wire feed, a Proweld Oxy-Aceylene and a Thermal Dynamics plasma cutter. I also have an old American made Craftsman drill press that serves my needs as well as an American mechanical 20 ton press made in 1919 .
As the owner of the last American manufacturer of two way radio equipment :www.ritron.com, who has successfuly withstood the Japanese, the Korean and now the Chinese onslaught in my business I am no lover of imported tools but I must recognize quality when I see it.
I think that if you are carefull and do your home work that there are some excellent values in Chinese tools.
Bill

Mike W
08-11-2007, 02:33 PM
This is a welder made in China. You won't find this in HF.

http://i193.photobucket.com/albums/z137/arcpower/My%20selling%20business%20products/EngineDrivenWelderHW380.jpg

lazlo
08-11-2007, 03:02 PM
The third piece of Chinese equipment I purchased is a HF tool grinder.So far it grinds tools much better than I am capable of freehand with my limited ability. With time I may discover it's limits but it only cost $110.

Ironically, the Harbor Freight Tool Grinder was the subject of my post on the first page of this thread:


I set up my Harbor Freight Baldor grinder clone last weekend, and I got a laugh out of the bolts that hold the plate-mounted grinding wheels to the grinder: they're made from aluminum, and the hex head has been hand-punched into the heads.

Not a single bolt has the hex recess centered...

Many of us here have that tool grinder, and it's basically a kit: the tables aren't flat or square, the pot-metal quadrants are unmachined and don't slide well, and the cast aluminum backing plates are poorly machined and subject to vibration.

But with some mill work to square the table and the quadrants, and turning the back side of the aluminum mounting plates flat (if your's doesn't have casting voids like Charlie's), it's a pretty decent machine, and a damn site cheaper than the Baldor grinder.

But then again, these machines: the 4x6 bandsaw, the 6x26 Clausing Mill clone, the Mill/Drills, 9x20 lathes, haven't gotten any better (or worse) in the last 20 years. They're just made to a certain price point.

If you treat them as an unfinished kit, you'll stand a good chance of being satisfied. But you're not going to get Baldor quality at a Chicom price...

Evan
08-11-2007, 05:47 PM
I bought my 4x6 bandsaw from Busy Bee Tools. I have been buying there since they first opened back in the early 80s. The band saw is NOT a kit although you do have to assemble the stand. As you might imagine, with all the iron work I have been doing lately it has been getting a real workout. It cuts straight and square and has never given me any problems. It was like that out of the box. I recently had an opportunity to look at a 4x6 from Princess Auto, our equivalent of HF. What a total piece of junk. Half the weight and half the motor with the crappiest castings I have seen in a long time. Both these machines are made in China in the last few years and the difference in quality is night and day.


I think where we're seeing high-quality Chinese tools, without knowing it, is Western re-branding of high-end tools. So a lot of the Starrett
and Brown and Sharpe hand tools are made in China. They're not a good as the old Made in USA tools, but they're a Hell of a lot better than
the junk you find at Harbor Freight. And, of course, you pay a Hell of a lot more for them too.

That is precisely what I am talking about except you will be seeing Chinese brand names on the products instead. They will also be cheaper than the American brand names are now. In a few years there will be recognizable Chinese names that are associated with decent quality just as there are Japanese and Taiwanese brand names.

JoeFin
08-11-2007, 06:11 PM
It is kind of a dumb question – Chinese or American

The Chinese are hell bent on selling goods to the USA. Why would they build any thing made to last?

They might have taken a lesson from Japanese made goods (which introduced the USA to the term “Disposable”), but they have certainly taken it to the next level.

Chinese – if you are tinkering around in the garage

American - if you actually intend on producing something and you are concerned about labor cost

lwalker
08-11-2007, 11:23 PM
What an awful lot of people ignore (though those who note that the Chinese build to a price point allude to it in passing) is that customers buy what works for them. People are buying the lower-end Chinese tools because they get the job done, according to the buyer's definition of "the job."

I have a Harbor Freight Mini-Mill and it makes money for me. At this point, the tool's capability exceeds my skill level; when that reverses, I will upgrade to a better model. Sure, I could have shelled out the same or more for old American iron, but then what? Spend months gettting it back to usable condition? No thanks. I want to get work done, not restore tools. Likewise, buying new US made stuff is pointless when I can get what I need at 1/10 the price.

My new Chinese mill does the job for me as well as my 25 year-old US-made Tektronix 'scope. When either one becomes unsuited to the job, it will be replaced with a better tool. The really funny thing is that I just found out that the hewlett-packard (I have a hard time saying Agilent) scopes I have been planning for replacing the old Tek are actually rebranded Chinese models ;-)

Mike W
08-11-2007, 11:34 PM
Tektronix did I hear that? I have a bunch of those as well as a two garage full of other test equipment. I am a recovering surplus addict. I just stopped collecting.

J Tiers
08-11-2007, 11:37 PM
New Tek stuff is "made in china" also......

What people forget is that in china there are several levels of manufacturer. Same in Taiwan, and in Japan.

Top level is as good as anywhere else. probably because they are run by Taiwanese managers.

Mid level is usually OK, often variable quality.

The bottom feeder level is local yokels trying to make a buck by making stuff for the lowest price. Anything goes, and they know you want it cheap. They are basically folks who almost know what they are doing.

Imagine a novelty item maker who decided to put together a factory making electronics. Do you suppose that they might have some troubles if they didn't change their attitude towards quality and consistency?

'
'
However, the newest trend THIS year seems to be folks buying children's toys made ANYWHERE BUT CHINA. Just saw it in the paper today. USA, Europe OK. China bu hau.

If we can just get that extended to other items, we could get somewhere with domestic manufacturing.

Evan
08-12-2007, 02:54 AM
If we can just get that extended to other items, we could get somewhere with domestic manufacturing.

Just wait a bit. As the US dollar deflates in value the US will begin to look like an attractive place for China to outsource to. They have enough US cash to buy any legal changes they might want.

oldtiffie
08-12-2007, 04:18 AM
Deleted/edited-out

TECHSHOP
08-12-2007, 05:19 AM
"Brooks Stevens was an industrial designer, as well as automotive designer, graphic designer, and stylist. Though he is often cited with inventing the concept of Planned obsolescence (the practice of artificially shortening product lifecycles in order to influence the buying patterns of consumers in favor of manufacturers), he did not invent it but rather coined the term and defined it. Stevens defined it as, "Instilling in the buyer the desire to own something a little newer, a little better, a little sooner than is necessary." His view was to always make the consumer want something new, rather than create poor products that would need replacing. There is some debate over his role in this controversial business practice."

I could add my bit on the China topic, but I think it would be a poor echo of prior posts (in this thread and my own elsewhere in other threads).

But, I would add that the argument that "China will follow Japan in quality" has a "fatal flaw". In that Japan (and Germany) have (had?) a "quallity ethic", and a "industrial base" before being (quite rightly) blasted in WWII. I don't think China is starting from the same place, they are following the "Peter the Great" model of dragging the peasants kicking and screaming into the "modern world". A similiar divide is seen in the Eastern Euro countries that had a "national history" that was somewhat "democratic" before WWII in their "recovery" after the Cold War.

Hopefully, I haven't hacked this up, again.

J Tiers
08-12-2007, 10:17 AM
Techshop, read history. A particularly interesting book I have been reading has the flashy title of "Guns germs, and steel", by Jaerd Diamond, a reasonably reputable person.

He explains why certain areas developed farming and industry, and others, such as N and S America never did. One chapter explains why the chinese ARE chinese, and how that influenced development.

The chinese have had some form of industrial activity a long time. They discovered many items/processes, cast iron, and bronze casting, as well as gunpowder, for instance. They dug the longest canal in the world centuries ago.

The reasons are given in the book, at least reasonable ones. And it turns out that the reasons have nothing to do with the people at all.

The reasons have a lot more to do with where those people were. If the population of Africa and china had been reversed, the people in china would probably STILL have developed in much the same way.

In any case, because of geography, the chinese DO have a long history of industrial activity.

Your point is however well taken.

The RECENT history of china has NOT exposed the population as a whole, or even a large part, to technological devices of any sort over the last 200 years or so. Same for Russia, which really started less than 100 years ago.

On the other hand, the Japanese have a technological history of about 150 years plus, and when they opened up (after a hiatus), they went at it enthusiastically. The Germans and west europeans as a whole have a technological history of over 1000 years, relatively intense for the last 300. East europe had a technical elite, but sot so much saturation of the population.

That exposure, or lack of it, has an important influence on technical activity, and especially on quality issues. Probably it takes 2 or 3 generations at least, for technical thinking to permeate society to the degree that it is "normal". That is AFTER everyone is quite used to "machinery".

Evan
08-12-2007, 10:30 AM
It seems a lot off people are forgetting how much damage was done by the "cultural revolution" in China. It set the country back decades if not centuries. There was a very heavy lid clamped down on free expression and this was particularly applied to the well educated. Many people were interned and perhaps executed if deemed too much of a threat. Writings and books were confiscated throughout the country and history was rewritten. The teaching of science at any level was severely restricted and independent thought suppressed.

It has taken the Chinese people quite a while to be convinced that the freedom to make money, actually own their land and even travel is here to stay. There are many who still don't quite believe that it isn't just the latest fad amongst the leadership.

J Tiers
08-12-2007, 11:06 AM
I have not forgotten. That is an important part of the "non-technical" recent history. But the peasants really never had any contact with techie stuff until very recently, cultural revolution or no.

Quite unlike 100 years or more of farm use of small engines in the US, mechanical reapers, etc for longer than that. Or 200 plus years of steam power, water power, factories, iron and steel works, etc in europe.

Sure, you can find pockets of non-technical folks even NOW in the US, Canada, Europe.... But the peasants of china (and to some extent Russia) had no contact with any technical stuff almost within the memory of people who are still alive. Airports were built in WW2 in china by carrying stones and earth in baskets...................

oldtiffie
08-12-2007, 11:15 AM
Deleted/edited-out

J Tiers
08-12-2007, 11:56 AM
I note that France and Italy are often left out in discussions about advanced countries in Europe. And don't omit or neglect the United Kingdom (UK) aka "Great Britain" either.



The Germans and west europeans as a whole have a technological history of over 1000 years, relatively intense for the last 300.

Much of the west european technological history (as well as technological history as a whole) has been weapons-related. Armor, cannons, matchlocks, wheel-locks, flintlocks, rifles, etc are all obviously weapons technology.

Since the chinese have been a large uniform population for a long time, with minimal large-scale fighting WITHIN china, those developments were not so pervasive as they were in west europe, or europe in general, where everyone fought everyone else, internally, externally etc, and peasants were armed to some degree all over europe. If not armed, peasants at least SAW armed fighters in action on a regular basis for the last 1200 years or more. Blacksmiths were a common figure over all of europe.

Less so for china, where low technology external enemies were fought on the borders, but far less often within china.

lazlo
08-12-2007, 12:17 PM
It seems a lot off people are forgetting how much damage was done by the "cultural revolution" in China. It set the country back decades if not centuries.


But on the upside, most of the artists, intellectuals, engineers and scientists who weren't executed during the Cultural Revolution fled to the island of Taipei and founded Taiwan, a democratic nation with strong human rights, an excellent system of schools, and an excellent quality ethic.

That's the reason tools made by Chinese people in Taiwan are so much better quality than the tool made in mainland China. The Chinese people in Taiwan are the brothers, sisters, sons and daughters of the Chinese people making tools in mainland China. But Taiwan doesn't use peasant labor, the working conditions are clean and safe, the workers are paid well, and they get medical benefits.

So you have a happy, well-educated, well-paid Chinese worker in Taiwan making high-quality Feeler lathes (excellent Hardinge HLV clones), while his relatives, who didn't leave the mainland during the Cultural Revolution, are un-educated, and work in squalor in work camps in the Free Trade Zone, making low-end machine tools.

lazlo
08-12-2007, 12:26 PM
What people forget is that in china there are several levels of manufacturer. Same in Taiwan, and in Japan.

Top level is as good as anywhere else. probably because they are run by Taiwanese managers.

That's right Jerry -- when high-quality items are manufactured in China, it's almost exclusively because they're items made in Western-built factories, with modern tooling, to Western quality standards, and with Western quality control.

So when Brown & Sharpe or Starrett open up a factory in Shanghai, they send a team of Western industrial engineers, and build a modern factory like they would build in Athol, Massachusetts. The plant is run and operated just like they would in Massachusetts, it just happens to be in Shanghai, and the workers are obviously Chinese.

It's going to be a great leap for China to learn how to build those high-quality items themselves, and they're certainly going to need better educated, better paid workers to do that.
And when they get to that point, the high-quality items they manufacture will cost a lot more than the stuff you buy at Harbor Freight or Grizzly (which is exactly Don's point).

oldtiffie
08-12-2007, 12:38 PM
Deleted/edited-out

Evan
08-12-2007, 12:47 PM
But on the upside, most of the artists, intellectuals, engineers and scientists who weren't executed during the Cultural Revolution fled to the island of Taipei and founded Taiwan, a democratic nation with strong human rights,...

Human rights are NOT a part of Taiwan's history. It isn't a part of the culture, just like mainland China.



Traditional social mores have revolved around Confucian philosophical norms and ideals. Such a philosophy has at its core an emphasis on the community. Accordingly, the individual is identified not by a set of rights but rather by his/her relationship or association with his/her family and broader community. Within such an environment, a code of ethics evolved which placed a duty on the individual to uphold group harmony, even if this necessitated suppressing or subordinating individual claims and grievances.

The Chinese (and consequently Taiwanese) constitution is underpinned by this philosophy. In this context, a strong government is seen as a prerequisite for sustainable democracy. It is therefore significant that the judiciary has traditionally been perceived as a servant of both the individual and the state.





The changing tide of social attitude has not yet negated the cultural norms engrained in Taiwan by centuries of Chinese rule. Furthermore, broad education of the population as to individual civil liberties has, to date, been minimal. Thus, in spite of increased public awareness, these two factors, in combination, have manifested a general lack of understanding of human rights in everyday life.

As a result, several areas still cause concern amongst human rights groups. Invasion of privacy by wire-tapping is reported to be widespread. Further, law enforcement officials, in arresting suspected criminals, have flouted the ‘incidental to arrest’ powers to search locations beyond the immediate arrest site, as well as continue to defy a Council of Grand Justices ruling against searches without warrants.

Once in custody, detainees have reportedly been abused with a view to coercing a confession: no legal obligation rests with police to record interviews or permit legal representation. Evidence acquired in this way, or via the abovementioned searches, is usually admitted into trial through a judicial discretion, and used as a basis for conviction. Indeed, police are rarely found guilty of obtaining evidence illegally. Ironically, some prosecutors, in their drive to stamp out organised crime, are said to have continually breached procedural fairness.


http://www.ahrcentre.org/briefing_papers/human_rights_Taiwan.htm

lazlo
08-12-2007, 01:07 PM
Human rights are NOT a part of Taiwan's history. It isn't a part of the culture, just like mainland China.

Evan, Taiwan has vastly better human rights than mainland China.

In fact, China has about the worst record of human rights of any country except Sudan (Darfur): higher state execution than the rest of the world combined, vastly higher per capita worker death and dismemberments, public execution, torture as a formal interrogation technique, no representation during interrogation, strict censorship of news, books, and the Internet by the Communist Party, ...

Sure, Taiwan has issues with illegal wiretapping, but so do we in the US :rolleyes:

Here's the official US State Department report card on Taiwan's Human Rights, it's very complementary:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2003/27767.htm

platypus2020
08-12-2007, 01:13 PM
'tiffie,

When I was in China, I saw the same thing, you use what you have, and what China has is lots and lots of people. I worked at a Goodyear tire plant, I saw 20-30 people carry a 4000 pound air compressor into a building, using a litter sling and metal poles. Saw them lift huge tanks into saddle mounts 20 feet off the floor with about 100 people, multiple blocks and tackles and hand woven ropes, no cranes, no forklifts, they used what they have, people, all of the western contractors were amazed. There was never any powered mechanical lifting devices, just human power. About 3 months later I was working in a hospital (or what they called a hospital) in India, the mechanical contractor (?) used an elephant to drag the old boiler out of the building, and to drag the new one in.

People in highly mechanized countries seem to forget that all countries are not like them, some are really backwards when they are compared to others, but to the people living there it normal. The taxi driver in Singapore was right, you have to do something with the people to keep them busy, otherwise the sit around and plan some type of revolution.

jack

Rustybolt
08-12-2007, 02:29 PM
J.
Daniel Boorstien wrote an interesting history of why western civilization is what it is. it had a lot to do with how we were governed and waht we believed in. An example Boorstien gave was that once in China, under some emporer or other, so that said emporer could more efficiently service his concubines, a time piece was commitioned.Hundreds of years before it was even thought of in europe. A stream with a constant and consistant flow was diverted to the palace and variouse wise men and craftsmen were employed to build this clock. When they were finished they had a clock that accurately tolled the half hour and hour. Showed the phases of the moon and tides, and predicted eclipses of the sun and moon. It was a monumental engineering feat. And when the emporer died the clock and all its designs, fixtures and paperwork was destroyed. Why? Because when an emporer dies history stops. Only to start again when a new emporer is enthroned.
Only when China can cease to think of herself as the middle kindom to which all other civilizations must defer, will she truly prosper.

J Tiers
08-12-2007, 03:38 PM
Some time after that "time of the clocks" , china STOPPED developments and went backwards for a while.....

The book I mentioned discusses more about WHY we were governed, why was a government developed in europe and china and NOT in other areas such as africa or Australia.

NOTHING to do with character or other more frankly racist conceptions. Very much to do with the distribution of farmable crops, beasts of burden and cattle type animals. Those are determined by the available starter plants, AND by the ability for them to be spread through areas of similar climate. Farming produces a surplus, and allows "drone" non-productive classes of inventors, managers and kings to exist.

The Americas, for instance, did NOT develop that way, because they cover much more distance across climates than they do in any one climate, aside from the USA. But the USA was cut off from the indigenous governments of the Maya and Inca by deserts which did not allow the spread of useful crops. The indigenous crops in the temperate US area were sunflowers, and a plant in the goosefoot family.

China had indigenous farmable crops, animals, and an east-west axis allowing good distribution of crops. hence governments, and technical development.

Rustybolt
08-12-2007, 05:08 PM
I don't think anything I said was racist. Just stating historical fact. The people running China still view themselves as little emperers of the middle kingdom. Their people as subjects that must be controlled. Not government itself , but the way people are governed. A better modern day example would be, say, Zimbabwe and Hong Kong.

Mike W
08-12-2007, 06:00 PM
I recall reading a story about the Flying Tigers during WW2. A pilot left his sun glasses in the cockpit. When he got back they were gone. He told that to the local ground crew. They lined them up and found out who took the glasses. He was taken away. The pilot heard a shot. End of the matter.

J Tiers
08-12-2007, 06:04 PM
I don't think anything I said was racist. Just stating historical fact.

You didn't. Nobody here did.

But, over time many have......

And the real reasons have nothing to do with race, religion, etc. Just basically geography and the way plants and animals are distributed.

JoeFin
08-12-2007, 09:00 PM
The bottom feeder level is local yokels trying to make a buck by making stuff for the lowest price. Anything goes, and they know you want it cheap. They are basically folks who almost know what they are doing.

Harbor Frieght is difinitly "Bottom Feeder"

I've been in their a total of 3 times and it would be comical if it wasn't such a tragidy to watch folks going out the door with stuff thinking it will actually work

My next door nieghbor is one of them. He'll come over asking me to machine/weld some thing up for him and he just doesn't get it when I tell him I'm not finished with it and won't let it go out of my shop in that condition

oldtiffie
08-12-2007, 09:48 PM
Deleted/edited-out

Evan
08-12-2007, 11:26 PM
Evan, Taiwan has vastly better human rights than mainland China.

Now they may. But, as I said, it wasn't a part of their history. In fact, it is a very recent development that the government has begun to place a significant emphasis on human rights.

Illegal wiretaps are one thing but beating confessions out of people is quite a different matter.


Once in custody, detainees have reportedly been abused with a view to coercing a confession:

The point is that it is the cultural background that is largely responsible for the lack of respect for the individual. This hasn't come "naturally" to Taiwan either, it's a result of both international pressure and the exposure gained by students in countries like the US and Canada.

This sort of exposure is now taking place for mainland Chinese students. We have many who are students at Simon Fraser and UBC here. They are no longer here to stay and many of them will return home after taking a degree. It is these people that will eventually change China as they gradually assume the positions of power and control. It will happen.

Evan
08-12-2007, 11:28 PM
public execution, torture as a formal interrogation technique, no representation during interrogation, strict censorship of news, books, and the Internet ............

That also describes Saudi Arabia, a "strong" ally of the US.

TECHSHOP
08-14-2007, 10:41 PM
I'm not sure of "exactly" who I am replying to, (it is starting to run together, the different posts and OT threads).

Agreed on the technological achievements in China's history, but generally they have "failed" to maintain the progress. Much of their culture has a respect for knowledge and learning, and their method of writing makes it possible for a reader to understand much that was written down, regardless of when it was written (not so with the written languages of the "West"), but much of what was recorded was not "technical" or "shared with the masses".

Another factor, unless I overlooked another's post, is disease. Many of the areas on this globe that do not have a technological history are in "malaria zones". The Plague left its mark on Europe. When a large portion of your population is "eliminated", it changes the culture.

Much that can be said about China/Taiwan has been said about the the USA and Europe, in that the ones that could not (or chose not to) remain under their "parent culture" left for the "far shore".

I don't want to get into an argument ranking the "torture states" of the past and present.

All this is somewhat simplified, mostly because I am an American, and therefore inherently incapable of understanding anything else.

J Tiers
08-14-2007, 11:08 PM
Another factor, unless I overlooked another's post, is disease. Many of the areas on this globe that do not have a technological history are in "malaria zones". The Plague left its mark on Europe. When a large portion of your population is "eliminated", it changes the culture.


And it tends to PROMOTE technology, because technology typically does more with fewer workers. Does not mean it has to.

In the UK, IIRC it led to sheepherding replacing more labor intensive farming. China already had so many people, any deaths simply allowed those around room to take a deeper breath...... Life has been cheap there, as it is in any overpopulated area.

In the US, lack of skilled workers led to water power and technology-rich manufacturing. Not from disease, but from UK laws forbidding certain types of worker from emigrating, and also the large area and few people.

TECHSHOP
08-15-2007, 02:37 AM
For most of history "cheap lives" to be spent was the norm, at what point that changed (or even if it has really changed) in "Western Civilatation" is open to debate among the "academic crowd".

A disease that comes "suddenly" like The Plague alters the direction of a civilation. A disease that "was always here", like malaria tend to reinforce whatever developed to "counter" the effects, often long after the "cause" is gone.

As to the US/European relationship, I wasn't limiting myself to the "English". From the "discovery", the New World, became a place for those that were "unhappy" with the the land of their birth to go. The reasons they left "home" may have been economic, social, religious, or political. They may have been forced to leave by the powers that be or willingly departed the land of their birth. But the "net effect" was/is a large portion of the "misfits" (you know the type that question, or want to be in some way "different")ended up here.

So a large percentage of successful maverick personalities has dotted US history, often those same people were considered "undesirable failures" in their homeland.

J Tiers
08-15-2007, 10:20 AM
For most of history "cheap lives" to be spent was the norm, at what point that changed (or even if it has really changed) in "Western Civilatation" is open to debate among the "academic crowd".



I offer you Magna Carta as the turning point in a practical sense.

Evan
08-15-2007, 10:50 AM
The Magna Carta wasn't so much a turning point for the common man as it was a change in the presumed "Divine right of Kings" to rule in any way he saw fit. It placed limits on the king and made him to some degree accountable to at least some of his subjects. That is a first step away from a totalitarian state, regardless of how beneficient it may (or may not) be.

TECHSHOP
08-15-2007, 01:40 PM
Evan:

I am not so sure that China will be changed into anything approximating a "western democracy", I think that the communisim government will collapse (don't they all?), but what will replace that?

J Tiers:

Sometimes I think that the way we like to see ourselves, gets in the way of us seeing what others see about "The West".

To All:
I have spent far too much time on these (three?) recent interrelated China threads. It is important, but I think "we" are starting to drift into the well charted waters of earlier OT China threads.

J Tiers
08-16-2007, 12:26 AM
The Magna Carta wasn't so much a turning point for the common man as it was a change in the presumed "Divine right of Kings" to rule in any way he saw fit. It placed limits on the king and made him to some degree accountable to at least some of his subjects. That is a first step away from a totalitarian state, regardless of how beneficient it may (or may not) be.

Sure.... AND it was really one of the first documents which gave anything remotely resembling "formal rights" to anyone. Before a person's life is valued, they have to have "rights", i.e. at base to be recognized as being as human as the other folks.

Conversely, to be allowed to kill others at will, they first must be made to be "other", and then be made "sub-human". After that they are not viewed as having any rights, even the right to live.

joahmon
08-16-2007, 10:03 AM
Allright guys, ENOUGH!!!!

I posted the original with tongue in cheek as, I hoped, signaled by the toothy grinning icon.

A secondary reason was to possibly give some beginner a clue as to what could be done to improve his Enco knurler.

A while back on this forum or maybe it was the PM forum there was a thread on why more "lurkers" don't post. Well, maybe what happened to this thread is the reason.

There were only 3 ( as I recall) on topic replies and those were after the thread had been hijacked.

Rant over.

J Tiers
08-16-2007, 10:16 AM
The ORIGINAL POST could be summarized as a rant that amounted to:

"This chinese POS was so bad that an amateur lathe operator could and did make better parts than the so-called QC department at the factory passed as good".

After that start, it hardly could get worse................ :D

lilguy
08-16-2007, 02:01 PM
So the moral of the story is buy Grizzly, Jet, Enco etal and fix it to function, hopefully, or buy old Iron and do the same, probably. Or buy a new SB for 12g and a new Bridgeport 20g. What do most of you have in your shop.I am looking at the Griz G4003G (back ordered) and G3103 mill (ceiling to low for BP style).I am space challenged.Any Problems envisioned? Thanks to all.