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Herb W
04-25-2003, 01:45 PM
The tine shaft seals on my honda tiller have been leaking so I thought I'd replace them.

Pulled the seals and found that they are of two piece design (though they don't come apart)...outer part is pressed into the housing and the inner part turns with the shaft. The sealing action is between the two parts of the seal.

What has happened is that the inner part has stopped turning - so the shaft has been turning in the seals and this is where the leak is.

Once I cleaned up the seals, I've found that they were only lightly 'stuck'. I was able to free them easily by hand...they are intact and look to be in good working order.
I think that the problem is that they weren't a tight enough fit on the shaft, or perhaps they were supposed to be 'bonded' on?

So,...my question is: What kind of 'glue' can I use to bond the seal (believe it's neoprene) to the shaft? The interface between shaft & seal is approx. .5" wide so there is some surface area to work with.

Only takes a few minutes to pull these seals, so there's no loss in trying to make the old ones work.

Final question: What is the correct terminology for this type of seal?

Joel
04-25-2003, 03:23 PM
I would probably try an epoxy, or something like JB weld. A good contact cement might be all you need. 3M weatherstrip adhesive (gorilla snot)is great for this sort of thing. I dont think you can use any of the Locktite retaining compounds on rubber. Be sure everything is VERY clean or you won't get a good bond with whatever you try. I use Berrymens B12 (in a spray can), for cleaning, great stuff! Lube up the seal section so it will remain the place where it wants to slip.

Oso
04-25-2003, 05:27 PM
Being a complete barbarian when it comes to unobtanium parts, I tried a different approach.

I just shot the gearcase of my no-name 1950's tiller full of grease instead of replacing seals and using oil. It has worked fine ever since, in fact better than it ever did with oil.

The grease smells better than the differential oil that was in it (and leaking out) when I got the thing. It also prevents dirt getting in.

docsteve66
04-25-2003, 07:50 PM
Oso: Grease works fine, but I have "bush hog", 30 years ago I put 90w gear lube in on top of saw dust. Bottom seal was leaking oil, many problems. Still running quiet. I use it to grind stumps to near ground level- in otherwords I abuse it. Gonna buy another when this one quits. looks like it will still be going when I am not. JUst pine wood saw dust.

Steve

darryl
04-25-2003, 08:46 PM
Most rubbers can be bonded with ca. Also, pliobond will work, so will shoe-goo. Use brake clean or similar zero residue cleaner before wicking the ca into the gap.

wierdscience
04-25-2003, 09:47 PM
docsteve,remember if the front axle can push it over the bushog will grind it up http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

Oso
04-26-2003, 12:10 AM
Doc.....you get that idea from Hemingway?

Or did you experience the original version? http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

[This message has been edited by Oso (edited 04-26-2003).]

Thrud
04-26-2003, 05:08 AM
Herb W:
Use the urethane moisture cured glue that woodworkers use. It will bond to metal and wood as well as almost anything else! It expands and foams when curing, so it will take up the slack for you. It is waterproof when cured. One suface should be dampened with a sponge before bonding.

I forgot to mention that as it is somewhat flexible, it will hold the seal but allow it to flex as well.

[This message has been edited by Thrud (edited 04-27-2003).]

Herb W
04-27-2003, 11:27 AM
Thanks guys!
I happen to have some of that urethane glue-was wondering if it would work for this job.
Also have a tube of 'gorilla snot'...hadn't heard that term in a long while...remember reading in 'motorcyclist' mag years ago how the enduro riders held their bikes together with gorilla snot & duct tape.
I keep some epoxy products on hand as well, but don't know that they would bond with neoprene.(?)
I'm drawing a blank on ca. What is it?

Heavier lube to stop or at least slow the leak: yeah, been there before. Agree on the smell of diff lube...the smell of the ep GL-5 gear oil that the local lube dealer sells almost makes me gag.

Steve - I've heard of the 'sawdust trick' for quieting a noisy diff...wouldn't have thought of using it for the application that you have. I just might need to try that sometime.

Joel
04-27-2003, 03:14 PM
CA is cyanoacrylate glue, i.e. super glue.
Scuff the shaft up a bit first.

chief
04-27-2003, 03:56 PM
I beleive you are refering to what is called a labrinyth seal.

Herb W
05-04-2003, 09:05 PM
Update:
I used the urethane glue...with success...so far. Young son has run the tiller for a few hours since the repair - no oil leakage as of yet.

docsteve66
05-04-2003, 11:00 PM
Oso: I didn't know Ernest H belt with mechanical stuff. I heard of the saw dust/ grease trick when we were following Crops. Story was that it worked in cars and trucks to quiet rear ends, also was supposedly a common trick with used cars salesmen. In the case ofthe bush hog, the seal leaked because a bearing was sloppy in the housing, and I needed to get a few more mowings out of it. So bought a smaller lighter rig to replace the cobbled up job when I season was over. The Asian job rusted through in places and the bush hog never quit. And, Weird buddy, my bush hog has ground lots of stumps. With the 3 piece blade, I just let the tips grind as it lowers,and move forward or rearward slowly till the stump is gone. Never let the swinging blade go past center where it is cutting. Makes lots of noise, Vibrates, but so far still holds together. I prefer to let the stumps rot though, then grind. Sounds like the way old codgers work http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif
Steve

wierdscience
05-06-2003, 12:26 AM
Ever see a Rino Brush hog?Those things are neat they have a heavy steel deck and a friction drive made out of a 15"car tire,you inflate it to add traction and if you hit something say like and engine block http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gifyou don't get all the scrappnel http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gifjust a little burning rubber smell http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif gee reminds me of the dragstrip,burnt rubber smell and little pieces of motor everywhere http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

docsteve66
05-06-2003, 02:57 PM
Yeah man, weird- and the tire could be adjusted on the steel plate to give variable speeds. Slow at center, fast at outter edge of the steel plate. I did not know they had a name though- I thought they were home made. Crude looking things, Ones I saw were not adjustable (speed wise) unless stopped. One had grooves worn in plate where they tires had run for years. Another supposssedly ran on retreads- I wonder if they slip to excess when the disk is wet (cutting wet stuff).

People who run bush hogs are like fishermen- they been known to stretch the truth somewhat. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif
Steve

Oso
05-06-2003, 05:12 PM
It figures in EH under the dishonest salesman category, sold the rubes a wore-out car to go west in.

docsteve66
05-06-2003, 10:09 PM
Oso: there were so many worn out cars on the road that some "towns" in Western states would not let the dust bowl refugees stop becasue the cars might not start to leave town. Stienbecks "grapes of wrath" was better book than movie, but both failed to describe conditions as they really were. Best recounting I have ever seen was at that Stienbeck meuseum at Salinas calif. I looked and read maybe 30 minutes and culd take no more. too many memories. Went outside and tears big as horse turds rolled down my face. Shook like a dog sh*ting a trace chain. About recovered and woman came out side , said lots of those who had lived the displays did the same as I, happened fairly often. Anyway, I never knew EH wrote of those days. might re-read some of his stuff just to see how he handles it. thanks ,bud
Steve

Oso
05-07-2003, 12:05 AM
Doc, danged if you don't got me, of course it no doubt was Steinbeck. OY! Senior moment. Already!
My excuse is that I have just been at a huge 5 day book sale, and the author names are all run together for me right now. After about 1 acre of books, the second acre starts to blur....

My dad was too young for a lot of that, but at 4 or 5 at the start of the depression he was the wage-earner. Grandpa got him to where he would point out places on the map and do other "smart little kid" tricks and got paid for it.

[This message has been edited by Oso (edited 05-07-2003).]

docsteve66
05-07-2003, 11:01 AM
Oso: You dad was a little older than I. I was born 1931. Kids learned to walk in the fields- Moms pulling a "long white trailer" (cotton sack) with fathers and older kids. One or more girl (old nuff to work but for some reason not suitable for labor) would watch the rest of the kids and babies while the rest worked. When the kids could work, they did. Those of us lucky enough to have parents who sent us to school went to school- school or field was the choice.
Sounds bad ,but it was actualy not a bad way to live. People are just people and do what they have to do when they have to do it and -lacking someone to tell them it is some one elses fault- do their best to get out of the hole they are in. But they don't see it as a hole unless they were better off before- then they have goals. Sad thing was that most of us were better off than we would have been had we stayed where ever we came from, so we were kind of proud that we had not been pulled down. Nuff memories of the boring kind.

Steve