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grannygear
08-13-2007, 11:16 PM
I'm sure most of you will have seen in the news the story of the Fisher-Price toys that had to be recalled from the shelves due to the presence of lead-based paint. Here's some background you may not know.

The owner of the toy factory that made these is a Hong Kong man, Mr. Chen. He's a very successful businessman, but he also has a well-deserved reputation as a decent guy. Unlike a lot of factory owners, he pays his workers well and on time.
He goes with them to company functions and eats with them at the common tables. Respected by all.

The paint for the toys was supplied by Mr. Chen's long-time friend and business partner, a man made rich by Chen's toy factory. This man knowingly sold the lead paint to Chen, thinking no one would be the wiser and he could make an extra buck.

When the lead paint was discovered, Mr. Chen was hit with millions in fines and penalties. Betrayed by his old friend, he went home and killed himself.

Not everyone in China is indifferent to quality or doing the right thing, but there's always someone ready to take advantage, who see honesty and integrity as weakness to be exploited.

Tinkerer
08-13-2007, 11:54 PM
Wow if Mr.Chen was going to Hari Kari himself over this he should of ninja'd the POS that sold him the tainted paint. Heck it could of made him feel so good He might still be breathing and the POS could not ever sell tainted goods to another friend.

Too_Many_Tools
08-14-2007, 12:26 AM
I'm sure most of you will have seen in the news the story of the Fisher-Price toys that had to be recalled from the shelves due to the presence of lead-based paint. Here's some background you may not know.

The owner of the toy factory that made these is a Hong Kong man, Mr. Chen. He's a very successful businessman, but he also has a well-deserved reputation as a decent guy. Unlike a lot of factory owners, he pays his workers well and on time.
He goes with them to company functions and eats with them at the common tables. Respected by all.

The paint for the toys was supplied by Mr. Chen's long-time friend and business partner, a man made rich by Chen's toy factory. This man knowingly sold the lead paint to Chen, thinking no one would be the wiser and he could make an extra buck.

When the lead paint was discovered, Mr. Chen was hit with millions in fines and penalties. Betrayed by his old friend, he went home and killed himself.

Not everyone in China is indifferent to quality or doing the right thing, but there's always someone ready to take advantage, who see honesty and integrity as weakness to be exploited.


Sorry but I don't believe for a moment that he "didn't know" about the leaded paint...leaded paint is cheaper and it was used to increase profits.

I also STRONGLY suspect that he had "help" in hanging himself...dead men tell no tales. China has a long history of hiding the truth.

Ironic that it is over toys but as always it is really over the money that is being made at the expense of the health of young children...our children. The use of lead paint has placed hundreds of thousands of children at risk for lead poisoning....for that more of those who are responsible should be hung.

I would like to know why Mattel was not testing their product before offering it to the public....lots of people do.

TMT

gmatov
08-14-2007, 02:46 AM
I gotta go against TMT.

He thinks that anything that is banned in the US is universal.

NOT SO.

We no longer can buy R-12, the coolant in the older cars, because the patent expired, DuPont quit making it and got it outlawed IN THE US.

It is used in every other country in the world.

Lead paint has been banned since the 70's IN THE US. White lead and red lead as well, which we used to rely on for ease of assembly and disassembly, in manufacturing.

Old farts don't have to worry too much that lead bearing compounds are gonna make us die sooner.

A 20 year old who enters machining will complain that ALL that oil making fumes from that machining center will cause them to die before their time does not, in any way, bode well for machining in this country.

I gotta say, we actually might have grown a bunch of pussies in the Americas.

Them guys sitting over the pits with EDM wires making fumes should be dropping like flies.

Wonder which letters the censor takes out of the "PUSSIES".

ALL of them ? BFD. How'd you like to weld all day and suck up all THAT ****?

Cheers,

George

gmatov
08-14-2007, 02:48 AM
I find it funny that Sh*t is the only word that was starred out.

Censors might be adjustable, huh?

Doc Nickel
08-14-2007, 02:56 AM
Wow if Mr.Chen was going to Hari Kari himself over this he should of ninja'd the POS that sold him the tainted paint. Heck it could of made him feel so good He might still be breathing and the POS could not ever sell tainted goods to another friend.

-Well, not knowing much about the situation, I can't comment apart from pointing out that the Chinese Government had the fellow responsible for the glycol in the pet food shot. It's not too much of a stretch to see Mr. Chen realizing that he's a dead man either way, and a suicide at least keeps some semblance of family honor.

However, the reason I posted is to note that hara-kiri (more properly, seppuku) and ninja/ninjitsu are Japanese terms, not Chinese.

They are not the same people, you know, and it's been my experience that either one will take at least some measure of offence at being called the other.

Doc.

gmatov
08-14-2007, 03:00 AM
TMT,

I do not know if leaded paint is cheaper. I do know that when the USG mandated that it no longer be used, houses needed painted more often, because leaded paint could allow vapor pressure of interior moisture to transpire.

When the US mandated the new Titanium based paint, it made a film that would not transpire moisture, would blister more than lead based paint would.

Scrape and repaint. BFD. Paint's over 20 bucks a gallon. Buy lots of it.

You do what you want to do.

Cheers,

George

Too_Many_Tools
08-14-2007, 03:01 AM
I gotta go against TMT.

He thinks that anything that is banned in the US is universal.

NOT SO.

We no longer can buy R-12, the coolant in the older cars, because the patent expired, DuPont quit making it and got it outlawed IN THE US.

It is used in every other country in the world.

Lead paint has been banned since the 70's IN THE US. White lead and red lead as well, which we used to rely on for ease of assembly and disassembly, in manufacturing.

Old farts don't have to worry too much that lead bearing compounds are gonna make us die sooner.

A 20 year old who enters machining will complain that ALL that oil making fumes from that machining center will cause them to die before their time does not, in any way, bode well for machining in this country.

I gotta say, we actually might have grown a bunch of pussies in the Americas.

Them guys sitting over the pits with EDM wires making fumes should be dropping like flies.

Wonder which letters the censor takes out of the "PUSSIES".

ALL of them ? BFD. How'd you like to weld all day and suck up all THAT ****?

Cheers,

George


LOL...George you are entitled to your opinion...no harm in that...I encourage different opinions so that I may learn...unfortunately this time you are wrong...I wish you were right.

FWIW...I am from the old school of hard knocks and have paid my dues the hard way so I know where you are coming from.

But that does not for a moment lessen the seriousness of this leaded paint problem. Take the time to do the homework and you will see that leaded paint is a SERIOUS problem...especially with children. Anyone with children or grandchildren should be mad as hell that this situation occurred...your offspring have likely ingested lead and you will have to bear the consequences while the crooks made another dollar of profit.

TMT

gearedloco
08-14-2007, 03:03 AM
[QUOTE=gmatov]I gotta go against TMT.

He thinks that anything that is banned in the US is universal.

NOT SO.

We no longer can buy R-12, the coolant in the older cars, because the patent expired, DuPont quit making it and got it outlawed IN THE US.

It is used in every other country in the world.

Lead paint has been banned since the 70's IN THE US. White lead and red lead as well, which we used to rely on for ease of assembly and disassembly, in manufacturing.

Old farts don't have to worry too much that lead bearing compounds are gonna make us die sooner.

[ ... ]

Back when I took "Machine Shop" in high school we used white lead mixed in oil to lubricate the dead center in the tail stock. Some of dimmer bulbs on the porch used to eat the stuff when the instructor wasn't looking. They said it was quite tasty. None of them ever dropped dead in class.

For various reasons it would be difficult to tell if it had any effect on their mental capacity, such as it was.

We did have a great instructor. As projects we made 6" bench grinders and 10 X 36 (+/-) wood lathes. While he made the patterns and core boxes, all of the castings (aluminum) were made in class. About the only purchased items in the projects were machine screws, bearings, and woodruff keys.

Those were great times, even if the shops were the place they tended to send the mentally challenged on occasion. This particular teacher could really teach! He could even teach the unteachable, in spite of themselves.

gmatov
08-14-2007, 03:05 AM
Doc,

No, they are all Yellow, they are interchangeable.

You can't seriously think you are conversing with people who have any idea WHAT in the HELL they are condemning.

Can you?

Cheers,

George

Too_Many_Tools
08-14-2007, 03:13 AM
Back when I took "Machine Shop" in high school we used white lead mixed in oil to lubricate the dead center in the tail stock. Some of dimmer bulbs on the porch used to eat the stuff when the instructor wasn't looking. They said it was quite tasty. None of them ever dropped dead in class.

It likely did...lead has a sweet taste...which is why kids like to eat paint chips containing lead.


As for its effects..just an example.


http://www.epa.gov/Region2/health/leadpoisoning.htm

Although lead-based house paint has long since been taken off the market, children living in older homes are threatened by chipping or peeling lead paint, or excessive amounts of lead-contaminated dust. More than 80 percent of homes built before 1978 contain lead paint. Even at low levels, lead poisoning in children can cause IQ deficiencies, reading and learning disabilities, impaired hearing, reduced attention spans, hyperactivity and other behavior problems. Pregnant women poisoned by lead can transfer lead to a developing fetus, resulting in adverse developmental effects.

Children are at greatest risk in the early years of their life. The only way to know if your child is being lead poisoned is to get a blood test. If your child is at risk, have a blood test done as early as six months. The intellectual and behavioral damage done to children can be prevented, but, once done, cannot be reversed.

TMT

Joel
08-14-2007, 03:17 AM
Fascinating thread...

gmatov
08-14-2007, 03:25 AM
TMT,

This is getting ridiculous.

Even the USG is reporting that the problem is not as seious as it was proposed.

Idjits that said all them little kids were eating the paint off the 50 year old windowsills. It was there, they COULD have ET the leaded paint off them windowsills.

GOOD thing was that they could have ET a pound of them scrapings, and the human body doesn't digest and use that stuff.

Any idiots we have are mainly because we have some really dumb kids mating, barring unknown physioliogical reasons that they should not have mated.

I've known some people who would be called really dumb. Old farmers. Smart enough to keep their 3 4 500 acres from the Gov.

They died off and the kids are on their asses, most of them have gone to the developers. HOUSES in the hinterlands?

Sheesh.

Cheers,

George

Too_Many_Tools
08-14-2007, 03:38 AM
TMT,

This is getting ridiculous.

Even the USG is reporting that the problem is not as seious as it was proposed.

Cheers,

George

George, could you provide a cite discussing how the USG has stated that it is not a problem?

Considering that a number of recalls for lead painted toys have been implemented (which will cost millions of dollars to do), the USG considers the situation serious.

And considering that a suicide has occurred, that incident would also seem to indicate that there is a serious situation is occurring.

I have not seen a report stating the amount of lead that was in the paint...again any cites would be welcomed.

TMT

Norman Atkinson
08-14-2007, 04:25 AM
I came from a generation in which lead was an everyday item.
We had lead pipes, lead paint, we had lead around tubes of toothpaste, we chewed the heads off toy soldiers. Until recently, we breathed in vast quantities of lead from vehicle emissions.

I am looking around and find that when lead wasn't around, the life expectancy was perhaps 30. The Bible quotes three score years and ten and the world simply cannot cope with old farts who have gone way beyond 70.
The newspapers and the media generally is howling because we are going to live -for ever. We, if I can remind you, are the lead generation and not the lead free one. The lead free one is **** scared of lead, carcinogenic compunds of every consistency, they don't eat nuts and saturated foods.
The list is is endless for these poor- over fat sods!
The mortality rate seems less for them.

My generation or should I say, the generation who lived through a rationed and starving war, have no lead problems. We ate what was there.

Somewhere, there is an answer. If we stopped listening to a bunch of the doomed, we might find it.

Oldguy
08-14-2007, 04:36 AM
Lets not over-react to this. I agree that lead is not good thing for you to ingest and it's good that its use have been banned from many products. However, all of these dire problems that are going to affect all of todays children and turn them into mindless zombies, WHERE THERE WHEN WE WERE GROWING UP and somehow we managed to turn out okay. How did we all managed to live through it? Maybe it's not THAT serious a threat. Could it be that because we have the technology to measure to "parts per billion", we have to set limits that can make use of these measurements?

Slightly OT. It's not safe to let your kids walk or ride their bikes to school because there is too much traffic. What do you think would happen to the traffic if 200 to 300 cars weren't taking 400 Jasons and Jennifers to every local elementary school each day? Then the teachers and administrators could go back to what they should be doing, instead of directing traffic in the parking lot and the kids would benefit from the exercise.

How the heck did any of us manage to survive the "bad old days"?

Glenn

John Stevenson
08-14-2007, 04:42 AM
Children are at greatest risk in the early years of their life. The only way to know if your child is being lead poisoned is to get a blood test. If your child is at risk, have a blood test done as early as six months. The intellectual and behavioral damage done to children can be prevented, but, once done, cannot be reversed.

TMT

Have you ever had a test ?

.

grannygear
08-14-2007, 04:46 AM
I'm kind of surprised at the direction this is going. I didn't mean to argue the pros and cons of lead paint - I thought I was talking about the local manufacturing culture.

Maybe I'm wrong in how I'm "reading" this situation with the factory owner. Maybe he was in on the scam and got caught; maybe he was helped out of this world to save face for someone else. Both are realistic possibilities in this environment, for sure. All evidence that I've heard, from my local friends, is that he was regarded as a genuinely honest businessman, and that he was duped by someone he shouldn't have trusted.

One thing I strongly disagree with is that the factory "had to know" or "ought to have known" about the presence of lead. This is a factory with 5,000 workers, making hundreds of different toys for scores of big customers. No way in the world that the owner is going to know the constituency of every component going into every product - that's why he has supervisors and purchasing managers and incoming QC people, etc. No human could handle all of those details by themselves - especially if some material was deliberately mis-labeled, as it seemingly was.

Matel no doubt have their own QC people on the job, but they're almost always local, not foreigners, because they have to liase in the Chinese language with the vendors and other QC people. These people are not above taking a bribe to look the other way, when they're making $300 a month and the foreigner they answer to is making 20 times that or more. I'm not saying that did happen in this case, but such things have happened before...and if it did, you can be damn sure that the big boss would never, ever get wind of it.

Norman Atkinson
08-14-2007, 05:10 AM
Grannygear,
Might I suggest that you re-examine what now appears to be unveiled suppositions about the case.

I lived and worked in an area in which lead was the norm. I was born and bred in polluted Tyneside. The river was the biggest open sewer in the World. It may have been in the writer's opinion but it was bad enough. I looked at Beijing- the pollution facing the Olympics- and this was cleaner than my home town. The time interval betwen the two is half a century at the most.
Today, Chinese workers accept the status quo- as we did. I cannot think that bribery has much to do with it. Dirt is their life.

But let me come back to the overall facts. Today, there is a helluva ding donfg about the 3rd runway at Heathrow in London. I lived a few miles up the road- on another bloody runway. In 1949, there were complaints about noise, pollution and that we couldn't see the end of the bloody runway- and it was 826 yards long! Let's face it, your boys were flying there as well.

No body was falling on their bayonets- in shame.
I am impressed with the fact that there is still honour. I am not surprised that the old image of 'losing face' still continues- in China.

We could learn a lot! A queue for swords, folks?

Evan
08-14-2007, 06:47 AM
Lead paint has been banned since the 70's IN THE US. White lead and red lead as well, which we used to rely on for ease of assembly and disassembly, in manufacturing.
Lead paint isn't banned in the US and neither is white or red lead. They are still widely used in industrial and machinery coatings. They have been removed from consumer paints, that is all.



Red Lead Primer $72.00
Salty Dog Deck Oil $14.00
White Lead Paste $175.00
Yacht Gloss or Semi-gloss White & Black $49.00
Zinc Chromate Primer $49.00
Please note: White Lead paste gallons are 25 lbs, quarts are 5 lbs.

http://www.kirbypaint.com/products/

oldtiffie
08-14-2007, 07:21 AM
Deleted/edited-out

Weston Bye
08-14-2007, 08:06 AM
Back to manufacturing in China - a case in point:

Chinese steel bars are purchased from a chinese steel mill. The are chopped and forged to rough shape, machined, plated and shipped to a US customer. The customer assembles the part into a finished product. During assembly, one of the Chinese parts splits in two.

They asked my opinion as I held the failed part in my hand.

" You got bad steel from the Chinese steel mill. Specifically, the mill had some short bars and welded these together. I can't prove it, but that's what happened. Your failed part cracked at the weld."

"Well, can't we test for this, where the crack happened?"

"No. The crack can happen anywhere along the length of the part, and the part is too complex for eddy current testing."

"What can we do? We have all these parts."

"Scrap them all. Start over. You have made the decision to deal with China. Now you're living with that decision. Until they get to the point where they can guarantee good product all along the supply chain, you will be at risk."

oldtiffie
08-14-2007, 08:40 AM
Deleted/edited-out

Norman Atkinson
08-14-2007, 09:10 AM
Ah so, OT!

I came over the model of the Sydney Harbour Bridge only minutes ago.
Ours was out by 2" when the rivets had to go in!

But things have moved on up North. No prizes to guess who is going to HongKong in November. But with the Chinese from here?


Off to Austria. We are spending our children's inheritance.

Climb every mountain- but only little ones
Cheers
Norm

oldtiffie
08-14-2007, 10:39 AM
Deleted/edited-out

Tinkerer
08-14-2007, 12:31 PM
-Well, not knowing much about the situation, I can't comment apart from pointing out that the Chinese Government had the fellow responsible for the glycol in the pet food shot. It's not too much of a stretch to see Mr. Chen realizing that he's a dead man either way, and a suicide at least keeps some semblance of family honor.

However, the reason I posted is to note that hara-kiri (more properly, seppuku) and ninja/ninjitsu are Japanese terms, not Chinese.

They are not the same people, you know, and it's been my experience that either one will take at least some measure of offence at being called the other.

Doc.
Doc's... Who's to say that Mr. Chen was not a transplanted Hong Kong businessman from Japan with globalization and all. Anyway you missed the point. If your dead set on check out of life take the reason for doing so with ya.

Too_Many_Tools
08-14-2007, 08:26 PM
George, could you provide a cite discussing how the USG has stated that it is not a problem?

Considering that a number of recalls for lead painted toys have been implemented (which will cost millions of dollars to do), the USG considers the situation serious.

And considering that a suicide has occurred, that incident would also seem to indicate that there is a serious situation is occurring.

I have not seen a report stating the amount of lead that was in the paint...again any cites would be welcomed.

TMT


Apparently the USG does consider this issue to be a problem...yet another toy recall for leaded paint....9 MILLION MORE.

If I were a parent of young children, I would be having them tested for lead if they have had any of these toys.

TMT

Mattel recalling more Chinese-made toys By NATASHA T. METZLER, Associated Press Writer

Mattel announced recalls Tuesday for 9 million more Chinese-made toys, including popular Barbie, Polly Pocket and "Cars" movie items, and warned that more could be ordered off store shelves because of lead paint and tiny magnets that could be swallowed.

The recalls came nearly two weeks after Mattel Inc., the nation's largest toy-maker, recalled 1.5 million Fisher-Price infant toys worldwide, which were also made in China, because of possible lead-paint hazards for children.

The government warned parents to make sure children are not playing with any of the recalled toys.

Nancy A. Nord, acting Consumer Product Safety Commission chairman, said no injuries had been reported with any of the products involved in Tuesday's recalls. She said the recalls were intentionally broad to prevent injuries.

Several injuries had been reported in an earlier Polly Pocket recall last November. At least one U.S. child has died and 19 others have needed surgery since 2003 after swallowing magnets used in toys, the government said.

The recall announced Tuesday include about 9.3 million play sets that contain small, powerful magnets. Among the toys are Polly Pocket dolls and Barbie and Tanner play sets, along with Batman and OnePiece Triple Slash Zolo Roronoa action figures, and Doggie Day Care. Many of the magnetic toys are older and may have been purchased as early as 2003.

Also recalled Tuesday were 253,000 of Mattel's die-cast cars modeled after "Sarge" in the cartoon movie "Cars" that contain lead paint.

"Another week, another recall of Chinese-made toys," said Sen. Dick Durbin, D-Ill., who suggested detaining and inspecting all Chinese toy imports for lead paint. "We can't wait any longer for China to crack down on its lax safety standards. This needs to stop now before more children and more families are put at risk."

Rep. Mike Ferguson, R-N.J., said companies whose toys are made in China need to be sure their products meet U.S. safety standards. "If they don't, I believe Congress must give federal regulators the authority to ensure that our kids' toys won't actually harm them," he said.

In a conference call with reporters, Mattel chief executive Bob Eckert said the company is stepping up its oversight and testing in its production processes. As a result, he noted, more recalls may occur.

"There is no guarantee that we will not be here again and have more recalls," Eckert said. "We are testing at a very high level here."

In full-page ads in the New York Times, Wall Street Journal and USA Today on Tuesday, Mattel said it has "one of the most trusted names with parents" and was "working extremely hard to address your concerns and continue creating safe, entertaining toys for you and your children."

Tuesday's recalls were the latest blows to the nation's toy industry, which relies on China for about 80 percent of toys sold in the United States.

On Aug. 2, Mattel recalled about 1.5 million Chinese-made Fisher-Price toys including characters such as Dora the Explorer, Big Bird and Elmo that contain lead paint. In June, about 1.5 million Thomas & Friends wooden railway toys, imported from China and distributed by the RC2 Corp. were recalled because of lead paint.

Lead is toxic if ingested by young children. Under current regulations, children's products found to have more than .06 percent lead accessible to users are subject to a recall.

"There is no excuse for lead to be found in toys entering this country," Nord said. "It's totally unacceptable and it needs to stop."

Nord said the company has stopped selling the recalled products, instructed retailers to pull them from the shelves and made a production change. Mattel is also offering replacement products.

The Consumer Product Safety Commission, which negotiated details of Mattel's recalls, reported that in the previous recall of Polly Pocket play sets Nov. 21, 2006, three children had been injured by swallowing more than one magnet. All three suffered intestinal perforations that required surgery.

When more than one magnet is swallowed, they can attach to each other and cause intestinal perforation, infection or blockage, which can be fatal.

In March 2006, another toy company, Mega Brands Inc., recalled 3.8 million Magnetix magnetic building sets after one child died and four others were seriously injured after swallowing tiny magnets in them.

Mattel officials said they became aware in late July of potential problems at factories in China and began investigating. While testing to determine which products might be affected, the company alerted the CPSC, Eckert said.

The Mattel executive said the decision to move forward with a recall was made at the end of last week. When The Associated Press learned late Monday that another Mattel recall was in the works and contacted the CPSC, a spokesman declined to comment.

CPSC spokesman Scott Wolfson said the time between this decision and the announcement was spent determining the scope and exact nature of the problem, as well as negotiating with the company on the remedy for the recall, the logistics of an information hotline and a Web presence for recall information. He said these logistical considerations are necessary to "ensure that at the point of CPSC's announcement, the consumer will have those tools and they will know what the next steps are."

Days after the Aug. 2 Fisher-Price recall, Chinese officials temporarily banned the toys' manufacturer, Lee Der Industrial Co., from exporting products. A Lee Der co-owner, Cheung Shu-hung, committed suicide at a warehouse over the weekend, apparently by hanging himself, a state-run newspaper reported Monday.

For information about Tuesday's recalls, consumers should call Mattel at 888-597-6597 for information about toys with magnets, or 800-916-4997 for information about the die cast cars.

___

Associated Press reporters Ann Sanner in Washington and Anne D'Innocenzio in New York contributed to this report.

___

On the Net:

Mattel: http://service.mattel.com/us/recall.asp

Consumer Product Safety Commission: http://www.cpsc.gov/

Too_Many_Tools
08-14-2007, 08:33 PM
Have you ever had a test ?

.

Yes.

Years ago I worked in an industry where testing for a number of substances including lead was required.

TMT

TGTool
08-14-2007, 11:07 PM
Yes.

Years ago I worked in an industry where testing for a number of substances including lead was required.

TMT

Hmm. I had to pee in the bottle for one employer but I didn't know they were checking for lead in my a$$. They hired me, so it couldn't have been too high. The lead, that is. The job often had my tail dragging.

J Tiers
08-14-2007, 11:13 PM
The story was in the newspaper here.....

The name was NOT Chen...............

And he did NOT go home and kill himself.
.
.
.
According to the paper, the name was Zhong something or another.....

And he hung himself in the warehouse.......

lane
08-14-2007, 11:28 PM
We all grew up with lead paint and such stuff and we are still here .We use to use white led with oil on our dead centers. Had good Tap magic, R12 in our air conditioners all the good stuff they take away. They used to spray for fire ants and we did not have many . DDT killed the wasp and bugs in cotton. We had weed killer that worked. Gasoline that did not go stale to fast.I don't know about you but I miss the good old days when Government stayed out of business .Too many wimpy people wont some to take care of them and don't have sense enough to take care of them selves.

bob ward
08-14-2007, 11:34 PM
J Tiers has it right

google 'mattell toy recall suicide'

oldtiffie
08-15-2007, 01:05 AM
Deleted/edited-out

TECHSHOP
08-15-2007, 03:01 AM
In most of the (third) world, there is no "implied fitness for purpose". The "seller" shows you his wares, and when you buy something from him, it is yours. If it doesn't "work out" or meet "spec" that is your (the buyer's) problem.

As to the toys, looks like there is some of this stuff in my house. But my house is also "pre-lead free era", radon infested, and coated in asbestos. I don't even want to think about those glass tubes of mercury and the places they were...

oldtiffie
08-15-2007, 07:32 AM
Deleted/edited-out

Evan
08-15-2007, 07:38 AM
The story was in the newspaper here.....

The name was NOT Chen...............

And he did NOT go home and kill himself.
.
.
.
According to the paper, the name was Zhong something or another.....

And he hung himself in the warehouse.......


Be careful when dealing with Asian languages transliterated to English. Zhang is Mandarin. The factory owner's name in Cantonese was Cheung Shue Hung, Chen for short.

Here are two stories, the first about the suicide and the second very interesting and worth reading about product quality problems in China, how and why they happen.

Suicide:
http://www.forbes.com/2007/08/13/mattel-subcontractor-suicide-face-cx_jc_0813autofacescan02.html

Quality Fade:
http://www.forbes.com/entrepreneurs/2007/07/26/china-manufacturing-quality-ent-manage-cx_kw_0726whartonchina.html?partner=links

oldtiffie
08-15-2007, 07:52 AM
Deleted/edited-out

Evan
08-15-2007, 07:56 AM
I don't know, it works here. Try using these search terms on the Forbes site.

Subcontractor at Heart of Fisher-Price Toy Recall Is Apparent Suicide

and

Dealing With China's 'Quality Fade'

or try these links:

Suicide
http://www.forbes.com/2007/08/13/mattel-subcontractor-suicide-face-cx_jc_0813autofacescan02_print.html


Quality Fade
http://www.forbes.com/2007/07/26/china-manufacturing-quality-ent-manage-cx_kw_0726whartonchina_print.html

oldtiffie
08-15-2007, 08:20 AM
Deleted/edited-out

oldtiffie
08-15-2007, 08:31 AM
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oldtiffie
08-15-2007, 09:49 AM
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J Tiers
08-15-2007, 10:10 AM
I don't know about the mandarin etc, very possible that is true.

And I don't think WE are the ones who need to be careful......... Perhaps the company which publishes "the best news money can influence" should be careful.

If you are going to talk about /report something in ENGLISH, you ought to be careful to use the standard ENGLISH translated version, instead of a different one. I think too many are "sensitive to dialects" and so tend to go overboard using the "politically correct native dialect version".... even when that is confusing.

However, there is still a difference between "home" and a "warehouse", so unless THAT is an imprecise translation, someone messed up.

BTW, I think Forbes is next on Rupert's list in his ongoing attempt to purchase credibility. Does "Murdoch" translate to "Hentzau" in HIS native language?

oldtiffie
08-15-2007, 10:41 AM
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TECHSHOP
08-15-2007, 01:19 PM
I think the "sudden flurry" of voluntary recalls is, at least in part, due to the the US companies trying to "clear their good name" prior to the the Christmas toy buying season. They are hoping to blend into the crowd, with all the other companies that have been "less than diligent" in the QC department. If they were the "only" company, they might not recover from the customer backlash (things like this have "destroyed" companies or brand names), but if "just about everyone" was caught short, it spreads out the impact to the reputation.

Another reason, is the "self-appointed" guardians of "all that is decent and right", realize they have a duty to protect "the innocent children" from the realities of the world (like corporate greed). Oh, and support their bottom line in doing so...

Here in the US there is a "distinction" in peoples thinking, between things bought at an auction, et al; and things purchased from a merchant (were the customer is protected by refunds, warrenties, and recalls). But this is a somewhat unique division of things that is not known in the rest of the world.

As for translations, there are many concepts and districtions that exist in one culture and its language that do not exist in another. With regards to English, there is no "official standard" to translate to.

There is always the truism that the "intial reports are always wrong" and then the shading of the "truth" begins.

grannygear
08-15-2007, 10:19 PM
[QUOTE=J
If you are going to talk about /report something in ENGLISH, you ought to be careful to use the standard ENGLISH translated version, instead of a different one. I think too many are "sensitive to dialects" and so tend to go overboard using the "politically correct native dialect version".... even when that is confusing.

However, there is still a difference between "home" and a "warehouse", so unless THAT is an imprecise translation, someone messed up.

[/QUOTE]

Allow me to clear up my good name, if I may.

Concerning the different dialects of the Chinese language, I am aware that the man's name, in Cantonese, is indeed Cheung or Chen. I called him Chen, which is what he called himself, being from Hong Kong. No apologies there. And yes, I speak Mandarin.

The first report I heard about this incident was not from the newspaper, although I read about that later. I heard about it from colleagues and business associates who knew the man. Water-cooler talk, I admit, and not precise. I posted the information, not because I was intending to make a factually perfect account of record - I wanted to simply inform people about how far the situation had gone. I admit there's a difference between "home" and "warehouse". I apologize for my sloppiness and will fact-check better next time.

lane
08-15-2007, 10:53 PM
You got to remember. The Chinese want to take us down any way they can. Sell us sorry products, poison us ,make us sick with bad food . So buyer beware If I know something comes from China I want buy it .. I don`t care how much I will save money wise. It is not worth the trouble.

J Tiers
08-16-2007, 12:19 AM
1)
The NEWSPAPER is who "needs to be careful about translations"..... apparently they didn't use the standard translation.

2) Rupert Murdoch, I have been told, is the owner of the infamous "Fox news" channel. I am aware he is Australian...my condolences.

That newschannel has BEEN PROVEN BY STUDIES to slant and "edit" the news it is willing to report to the extent that people who watch it to the exclusion of other news are actually unaware of many current events. Even ones previously reported by Fox, but then ignored when things don't turn out as Fox wants. Notably items related to the Iraq war, but hardly isolated to that.

No I won't bother to reference the study, if you want I am sure you can find it.

If Rupert (Murdoch or Hentzau, just as you please) does in fact own that, his credibility is quite low, thank you very much. Just being palsy-walsy with "W" and others don't cut no ice.

No need to be sad, I know exactly what I am doing by suggesting "Hentzau" as an alternate. I am sure some people "got it", and it is not a "friendly" reference.

We are still waiting to see if the WSJ is going to be disassembled and re-created as a "pay-for-it-and-it's-now-news outlet". The current staff of the WSJ is NOT happy, I expect they will leave in droves. The word is that they are nearly universally appalled.

It is a subject on which TMT and I might likely agree, if his past posts are anything to go by.