PDA

View Full Version : Six minus three equals...?



Doc Nickel
08-22-2007, 07:12 PM
In an effort to bring the signal-to-noise ratio back up a bit, here's another project I did late last winter. Some of you may remember the first one (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=21956) I did, which was also cutting a 6" down to 3".

In the first one I used the front half, in order to save the machined-in-place front sight. This time, that wasn't possible due to the barrel profile, forcing me to come up with a way to move the sight back.

After a bit of contemplation, here's how I did it:

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw01.jpg

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw04.jpg

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw06.jpg

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw07.jpg

Cont'd next post.

Doc Nickel
08-22-2007, 07:14 PM
http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw09.jpg

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw11.jpg

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw12.jpg

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw13.jpg

Cont'd next post.

Doc Nickel
08-22-2007, 07:14 PM
http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw14.jpg

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw15.jpg

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw16.jpg

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw17.jpg

Cont'd next post, again...

Doc Nickel
08-22-2007, 07:15 PM
http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw18.jpg

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw19.jpg

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw20.jpg

http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/sw21.jpg

Doc.

BobWarfield
08-22-2007, 07:40 PM
That sort of work sure looks like fun, Doc!

Best,

BW

gzig5
08-22-2007, 07:42 PM
Probably quite a handfull and a bit of muzzle blast with full house loads. Nice job.

Alistair Hosie
08-22-2007, 07:46 PM
Doc Nice piece of engineering although I know nothing about guns I can see your quite an engineer.Regards Alistair

IOWOLF
08-22-2007, 07:59 PM
I bet that sonofabitch Barks with 44 Mag.shells.

deth502
08-22-2007, 08:03 PM
ok, kinda ot here, but...

has vp ever given thought/ been asked to do a gunsmithing mag???

i dont know if there would be enough intrest for it, but i know for sure id subscribe from the first issue.

for the most part, my favorite articles are the gunsmithing ones in mw

Evan
08-22-2007, 08:32 PM
Hmm. Not much balance in this post as far as home shop machining in Canada goes. While the ownership of pistols is still legal here it is illegal to modify a pistol to have a barrel less than 4.1 inches long.

I think posting information describing activities that are a felony offense is quite a bit more objectionable than my posts of metal fabrication.

platypus2020
08-22-2007, 08:43 PM
Doc,

First off, very nice work. I own 2 small caliber hand guns (.22 and 7mm) and have never fired a big caliber hand gun, how does cutting the barrel down affect the overall balance? is it harder to handle? and what about the accuracy?

Jack

Seastar
08-22-2007, 08:45 PM
Evan
I'm sorry you live in a totalitarian state and glad that I don't.
I, for one, enjoyed the post and the fine workmanship.
Tomorrow I am going to finish parkerizing my second 50 caliber machine gun.
Have fun up there.
Bill

Evan
08-22-2007, 08:54 PM
It's less totalitarian than the USA. We still have firearms.

We also have the freedom to travel and return at will. Too bad you can't say the same, at least not if you want to get back in again.

IOWOLF
08-22-2007, 09:05 PM
Evan, Since when did you get a Prescription for Grumpy Pills?

Go build something else, and Please, if it is not machinist oriented,don't be surprised if you get flamed.

Evan
08-22-2007, 09:14 PM
It works both ways. This board has a lot of members from outside the US.

IOWOLF
08-22-2007, 09:43 PM
So what is your point?

There are gun and anti -gunners,
There are Bible Thumper's and atheists,
Americans and all others,And on and on....
Big deal get over it.

Rustybolt
08-22-2007, 09:52 PM
Well. I thought it was superbly executed. Who knows, maybe those techniques could be useful to someone else in another area of work.

Doc Nickel
08-22-2007, 09:53 PM
I think posting information describing activities that are a felony offense is quite a bit more objectionable than my posts of metal fabrication.

-Serious question: Is there a reason you're being a jackass, Evan?

Your reply to my inquiry in your trailer post was basically "screw you, I'll do what I want!" and your reply here is clearly and unabashedly confrontational, where you're obviously reaching for some- any- excuse to bash me, personally.

You know that such gun work is quite legal in the United States, you know I live in the United States, and you know this board is owned by a US Citizen and hosted in the United States.

You're not that stupid, so clearly you're intentionally being a confrontational jackass.

Why is that?

Doc.

IOWOLF
08-22-2007, 09:56 PM
We are ALL waiting for your answer.

J.Ramsey
08-22-2007, 10:09 PM
Doc
Nice work keep it up,ignore the the posters that get mad if they are questioned about their work or don't get the response or the praise the think they deserve.

Ken_Shea
08-22-2007, 10:33 PM
Doc,
That is a nice mod you have done there.

A customer traded a similar gun (One of the S&W 3" 44 mag Lew Horton customs) in a few years back, right after he shot it, punishing to say the least :D
But most of the problem was with his thumb that recently had been bandaged up after losing the end of it, so when he shot it the recoil just jerked back the skin that was wrapped over and stitched to what was left of the end of his thumb.
Had to hurt :D
Still cringe when I think about it.

Ken

plastikosmd
08-22-2007, 10:34 PM
wish you lived closer doc...would love to come over and learn a bit from you....maybe a week with mr. addy, week with you then fly over and see sir john...only if i were rich..:)
scott

spkrman15
08-22-2007, 11:07 PM
Doc i like the post. I love pictures. I think it was one of the better posts. Maybe a little more description for us NON-Gun people.

How long did it take?

Rob :)

lazlo
08-22-2007, 11:30 PM
Beautiful machine-work Doc!
What kind of stainless is the 629 made from? Was it hard to turn (and bandsaw)?

That little beauty might be a good candidate for some compensating ports, like a Mag-na-port.

Willy
08-22-2007, 11:55 PM
Hmm. Not much balance in this post as far as home shop machining in Canada goes. While the ownership of pistols is still legal here it is illegal to modify a pistol to have a barrel less than 4.1 inches long.

I think posting information describing activities that are a felony offense is quite a bit more objectionable than my posts of metal fabrication.

Not true Evan, a firearm less than 4.1 in. is considered a prohibited weapon in Canada. It is not illegal to own such a firearm if you owned one previous to the last round of Liberal party gun owner bashing. I own several such handguns and I have been grandfathered under the current law. I can acquire as many handguns less than 4.1 in. as I like or sell to others that have been grandfathered under the current legislation.

I can also modify one of my handguns which is over 4.1 in. from the restricted class to the prohibited class. This modification would of course mean that I would have to re register the firearm. What a bunch of crap!

Anyway Doc, as the others have said beautiful work, wish I could lean over your shoulder for a few hours.

Yankee1
08-23-2007, 12:50 AM
Hello Doc,
I think your work is very good. Excellent pictures showing steps of the transition. I have a 7 1/2" super blackhawk that I've had for years. Its my favorite handgun. Recently I shot a S&W with a very short barrel. The accuracy was very good but the report had a great deal more blast. I was using 23 grs of 296 with mag primers and Keith 245 gr semi wadcutters.
It would have been a very good for someone who wore it for work.
I do quite a bit of work on competition air rifles. My latest is a LG110 Steyr
field target rifle set up for bench rest accuracy. Thanks for submitting your work for viewing.
Regards
Chuck

rbregn
08-23-2007, 01:28 AM
Nice work, If your anything like me the very first cut is the hardest! I always think "I hope this is right!" Then after that first cut it is all down hill from there!;)

Evan
08-23-2007, 01:33 AM
I'm not ignoring anyone, I went out to the shop to do some work and just now came back in.


-Serious question: Is there a reason you're being a jackass, Evan?

Your reply to my inquiry in your trailer post was basically "screw you, I'll do what I want!" and your reply here is clearly and unabashedly confrontational, where you're obviously reaching for some- any- excuse to bash me, personally.

You know that such gun work is quite legal in the United States, you know I live in the United States, and you know this board is owned by a US Citizen and hosted in the United States.

You know that such gun work is illegal in most countries including here if you aren't a grandfathered collector/gunsmith. You know that a good many members of this BBS do not live in the USA. You may not know that even accessing such information accidentally on the net is enough to get somebody in trouble with the authorities in some countries. This isn't an excuse to bash. It is a legitimate concern about the appropriateness of this post on an international forum.

Quote Neil



Please participate in the website activities as much as you are able (without giving up too much of your valuable shop time, that is). This is an interactive website designed for you to communicate with us and with other machinists around the world. Let us know how you like it and how we might be able to improve it.
Neil Knopf
Editor
(my emphasis)

Since this BBS is intended for an international audience it is only reasonable not to describe activities that are illegal in nearly all other countries.


As for me bashing someone, that's funny coming from you. Short memory eh?

Also, your "inquiry" was not an inquiry. It was a complaint. There are plenty of threads on this BBS that I never open or read as the apparent content doesn't interest me. I suggest you develop the same habit.

tattoomike68
08-23-2007, 01:47 AM
You know that such gun work is illegal in most countries including here if you aren't a grandfathered collector/gunsmith. You know that a good many members of this BBS do not live in the USA. You may not know that even accessing such information accidentally on the net is enough to get somebody in trouble with the authorities in some countries. This isn't an excuse to bash. It is a legitimate concern about the appropriateness of this post on an international forum.



Thats all your problem, we dont live under your laws. Knowing the laws of your land is your resposiblity and so is obeying them.

We know what the laws are.



U.S. Constitution: Second Amendment
A well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State, the right of the people to keep and bear Arms, shall not be infringed.

Evan
08-23-2007, 02:08 AM
This isn't a debate about the right to bear arms. It's about what is appropriate content for a forum read around the world with members in many countries. Doc started out by criticizing my fabrication work as inappropriate for this BBS. I am pointing out that this is far less appropriate.

Also, let me remind Doc of what it says on the masthead of the web site here:

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/hsm1.jpg

I would say that the part circled in red includes fabrication.

ProGunOne
08-23-2007, 02:08 AM
Very Impressive work. Thanks for sharing the details and pictures.

tattoomike68
08-23-2007, 02:14 AM
Evan needs a bong hit.

Joel
08-23-2007, 02:15 AM
It's less totalitarian than the USA. We still have firearms.

We also have the freedom to travel and return at will. Too bad you can't say the same, at least not if you want to get back in again.

I'm not sure how that particular post could be taken as much other than an attempt to inflame and 'bash'.

I am mildly surprised (and pleased) that no one felt the need to bother defending against it. I will only point out that both America and Canada are both fine countries with many good people living in each. A bit of patriotism is not a bad thing, nor is the ability to maintain objectivity in the face of aggravation.

quasi
08-23-2007, 02:39 AM
Nice work and post Doc, please keep contributing. I am a Canadian and I own a factory 629 3" with round butt. With full loads on an indoor range, I have never fired 6 shots from it without everyone on the range leaving! The muzzle blast is inhuman.

I once fired it outdoors with no hearing protection, once. It felt like someone stuck shiskabob skewers in both my ear drums. It took about 3 days for my hearing to come back, mostly.

I know of a couple of gunsmiths here who make a good percentage of their living shortening 6 and 8 " revolvers to 4.1" (actually 105 mm).

Tinkerer
08-23-2007, 02:40 AM
I thinks Doc's project/post was all about precision machine work. Well Done.

Doc Nickel
08-23-2007, 03:24 AM
how does cutting the barrel down affect the overall balance? is it harder to handle? and what about the accuracy?

-As for balance, I prefer it. Less weight out at the end of a long lever, feels better to me. Your mileage may vary. As for ease of handling, that was part reason for the mod. Like the last one, this is a in-case-of-bears gun; the owner agreed with you fellows, and eventually decided the .357, while probably capable, wasn't quite capable enough.

The shorter barrel and lighter weight- relatively speaking- make it a bit quicker to draw and handle, and more comfortable to carry. And as before, a marginal gun you have on you, beats a .600 Loudenboumer that you left back at camp. :D

Accuracy wise, it printed six shots in a palm's width at 35 to 40 yards, offhand and double-action. That's more than adequate for the task at hand.


It's less totalitarian than the USA. We still have firearms.

-That you need permits and permission to own. In the US, we can buy, sell and trade freely- in most juristictions- with no paperwork at all, perfectly legally. We can also- again, prefectly legally- let our neices shoot machine guns (http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/mg007.jpg) and our friends shoot integreally-suppressed rifles (http://www.docsmachine.com/nonPB/amga11.jpg).

Alaska- the state I happen to be a resident of- allows for the free and unpermitted carrying of concealed weapons. Again, no paperwork, no cards, no hassles. Carry anything from a .50 Desert Eagle down to a .32 Seecamp, or, if I want, both. :D

Totalitarian, is it? Or are you just looking for a reason to grump?


Maybe a little more description for us NON-Gun people.

-Easy. I chopped the barrel with a small air-powered abrasive cutoff wheel (I needed a thinner kerf than the full size chop saw) then used the same tool to slice the top third off the remnant. Then it was a simple matter of milling down the remnant so it was nothing but the sight ramp, and the grooved portion, and right at .250" wide.

Mill a slot in the top of the back half to fit it, and solder in place. It's not even particularly exotic solder, but the part is light enough with a large enough bearing surface- both were well-tinned before assembly- that it shouldn't be a problem.

The muzzle was 'dished' slightly- five degrees on the compound, as I recall- and a very light chamfer put on the crown at 45 degrees. The roll-marked lettering I very carefully polished away with a Dremel, and laboriously sanded the contour and matched the glossy-brushed stock finish.

All fairly straight forward, took about four hours, as I recall.


What kind of stainless is the 629 made from? Was it hard to turn (and bandsaw)?

-Don't know the exact alloy, I'm sure S&W could supply me with such info should I desire it, but suffice to say it was pretty tough. The .357 job cost me two or three inserts- or corners, anyway- but this one had much less interrupted cutting. The slices were made with an abrasive saw- I expected the stainless to dull a hacksaw blade in short order.


That little beauty might be a good candidate for some compensating ports, like a Mag-na-port.

-I'm told that's being contemplated, and I agree. I've had the chance to try a couple of .454 Cassull's side-by-side; one a 6" ported, the other a 12" unported. The ported gun, despite being around half a pound lighter, had noticibly less jump. Same amount of recoil, of course, but much less muzzle jump.


This isn't an excuse to bash. It is a legitimate concern about the appropriateness of this post on an international forum.

-That's odd. You never even mentioned that in (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=255763&postcount=9) any (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=255822&postcount=18) of (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=255975&postcount=35) the (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=256004&postcount=37) eleven (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=256082&postcount=44) posts (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=256109&postcount=47) you (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=256149&postcount=52) made (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=256199&postcount=56) in (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=256201&postcount=58) my (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=256202&postcount=59) last (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=256241&postcount=61) snubby (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=256313&postcount=63)-gun (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=256328&postcount=65) thread (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=21956), even though the discussion specifically touched on Canadian gun law. Why bring it up now?


As for me bashing someone, that's funny coming from you. Short memory eh?

-Nope. I specifically (http://www.docsmachine.com/machineshop/saw2.gif) recall you grumping- much like now- about what you continually insisted was a horrendous and badly-thought-out "design flaw" on your circular saw, based wholly and entirely on the fact that you chopped your own cord, twice, due to the way you held the saw "at rest".

We- at least I- pointed out at interminable length how that "flaw" you spoke of- the cord coming out of the base of the handgrip- was in fact, present in every single commercial circular saw available on the market today, encompassing at least sixteen models across no less than seven brands.

After which, you spent a great deal of time trying to explain just how "stupid" that idea was, utterly and obstinately refusing to even consider that it might, after all, in fact, not be all that flawed, if, as the evidence clearly showed, that not one manufacturer used any other method of attaching the cord, and then dived quickly into personal attacks- again, as now, and again in the roof-safety-line thread- when the argument didn't go your way.

On the other hand, here, I illustrated a perfectly legal procedure- and, it should be pointed out, one perfectly legal in Canada as well, as long as the operator simply leaves the barrel the correct length- and you reached deep into obscure Canadian legal minutiae in order to bash the mod, despite having ignored that exact same point of law almost nine months ago when you posted no less than eleven times- about Canadian gun laws- in a thread about a near-identical gun mod I'd done before.

Really Evan, you've gone past "obstinate grump" and moved into outright whining.


Also, your "inquiry" was not an inquiry. It was a complaint. There are plenty of threads on this BBS that I never open or read as the apparent content doesn't interest me. I suggest you develop the same habit.

-Certainly. So by that same stroke, I can then post reviews of my favorite new heavy-metal bands here, as well as the latest "Bush is Stupid" chain-E-Mail, and a lengthy dissertation on hacking the new iPhone? After all, if you don't like any of that, you can just not click on it, right?

Look, there's a reason people don't go to Photo.net (http://photo.net/community/) and post articles about X-Box games, and they don't go to Muscle-car (http://photo.net/community/) forums and start posting recipies for beefalo burger. I don't go to Strobist (http://www.strobist.blogspot.com/) and look for articles on TIG-welding, and I don't go to Toolmonger (http://www.toolmonger.com/) to read up on india-inking techniques for bristol board.

Your recent projects, as interesting as they are, are simply in the wrong place. There's very little or no machining to them. They would be far better suited to the Miller welding boards, Adrian's Metal Illness boards, or the MetalFab boards.


I would say that the part circled in red includes fabrication.

-I disagree. There's nothing "precision" about an abrasive chop saw and a MIG welder. Stairs, wagons and railings are not what, I think, anyone would consider "machinist" projects.

And again, ignore it again if you wish, but again, I'm not saying you- or anyone else- need to stop posting such projects; what I am saying is perhaps we don't need to see each and every little tinkerey and whatsit you crank out.

Do you post every single photo you take to Photobucket or Flikr (or whatever hosting method you use?) Of course not- you only show the best.

Same idea here. Tractor's vaguely interesting, but again, it barely, if at all, involved precision machinework, and the result appeared as something we might have seen on Junkyard Wars. Instead of flooding us with fluff- and I'm not the only one complaining, oh he of selective memory- save back just the best of it, and if you feel like showing off your fridge-rack grilles and dryer hood scoops, trust me, the guys on the welding and general fab boards will be considerably more receptive.


I know of a couple of gunsmiths here who make a good percentage of their living shortening 6 and 8 " revolvers to 4.1" (actually 105 mm).

-I found out that I can buy 6" and 8" take-off (used) barrels all day long for pennies on the dollar. But a new 3" was $150 from the factory, and are almost never found for sale used. More people want the snubbies that the Dirty Harry Specials. :D

Doc.

J.Ramsey
08-23-2007, 04:10 AM
Doc
I didn't know you were a cartoonist/illustrator also:D

Davek0974
08-23-2007, 04:16 AM
I think posting information describing activities that are a felony offense is quite a bit more objectionable than my posts of metal fabrication.

WTF?

Nearly ALL guns are banned here in the UK :( Shotguns are ok at present if you have a reason to own one!

I thought that was an excellent piece of engineering and very well executed and finished, probably got a nice kick-back when its fired :)

I can not see the point in posting information stating local laws etc. The poster was not telling anyone to make the described mods, just showing his work. If i chose to shorten my shotgun 10", it would be because I wanted to do it not because i saw it somewhere.

Give us grownups a chance to make our own minds up as to what we do.

Dave

Evan
08-23-2007, 05:32 AM
I'm not sure how that particular post could be taken as much other than an attempt to inflame and 'bash'.

I am mildly surprised (and pleased) that no one felt the need to bother defending against it.
But describing our government as "totalitarian" isn't an attempt to inflame and bash? As for defending against it, that would be difficult since it is true.


I can not see the point in posting information stating local laws etc. The poster was not telling anyone to make the described mods, just showing his work. If i chose to shorten my shotgun 10", it would be because I wanted to do it not because i saw it somewhere.

Give us grownups a chance to make our own minds up as to what we do.
You might note that I haven't expressed any opinion as to whether I think such a modification is a good idea or not nor have I argued for or against the right to own firearms.

It is a question of appropriateness as the effect of posting such information can not only result in the direct censorship of this website in some countries but might even place somebody in jeopardy.


Totalitarian, is it? Or are you just looking for a reason to grump?
I suggest you review the Patriot Act.




and you reached deep into obscure Canadian legal minutiae in order to bash the mod,
Deep into obscure minutiae? That's rich. Barrel length restrictions are one of the most common restrictions imposed in nearly every jurisdiction that allows any sort of firearm ownership.



I can then post reviews of my favorite new heavy-metal bands here, as well as the latest "Bush is Stupid" chain-E-Mail, and a lengthy dissertation on hacking the new iPhone?
A good example of a logical fallacy. You claim my posts are off topic. That is then used to present a False Dilemma argument. Sorry, but that choice is not in question here. Try posting some of that and we will see how it goes.


-That's odd. You never even mentioned that in any of theeleven posts you made in my last snubby-gun thread, even though the discussion specifically touched on Canadian gun law. Why bring it up now?
Whether I mentioned it before or not doesn't change the argument. However, certain recent events such as the e-Bay ban do. It shows that they are most likely concerned about the same problems that I now point out. It also shows how seriously they regard the problem.

It seems Doc isn't very comfortable when the shoe is on the other foot.

Virgil Johnson
08-23-2007, 06:26 AM
Very nice machine work Doc. Nice picture documentation also.

Joel
08-23-2007, 06:29 AM
But describing our government as "totalitarian" isn't an attempt to inflame and bash?
Unfortunately, it appears to have been successful. Yes, I think it was an overreaction to an overreaction, but I can't imagine that any intelligent person here really thinks the statement true.


As for defending against it, that would be difficult since it is true.

Obviously I disagree.

Doc Nickel
08-23-2007, 06:43 AM
But describing our government as "totalitarian" isn't an attempt to inflame and bash?

-Gosh, I wonder who brought up (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=301812&postcount=13) the concept of "totalitarianism" in this thread.


It is a question of appropriateness as the effect of posting such information can not only result in the direct censorship of this website in some countries but might even place somebody in jeopardy.

-That's horsesh*t and you know it, Evan. As already noted in this thread, the UK- which I think we can both agree is pretty restrictive on firearms ownership- has yet to inflict a China-style ban on HSM, even though we've been discussing firearms mods for at least five years (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=1007) (and mentioning the RCMP maybe taking a dislike to a threaded barrel, no less.)

And in any case, "direct censorship"- as you well know, but are intentionally obfuscating the issue- simply means some small country would filter it out at the local server level. It would have zero effect on this board and/or it's operation, with the possible exception of a few people being unable to access it anymore.


Deep into obscure minutiae? That's rich. Barrel length restrictions are one of the most common restrictions imposed in nearly every jurisdiction that allows any sort of firearm ownership.

-Certainly. For rifles. There's essentially no restriction on handgun barrel length in the US. Well, come to think of it, it might be 2-1/2", but that's all but unenforced, as I know S&W has at least one "airweight" in .38 special that has a 1-7/8" barrel.

In any case, even if there was a restriction at 2.5", this guns' 3-1/8" is well over that, but you still want to decry and denigrate it over Canadian requirements, which I have to admit I had never heard of before today.

And besides all that, you yourself declared that, when people started quoting actual facts at you over your roof-harness, that you didn't care about OSHA (or equivalent Canadian) safety regulations, as it was private use, to be used only by you, and on your own roof.

You only seem worried about rules when it suits you.


A good example of a logical fallacy. You claim my posts are off topic. That is then used to present a False Dilemma argument. Sorry, but that choice is not in question here.

-It is, whether you wish to admit it or not. This board is specialized; it is not "general interest", nor "general fabrication", nor does it specialize in welding techniques.

All have been discussed here- and more- but they are off topic. And again- since you seem to keep ignoring the statement- I'm not staying stop. I'm saying maybe we don't need to see everything you stick, screw, glue or nail together, and maybe, just maybe, you ought to save the stuff you build with machine tools for posting.

Or, perhaps do like FRETS and post the projects to your own pages, and let us see them if we so choose.


Whether I mentioned it before or not doesn't change the argument.

-Sure it does. You only mentioned it now, knowing it's a specious argument, because it suits your ego to try and take my post down a mental peg or two.

The last time, you discussed Canadian gun laws at length, and in a thread where I chopped a gun barrel down to three inches- just like this one. But apparently the issue of it's legality and your concern over the hazard it poses to this board and it's readers, wasn't worth mentioning back then.


However, certain recent events such as the e-Bay ban do. It shows that they are most likely concerned about the same problems that I now point out. It also shows how seriously they regard the problem.

-Oh? And how so? Ebay is a private affair, and being multinational- meaning they actually have Canadian and UK and other offices, not just that their pages are viewable from other countries- and dealing with and being directly involved in the cross-border sales of damn near everything, they took whatever steps they deemed necessary.

That is not a government function, it was not a restriction imposed on them by some court, it was purely internal.

This board, on the other hand, handles no sales and has no regional offices. If the owners or moderators decide that something should not be posted, we try to follow those proscriptions, but that's as close as the analogy goes.

Were I to post something actually illegal, say, the instructions on how to make a pipe-bomb, the relevant authorities would hardly bother the board owners for anything more than my IP address, so they could come and whisk me, personally, away. The liability of the HSM owners would not extend much further than deleting the offending post.

And you know all this, sir. You're no idiot. But you are trying to deliberately confuse the issue with a few misplaced crocodile tears. Do you think the rest of us don't see that quite plainly?


It seems Doc isn't very comfortable when the shoe is on the other foot.

-I'm comfortable wherever the shoe is lodged. On the other hand, after three such shouting matches (this thread, the safety-rope and the circular saw) it's quite clear you cannot and will not admit the slightest error, instead putting in considerable effort in confusing the issue, ignoring points you can't argue, and moving on to other targets (wait, what does eBay have to do with Canadian barrel-length laws again? And why do Canadian laws concern an Alaskan firearm?)

You know what would have shorted this whole shooting match- so to speak- off at the starting line? If in my original post in your trailer thread, you'd been the least bit apologetic.

"Apologize for what?!?" you roar, of course. I didn't say "apologize", I said "apologetic". As in actually recognizing that other people use and read and browse this board besides you, and their tastes, opinions and concept of what this board should be and cover, just might differ a bit from yours.

Your reply to my post basically smacked of "tough titty, I'll do whatever I want to do", when all that was required was something along the lines of "I'm sorry, I didn't know anyone felt that way. It's just that I've finally been able to accomplish so much that I..." yadda yadda etcetera.

You know, actually acknowledging some of the rest of us as equals, not peons or sycophants.

Doc.

Peter N
08-23-2007, 07:05 AM
I think you're all splitting hairs too much.

As long as it has a technical/engineering/metalwork content then personally I'm quite happy to see it and read it on this board.
FWIW I enjoyed both Doc Nickels (this) and Evans recent dump-truck post, even though I have no particular interest at all in the specifics of them.

Peter

rbregn
08-23-2007, 07:49 AM
I agree with the hair splitting statement!. Altho There is a lot more precision machining on the pistol then the wagon! :eek:

deth502
08-23-2007, 08:48 AM
i like disturbed,and breaking benjamin, but theyre not that new of bands :D

geeze, and i was going to post pics of the wood lathe i made thats mostly welded. glad i didnt do that!!!

geraldvowles
08-23-2007, 08:53 AM
Perhaps it's beneficial to ask ourselves why this is a sensitive issue between two normally good neighbours with more in common than not. One of the differences is that here in Canada, we've enjoyed a much lower per capita hand gun murder rate than our neighbours to the south (this is even more the case in the UK actually). Unfortunately, for the past several years, there has been a growing flood of illegally imported handguns, including "mods" into Canada from the US with an associated spike in murders, mainly gang related. Unfortunately also, there is a growing number of "caught-in-the crossfire" type deaths and even pre-mediated "hits" involving children.

There are those who have been heard to say that it is, therefore, our "lax" approach to border security that's the problem.

Some of these same people then take it a little further and "tell" us to then arm ourselves for protection, obviously opening the door to the perception? belief? reality? or misperception? that "the Americans" are once again trying to force their beliefs and standards on others (us in this case) backed up by - you guessed it - firepower. If you think about it, a pretty typical, human-nature reaction to any similar situation involving any two or more distinct societies or countries. We're all awfully similar in that regard aren't we!

There are those who look a little more carefully at this hand gun "in-flow" problem and say "aha, but this is not the cause of the problem." And, to be fair to all, there is no easy answer to the cause or causes of this, the "real" problem. In fact, it has become so bad - as we see it - that it is one of the prime motivators in the recent decision to begin arming our border guards along the US border.

These changes for the worse represent a pretty radical and highly troubling change in our society that very few, I'd like to think, would say is okay or right. Problem is, the source country for nearly all of these guns has been proven time and again and, as in an free country, this gets reported in the news with rather obvious results.

It's human nature, that our frustrations often get expressed seemingly "out of the blue" but I submit that it may be possible that my fellow Canadian whose comment "triggered" (couldn't resist that) this debate may in fact have been influenced by the growing alarm being felt here in Canada about this very hot-button issue. I can say honestly that I do understand him in this context.

My thoughts anyway,
Gerry

Your Old Dog
08-23-2007, 09:26 AM
Nice job Doc! Either you are fully confident in your machining abilities or you got much bigger cajones than me :D

I drug out my Model 60 as my first engraving effort some 30 years ago. Now it's a carried concealed for two reasons ! No one ever gets to see it. The engraving job really sucked although at the time I thought I was ready to go to work for Winston Churchill or Lynton McKenzie !!

I saw one 3" tube that I really liked, it was on a J frame with round butt. If I ever pick up a longer barrelld J frame round butt I may consider your project. First I'll have to grow some big ones !!

rbregn
08-23-2007, 09:52 AM
There are enough laws on the books in any country to live safely if they were enforced. I personally am from the United States although I currently reside in China. If you want to talk gun laws I have experienced both extremes. Personally I'll take the second amendment any day. Anyone who wants to blame our freedom to bear arms as problems for gun deaths in their country or ours for that matter is blinded by the fact that maybe the real problem is personal responsibility, not from the government but from family upbringing. Yes, there are always a few bad apples in the bunch but that is what the laws are for. Anybody who trusts their government to protect them are the biggest fools or have their head buried in the sand the deepest. I am no gun nut, but will not let ANYONE take mine from me. I also think that while my government is nowhere near perfect, it is one of the best systems out there. Do I trust it. Hell no, no more then I trust yours! One thing I have learned living in different countries. When you get right down to the basics we all want the same thing. To be safe and happy. Some people just want their hands held more then others. Sorry, but my family gets to hold mine, so I can't help you there! I'll stand by my first statement, There is a lot more precision machining in this post compared to making a wagon!

There I'll get off my soapbox!
Rob:eek:

J Tiers
08-23-2007, 10:11 AM
Please recall when replying to Evan that he, along with some others on the forum, can be expected to have certain opinions. This, because he is a US citizen who opted to move to and stay in a foreign country. Obviously he had various reasons, some of which he has explained here.

But, why is it a surprise that he is not a great fan of the US and US policies?

Likewise, some others who are citizens of countries as far away as it is possible to get, in some cases, also do not express "delight" with policies and laws in the US.

In neither case is it any of their business, really, so why get upset about their opinions? To a large degree, their opinions are irrelevant with regard to internal US policies. They do naturally, or have chosen to, live under a different set of laws in a foreign country, and do not participate in US politics or the legal system.

Their opinions are their own problem, and do not make them lesser people, reduce their intellectual capacity, or cause their shop projects to be of lower quality. They need not cause any strife here.

So let it be.....

dp
08-23-2007, 10:28 AM
What we've had in this thread is people questioning the wisdom of what others have posted. I question the wisdom of that.

Evan
08-23-2007, 10:37 AM
But describing our government as "totalitarian" isn't an attempt to inflame and bash?

-Gosh, I wonder who brought up (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=301812&postcount=13) the concept of "totalitarianism" in this thread.
Try post number 12 Doc. I didn't bring it up.



Seastar said

Evan
I'm sorry you live in a totalitarian state and glad that I don't.




It is a question of appropriateness as the effect of posting such information can not only result in the direct censorship of this website in some countries but might even place somebody in jeopardy.
-That's horsesh*t and you know it, Evan.

Far from it I'm afraid. Australia is making available free internet filtering software as we "speak" to all who want it and are beginning ISP level filtering trials in weeks or months. Pro gun web sites will be on the list.

This isn't about gun control or the right to bear arms. It's about the appropriateness of this thread on this forum. This is something you brought up regarding my posting of a fabrication project and I am arguing that this thread is much less appropriate than my thread is. My thread won't result in this BBS being placed on international filter lists and doesn't contain content deemed to be illegal or undesirable in some allied countries.

Ken_Shea
08-23-2007, 10:49 AM
Well......... I'm full !

tattoomike68
08-23-2007, 11:31 AM
Doc and Evan :D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GbtyRwBmH18

Evan
08-23-2007, 11:34 AM
Now that's funny. :D

Seastar
08-23-2007, 01:58 PM
Evan
I apologize for bashing Canada!
I respect my neighbor to the North (38 miles north of me just now).
I promise I won't invade or send any guns your way.
I did not mean to start a flame session.
I was offended by the post and overreacted.

Doc and all the others--
I'm still glad I live where I can build and shoot military 30 and 50 caliber machineguns and cannons and collect and shoot all sorts of firearms - a lifelong hobby.

I enjoyed the original post. Fine workmanship.
Bill

lazlo
08-23-2007, 02:07 PM
I apologize for bashing Canada!

I don't know why you're the one apologizing Seastar :rolleyes:


I'm still glad I live where I can build and shoot military 30 and 50 caliber machineguns and cannons

Is it legal in the US to build a Class 3 (fully automatic) weapon? Do you have to use pre MAY, 1986 parts?

I'd love to build the D&E Gatling gun, but with a power feed mechanism :)

IOWOLF
08-23-2007, 02:47 PM
Jump thru some Batf hoops and pay your $200 fee and do it.

kevindsingleton
08-23-2007, 02:50 PM
Doc,

I'm interested to know how you centered the barrel in the lathe for facing and crowning. What surface did you use as a reference for indicating the barrel?

lazlo
08-23-2007, 02:53 PM
Jump thru some Batf hoops and pay your $200 fee and do it.

I know you can do that for pre '86 weapons Wolfie, but I just wanted to confirm that the BATF "Form 4" applies to building a new Class 3 weapon?''

andy_b
08-23-2007, 03:31 PM
a very interesting thread, i must admit. Doc, beautiful work on the pistol. i also liked the last one you did.

as to "building" a "fully automatic Class III machinegun" in the U.S., that is illegal no matter what forms you fill out unless you are a licensed manufacturer. you can PURCHASE a pre-1986 machinegun after filling out the required paperwork and paying $200, but you can not BUILD one (meaning manufacture) as a private citizen.

you can legally build suppressors and shorten rifle and shotgun barrels to restricted lengths as long as you again fill out the forms and pay the $200. i have never read a federal law stating a legal minimum pistol barrel length. not to say one doesn't exist.

andy b.

ps - Doc, my niece's first Class III exposure was a suppressed select-fire M-11. she was all of 8 years old. :)

lazlo
08-23-2007, 03:47 PM
as to "building" a "fully automatic Class III machinegun" in the U.S., that is illegal no matter what forms you fill out unless you are a licensed manufacturer. you can PURCHASE a pre-1986 machinegun after filling out the required paperwork and paying $200, but you can not BUILD one (meaning manufacture) as a private citizen.

That's what I thought. It sounds like you could squeak-by using the receiver from a pre 1986 weapon, but I don't want to make it a Federal test case either.

Seastar
08-23-2007, 04:08 PM
You can legally build a full auto Browning 30 or 50 Caliber machinegun from a registered right side plate. The right side plate is considered by the BATF to be the "gun" and must be legally transfered to you. That's easy to do.
All of the Brownings I have built are semi-automatic and you can build as many of those as you wish with no paperwork or government notification as long as you don't engage in a buisiness of manufacturing guns for sale.
I am currently looking for a registered side plate for a 1919A4 30 cal Browning or I may just buy one.
Most people think that full auto machine guns are illegal. That's not true. Any American citizen can own a full auto gun - all you need to do is the BATF paper work and pay the $200 tax stamp fee.
Sorry to hijack the thread but I started this.
Bill

Joel
08-23-2007, 04:44 PM
I don't know why you're the one apologizing Seastar :rolleyes:

Perhaps, just to demonstrate that it can be done, that it is just barely possible for a thinking person to be wrong once in awhile and admit it. :eek:


I will now attempt to join the ranks of those wise enough to keep their mouths shut. :o

bhjones
08-23-2007, 04:45 PM
I believe there are a handful of states that prohibit full auto.

I'm curious, does the Fed consider the sale of any gun manufactured by an individual to be manufacturing guns for sale or is it a volume thing? It would be nice to be able to sell off a project once it's complete to fund the project that follows it.


You can legally build a full auto Browning 30 or 50 Caliber machinegun from a registered right side plate. The right side plate is considered by the BATF to be the "gun" and must be legally transfered to you. That's easy to do.
All of the Brownings I have built are semi-automatic and you can build as many of those as you wish with no paperwork or government notification as long as you don't engage in a buisiness of manufacturing guns for sale.
I am currently looking for a registered side plate for a 1919A4 30 cal Browning or I may just buy one.
Most people think that full auto machine guns are illegal. That's not true. Any American citizen can own a full auto gun - all you need to do is the BATF paper work and pay the $200 tax stamp fee.
Sorry to hijack the thread but I started this.
Bill

IOWOLF
08-23-2007, 04:59 PM
a very interesting thread, i must admit. Doc, beautiful work on the pistol. i also liked the last one you did.

as to "building" a "fully automatic Class III machinegun" in the U.S., that is illegal no matter what forms you fill out unless you are a licensed manufacturer. you can PURCHASE a pre-1986 machinegun after filling out the required paperwork and paying $200, but you can not BUILD one (meaning manufacture) as a private citizen.

you can legally build suppressors and shorten rifle and shotgun barrels to restricted lengths as long as you again fill out the forms and pay the $200. i have never read a federal law stating a legal minimum pistol barrel length. not to say one doesn't exist.

andy b.

ps - Doc, my niece's first Class III exposure was a suppressed select-fire M-11. she was all of 8 years old. :)


It was mine also, .380 FA suppressed 32 rounds sounded like a quiet sewing machine, then the brass hit the gravel, Ching-a- ling ching ching. Sweet soundless surprise

deth502
08-23-2007, 05:06 PM
Is it legal in the US to build a Class 3 (fully automatic) weapon? Do you have to use pre MAY, 1986 parts?

I'd love to build the D&E Gatling gun, but with a power feed mechanism :)

i beleive its legal to convert (build???) a semi auto rifle to fa w/ a registered auto-sear. the atf conciders the auto sear to be the "machinegun" and it is registered as such, and yes, it had to have been made and registered before 86 and you do have to do the $200 transfer of it.

this is why you see rifles for sale that ARENT fa, that say "sear ready". you still need the registered sear.

IOWOLF
08-23-2007, 05:06 PM
In Iowa, We can have class 3 firearms we just have to keep them in a sheriffs armory and fill out paper work to get them out each time you go shoot them, which has to be done a week or 2 in advance.
You can NOT keep them in your home.But I will trade that BS for my right to concealed carry,thank you.

lazlo
08-23-2007, 05:30 PM
I believe there are a handful of states that prohibit full auto.

Yeah, but I'm in Texas -- they hand out Class 3 licenses with your birth certificate here :D

J.Ramsey
08-23-2007, 05:43 PM
Don't know about Iowa but in Kansas concealed carry is a privilege if you take an approved training course and pass the KBI back ground check.

Doc Nickel
08-23-2007, 06:29 PM
Far from it I'm afraid. Australia is making available free internet filtering software as we "speak" to all who want it and are beginning ISP level filtering trials in weeks or months. Pro gun web sites will be on the list.

... And? Filtering software is and has been available for years. My own site- which deals in paintball guns- has been 'filtered' by any number of schools, according to students who have attempted to view it while at school- simply because it contains the word "gun". In several cases, I'm told, it also filtered sites like Amazon.com, CNN.com, and thinkgeek.com, because they used words like "staple gun", "screw gun" and "caulking gun".

This is an issue for the entity emplacing the filtering software, not us or the board.

And again, even if it were our concern, your crocodile tears have come at least five years too late, as I already noted, since we've been discussing firearms on this board since it's inception. Why is it a concern now, all of a sudden?


It's about the appropriateness of this thread on this forum. This is something you brought up regarding my posting of a fabrication project and I am arguing that this thread is much less appropriate than my thread is.

-Of course. A project that directly involved both a mill and a lathe is somehow less appropriate for a precision machinist bulletin board than your chopsaw-and-MIG-welder project, based entirely on the possible effect a US project might have on an Australian ISP due to a Canadian gun law.

Sure, makes perfect sense.


I'm still glad I live where I can build and shoot military 30 and 50 caliber machineguns and cannons and collect and shoot all sorts of firearms - a lifelong hobby.

-I recently had (another) chance to participate in a machine gun shoot by some locals. All fully legal and papered, and owned by a couple of guys that enjoy nothing more than letting people who would ordinarily never have the opportunity to shoot one, well, shoot one. :D

Over the course of two or three such events in the last couple of years, I've had the chance to fire an Uzi (both suppressed and unsuppressed) a suppressed 10-22 (which is scary quiet) a 14" barreled M4 carbine (the pic of my neice posted earlier in this thread) a US clone of a Sterling, an original 1943 German MP-40, an MP-5k PDW, and a Browning M1919A1 air-cooled belt-fed, which had been converted to some European 8mm round as the guy could get it dirt-cheap on the surplus market.

They were all a great deal of fun, but it's a horribly expensive hobby. Twenty grand for a belt-fed something or other? Nah, I'd rather have another mill. :D


I'm interested to know how you centered the barrel in the lathe for facing and crowning. What surface did you use as a reference for indicating the barrel?

-Nothing more than grabbing the barrel by the frame threads in my six-jaw. Yes, it was a bit more stickout than I'd like, but I was careful and took very light cuts. The six-jaw spread the load out so the threads weren't damaged.

I used a turned spud similar to the first job, just to check concentricity, and it was less than a thou off. Were it a benchrest rifle I'd have taken more care, but it's a snubby close-range revolver, so a slight misalignment of the crown was deemed irrelevant.

On the .357 earlier, I milled an aluminum "bridge" that slid over the front sight, so I could hold it properly in my four-jaw, since I was needing to do a lot more than just light facing cuts, and I wanted it spot-on concentric.

Doc.

IOWOLF
08-23-2007, 07:05 PM
Worth a look,It will answer some questions, and create some more for some of you.

http://www.homegunsmith.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=SF;f=98

tattoomike68
08-23-2007, 07:09 PM
I see the 6 jaw chuck, thats a sweet unit. Im sure those are costly.

quasi
08-23-2007, 07:13 PM
Americans are justly proud of their constitution and the freedoms it guarentees The Patriot act is very scary to read, it is a Stalinist's dream.

tattoomike68
08-23-2007, 07:26 PM
As an American I promise not to post plans to make missle batteries with incendiary warheads , so you guys have to figure it out for yourself. LOL

:D

Besides, the AK-47's are comming into the USA through the mexican mafia, thats where that stuff come from. I know.

lazlo
08-23-2007, 07:30 PM
You can legally build a full auto Browning 30 or 50 Caliber machinegun from a registered right side plate. The right side plate is considered by the BATF to be the "gun" and must be legally transfered to you.

Thanks Bill -- that's very interesting. Rebuilding a Browning .30 would be a lot of fun (maybe even more than building a Gatling)! I'll have to call around and see how much a side plate runs in Texas... By the way, have you seen the beautiful scale models that Bill Pace and company (here on HSM) have built?


Sorry to hijack the thread but I started this.

No, it's good. It's machinery-related, and I'm pretty sure Doc doesn't mind.

Evan
08-23-2007, 07:50 PM
Why is it a concern now, all of a sudden?

Because the world and the internet environment is changing.

I'm not talking about commonly available filter software. Try doing a little research about what is going on lately with net policing.

Australia is implementing ISP level mandatory non-optional filtering.

This was announced last week by the Australian prime minister.



Wednesday August 15, 2007
Australian Prime Minister Announces Internet Filtering Plans

John Howard, the Prime Minister of Australia, last week announced a $189 million plan aimed at "cleaning up the internet" for families. This includes strategies to block pornography and strengthen efforts that search for sexual predators in chat rooms and on social networking sites.
...

Sites on the Australian Communications and Media Authority's (AMCA) "black list," which primarily include porn and terror sites, will be among those policed heavily. To further step up its efforts, the AMCA will add 14 new Net regulators to its team.
http://www.appscout.com/2007/08/australian_prime_minister_anno.php

They will start by providing client level software but intend to move quickly to ISP level blocking.

Not specifically mentioned is that the blocklist includes gun related sites. That specifically includes sites that deal in "do it yourself" gun making or modification. That is considered "terrorist activity".

Also see here:
http://www.australianit.news.com.au/story/0,24897,22218715-15306,00.html

Australia isn't the only one. Aside from countries such as China and the UAE British Telecom has already implemented ISP level filtering called "CleanFeed" that blocks some content. More will follow.


A project that directly involved both a mill and a lathe is somehow less appropriate for a precision machinist bulletin board than your chopsaw-and-MIG-welder project, based entirely on the possible effect a US project might have on an Australian ISP due to a Canadian gun law.

Sure, makes perfect sense.

Sounds like full-on ostrich mode to me. Your take on it only makes sense if you are happy with a nice cozy little world that only includes the USA with no troublesome intrusions of reality to deal with. The internet has been largely borderless until now. Balkanizing it is not in the best interest of the users of the net or the free flow of information. Posting material in a public forum that serves to justify such attempts to control the net is irresponsible and gives ammunition to those that would restrict free speech. This is particularly the case in this thread as it amounts to a set of instructions on how to make a short barreled weapon that is easy to conceal. Information such as this is high on the list these days of things that "shouldn't be allowed".

I would also challenge you to provide a definition of "precision". It's a term that is 100% relative to what is being made. It has no absolute "value" and I may characterize my fabrication work as precision with as much right as my astronomical instruments.

For example, when I twist the pickets of the railings I make sure that all the pickets have not just the same number of twists but that they all start and stop in close alignment within a few degrees. The cumulative spacing of the pickets is held to +- .125" over ten feet. That's better than some leadscrews over that distance and is determined by the precision of my layout of the holes I machine in the bottom railings that provide location of the pickets. The bender I made is able to produce "precision" bends with a repeatability of 1 part in 1000 or better. The parallelism of the pickets and the top and bottom rails is held to better than 1 in 1000 as well. That's equal to a precision of .001" per inch.

Doc Nickel
08-23-2007, 10:20 PM
Australia isn't the only one. Aside from countries such as China and the UAE British Telecom has already implemented ISP level filtering called "CleanFeed" that blocks some content. More will follow.

-And yet again, this affects us just how, again? I'm pretty sure that Australia is not part of Canada, and I'm quite positive it's not part of Alaska. And for the third time, your "concern" over whether or not Australia will or won't block this site comes at least five years too late, since I've already shown guns have been mentioned and discussed at length for that period, or longer.

And for the last time, it's all still irrelevant. Australia filtering certain sites does NOT mean that some guy in Australia- or the UK, or any other non-gun-friendly political subdivision- will get in any kind of trouble for viewing my post on shortening a gun barrel.

You know it's irrelevant, and yet you continue to harp on it, just as you previously continued to insist the "badly-designed flaw" on circular saws- that every current manufacturer uses- was the reason you chopped your own cord twice, and that your actually badly-designed roof safety system was in fact perfectly safe and extraordinarily well designed.

You know, continually insisting you're "right" in the face of clearly contrary data tends to be somewhat worse than admitting that hey, maybe you're wrong. One makes you look like nothing more than an obstinate jackass, the other shows you're both human and can actually see a situation from others' viewpoints.


Sounds like full-on ostrich mode to me. Your take on it only makes sense if you are happy with a nice cozy little world that only includes the USA with no troublesome intrusions of reality to deal with.

-Certainly. Forgive me for showing a legal mod that's legal in much of the world- including Canada, if the mod simply leaves one additional inch on the barrel- done in the United States and hosted on an American bulletin board.

You quite explicitly stated you din't care what the American OSHA institution would or wouldn't think of your roof-safety straps, so again, I'd say you only appear concerned with rules when they suit you.


Posting material in a public forum that serves to justify such attempts to control the net is irresponsible and gives ammunition to those that would restrict free speech.

-Oh sure. My posting how to chop a barrel down will lead to the Fall of Democaracy Worldwide. Sure thing. No, it wasn't pirated music CDs, cracked game ROMs, child pornography, Nigerian money scams, Viagra spam, pyramid schemes, DDOS attacks, spyware or pump-and-dump schemes that bring it all crashing down, it'll be some pictures of a short-barreled but otherwise perfectly-legal pistol.

Are you even reading to what you type?


This is particularly the case in this thread as it amounts to a set of instructions on how to make a short barreled weapon that is easy to conceal. Information such as this is high on the list these days of things that "shouldn't be allowed".

-Really. "Shouldn't be allowed" by whom? It's legal in the US. It's even legal in Canada, presuming you have the requisite paperwork. The firearm itself isn't legal in the UK or Australia, so the barrel length is utterly and wholly irrelevant.

As for "easy to conceal", yes, and what of it? Alaska- the state I'm in and the state the firearm is located in- requires no permit whatsoever to legally carry concealed. Neither does Vermont, and something like thirty-five other States allow concealed carry with one level or another of permit and restriction.

No, the gun is not legal in, say, New York City, but then again, your lawnmower/plow would not be legal (for emissions reasons) in the state of California, and your roof-harness system would not be legal in any state in the Union. (And probably not in Canada, either.)


I would also challenge you to provide a definition of "precision". It's a term that is 100% relative to what is being made. It has no absolute "value" and I may characterize my fabrication work as precision with as much right as my astronomical instruments.

-Granted. You'll also note I have, at least three times, pointed out that I didn't say you should stop posting your works, but rather that you should perhaps save just the "cream of the crop", so to speak, for this particular board, focusing on showing us machinework projects- since, after all, this is a precision machinist board.

And please don't insult my intelligence by saying you can't tell the difference between machine work and more conventional fabrication. That's no more than your intentional obfuscation of the issue in an effort to not be "proven wrong".

Yes, plenty of all of our projects involve nonprecision methods like chop saws, MIG welders, or even blacksmithing to one small extent or another. But in the end, this board is designed and intended for information relating to the use and application of machine tools- and you're not so stupid you don't know what a classically-defined machine tool is.


The parallelism of the pickets and the top and bottom rails is held to better than 1 in 1000 as well. That's equal to a precision of .001" per inch.

-Sure thing. But since it's still just "decorative ironwork", why don't you show it to people who do, you know, decorative ironwork? Like the guys at Anvilfire (http://www.anvilfire.com/), or over at I Forge Iron (http://www.iforgeiron.com/forum/)? If you insist it's machine-tool quality, why not post it to Practical Machinist (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/cgi-bin/ubbcgi/ultimatebb.cgi)? (You know, that machine-tool board that gets about twice the traffic this board does, and with a great deal less "off topic" fluff?) For that matter, why not show the general-fabrication guys over at Metal Illness (http://www.bbssystem.com/) (they can use the traffic) or even Metal Meet (http://www.metalmeet.com/forum/).

Even you have to admit much of your recent work fits far better into those latter two categories.

Doc.

wierdscience
08-23-2007, 11:53 PM
Nice work Doc,keep it up.

J Tiers
08-24-2007, 12:08 AM
You folks in Autralia etc will need to stop your subscriptions to MW and HSM, or get arrested, I guess.

In case you happen to be a "free-rider", and don't subscribe, the mags have had gunsmithing articles for years.

So squealing about the 'gun-related" content here is a bit silly.

I am aware of some of the thought control measures that some less-democratic countries have seen fit to put in place.

When Australia joins china in filtering the ACCESS to information which the government deems to be unsuitable, obviously there is a problem which cannot be solved here.

Limit "guns and pornography" today, political dissent tomorrow......... having your children and neighbors watching you for "disloyalty to the government" can't be far away.

Somewhere in the middle, it will be discovered that people with home shops "might build guns", and so the shops will be confiscated and the evil, potentially gun-building shop owners will be jailed for a long time. Lots of good video images of these enemies of the state being hauled away in chains.

Evan
08-24-2007, 12:59 AM
And for the last time, it's all still irrelevant. Australia filtering certain sites does NOT mean that some guy in Australia- or the UK, or any other non-gun-friendly political subdivision- will get in any kind of trouble for viewing my post on shortening a gun barrel.
The US is one of the few countries that doesn't make information on illegal devices illegal in itself. Most countries make the instructions illegal as well as the devices. If for some reason in one of these countries your computer came to be examined and such information was found in the browser cache it could be a serious problem.


You know, continually insisting you're "right" in the face of clearly contrary data tends to be somewhat worse than admitting that hey, maybe you're wrong. One makes you look like nothing more than an obstinate jackass, the other shows you're both human and can actually see a situation from others' viewpoints.
It is apparent that you do not understand how things work outside the USA. That is a common fault.


And for the third time, your "concern" over whether or not Australia will or won't block this site comes at least five years too late, since I've already shown guns have been mentioned and discussed at length for that period, or longer.
Australia wasn't contemplating such action five years ago.


You know it's irrelevant, and yet you continue to harp on it, just as you previously continued to insist the "badly-designed flaw" on circular saws- that every current manufacturer uses- was the reason you chopped your own cord twice, and that your actually badly-designed roof safety system was in fact perfectly safe and extraordinarily well designed.
Not relevant to this discussion.


-Certainly. Forgive me for showing a legal mod that's legal in much of the world- including Canada, if the mod simply leaves one additional inch on the barrel- done in the United States and hosted on an American bulletin board.
Your mod is NOT legal in most of the world.


-Oh sure. My posting how to chop a barrel down will lead to the Fall of Democaracy Worldwide. Sure thing. No, it wasn't pirated music CDs, cracked game ROMs, child pornography, Nigerian money scams, Viagra spam, pyramid schemes, DDOS attacks, spyware or pump-and-dump schemes that bring it all crashing down, it'll be some pictures of a short-barreled but otherwise perfectly-legal pistol.
Are you reading what YOU type? Perfectly legal except for being a felony or equivalent in most countries. That paragraph illustrates the logical fallacy of Argument by Distraction, Misleading Vividness and the classic Red Herring. Pretty talented of you to include at least three fallacies in one paragraph.


-Really. "Shouldn't be allowed" by whom? It's legal in the US. It's even legal in Canada, presuming you have the requisite paperwork.
There are plenty of people that think that information such as this "Shouldn't be allowed". That isn't my opinion but that isn't the issue. Some of those people are in positions of power and are able to make significant changes to laws and regulations.

It isn't legal in Canada, it is a prohibited weapon. I cannot obtain the requisite paperwork and neither can anybody else unless they are a grandfathered gunsmith/collector. That describes only a very few people.


You quite explicitly stated you din't care what the American OSHA institution would or wouldn't think of your roof-safety straps, so again, I'd say you only appear concerned with rules when they suit you.

Actually, I never said that. Jerry did. Besides, those aren't the rules here in Canada. And, it's still irrelevant to this discussion. Plus, it is another invalid arguing technique, in this case a form of ad hominem attack.

Most of your "points" are based on incorrect assumptions, wrong information, incorrect attribution twice now and/or ignorance of the facts. The fact that some of the people here agree with you shows that you aren't the only one holding such misinformed views. That is a shame and you would do well to inform yourself about what is happening outside the USA. It really does matter whether you think so or not.

Bguns
08-24-2007, 01:47 AM
As a licensed Federal Firearms Dealer/Gunsmith, I find Docs post to be interesting and Machining related. History has shown that firearms have brought many useful tools and concepts, that spread to other manufacturing industries....
If A Canadian citizen has a problem with an American hosted web site...STAY OFF OF IT... I had a German Hunting Licence and was able to buy firearms in Germany while stationed there, and the gun laws there were fairly reasonable.
Australian gun laws mean diddly squat in the US and ALWAYS WILL....
Same for Canadian laws....Unless I was to be traveling through.. which I doubt I will ever do again.... My Concealed Carry Permit would surely invite a strip search/LOOOONG DELAY at border...
I seem to remember an incident where Canadian boats were blockading a US ferry..http://www.plu.edu/scene/issue/1998/spring/canada5.html
Seems the Canadians have a history of ignoring what they don't want to hear and breaking International law.... Even the multi million Canadian dollar Gun registration system has turned into mess. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canadian_gun_registry
In regards to illegal import of firearms into Canada...I also seem to remember that Islamic Terrorists and their exotic items/Knowledge, preferred import route into the US was through CANADA...

Doc Nickel
08-24-2007, 02:56 AM
The US is one of the few countries that doesn't make information on illegal devices illegal in itself. Most countries make the instructions illegal as well as the devices. If for some reason in one of these countries your computer came to be examined and such information was found in the browser cache it could be a serious problem.

-Good lord... Okay, even taking this at face value, the person in question would have to take the step of saving the images to their hard drive, else they'd be deleted from the cached memory within a relatively short period of time. (For some people, hours, for others, a few days.)

And even in Australia and the UK, no court would even consider charges against someone with pictures of guns in their cached memory. (Assuming that was their only so-called "crime"; and if it wasn't- say they were downloading bomb plans and the like- then the gun photos would be utterly and wholly irrelevant. Again.)

AGAIN, Evan, you know this. Are you intentionally being this obtuse?


It is apparent that you do not understand how things work outside the USA. That is a common fault.

-And you're attempting to ascribe what-ifs, maybes, and could-happens of a vaguely and extremely-questionably-defined scenario where somebody might possibly get in trouble, maybe, if a certain set of unlikely conditions all took place.

Even in Australia and the UK, no court is going to charge a person with having photos of illegal objects in their browser cache- with the probable exception of child pornography.

I know that for a fact, your attempts to claim otherwise notwithstanding.


Australia wasn't contemplating such action five years ago.

-Again, so? The damage, so to speak, has already been done. This site already had references to guns and other weapons better than five years before I posted anything gun-related. If it's going to be filtered from Australian ISPs, a situation I still boggle at how you manage to find relevant or even associated with my postings, then nothing you or I could post now, would have the least effect on such a filtering.

You're reaching, Evan, and no twisting of obscure what-ifs and could-bes can hide that.



Not relevant to this discussion.

-But your worry that this site might, just maybe, be filtered from having a few Australian members read it due to my recent posting of a gun-related topic, on a board that's seen gun-related topics posted for better than five years, is?

This conversation is getting stranger and more convoluted by the sentence. All because I suggested that maybe we have some machining-related posts on a machining-related board.

Go figure.


Your mod is NOT legal in most of the world.

-The gun itself, modded or no, is not legal in the UK or Australia, and therefore, the mod is irrelevant. If someone had such a gun in order to mod it, whether or not he was planning to saw the barrel off would be of absolutely and utterly no consequence.

The mod IS legal, under certain circumstances, in Canada.

But again, this is relevant again, how? Simply posting photos of something legal that may or may not be legal in other juristictions is in no way illegal, immoral or even fattening. There's dozens of websites devoted to non-EPA-approved car mods, the majority of which are illegal to do in California, New York and Chicago. But California isn't going to shut the site down or try to prosecute somebody from, say, Kansas, that posted such mods. They may try going after somebody that tries the mod in an area where it isn't allowed, but no one is going to get arrested for looking at such mods.

And for the fourth time, you know all this. I have no idea why you're trying to twist and wrestle the conversation into such obscure and irrelevant directions, but hey, I'll be happy to keep correcting you as long as it's needed. :D


Are you reading what YOU type? Perfectly legal except for being a felony or equivalent in most countries.

-Doing may well be illegal. Looking is in no way illegal, with the possible exception of some extraordinarily-repressive areas like China... but then, owning the gun in China is itself illegal, so again, looking at pictures of how to mod the barrel is utterly and wholly irrelevant.


That paragraph illustrates the logical fallacy of Argument by Distraction, Misleading Vividness and the classic Red Herring. Pretty talented of you to include at least three fallacies in one paragraph.

-"Oh Kettle, how Black thou Art!"

Let's see; you're trying to accuse me of a potentially-illegal activity (distraction) by bringing up possible actions by a Australian ISPs (more distraction) that might or might not charge some nameless Australian viewer with looking at them (misleading vividness) and pointing out the mod itself is illegal in places where simply owning the gun is illegal (the red herring.) You've also got accusations of totalitarianism (via the "Patriot Act"- that's more misleading vividness.)

Besides the fact that this entire conversation is a red herring, since you know the mod was perfectly legal to a perfectly legal firearm, owned legally and displayed legally, but because you are mad at me, personally, for having the temerity to ask that you reduce the number of non-machining-related stuff you post- how dare I!- you've engaged your Ego and now must dredge up increasingly-nonsensical arguments to keep from being proven wrong.


There are plenty of people that think that information such as this "Shouldn't be allowed".

-Fortunately the United States, where the gun is, the mod was performed, the photos are hosted and the site itself is located, don't agree with those people, and thus allow it. What somebody else outside our borders might or might not do, is largely irrelevant as far as this board and it's postings go. Any filtration or legality of imagery is not and cannot be our concern.


It isn't legal in Canada, it is a prohibited weapon. I cannot obtain the requisite paperwork and neither can anybody else unless they are a grandfathered gunsmith/collector. That describes only a very few people.

-That's great. And so how does that affect either one of us? The gun isn't in Canada, I'm not in Canada, the photos aren't hosted in Canada, and Canadian authorities aren't going to arrest or even investigate someone who has photos of it even saved to their hard drive, let alone in their temporary browser cache.

So where's the problem?


Actually, I never said that. Jerry did. Besides, those aren't the rules here in Canada.

-Precisely. Just as Canadian (and English, and Australian, and Chinese) rules aren't relevant here in the US. Glad we finally agree on something.


And, it's still irrelevant to this discussion. Plus, it is another invalid arguing technique, in this case a form of ad hominem attack.

-Sure. Like saying I potentially commited a felony because some guy in Australia might have looked at the pictures.


Most of your "points" are based on incorrect assumptions, wrong information, incorrect attribution twice now and/or ignorance of the facts.

-And every one of your points are based on what-ifs, maybes, might-happens and could-bes. Looking at my photos might be illegal... in places where the gun itself is illegal. Cutting down the barrel could be illegal, but only in places where the gun is, itself, again, illegal. Somebody in an oppressive place like China might get into trouble for looking at my photos.... but then, they'll also get into trouble for viewing CNN.com, anything to do with Tibet's bid for independence, anything that has to do with Taiwan being an independent entity and not a part of mainland China, and anything even remotely derogatory toward China's ruling party.

Meaning your entire premise is wholly irrelevant.


The fact that some of the people here agree with you shows that you aren't the only one holding such misinformed views. That is a shame and you would do well to inform yourself about what is happening outside the USA. It really does matter whether you think so or not.

-I know quite a bit more than you might think, just as I'm quite sure you know much more than is evident by this sort of nonsensical and eventually futile argument.

Perhaps I should be direct- please explain to me why my posting these photos is in any way, illegal, immoral or fattening. You've suggested that Australia will filter the site. Okay, so? If that's the case, the site was ripe for filtering years before either one of us joined. You've pointed out the mod is illegal in Canada. Okay, so? I'm not in Canada, the gun isn't in Canada nor is it destined for Canada. Somebody in Canada (or England, or Australia) might get in trouble for looking at the photos? First, that's horsesh*t and you know it, and second, even if that were true, so? There's thousands of photos of firearms on the 'net, some of them even illegal (or at least heavily restricted) to own even here in the US.

So what's left, besides the fact you got your undies in a wad because I asked to to tone down the non-machining posts?

Doc.

aostling
08-24-2007, 02:59 AM
On the .357 earlier, I milled an aluminum "bridge" that slid over the front sight

Doc.

Doc,

I've been dying to ask, (but hesitated, not wanting to get in the sights of your .357, actually or figuratively), two questions:

1. Why do they call you Doc? For three months in 1982 I was a straw boss in Barrow, trying to control a gang of drug-snorting pipefitters. I failed. One of the crew was a Seattle chiropractor, on the lam. You're not that kind of a doctor, are you?

2. Are you related to the mayor of Seattle? He has your last name, and it's not unlikely for there to be a Seattle-Alaska connection. I'm a Seattle kid, but my mother was born in Sitka.

Doc Nickel
08-24-2007, 03:34 AM
1. Why do they call you Doc?

-Nope, I'm not that kind of doctor. :D I don't even play one on TV.

It's simply an internet nick, that got it's start due to the fact I was the only one of our crew (of paintball players) that bothered to bring any tools to the field- and by extension, I was the one that had to fix them all.

One fellow, one day lost to history- this was about 1994, about a year before I got my first net-enabled PC- had several problems with his gun during the day, and eventually started cracking jokes about it; "Code blue! We need a crash cart to the back bunker!" and so forth. One of the times I was patching it up yet again, he said "will he live, Doc?"

The reply was something like "yes, but he'll never pay the piano again", which everyone got a good chuckle out of. (You had to be there.) The nick got brought up again a few times in similar circumstances, and when I got online, I simply used it for a nick on some of the early web boards, to preserve some shred of privacy.

After a few years of casual use, I started doing business customizing paintball gear over the 'net, and since I was already somewhat known by that name, I stuck with it.


2. Are you related to the mayor of Seattle?

-Nope. Don't know anyone at all in Seattle. The entirety of my extended family is either here in Alaska or some of my more distant aunts and uncles are back in the upper midwest.

Doc.

John Stevenson
08-24-2007, 06:05 AM
Well I have read the whole thread and being UK based would like to add a few bits.
First off I thought Doc's post was excellent, it was all about machining, what on is irrelevant, more on this later.
OK so in the UK we can't own a gun such as this so modifying it doesn't come into the issue even if I wanted to, something Evan was trying to make an issue of.

Only yesterday I did a job very similar to what Doc did but not as complex, not sure what it was but something gun related and to do with insulation filling and it was in alloy so i know it wasn't firearm related.

As regards having images of guns on the hard drive then this is pure $hite as only certain guns are banned here so it would be impossible to enforce. I still own a black powder gun that requires no license or anything and it's legal. In fact a recent case in court proved that in some cases banned weapons can still be owned and slip thru a loophole. The Google Child will probably find the reference.

Doc's responses and replies to my mind have been in order, factual and 100 % relevant, if this thread was a debate with a vote on the outcome then Doc's presentation would win hands down.

.

Evan
08-24-2007, 08:25 AM
And even in Australia and the UK, no court would even consider charges against someone with pictures of guns in their cached memory. (Assuming that was their only so-called "crime"; and if it wasn't- say they were downloading bomb plans and the like- then the gun photos would be utterly and wholly irrelevant. Again.)

AGAIN, Evan, you know this. Are you intentionally being this obtuse?

Repeatedly alleging that I know something doesn't make it true no matter how many times you say it.

You also know that if your computer is subjected to a forensic investigation all illegal information will be gathered and used as evidence against you. US courts have ruled that images in a browser cache constitute intentionally saved images. The situation is even less favorable in other countries including the UK.

Saying something such as "Assuming that was their only so-called "crime"; and if it wasn't- say they were downloading bomb plans and the like- then the gun photos would be utterly and wholly irrelevant. Again." is itself irrelevant. We aren't discussing bomb plans. That is yet another Red Herring. If you are going to try and make a point stick to the topic.


-And you're attempting to ascribe what-ifs, maybes, and could-happens of a vaguely and extremely-questionably-defined scenario where somebody might possibly get in trouble, maybe, if a certain set of unlikely conditions all took place.
Unlikely my ass. Your computer is the first place investigators will look for anything illegal when they are investigating you in any country. Illegal is illegal and if you are unfortunate enough to live someplace where plans to modify a handgun into a "terrorist weapon" are illegal then you are in trouble. What's so hard to understand about that? Also, since when does the likelyhood of something being found or lack of it justify breaking the law?


This conversation is getting stranger and more convoluted by the sentence. All because I suggested that maybe we have some machining-related posts on a machining-related board.

Go figure.
Yeah, go figure out why you haven't objected to the very numerous posts that have no relevance to metal work or machining, to which you have posted numerous times, too many to enumerate here. Yet you object to my post on metalworking which is apparently of interest to at least some BBS members.

Go figure.



The mod IS legal, under certain circumstances, in Canada.

No, it isn't. It's a prohibited and therefore illegal weapon. Some people, a very few, are licensed to possess illegal weapons. That doesn't make it legal. This isn't a matter of semantics. The Criminal Code of Canada defines such a short barreled weapon as a prohibited weapon and sets out strict penalties for possession of such devices. In fact the recently passed bill C-10 sets out a mandatory three year prison sentence for possession of a prohibited weapon.


This post is a primer on how to turn a legal restricted weapon into a prohibited weapon. The focus here is turning to precisely this sort of information.

From a news story a few days ago in Vancouver:



Criminals who have trouble getting their hands on guns are now turning to the Internet for help, the RCMP noted. They are buying firearm parts and building their own weapons with instructions available online.
http://www.canada.com/vancouversun/news/story.html?id=3425de22-3656-4bdf-8ce8-f79bdd064c11

This post can actually be considered illegal under several provisions of Canadian law as well as Australian and UK law. Information whose only purpose is to facilitate the commission of an offense is illegal. Counseling an illegal act is illegal in many countries.



And for the fourth time, you know all this. I have no idea why you're trying to twist and wrestle the conversation into such obscure and irrelevant directions, but hey, I'll be happy to keep correcting you as long as it's needed.
In order to correct you must be correct. Not so far.


Besides the fact that this entire conversation is a red herring, since you know the mod was perfectly legal to a perfectly legal firearm, owned legally and displayed legally, but because you are mad at me, personally, for having the temerity to ask that you reduce the number of non-machining-related stuff you post- how dare I!- you've engaged your Ego and now must dredge up increasingly-nonsensical arguments to keep from being proven wrong.

And how dare I question this post, right?
It isn't legal here. You refuse to acknowledge the increasingly restrictive environment that has come about since the 9/11 attack and the much increased focus on weapons and how they may be obtained and used for what are purported to be "terrorist" activities. The paranoia level has ratcheted up constantly in the last few years and subjects that wouldn't raise an eyebrow a few years ago are now under scrutiny. Modifying weapons to make them easy to conceal is very high on the list.

I maintain that it is irresponsible to post this sort of information even if completely legal in the US. This is an international forum and is available worldwide which is the intent of Village Press.

Alguy
08-24-2007, 08:30 AM
Nicely done Doc. and you did nothing wrong posting it! On my list of things to before i croak,, is to go to alaska and when I head out to the wilds of alaska i will be packin somethin like that. :D

andy_b
08-24-2007, 08:37 AM
It was mine also, .380 FA suppressed 32 rounds sounded like a quiet sewing machine, then the brass hit the gravel, Ching-a- ling ching ching. Sweet soundless surprise

9mm. i recently put a conversion on it that allows the use of cheap 72-round drum mags. if you think 32 rounds seems like a lot, you need to hold the trigger in on 72 rounds. six seconds never seemed so long. :)

andy b.

Doc Nickel
08-24-2007, 09:42 AM
Repeatedly alleging that I know something doesn't make it true no matter how many times you say it.

-And claiming something is illegal repeatedly doesn't make it so.


You also know that if your computer is subjected to a forensic investigation all illegal information will be gathered and used as evidence against you.

-And having a photograph of an illegal gun is NOT ILLEGAL IN AND OF ITSELF. You keep claiming that somebody, somewhere, might get in trouble for it, but apart from vague allegations of Australian filters, have provided no proof whatsoever.


US courts have ruled that images in a browser cache constitute intentionally saved images.

-Cite? That one I'm going to need proof of.


That is yet another Red Herring. If you are going to try and make a point stick to the topic.

-This entire conversation is a red herring. You're claiming that posting a photo of a gun is somehow illegal, but again, other than suggesting that Australia might filter sites that show guns, and pointing out that some places declare the gun itself illegal to posses, you've shown no evidence, no proof.

So, right here- show me proof, an official citation of some form, that someone, somewhere, might get into legal trouble for having a photo of a firearm in their hard drive. And that the photo itself was the illegal item- not that the gun image was found during an investigation into other crimes (tax fraud, child porn, etc.)


Unlikely my ass. Your computer is the first place investigators will look for anything illegal when they are investigating you in any country.

-Certainly. And the issue at hand is THAT THE PHOTO OF THE GUN IS NOT ILLEGAL! Show me proof that a photo of a firearm is illegal to possess. Even in China, or the UK, or Australia, or Norway, or anywhere.


Illegal is illegal and if you are unfortunate enough to live someplace where plans to modify a handgun into a "terrorist weapon" are illegal then you are in trouble.

-Red herring. Cutting a handgun barrel down does not make it a "terrorist weapon", and even if it did, having photos of the weapon IS NOT ILLEGAL.


What's so hard to understand about that?

-Because you keep claiming it's illegal, even felonious, and it's not? Because you keep claiming that somebody could get into trouble because I posted those photos, and that's not true? Because having copies of the photos is not in any way illegal?


Yeah, go figure out why you haven't objected to the very numerous posts that have no relevance to metal work or machining, to which you have posted numerous times, too many to enumerate here.

-Red herring again. The off-topic posts were at a relatively low level, and I had no issues with them. But recently, you've been quite productive, as I understand it due to some new medications, and I'm happy for you. You're getting a lot done, and your work shows craftsmanship.

But really, apart from your rod bender and the picket twister, much of what you have showed us has little or nothing to do with machining. Your roof-safety system was completely off topic, regardless of it's safety or design quality. The tractor wasn't much better, again being predominantly a welding and fab-shop project, involving little machining, and then the trailer was, as the saying goes, the last straw.

Thus, I posted that maybe we don't really need to see each and every little project. Again, I didn't say stop, I didn't say "you idiot, what does that have to do with machine work", I didn't say "Neal, ban this jerk!"

You, as your past history shows, can take no criticism whatsoever, and any backtalk is vigorously and loudly shouted down, so perhaps I should have expected the response.


Yet you object to my post on metalworking which is apparently of interest to at least some BBS members.

-Yessir. I objected to fab-shop work posted in a machine-shop board, I'm sure it is of interest to other readers, and as I have stated before, it's even in interest to me. My suggestion might not have been the most pleasantly-worded, but I also didn't think you needed to be kowtowed to like a jealous straw boss.


No, it isn't. It's a prohibited and therefore illegal weapon.

-Okay, fine. Granted. I'm sure you knowmore about Canadian gun laws than I do.

BUT THE GUN IS NOT LOCATED IN CANADA, IS NOT DESTINED TO BE DELIVERED TO CANADA, IS NOT OWNED BY A CANADIAN, WAS NOT MODIFIED BY A CANADIAN, THE PHOTOS ARE NOT HOSTED ON A CANADIAN SERVER, THE SITE THEY WERE POSTED TO IS NOT CANADIAN-OWNED, AND NO CANADIAN AUTHORITIES WILL CHARGE A PERSON, LET ALONE ARREST THEM, FOR HAVING A COPY OF THE PHOTO ON THEIR HARD DRIVE.

So please tell me where the problem is. Where's the illegal aspect you're so darn worried about?

(Cont'd next post)

Doc Nickel
08-24-2007, 09:44 AM
Some people, a very few, are licensed to possess illegal weapons.

-Being licensed to own them predicates their being illegal, but that's just semantics.


The Criminal Code of Canada defines such a short barreled weapon as a prohibited weapon and sets out strict penalties for possession of such devices. In fact the recently passed bill C-10 sets out a mandatory three year prison sentence for possession of a prohibited weapon.

-Great. Goodie for Canada, that non-totalitarian country that doesn't let it's subjects- not citizens- own handguns.

Now, again, for the umpty-leventh time, tell me how this is any kind of a problem at all, since the gun itself is nowhere near Canada, and Canadian authorities are not going to waste a minutes' time charging someone for having a photo of it on their hard drive.


This post is a primer on how to turn a legal restricted weapon into a prohibited weapon. The focus here is turning to precisely this sort of information.

-Sure. Since the process is oh so much more complex than just "take a hacksaw to it".

Again, show me the Law, chapter and verse, that says it's illegal to have a photo of a short-barreled weapon on your hard drive. Yes, I know there are or will be laws concerning the making of explosives, or the conversion of a semi-auto into a full-auto, or what have you. Those things aren't at issue here. I want you to show me where any country's laws prevents it's citizen from having a photo of a banned or illegal weapon on his or her hard drive.

If not, then stick a cork in it, would ya?


From a news story a few days ago in Vancouver:

-Gosh, people finding out how to do illegal stuff through the intertubes. Stop the presses.

Okay, one more time, for those of you watching at home: Please tell me where the law says it is illegal to have a photo of a banned or illegal handgun on your hard drive. For that matter, tell me where the law says it's illegal to possess information on how to saw the barrel off.

And again, yes, I'm quite sure there's proscriptions against instructions on other modifications like full-auto conversions, but again, that's not the issue here. I didn't post those kinds of instructions, nor would I even if I knew how.

Your issue with me is over a short-barreled handgun. It's now up to you to prove to me that posting these photos wasin any way illegal.

Then, even if you do find some obscure law, please indicate how that presumably-Canadian law is supposed to affect me, a US citizen.


This post can actually be considered illegal under several provisions of Canadian law as well as Australian and UK law.

-Great. Prove it. Chapter and verse, and don't quote it here, link me to the original document, please. It's not that I don't trust you, but... well, no, I don't trust you. I'm sure you understand.


Information whose only purpose is to facilitate the commission of an offense is illegal. Counseling an illegal act is illegal in many countries.

-Again, great. Now prove it, chapter and verse.

And once you've proved it, if you can, then explain to me just exactly how that law affects me, the gun, the gun's owner, the gun mod or the existience and posting of the gun photos, here in the United States.


And how dare I question this post, right?

-It's not a "how dare I?" situation, it's more like a "why in hell is he?!?" situation. But please, do carry on, it's quite stimulating.


It isn't legal here.

-Great. It's not there, and it's not illegal to have photos of it there. So where's the problem?


You refuse to acknowledge the increasingly restrictive environment that has come about since the 9/11 attack and the much increased focus on weapons and how they may be obtained and used for what are purported to be "terrorist" activities.

-No, I refuse to accept your strained and convoluted twisting of how you're trying to interpret some laws- that don't apply to me anyway- simply to make some kind of "I'm right, you're wrong" point.

9-11, and the Patriot Act notwithstanding, it's still not illegal to post these photos, the mod itself is not illegal in the state it was performed in, and the gun is not illegal to possess- or even carry concealed- in the state it's owned in, either pre- or post-modification.

So yet again, where's the problem?


The paranoia level has ratcheted up constantly in the last few years and subjects that wouldn't raise an eyebrow a few years ago are now under scrutiny. Modifying weapons to make them easy to conceal is very high on the list.

-I await my call from Homeland Security. Here in the US, the mod is not illegal to perform, and the resultant barrel length is not illegal, and the ownership of the firearm itself is not illegal. I can't really see the FBI or DHS spending a lot of time on this case.


I maintain that it is irresponsible to post this sort of information even if completely legal in the US.

-Of course you do. Irresponsible, however, is not illegal, and for that matter, it's irresponsibility is purely your opinion. You know, that thing you gaave me some grief over in relation to my opinion of your non-machining posts, over in your cart thread.

And responsible or irresponsible, it's still very interesting that a bare nine months ago, the subject didn't even pop up, despite your extensive participation a lengthy dissertation on Canadian fiream law in a thread showing a near-identical barrel reduction project.


This is an international forum and is available worldwide which is the intent of Village Press.

-Yessir. And since it's such an issue with you, please show me any law, in any country, that makes it illegal to posess a photo of a firearm that is otherwise banned or illegal in that country, on one's hard drive.

Doc.

J Tiers
08-24-2007, 10:27 AM
Besides, those aren't the rules here in Canada.

Thank you for bolstering your "opponent's" point!

YOUR rules are not the rules here........... so if you don't care about US laws, we need not care about those in foreign countries.

The attempt to pass a law in some small country and make it apply worldwide is not yet valid.



And, it's still irrelevant to this discussion. Plus, it is another invalid arguing technique, in this case a form of ad hominem attack.

Pointing out an inconsistency and "very flexible attitude" to the very type of issue being discussed is relevant at this level of debate, insofar as it means that your various statements may cancel out and be irrelevant.

It could be relevant in court, as regards the credibility of your testimony. The fact that in the artificial "debate" environment it might not be valid is simply not even a consideration here.

You seem to believe that YOU can make the rules, forcing others to adhere to them. While I do respect you, and if we met I would likely find you an interesting friend, I must remind you that in fact, you DO NOT make the rules on this forum, or in the US.

The "debate" rules are framed by consensus here, and we apparently have a consensus that formal debate is not "on point".

Evan
08-24-2007, 11:46 AM
Doc,

I'm not going to carry this on any further as you don't know how to debate a point without resorting to invalid debating techniques.

Statements such as this are an example.



-Great. Goodie for Canada, that non-totalitarian country that doesn't let it's subjects- not citizens- own handguns.


You know that isn't true so why say it?
I can wander down to the local gun store with my Firearms Accquisition Certificate which is available to any adult without a criminal record and buy any legal handgun such as yours without the barrel cut down.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/gunstore.jpg

As for the cite you asked for re browser cache images:

July 21, 2004
State of Wisconsin,
Plaintiff-Respondent,
v.
Jack P. Lindgren,
Defendant-Appellant.

and

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff - Appellee,
v.
JEFFREY TUCKER,
Defendant - Appellant.


As for the offense of counseling to commit a crime it's known as Vicarious Liability for an offense and is in section 22 of the Canadian Criminal Code.


Criminal Code
PART I
Parties to Offences

Person counselling offence


22. (1) Where a person counsels another person to be a party to an offence and that other person is afterwards a party to that offence, the person who counselled is a party to that offence, notwithstanding that the offence was committed in a way different from that which was counselled.

Idem


(2) Every one who counsels another person to be a party to an offence is a party to every offence that the other commits in consequence of the counselling that the person who counselled knew or ought to have known was likely to be committed in consequence of the counselling.

(my emphasis)

Seastar
08-24-2007, 12:25 PM
I suddenly realized that EVAN is right, as usual.
I'm really sorry I started this.
Now can we stop?
Please!

platypus2020
08-24-2007, 01:29 PM
Evan,

I'm no offended by Doc postings, I thought that the machine work was very interesting, yes before you ask, I'm a gun owner, I haven't shot a gun in probably 8-10 years. Do I have any desire to modify my guns, NO, but I have the right to if I want to within US and New York State legal limits, I know how to cut down a shot gun, does that make me a criminal, NO.

I'm not offended by your postings, I thought your shaper video was brilliant, and there no doubt that your very talented man, but I also believe your dump cart project was mundane, on par with a jr-high school metal shop project. I believe your posting of an air compressor tank, made from a junk water tank is reckless at best, there is no way except professional testing to ensure that tank was safe. It appears you got a good one, time will tell, but your posting leads people to believe they can do the same thing, what if they aren't as lucky as you and get a bad tank? I believe more people are at risk from that than from Doc's gun modification.

What does offend me is your self appointed position of moral compass to the forum, who appears to believe his every utterance is on par with Moses delivering the Ten Commandment on Mt Sinai, do use all a favor and get off your high horse.

Jack

Your Old Dog
08-24-2007, 01:59 PM
Can we please have some perspective ? :D