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J Tiers
08-27-2007, 11:45 PM
With the global warming issue hot at the moment, apparently a "new" source of enormous quantities of CO2 has been identified.

Chinese coal mine fires.

While coal mine fires exist elsewhere, including the US, some of the chinese ones are huge. The total consumption of the chinese fires is unknown, but has been estimated at up to 200 million tons per year. That would correspond to about 350 million tons of CO2, an emission that is resulting from a pure waste, not from any productive use.

I have seen statements by reputable folks who suggest that putting them out is much more directly useful in combating global warming than full implementation of Kyoto, or all the "carbon credit systems" etc that have so far been proposed. The emissions may be comparable to a large proportion of the gasoline use in the US or europe, for instance.

I was totally unaware of this matter until I saw a small article on it, and checked it out elsewhere.

aostling
08-27-2007, 11:53 PM
Time to call out the hellfighters.
http://www.hellfighter.us/

dp
08-28-2007, 12:11 AM
After those are put out, go to work on this:
http://www.fs.fed.us/gpnf/volcanocams/msh/static-highdef.php

Then this:
http://www.offroaders.com/album/centralia/centralia.htm

And this is a problem:
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~gwk/research/nyos.html

And then the weirdest of all:
http://www.oceanexplorer.noaa.gov/explorations/02mexico/background/brinepool/brinepool.html

Every where you look there's methane or CO2. Damned SUV's :)

Mike W
08-28-2007, 12:14 AM
I buy 50 pounds of CO-2 at a time for welding use.

aostling
08-28-2007, 12:31 AM
Why can't coal mine fires be stopped by sealing off the mine, starving the fire by cutting off the air supply. There must be a simple reason why this doesn't work, but I don't see it.

chief
08-28-2007, 12:42 AM
and worship at the temple of algore. CO2 the deadly killer of all life, buy your carbon credits now and recieve a free steak knife set.
Mine fires have been burning in PA. for almost 100 years most are too deep to put out.
This nothing more than alarmist propaganda, the global warming scam is about making buck not saving the planet.Please spare me any righteous indignation unless you are walking to work,foraging roots and berries and using a treadle lathe.

Doc Nickel
08-28-2007, 01:13 AM
Why can't coal mine fires be stopped by sealing off the mine, starving the fire by cutting off the air supply. There must be a simple reason why this doesn't work, but I don't see it.

-There's enough oxygen available in the ore and/or rock itself, that the coal can burn even completely smothered. That's why there's still sixty and hundred-year-old coal fires burning underground in Pennsylvania.

I'm not sure there is a way to extinguish such underground fires. You can't just pump in water, as it flashes to steam, the heat braks it down,and the oxygen and hydrogen add to the flame, just like trying to put magnesum out with water.

There have been some experiments with things like polymer foams and the like, but then the problem is size- some of the smaller Pennsylvania fires cover whole square miles, or are at least spread out enough that there's no way you could attack each "hot spot" simultaneously, and not have one reignite the others.

Doc.

Doc Nickel
08-28-2007, 01:17 AM
Please spare me any righteous indignation unless you are walking to work,foraging roots and berries and using a treadle lathe.

-You had me up 'til the treadle.

I walk to work (shop's about fifty feet that way) I enjoy the occasional root beer, and we just picked two gallons of raspberries across the street.

Not about to cut another 65 304 stainless parts by using a treadle lathe though. Al's just gonna have to shut up for an extra five minutes to compensate for my emissions. :)

Doc.

Rich Carlstedt
08-28-2007, 01:21 AM
I just read a statement by a GW enthusiast, about China and carbon credits, and how US production would not be curtailed because it involved additional CO2 generation..and she had the Gonads to say this.."Well lets say a Chinese company is making 10 million pounds of CO2 a year and does not have the money to modernise.. a US company could pay for the improvements in the Chinese factory, lets say a 20 % reduction in CO2 generation, and that would give the US company 2 million pounds of the needed Carbon offsets to increase their production."

And these people vote !
Not only will the Chinese take away our jobs and production, She expects us to modernise their factories !.
Worse yet.. where is the reduction of Carbon occuring in this transaction?
HAHA you guessed it..none..except from your SUV of course.
I wish there was a way to extract Carbon from their gene pool !.
Rich

dp
08-28-2007, 01:49 AM
I don't think there's much CO2 generation caused from flipping burgers and that's pretty much all that is going to be left if we keep going like we are. We will be carbon negative before the next election cycle is over.

Oldguy
08-28-2007, 07:20 AM
"Global warming enthusiast". I like that - brought to mind a high school cheerleader image with shouts of "Go, Go Global Warming". Maybe I could sell that idea to the Sierra Club?

And they could push to ban all soft drinks. We all know that they are created with tanks of CO2.

I wonder how many "carbon offsets" allgore has to buy when he flies in a chartered jet to give a speech and tell us how "we" should do more to save the planet from global warming?

Glenn

aboard_epsilon
08-28-2007, 08:36 AM
Why can't coal mine fires be stopped by sealing off the mine, starving the fire by cutting off the air supply. There must be a simple reason why this doesn't work, but I don't see it.

This is because of faults in the ground ...
all the workings are on top of each other and at different levels ..


when the coal is worked out ...the empty void collapses and there is often a huge cathedral like cavern over the top of the collapse...can be 50 feet or more...and very possible for all levels of workings to combine into one full of rubble.
in uk coal mines, it would sometimes take months to seal off the areas effected ...
we had to drill holes hundreds of feet long from different seems towards leaks and pump poziment into possible sources of leaks of air ...round the clock job that was classed as an emergency...still took months and thousands of hours and $$$$$$

fires are usually started by spontaneous combustion (think compost heap)........and once going, suck in air like a vacuum cleaner.

btw ...they were never refered to as fires ...they were called heatings

bet the Chinese would just leave it ...or have organised there workings so its impossible to seal it ... and only possible by sealing off the whole mine.
..even then it may take a couple of years to go out .

all the best.mark

madman
08-28-2007, 09:59 AM
Wouldnt drilled holes supply the fires with much needed oxygen to keep burning?? If the air inlets were plugged would nt the fires go out?? HM just wondering

Carld
08-28-2007, 10:10 AM
The typical tree hugger ecologist doesn't have the common sense or ability to see reality. They are unreasonable in their demands for the most part. For her to say the USA should pay to clean up China don't surprise me. Look at the wildfires the tree huggers have caused by refusing to allow underbrush clean up.

So now they are going to jump on the underground fires in coal mines that have been a problem since coal mining started.

Everyone would be better off to enjoy the time remaining untill the Earth recycles it's self and purges it's self of all life and starts over. No one can change the natural cycles of the Earth.

Evan
08-28-2007, 10:17 AM
Although the causes may be debateable global warming is no longer in doubt. A few days ago I snapped some pics on my way to town. We have had such warm winters the last 15 or so years that the pine bark beetles haven't been killed off during the winter. We didn't have many pines around the immediate area, it's mostly Douglas Fir. The ten percent or so pine we did have is all dead now, even most of the immature ones. This is highly unusual as the bark beetles don't like the small trees. This is what it looks like along the road.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/gw1.jpg

I had to cut down the 30 or 40 pines on my property as they were all killed as well. More unusual is the sudden death of a large percentage of the common western junipers, some of which are hundreds of years old. There were many patches around here but in the last two years about 90 percent of them suddenly died.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/gw2.jpg

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/gw3.jpg

Nobody, including a friend who is a registered professional forester, can tell me for sure what has killed them. It's a mystery but it must have something to do with the climate in some way. My friend suggested it might be due to uncommonly high survival rates for meadow voles that nest in the junipers and chew the bark. This doesn't usually kill them but there has been a huge explosion in the vole population in the last couple of years. It isn't cold enough in winter.

J Tiers
08-28-2007, 10:20 AM
So now they are going to jump on the underground fires in coal mines that have been a problem since coal mining started.


I think you missed the point.............. The coal fires in china are MUCH BIGGER than those elsewhere, according to what appear to be credible reports. Similar to the carbon use in a LOT of gasoline (which is, after all not all carbon, but coal basically is all carbon)

If there is a source of CO2 of similar size as the gasoline use in the US or europe.
AND CO2 is a problem.

And that source results from a COMPLETE WASTE, a non-productive burning of coal.

AND instead of putting out the fires (which IS possible) the treehuggers instead want everyone in the US to freeze in the dark in mud huts......

Well, then there is a problem.

The smartest thing for tree-huggers to do would be to stop the potentially harmful waste of 200 million tons of coal per year.

Oh, yeah, and ease up a bit on demanding the destruction of western society......

dp
08-28-2007, 10:43 AM
And that source results from a COMPLETE WASTE, a non-productive burning of coal.


It is wasted because nobody has opted to take advantage of this excellent geothermal energy source. They need to hire these guys:
http://www.punageothermalventure.com/

Your Old Dog
08-28-2007, 10:45 AM
I deeply believe in Global Warming. I also deeply believe in Global Cooling. And I believe if the planet stops doing both we will be come stagnat. That means no weather systems to nurture the planet. What temperature do we want the planet to be?

Is the human spieces no longer able to adapt over perids of time? Hell, I adapt from winter to summer in only a matter of about 2 week time.

andy_b
08-28-2007, 10:47 AM
My friend suggested it might be due to uncommonly high survival rates for meadow voles that nest in the junipers and chew the bark. This doesn't usually kill them but there has been a huge explosion in the vole population in the last couple of years. It isn't cold enough in winter.

Evan,

any idea what predator normally eats the voles? my guess is that those animals were also removed from the ecosystem (probably because they had an appetite for small animals and children).

i love how the "problem solvers" come up with solutions to problems they have created and the solutions themselves create even more problems. sort of like burning food for energy (corn and bio-fuels).

andy b.

bhjones
08-28-2007, 11:06 AM
I was thinking the same thing. I have no idea how fast a coal fire migrates, but I assume it's a snails pace. Seems like a semi portable generation station could be designed so it could be moved from hot spot to hot spot over the decades.

The History Channel had a program that touched on the use of geothermal and old WWII naval turbines for electrical generation a couple of weeks ago. Cool stuff.

What are the temps of an active subsurface coal fire?




It is wasted because nobody has opted to take advantage of this excellent geothermal energy source. They need to hire these guys:
http://www.punageothermalventure.com/

aboard_epsilon
08-28-2007, 11:38 AM
Wouldnt drilled holes supply the fires with much needed oxygen to keep burning?? If the air inlets were plugged would nt the fires go out?? HM just wondering

the holes are lined with casings for the first twenty foot or so ...and the hole would be drilled through a gland/ stuffing box with packing in it ...at the same time there is a t-piece on the first and nearest casing ...which is attached to a valve for taking samples of CO.


a gyro-probe is then sent up the hole with long electrical wires on it ...this sends data back as it goes in ...this tells the survey team exactly where the hole ended up.........as the holes wonder all over the place when bored.

after the hole is drilled, pumping of the sealant either posiment or a clay type substance is carried out for a few hours or days ...depending on circumstances.

the last casing is left sticking out of the hole and capped ...."t" is left in place for samples.

old roads are double walled ten foot between walls and filled with sealant .

all the best.mark

Fasttrack
08-28-2007, 01:01 PM
Ditto on what Evan said - i think global warming has become as much political as it was scientific (actually probably much more political), but regardless of that fact global warming is a fact of life.

I found the story about centralia very fascinating. I knew there were underground coal fires but i never really gave them any thought. I kinda want to go poking around centralia now ...

wierdscience
08-28-2007, 02:41 PM
That's it! That's how the Chinese can make all that s---ty cast iron so cheap!

They start a mine fire,then dump scrap down the shaft and bore a tap hole further down,it's so simple:D:D

Boomer
08-28-2007, 06:30 PM
Hang on to your mukluks, in another 30 years we'll be hell bent for an ice age...

http://newsbusters.org/node/5499#comment

Carld
08-28-2007, 07:26 PM
Yes, I guess I don't understand the magnatude of the coal fires in China.

In reading these posts I just thought of something. If the fire somehow generates oxygen to promote the burning and at the same time generates carbon monoxide wouldn't the fire at some time be smothered???

I have seen articles about the underground fires in Penn. and how the ground is hot and smoking and sinking. Just how much damaging CO is really escaping??

Yep, we are in a global warming climate and fossil fuel consumption may have added to it. This has happened many times in the past ages of the Earth and it restores it's self after purging it's self of all habitation. Don't worry about it, the Earth will be renewed and new life forms will appear.

I think getting the ecologists hot on solving the underground fires and leaving everything else alone is a great idea, thanks J Tiers.

dp
08-28-2007, 07:34 PM
This isn't even the worst it's gotten - how about a natural uranium fission reactor:

http://www.ocrwm.doe.gov/factsheets/doeymp0010.shtml

Carld
08-28-2007, 07:51 PM
Well, since the Earth was a molten mass at one time I suppose over the billions of years many thngs took place. I can believe it happened as they described. Is not the sun a neuclear reactor of sorts.

Rich Carlstedt
08-28-2007, 08:07 PM
Evan
I don't think a severe winter will take out the voles.
We have them here in Green Bay, and we have some pretty tough winters.
The voles will eat grass /plants even when there is snow on the ground.
Each spring as the snow melts in my yard, we see tracks all over the place. it looks like a aerial view of a railroad yard. The tracks are not only the paths the voles take, but the "removed" grass in the pathway.

natural preditors are snakes/owls/hawks/foxes/coyotes
Rich

Not to be antagonistic, because I personally believe that our climate changes constantly.
But why does everything get blamed due to Global Warming ?
Thats insanity.
We could say increased homosexuality is a result of Global Warming
SAT scores are down because of GW
Home prices have fallen becasue of GW
We could say the Mayans dissappeared because of GW in 900 AD when the Rain forrest sufficated them

In the old days, it was called "scapegoating",which is a unreasonable assignment ( without logic) of fault to a political foe, so the accuser can feel more important and remove criticism from his character ( called 'displacement").

Rather than seeking truth, they profess their religon as the one truth and those who disagree, regardless of fact, are non-believers and evil.
Know this...those who truly believe in Science are willing to discuss not only the studies, but what was done to prevent false entry of data.
Note the very dangerous word "Consensus"
It was a consensus of scientists that said the "earth was flat" in 1492
It was the consensus of Doctors in 1800 that would bleed patients because they had "bad blood"
It was the "consensus" that the Black Plague was caused by bad air.

Yes, times have not changed
Rich

chief
08-28-2007, 11:20 PM
I think the geo-thermal idea is good. As for the mine fires there are numerous sources that supply oxygen to them, if you caught it early you may have a chance to exthingush it with flyash.
The mine fire is Centralia was perpetuated by the town council's greed.
Shortly after the discovery of the fire (started by burning garbage), a local coal company said they they would dig out the fire and exthingush it in exchange for the good coal they would have to dig up to get at the fire.
The town council wanted to charge them for the coal and make them pay for digging permits. The result, the town is abandoned and the council's precious coal is ash.

Evan
08-29-2007, 12:17 AM
Rich,

There are plenty of other indicators that cannot be ignored. It appears that the greatest effect of global warming is being felt in the coldest climates. The far north areas of Canada are in deep trouble. The ice isn't forming soon enough and is going out too early. It's causing major problems for polar bears and various whales like the beluga not to mention the people that still depend on living off the land a good part of the year. Permafrost is melting and the ecosystems are changing radically. During such a change the effects are mostly negative until new species are able to migrate and colonize.

A cold winter here will knock out most of the voles. Cold here means 40 below for a week or two. We haven't seen that sort of cold since around the mid 80s. In the last ten years the coldest it has been is around -30 for a day or two. In the past we have seen -50. Not any more. These days the coldest we usually see for any length of time is around -20 or so. There is a huge subjective difference between -20 and -40 celsius.

Something to realize about global warming is that it doesn't work the way that people think. In the long term the day time temperatures don't go up noticably. What does happen is that the night time lows aren't as low. This raises the average temperature but isn't easy to notice. This leads a lot of people to dismiss the entire idea.

aostling
08-29-2007, 12:33 AM
The far north areas of Canada are in deep trouble.

The ramifications of the crisis in the far north are really scary. There is a conjecture that methane burps from the tundra could result in a tipping point. Here is an excerpt from this article http://energybulletin.net/3647.html


Once triggered, this cycle could result in runaway global warming the likes of which even the most pessimistic doomsayers aren't talking about.

Rich Carlstedt
08-29-2007, 01:31 AM
Evan
I did not say that the Earth was 'not" getting warmer, I believe we are in a natural cycle. We may be warming, and then again how are the numbers generated
I detest Non-scientific "facts', which are not facts, but opinions!
Lets take for example your comment about polar bears. It is totally and completely false. There is no threat to Polar Bears !
how do you measure it ? with facts or feelings ?
See
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=143012005

Some of what you say may be true, but adding falsehoods (unknowingly)casts doubts on the entire premise, does it not?
I sincerely believe you would not do that Evan, but media input sucks
The hysteria over polar bears is just that. It started with a Artic storm and some tree huggers. They found 3 or 4 polar carcasses after a storm that was so bad, they themselves were confined to quarters for 5 or 6 days
They never checked with the Canadian Scientists, who have been tracking polar bears for years..they shot from the hip, just like many other "so called facts"
We hear that 2006 was the warmest on record, then(QUIETLY) find out that the calculations were wrong and the real record goes to a period some 70 years ago.
Yet the media play up it up !
How about them hurricanes !
Two years ago Algore said we would be decimated again with more Katrinas
Where is/are his Facts? nowhere because it is Hype and hysteria.
we have had 2 years without any hitting our mainland..because "Nature" averages things out..something that GW enthusiasts never,never admit because 'cycles" are not part of their equation.

A good scientist does not "fit the facts" to the observation...but hysteria does !

Voles, my point was that even when the temperature gets down to -20 (F) here, the snow pack keeps them alive as they are insulated from the cold.
the ground will freeze down to 36 inches, but they survive because no predators can reach them
Rich

Evan
08-29-2007, 02:07 AM
Some of what you say may be true, but adding falsehoods (unknowingly)casts doubts on the entire premise, does it not?
I sincerely believe you would not do that Evan, but media input sucks
The hysteria over polar bears is just that. It started with a Artic storm and some tree huggers. They found 3 or 4 polar carcasses after a storm that was so bad, they themselves were confined to quarters for 5 or 6 days
I don't know about that. The problem the polar bears are facing is no ice. That is easy to quantify, even to the untrained observer. It isn't there. They need the ice to hunt. Without ice they starve.

Lets try a source that is a bit more impartial than the tree huggers.



Polar bears on thin ice
By Geoff McMaster (http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/author.cfm?id=29&article=3569), ExpressNews Staff
http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/images/format060103-Desrocher.jpg Dr. Andrew Derocher with a polar bear cub.

Print story (http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/print.cfm?id=3569) | Email story (http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/email.cfm?id=3569)

January 6, 2003 - Unless the pace of global warming is abated, polar bears could disappear within 100 years, says a University of Alberta expert in Arctic ecosystems.

While it has been known for some time that the polar bear is in trouble, new research shows that Arctic ice--the polar bear's primary habitat--is melting much faster than scientists had believed, says U of A biologist Dr. Andrew Derocher.

...

If the predictions are correct, he says, "we'll certainly lose polar bears in a lot of areas where we currently have them." Ice conditions in the Beaufort Sea, for example, are already changing dramatically.


http://www.expressnews.ualberta.ca/article.cfm?id=3569

Link to profile of the researcher:
http://www.science.ualberta.ca/nav02.cfm?nav02=14990&nav01=11471

------------------
The voles don't freeze, they starve. The colder the winter the longer it is to breakup in spring. They run out of stored food and what food they can find diminishes in quality every day that passes.

dp
08-29-2007, 02:25 AM
All the while global warming has been warming the globe the numbers of bears has grown, not shrunk. Populations of bears has been precariously high for some time, in fact. This article provides yet another interesting perspective:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/03/09/wpolar09.xml

One thing missing from this is any suggestion of what is happening to the bears. Nobody has said it is a die-off - they may simply have migrated elsewhere. If the harp seal populations grow then the bear numbers should remain healthy.

Not to pick on Canada, but did you notice that one of the immediate moves Canada has made in reaction to thinning arctic ice is to attempt to establish territorial rights to the same underwater ridge the Russians are claiming? It's for the oil, of course. If oil is causing global warming it seems also to have a positive feedback mechanism that results in more oil. Now that seems counter-productive and carbon positive in the extreme.

Evan
08-29-2007, 03:16 AM
It's for the oil, of course. If oil is causing global warming it seems also to have a positive feedback mechanism that results in more oil. Now that seems counter-productive and carbon positive in the extreme.

Yes, of course. Also access to new shipping lanes in the future is in play. Unfortunately, as in all enterprises that involve great heaping piles of money there are a goodly number of people in decision making capacity that care only about those piles of money. Global warming and CO2 are irrelevant except in how it either costs or makes money.

rbregn
08-29-2007, 03:41 AM
I think Global warming is a natural cycle. I also think man is speeding it up. Will the planet survive? Yes, will mankind, maybe not. I would like to think the planet would stay like it is for my grandkids. will it? I won't guess. I am not any better then anyone else at predicting the future. Science will make our guesses better, but it is still a guess. My guess is that if some of the tree huggers were around before the grand canyon and the waterfalls were formed they would have tried to stop the erosion to protect the environment! We as humans are pretty egotistical in thinking we know what is best for mother nature. Extremist on both sides of the issue are not helping mankind in surviving. Thats the real issue is how long will this cycle last. I bought a case of cosmoline so what ever evolves during the next lifecycle to be "top dog" can use my equipment that I left behind. Maybe they will put in the next Jurassic park!
Earth first..............we'll mine the rest of the planets later kidding!:D

Rich Carlstedt
08-29-2007, 01:06 PM
Evan

Mr Dourocher is a tree hugger, I do not think he is unbiased at all !
I know he has been tagging polar bears for the past 2 years, but why not look at Mitch Taylor, who hads made Polar bears his life, and he has worked for the Northwest Territories government as a polar bear specialist for many years.He is not a late comer to the issue.
http://meteo.lcd.lu/globalwarming/Taylor/last_stand_of_our_wild_polar_bears.html

This is from a Scientist who lives up near the Artic circle
not a College professor who is involved with GW proponents

http://pbsg.npolar.no/Meetings/participants.htm
You will see that Mr Taylor has been a participant in the Polar Bear statistiics group since 1981
Rich

When you want to know how many "floors" are in a building, you ask the elevator operator, not the door man ! Door men forget the sublevel stops !

dp
08-30-2007, 04:13 AM
I think Global warming is a natural cycle.

You're exactly right. We've been in an interglacial period for a rather normal period of time and there is nothing to suggest we're not going to return to a time of glaciation. The artisans of Cosquer Cave lived in more typical times, climatically speaking, but the warming that nearly buried their work began long before moose and bovine farts and especially SUVs were part of the current drama. We can look forward to a day when we can again walk into this cave and paint grafiti on it's walls: http://www.culture.gouv.fr/culture/archeosm/en/fr-cosqu1.htm

Something to think about is, suppose the world of today were exactly like the world then, frozen and with sea levels far lower than today. It would have been very normal and any change would cause the same outcry we see today. "The world is warming! All is lost!!!". Arguments would be made about the certain extinction of animals, inundation of seacoasts, loss of habitable zones, the end times for mankind and terrestrial life. Except the world did warm, that cave entrance is now far below sea level, and life not only survived, it thrived and continues to do well, and the result is the world we now claim is worth sacrificing all to protect and maintain in it's current condition. It is ludicrous.

Of all the species ever to populate this speck, a speck tumbling lost and alone in the vastness of space and time, we alone are capable of such arrogance regarding our presumed stewardship of this speck and what will happen next.