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View Full Version : Security System, Building an expensive camera lens, cheap.



Evan
09-10-2007, 03:23 PM
I have recently installed a video surveillance system. We have been having some instances of people driving up to the top of the hill and parking in the cul-de-sac at the end of the road. One person, young male, pretending to read a book when approached. They are checking out how much activity there is in the area and if they will be noticed. This is, according to the police, the latest technique the B&E artists are using. They are moving out to the rural areas because it's becoming too difficult in town. Sigh.

I do have protection starting with Beardog and followed by Spalding and ending with Ruger, Enfield and Winchester etc but I would prefer they don't try me. To that end I have put up a nice 2 camera wireless video system. One overlooks the cul-de-sac and the other is focused on our main driveway and my shop area. It lets me know when someone is checking out our hill. All I need to do is flip on my 2500 watts of halogen yard lights that they can see through the trees and then they leave.

The lens is a wide angle add-lens which I made from scrap photocopier lens elements. It's a two element lens using a double concave coated objective and a multicoated plano-convex secondary. All parts of the body of the lens are turned on my SB9 from ordinary black plastic water pipe.

I like making things on the lathe from plastic pipe as it is cheap and turns very nicely. You have to be a bit creative when it comes to work holding but a selection of wooden plugs helps a lot. Also, if you do crash the part it just flies out of the chuck and at the worst you start over with a new piece.

Plate 1 shows the lens.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/clens1.jpg

In the next plate you can see the camera on the left in the as supplied configuration. These are pretty nice units that I bought on sale from Radio Shack (called "The Source" here). They are all metal, not one piece of plastic anywhere, not even the receiver case. The cameras are weather tight and the range is about 300 feet. I have stepped that up a lot by using the receiver at the focus of a small satellite dish in the attic of my garage shop. That also helps overcome interference since these run on 2.4 ghz along with everything else in the world. They work fine out here but wouldn't likely be acceptable in a built up area because of RFI. They still need a power source but that is easy and cheap to run compared to 300 feet of low loss video cable.

The pic below on the left is what it looks like on the el-cheapo 13" color TV I bought for a realtime monitor. On the right is how it looks with the wide angle add lens. It isn't extreme and so doesn't introduce much distortion but does nicely increase the observable area.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/clens2.jpg

In the next plate on the upper left is a view of the cul-de-sac from the other camera.

On the right I also have the image being sent to a new single purpose web server I set up that serves a new image on the web every 30 seconds. That can be seen on any web browser including around the property and house on my wireless Palm TX handheld. In fact, I can check up on things from anywhere in the world that I have wireless access. I am not releasing the address as that would kill my servers with the load.

The lens is a universal add-lens since it produces a virtual image at infinity. You can hold it up to your eye and see the same effect or stick it in front of a digital camera. The bottom two pics are what it looks like when held in front of the lens on my Nikon 4300, wide angle on the right.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/clens3.jpg

The optics are simple, two standard lens elements with an air gap. The double concave objective receives light from a wide angle and without inverting it spreads it over the area of the convex secondary. The secondary refocuses the rays to the angle that the camera's normal lens is able to encompass. The add lens is adjustable for spacing between the elements as this controls the apparent distance of the virtual image.

The below figure shows the approximate optical path.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/clens4.jpg

I will be busy for the next few hours but if anyone has questions about the lens or security system I will try to answer them later.

Dawai
09-10-2007, 04:44 PM
Hi..

You left out pci video4 board ($25 off ebay), Linux (free), motion-detection software (free) and XAWTV (free)... It snaps a picture everytime something moves. OR a video.

all off sourceforge.org and other places.

Why make a lens? I am confused.. aren't they cheap? are you after some ultra resolution?

I have a $85 microscope camera, a $20 Northerntool telescope that plug together to allow 200 yard viewing. I got some excellet shots of the meth dealers I had next door in the obnoxious rental trailer.. As soon as I pointed out the camera pointing to my driveway, thier door, they moved off.

So, old mailboxes, shot glasses (looks like a lens), and a blinking led would work almost as good as a camera. A local store put up large signs under all thier cameras, camera 1,2 etc.. thefts went way down. I have considered it.

Evan
09-10-2007, 05:01 PM
I use nothing but free software. Sourceforge is the first place I look.

A wide angle add lens to fit that exact camera probably doesn't exist. If it does I am certain it isn't cheap. Note that this is an "add lens". It is added to the lens already in place. This is for cameras that don't have interchangeable lenses that will not work in this case. An add lens is usually designed to produce a virtual image at infinity which ensures it will work with any camera it fits.

J Tiers
09-10-2007, 11:10 PM
One of the more effective ways of "noticing" is to just happen to be out with the shotgun when you "notice" the guy parked.

A nice friendly question like "howdy, boy, you lost?" while you have the shotgun over your arm is very discouraging to loafers.

Questions about "squealing like a pig" are optional if there are a couple of you......... :D

Any decently competent thief will clean you out and take the camera et al with him.

TGTool
09-10-2007, 11:45 PM
Any decently competent thief will clean you out and take the camera et al with him.

Ah, but will a thief also be competent enough to find the server address and delete those last few pics saved on the server showing him reaching up to get that camera? If he really is that good he ought to be breaking into a much more high class place.

Evan
09-11-2007, 12:59 AM
Any decently competent thief will clean you out and take the camera et al with him.

Not while I'm home which is nearly all the time. I don't sleep much either, 2 to 3 hours per night.

Also, he isn't going to find the camera looking out on the road. My wife knew where it is because I showed it to her but when she went for a walk on the road she couldn't find it. It looks like a stub of a tree branch and is painted olive drab. It's also 15 feet up a tree.

I have an advantage in that my property can only be approached from one place, up the driveway. The rest of my frontage is protected by a 30 to 40 foot deep and steep ravine filled with dense trees and brush as well as brambles. There is no access at all to the other sides of the property except by hiking overland.

J Tiers
09-11-2007, 12:59 AM
Ah, but will a thief also be competent enough to find the server address and delete those last few pics saved on the server showing him reaching up to get that camera? If he really is that good he ought to be breaking into a much more high class place.

I have heard that it is considered bad form among competent thieves to simper sweetly as you stare into the camera with your uncovered face......

Too_Many_Tools
09-11-2007, 01:35 AM
One of the more effective ways of "noticing" is to just happen to be out with the shotgun when you "notice" the guy parked.

A nice friendly question like "howdy, boy, you lost?" while you have the shotgun over your arm is very discouraging to loafers.

Questions about "squealing like a pig" are optional if there are a couple of you......... :D

Any decently competent thief will clean you out and take the camera et al with him.

I would recommend not showing the guns.

Knowing that you have guns tells the bad guys that you have something worth stealing...the guns.

Good thieves are not deterred by firepower...they will put them on their to-steal list.

The real key is not to flaunt your wealth.

In regards to a HSM theme, the fewer people who know you have valuable tools the better.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-11-2007, 01:40 AM
Excellent posting Evan.

I would be interested in hearing any details you wish to offer of the project.

TMT

aostling
09-11-2007, 01:40 AM
The lens is a wide angle add-lens which I made from scrap photocopier lens elements. It's a two element lens using a double concave coated objective and a multicoated plano-convex secondary.

It appears that you have fashioned a wide-angle converter lens, such as this one which fits your camera: http://www.amazon.com/Nikon-Wide-Angle-Converter-Digital-Cameras/dp/B000052187 These converters are usually quite short. I'm wondering why you have such a relatively long barrel. Was this dictated by the surplus lens elements available?

HTRN
09-11-2007, 02:01 AM
I would recommend not showing the guns.

Knowing that you have guns tells the bad guys that you have something worth stealing...the guns.

Good thieves are not deterred by firepower...they will put them on their to-steal list.

Take this to heart - 20/20 did a special a bunch of years ago, with a former professional burgler. He pointed out a bunch of things -
1)The three things that burglers are looking for are guns, prescription drugs, and jewelry(all three have street value). I imagine expensive portable electronics like laptops and Ipods also go into the mix.
2)the things they fear most are armed homeowners and dogs, in that order.
3)Those security systems aren't much of a deterrent, but they do put them to the clock - most claim a 3-5 minute response time. Most burglers are in and out in less than 2. Their demo was completed in 45 seconds.
4)Because time is not their friends, anything to slow them down, like front doors that lock with a key from the inside(forcing them to go back the way they came), or casement windows surrounded by rosebushes. a keypad to activate the garage door opener, instead of just a button..
5)Most burglers will make a beeline for the masterbedroom - this is where the jewelry is, this is where the drugs probably are(master bath), and this is where the guns are likely to be(in the master bedroom closet), so for your own sake, don't store your wifes good jewely or your vintage Parker there!
Camera's - one of the best places to put a camera is in your garage, because they'll tend to open it and pull their getaway vehicle in while they loot the house. Often you can catch the license plate.
6)Don't go nuts on securing the front door - burglers rarely come in that way. They're most common avenue of entry is either a basement casement window, or a sliding glass door, because neither can be seen from the street.

Evan
09-11-2007, 04:07 AM
Allan,

It's actually the same optical principle as this one:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00006B7TY/ref=pd_cp_p_3_img/103-7766722-6550244?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_r=1CQN18SV3D5PQZR671E9&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=250314001&pf_rd_i=B000052187

Yes, the length is dictated by the available lenses. But more important is that the Nikon 4300 is capable of focusing to points other than infinity so the converter needn't be configured to provide an infinity focus virtual image. If I stacked the elements so that they were nearly touching then it would produce a focal point somewhat short of infinity, not a problem for an autofocus camera. The security camera is fixed focus at infinity and that requires the converter to do the same.

Evan
09-11-2007, 04:09 AM
Camera's - one of the best places to put a camera is in your garage, because they'll tend to open it and pull their getaway vehicle in while they loot the house.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha......

Evan
09-11-2007, 04:30 AM
Things work a little differently here. Note that I mean here, not someplace like Vancouver.


1)The three things that burglers are looking for are guns, prescription drugs, and jewelry(all three have street value). I imagine expensive portable electronics like laptops and Ipods also go into the mix.

Here booze is high on the list. Everyone has guns including the perps. Nobody ever uses them though. Also popular are snowmobiles and cars.

2)the things they fear most are armed homeowners and dogs, in that order.

Reverse that order here.


3)Those security systems aren't much of a deterrent, but they do put them to the clock - most claim a 3-5 minute response time.
Most burglers are in and out in less than 2. Their demo was completed in 45 seconds.

The response time of the police here to a B&E ranges from whenever they finish lunch plus 1 hour to the next day, if they bother at all. I am not exaggerating at all, it isn't a priority and many of the surrounding communities have no resident policing.


4)Because time is not their friends, anything to slow them down, like front doors that lock with a key from the inside(forcing them to go back the way they came), or casement windows surrounded by rosebushes. a keypad to activate the garage door opener, instead of just a button..

Physical security is useless here. If somebody wants to get into my house they will either drive or chainsaw through the wall. Nobody will notice. I don't bother to secure the house and usually leave it unlocked. Less damage that way.

5)Most burglers will make a beeline for the masterbedroom - this is where the jewelry is, this is where the drugs probably are(master bath), and this is where the guns are likely to be(in the master bedroom closet), so for your own sake, don't store your wifes good jewely or your vintage Parker there!

Camera's - one of the best places to put a camera is in your garage, because they'll tend to open it and pull their getaway vehicle in while they loot the house. Often you can catch the license plate.

See previous post. :D

6)Don't go nuts on securing the front door - burglers rarely come in that way. They're most common avenue of entry is either a basement casement window, or a sliding glass door, because neither can be seen from the street.

See item 4. None of my house or outbuildings can be seen from the street. This is a rural area. The urban rules do not apply. The best deterrent is to put them on notice that you know they are up to something in your area. That is the point of my security system. The very first night after I installed it we had a "parker" in the cul-de-sac. He took off as soon as the lights were turned on. The security system alerts us to their presence. Nobody on the hill here can see the cul-de-sac from their house.

J Tiers
09-11-2007, 10:23 AM
I would recommend not showing the guns.

Knowing that you have guns tells the bad guys that you have something worth stealing...the guns.

Good thieves are not deterred by firepower...they will put them on their to-steal list.

The real key is not to flaunt your wealth.

In regards to a HSM theme, the fewer people who know you have valuable tools the better.

TMT

Anyone living out there has guns.... except wild tree-huggers. That's sorta silly.

They may not know exactly where you live anyway, you walked up out of the woods, and a quick response is quite discouraging.

If I WANTED to discover what you have and where it is, I could do that. And then steal it if I so desired. There is ALWAYS a way. Like assassins.... Study the ways of the dictator, and eventually you see how to get him.

The key is that criminals, at least ones who are planning oriented, which includes these, like "easy". If it looks hard, they move on.

My wife's aunt locked herself out of her house.

I was inside in 1 minute, through the sliding door, which was secured from outside with one screw. Took that long because I didn't want to do damage......

A.K. Boomer
09-11-2007, 11:15 AM
. One person, young male, pretending to read a book when approached. .



Thats just plain creepy, and very sad that your having to deal with potentual crap like that all the way out where you live, I have many friends in the local mountains and dont think iv heard anything of this nature except for some over zealous real estate agent crossing onto thier property (in which one of my friends did show a gun:D )

You a smart guy to take all the precautions and the camera's are just another deterent, I hope you took the time to get that guys plate Number and told it to a niehbor or the police, It could prove an invaluble tool should you ever be held against your will by the recognized perp ------ right off the bat tell them what the score is and to count thier losses because theyve basically already been caught, The thing about thieves is it can easily cross the line of what they set out to do and what they feel like they have to do should they actually have a confrontation with the home owner, I was bored last night and watched nightline, it was very upsetting, two perps parked at a supermarket to check out the people who just got done shopping, they used a rough type of profiling --- seen a mother and her 11 year old daughter get into a fairly upper class vehicle and then followed them home just to find out where they lived, were "impressed" with the house so then went back at night just to rob the place, but the husband was downstairs and fell asleep on the sofa while studying, thats when things went from bad to worse, they beat him with a baseball bat till unconscious and tied him up in the basement - raped his wife and young daughter and then set the house on fire to cover their tracks, there was an older daughter who was also killed, very upsetting ----
the thing is is one of them went out for gasoline so this was not part of the original plan ---------- if you think you got someone staking out your place I would not blame you for wearing a firearm around the shop or in your house for that matter, If the camera shows nothing after a few months then you can start to relax --- a little... If someone does ever show up with a weapon on your property do the world a favor and take them out, completely,,, save tax dollars and the potentual of them ever doing it again.
The two guys I mentioned were X-cons who had just been released on probation...

Evan
09-11-2007, 11:56 AM
Thats just plain creepy, and very sad that your having to deal with potentual crap like that all the way out where you live, I have many friends in the local mountains and dont think iv heard anything of this nature except for some over zealous real estate agent crossing onto thier property
The situation here is not quite the same as most places. At least half of the criminal activity is perpetrated by young male natives who come from the reserves in this area. We have a large indigenous population here with reserves out of town in every direction so it isn't surprising that they would start checking out the rural areas eventually when the pickings in town became too difficult.

I'm not picking on an identifiable group out of racisim or other similar reasons, the statistics in court here back my assertion. While the great majority of the native population are good citizens there is a small but very active element that is commonly involved in drugs and theft. B&E is the most common with any confrontation with owners to be avoided if at all possible. Licence tags are useless as the vehicle is either stolen or unregistered. No thief in their right mind would drive a vehicle registered to themself.

Also, a majority of the vehicles driven in the outlying communities, both natives and the rest of us, are unregistered including my Land Rover. We mostly only bother to register the vehicles we use to drive into town. If you knew how our auto insurance rates are structured you would understand why. There is no discount at all for registering and insuring second, third or more vehicles.

Of course that doesn't matter to the thieves. The crime rate here is split. Serious crimes against persons are extremely rare while property crime is epidemic. Armed robbery is almost unheard of, rape and murder even less common. Car theft and B&E is very high and the sentences are very light if any time is served at all. Whereas in some states such as California a third felony conviction results in a life sentence here it is common to see a career car thief with 20 or more convictions do maybe 3 months for another.

That however is largely a political problem and I can't do anything about that. The security system isn't just for my benefit as the neighbours will have access to the web cam and will also be keeping an eye out for strangers. We are a close knit community of about 10 property owners in the immediate area. We all know each other well and look out for each other's backs. Help with anything is only as far as the phone.

Dawai
09-11-2007, 12:01 PM
Actually stomp one guy and the rest seem to know all about it. Tackling a arsonist running down the street and ripping his eye open on the asphalt and I had no problems with thieves in Rossville. Ever seen a guy after 300lbs rode his back like a sled? The police told me thou if they ever had to come get me, they'd send the state patrol.. NOW, what kind of talk is that for a honest citizen to hear? What confused them was I refused to give custody over till the officers arrived, the ambulance drivers wanted him to treat, I had him face down in the gravel.

I don't know what to do now? I put up a fence for my dog, it gives a appearance I got something to steal. I have had three people come over the fence at different times. Law says you can't kill them. You sure feel like it thou, I have worked for everything I have.

I am older and sicker, I can't fight like I used to, now I have a gun. I also have cameras pointed to all zeniths of the compass.

cadwiz
09-11-2007, 01:41 PM
Last month I installed a wireless PTZ camera for some of the same reasons above (thanks David Cofer for inspiration a few months ago). If nothing else just to get evidence of the crime and to film the UPS guy backing up and throwing packages from his seat into my carport! Mine's a Panasonic which allows free setup on a static DNS hosting site specific for Panasonics. I can access from the web at work and see what's going on at home. Even records from heat or motion trigger and automatically sends either a snapshot or video clip to my phone or a email of choice. Now that I've got the one and checked it out I'm thinking of adding a few more cheaper wired versions without the pan/tilt/zoom to get coverage of all the access points. I figure every little bit helps these days. Having spent 11 yrs in law enforcement I know very well what happens without evidence: no plate, no pic, no description = no help.

Cadwiz

Evan
09-11-2007, 02:18 PM
Time is 10:14 am PDT. I am taking my server down for maintenance for the next hour or so. The pics won't show up until it is finished. Sorry about that.

Wayne02
09-11-2007, 03:23 PM
Having spent 11 yrs in law enforcement I know very well what happens without evidence: no plate, no pic, no description = no help.
Cadwiz
Yes, this is what LE has told me as well. They said the best thing is to have a system that you can burn the video on a dvd to give to the responding officers. They also said that the their best chance of finding the perp is within X hours after the incident, and the best piece of data to have is a plate number and car description. They told me that there has been limited success with face recognition on tape, mostly because the resolution, lighting, and angles were so poor on the cameras.

I need to set up a system here at the house and wish I could figure out a way to set one up on our rural undeveloped property as well.

Does the wireless stuff work ok now? Last time I looked into this the wireless products did not have good reviews.

Is it possible to set up a system on unattended property that has no power? Do they have solar charged, battery operated, weatherproof cameras these days? Of course then the question becomes how do I port the feed to a location where it can be put on the internet. We have family members on the adjoining acreage, but not all camera locations would be line of sight. Wonder if the feed could be transmitted somehow to their home, to a PC I set up and is hooked to the Inet via dsl?? Hmm, prolly asking a bit much.

Dawai
09-11-2007, 03:51 PM
Gadspot Ie wireless camera, No luck.. It works okay with a cable. I messed with it till I was frustrated. (obsessive compulsive disorder)

It is over a friends, not being used there either. (he could not make it work either)

It did have a C-mount to mount that big ole television news camera lens onto.

BadDog
09-11-2007, 03:55 PM
Looking in hunting supply magazines. The sell cameras to put out so you can see deer and what not that pass through, and where. Hunters use them to find out if any good game is in the general area before hunting season begins.

Evan
09-11-2007, 05:26 PM
Does the wireless stuff work ok now? Last time I looked into this the wireless products did not have good reviews.

The low cost wireless system I bought works fine. BUT, I live in a remote area without a lot of interference. The system operates on 2.4 gigahertz which is the same as computer 802.11g wireless and microwave ovens plus a slew of other products. There aren't that many channels to go around so the chance of interference is pretty high. I have had to fiddle with the channel assignments on my wireless network to cut down the interference. I also used a left over Bell Expressvue satellite dish to focus the receiver away from the direction of the router.

The cameras are standard NTSC composite video. This is the television standard and it is pretty low resolution no matter how much you pay since it was developed in the 1940's. Standard TV is lower resolution than a low res 640 x 480 computer screen, it doesn't even come close. About the absolute best a color TV can do is around 450 x 400 interlaced and the color resolution is much lower.

A black and white camera can do better on the NTSC system but not a great deal better. To get really good resolution requires a hires system or now, an HDTV system. BIG $$$$$.

What you want to do Wayne is all possible. All it takes is dollars. Solar probably isn't the best solution although it could supplement. For that sort of setup a fuel cell would be a better power source.

A.K. Boomer
09-11-2007, 05:56 PM
Im pretty stress free about this stuff, just because Im not married and dont have kids, (i mean,,, whata ya gonna do -- rape my dogs? have fun and oh yeah,,, i think Maggies got some kind of funky lookin rash on her personals, dont be thinkin Luka's safe cuz thats where i think the pig got it from in the first place) ((gotta luv those lesbians))) But if I was then everything would change, I cant imagine what it would be like to be the man of the house and be helpless to defend my family, I have a friend who I used to ride bikes with --- his daughter got gang raped in her own apartment a few years back, they never caught the guys, maybe lucky for my friend cuz all thier problems would be imediatly over and he'd be the one doing the time:cool:

I may be pretty stress free about it --- till i hear other peoples situations then i get very upset --- not very upset -- outright pissed...

If there is proof positive then i truly believe that thier merry-go-round ride on the planet should be terminated --- imediatly, my friends daughter moved back in with him and his wife --- she's gotta be like 23 or 24 now....
I guess maybe you could say she got lucky because they didnt kill her afterwords, dont ask for details as my friend really wont talk about it much, what a sucky thing for a dad to have to go through...

A.K. Boomer
09-11-2007, 06:15 PM
Licence tags are useless as the vehicle is either stolen or unregistered. No thief in their right mind would drive a vehicle registered to themself.

.



I am with Cadwiz on this one, any evidence is at least a start, it can form other leads where as no evidence cannot form anything,,,
The plates may lead you to an area where the perp actually is from, or all kinds of other things can come from it,,,

also in answer to the second sentence, Show me a thief who is truly in his right mind and there will be no thief to show in the first place...

Evan
09-11-2007, 06:58 PM
The plates may lead you to an area where the perp actually is from, or all kinds of other things can come from it,,,

All it will lead you to here is the former owner of the vehicle. That won't do much good and if the vehicle is ever found it will be because it was burnt out at the side of the road to eliminate evidence. That is standard practice around here and is even nicknamed the Chilcotin Taxi service as several of the more notorious reserves are in the Chilcotin district. Vehicles are stolen here as an easy way to get back home after a day in town. It will be parked a couple of kilometers from the reserve and torched. Every year or two they go out with the portable crusher and pick them up.

If it isn't burnt because it was a particularly nice one then it may be spotted from time to time on a reserve. That's pretty much a "Law Free" zone as the police won't enter reserve land to arrest somebody except for a major crime such as murder. They don't want a repeat of the 100 Mile House incident just 60 miles south of here when they had 23,000 shots fired at them.

As I said, the problem is a political one.

A.K. Boomer
09-11-2007, 07:05 PM
Holy crap you catz got problemz...

Dawai
09-11-2007, 07:57 PM
23000 shots? need a coal scoop for the brass. That's a lot, lot, lot.

Chain gun?

There was this cop car locally (Atlanta) that got #5 30 round magazines unloaded close range. The policeman survived. The policecar made national news If I remember. Swiss cheese.

Too_Many_Tools
09-12-2007, 02:10 AM
Take this to heart - 20/20 did a special a bunch of years ago, with a former professional burgler. He pointed out a bunch of things -
1)The three things that burglers are looking for are guns, prescription drugs, and jewelry(all three have street value). I imagine expensive portable electronics like laptops and Ipods also go into the mix.
2)the things they fear most are armed homeowners and dogs, in that order.
3)Those security systems aren't much of a deterrent, but they do put them to the clock - most claim a 3-5 minute response time. Most burglers are in and out in less than 2. Their demo was completed in 45 seconds.
4)Because time is not their friends, anything to slow them down, like front doors that lock with a key from the inside(forcing them to go back the way they came), or casement windows surrounded by rosebushes. a keypad to activate the garage door opener, instead of just a button..
5)Most burglers will make a beeline for the masterbedroom - this is where the jewelry is, this is where the drugs probably are(master bath), and this is where the guns are likely to be(in the master bedroom closet), so for your own sake, don't store your wifes good jewely or your vintage Parker there!
Camera's - one of the best places to put a camera is in your garage, because they'll tend to open it and pull their getaway vehicle in while they loot the house. Often you can catch the license plate.
6)Don't go nuts on securing the front door - burglers rarely come in that way. They're most common avenue of entry is either a basement casement window, or a sliding glass door, because neither can be seen from the street.

If the bad guys want guns and the home owners are armed, then why do their guns still get stolen? ;<)

Better that they don't know that you have them....or all the other toys that we all like to buy.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-12-2007, 02:16 AM
The security system isn't just for my benefit as the neighbours will have access to the web cam and will also be keeping an eye out for strangers. We are a close knit community of about 10 property owners in the immediate area. We all know each other well and look out for each other's backs. Help with anything is only as far as the phone.

Evan, you may want to advise your neighbors that this information is for "adults only"....perhaps available by a password.

I am aware of an Internet survelliance setup that was compromised when a child of one of the neighbors broadcast the website's existence to one of their less than desirable friends. The preps then used the survelliance site to do their own recon of the neighborhood.

TMT

Too_Many_Tools
09-12-2007, 02:27 AM
Things work a little differently here. Note that I mean here, not someplace like Vancouver.


3)Those security systems aren't much of a deterrent, but they do put them to the clock - most claim a 3-5 minute response time.
Most burglers are in and out in less than 2. Their demo was completed in 45 seconds.

The response time of the police here to a B&E ranges from whenever they finish lunch plus 1 hour to the next day, if they bother at all. I am not exaggerating at all, it isn't a priority and many of the surrounding communities have no resident policing.



I recall once I tripped an alarm while housesitting for a friend.

Advertised response time was 5 minutes.

Actual response time was 35 minutes.

I had coffee and doughnuts waiting for the officers when they arrived.

TMT

Evan
09-12-2007, 04:16 AM
Evan, you may want to advise your neighbors that this information is for "adults only"....perhaps available by a password.
No problem. All of our neighbours but for one family are our age and retired. No children to be concerned about. I likely will put in place some password protection even though the web site doesn't have a domain name. It's accessible via IP address only. I have a spare static IP I'm not using to put it on.

An interesting thing happened as soon as it went live. Within 24 hours it had over 3000 hits by search engines trying to catalog the site. They can't but what it means is that the search engines, including Google, are doing port scans. Search engine traffic is becoming a major problem and is raising the background "noise level" on the net considerably. Some search engines are very poorly behaved and will open multiple connections to the site at once and place a considerable load on the server.

Incidentally, I can usually pinpoint the IP address of the members on this BBS. The BBS shows who is currently browsing what pages and my monitor software gives me the IP address in realtime of everyone that is connected to my server in order to download images that I put on the pages.

Here is an example of the current connections a few minutes ago. I have remote access to my servers in town.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/users1.jpg

Online security is an illusion.

Dawai
09-12-2007, 09:03 AM
<quote> Online security is a illusion<end quote>

Depending upon others to protect you is a larger illusion. There is no personal security anymore. Not on the net, or home.

Allowing others, via net pictures, visitors you don't know, relatives who bring in people you don't know opens your home and lives up for complications.

As Evan has proven now, there is nowhere to hide, from yourself or problems.
I moved into a neighborhood where a neighbor and I would get drunk and holler at each other about three times a week, he got burned out, problems have moved into the neighborhood since, over and over. Junkies are not scared. Meth addicts are not scared, cameras or guns or pitt bulldogs like Butch was.

What the trick is to make yourself not a naive victim. If someone wants what you got bad enough, if you shoot them for stealing it? you lost multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars proving yourself innocent in our court system. They treat you just like you killed the mayors son. Before you pull the trigger, make sure it is worth it.

Used to be the Klan horsewhipped people who mistreated thier familys or stole a lot and got caught doing so. The Klan, nicknamed by a friend who spent most his life in prison? Klu Klux Klowns. The klan of the 40s in Flintstone had black members. Tell someone that now in the 25 or so un-related chapters of small groups in the Chattanooga area and you'd better be ready to fight.. It was a community group who worked for reform of thier own area.

I joined a community group, it is called neighborhood watch. So far I got a neighbors kid arrested for climbing into his parents basement window. He had drugs on him. It did not amuse the parents, but since they have a young daughter I took no chances. He did not have a key to the door for some reason, By entering the basement window, he did not have permission to do so. They were just mad he got cost some money for the pot in his pocket.

I posted all the information on Neighborhood watches in Adrians website
http://bbssystem.com/viewtopic.php?t=1414 in pdf format.

I know people who would love to be able to look around their homes before they go home. Net cameras.. Women mostly, retired professionals, people who are scared to come out of their homes but must to earn a living.

Paul Alciatore
09-12-2007, 10:28 AM
For everybody's education, the add on lenses are common and not very expensive. I have seen sets of two, wide angle and telephoto, as cheap as $40 or less. These lenses will work with almost any camera as long as they are large enough to cover the input pupil (apparent size as viewed from the front) of the lens. With security type cameras that input pupil is so small that success is almost guaranteed with any add on lens.

If you want to discourage such activity, I would also add some lights with motion sensors. They will come on if anyone approaches at night. I have them on my house. But not much help in the daytime.

A.K. Boomer
09-12-2007, 11:02 AM
I believe in motion sensors also, they really are one of the best deterents if set up properly --- There is always a way around everything though, I can trick my motion detector no matter the sensitivity setting just by moving extremely slow without jerky motions, so if they already know its there then you cant rely 100% on them, but you could wire them to make a little LED go on in your house and workshop itself and not broadcast the light outside, or a beeper, then you would really have the element of surprise not just at night either --- if your not home flip a switch and go back to standard mode --- If someone really had a bad situation they could carry a wireless beeper or vibe maker that at a glance tells you which area to pursue, if you have lots of wildife you wont get much sleep though -----
I bet they also have more advanced detection units than what i got that may detect heat/and motion...

Best bet, wire your motion detector segregated from the light itself, then at least you dont broadcast where the detector is with the position of the light, way harder for them to figure out where the detection unit is if its still in the dark even though the light came on in a slightly different area. edit--- of course youll know exactly where to look for them ;>}

Evan
09-12-2007, 11:31 AM
Motion sensors with light won't help either Paul. The cul-de-sac has no lighting and I want it to stay that way. Lights coming on at any of our houses won't alert anybody except the residents and that happens nightly from our year around resident deer population. Our houses are far enough apart and sheltered that nobody can see anyone else's house.

Lights are still good as it enables me to see and the camera as well. The built in IR illuminator isn't nearly powerful enough to illuminate at the range needed.

I have been doing a series of tests every night to discover the most effective nightly lighting for my driveway to provide sufficient illumination for the camera. It has a 1 lux rating.

The tests revealed some interesting results. CF bulbs are virtually useless. A 100 watt equivalent CF floodlight provided no useful illumination in my driveway for the camera. For night illumination the higher the near infrared content the less wattage is needed as the cameras are very sensitive to IR as well as visible light. CF bulbs have virtually no IR emission.

A 250 watt IR chicken brood lamp was effective but that is a significant expense to run every night. An ordinary 100 watt incandescent bulb was partially effective but not really bright enough on camera.

Interestingly, the best result is also one of the cheapest to operate. A single 50 watt halogen PAR20 floodlamp bulb gave sufficient illumination for the camera to see clearly out to over 100 feet. Halogen lamps are extremely rich in near infrared, the exact spectrum to which the camera is most sensitive. Ordinary incandescent bulbs also generate a lot of infrared but because of their lower color temperature it is skewed to the longer wavelength infrared which isn't as useful for the camera.

Dawai
09-12-2007, 12:54 PM
MY $39.99 on sale HF infrared cameras caught 42,000+ pictures of a moth.

IR is not worth a flip over four feet on them.. ANY light sources that work would be appreciated. My wife's contacts look like demon eyes thou. FUnny..

I had a motion detector in Rossville, it was tied into a buzzer/time delay relay with latch, it'd buzz, I could get to the window and the light would come on with the time delay, a decent time delay can be as simple as a dc relay, a resistor, and capacitor to charge up, a zener to turn on the relay when voltage builds to level.

Out to the shop, A tin building is like Hell in the heat. I put a fan in the wall.. It gives you a headache with the run run run of the belt and blades.

Evan
09-12-2007, 02:47 PM
I put the light about 6 feet away from the camera. It keeps the moths away from the lens.

Ausserdog
09-12-2007, 03:06 PM
Long ago a neighbor at the end of the street had a party for their teenage kids. Next morning the window in my car was smashed and the radio gone. Of course the cops figured it was the guy I bought the car from who did it. :rolleyes:

I then added a motion detector and 500w Halogen flood light along with an old telephone bell overlooking the driveway. Typically it would go off once every couple of days - usually opossums or racoons, sometimes the neighbors cat. Next time the neighbor had a party the motion sensor went off 12 times in 2 hours. Guess they wanted the replacement radio too.

My stuff didn't get bothered after that.

jim davies
09-15-2007, 02:38 AM
Sigh...Evan's mention of the ol' Chilcotin Taxi service shows not much has changed since I lived in Willy's Puddle. Back then it was apparently a jailing offence if members of a certain cultural community were caught with a Ford truck keyed ignition switch on their person. Ford was the last one to switch to steering column locks, and these folks would just go to the local junkyard and buy a Ford ignition assembly, then when they needed "taxi service" they would just pop the multiconnector off the back of the "taxi," connect it too their own switch, start up and drive off.

Now of course, the police might press charges against someone for this, but it sure as hell won't be the perp. Maybe they can get the victim to make threats against the perp...bingo, jail time. As Even says, a political problem.

I wonder if the Tribune [local paper] still runs the court report column from Alexis Creek? Used to be the highlight of the paper, whoever wrote it had a bit of a sense of humor and a cast of absolute deadbeats to report on. Those suckers can sure trash stuff. There's probably more dead Ford pickups trashed and dumped in the Chilcotin than anywhere else on earth.

Evan
09-15-2007, 06:25 AM
Hi Jim,

I had a bit more of an inside look at this than most people. I used to service the copiers both in the RCMP detachments and the Band Offices on most of the reserves and knew people on both sides of the fence. While the young perps didn't do jail time usually they could have a problem with the elders on some reserves. One thing that has changed is that some of the reserves are officially "dry". No booze sold at the reserve store, period.

I also enjoyed what I suspect was an unofficial degree of "protection" in running my computer store. I was located two offices away from a local native run agency that tried to prep young people to get a job. They were a customer of mine and I also helped out by being the first stop for the young job seeker trainees to practice thier interview skills. My business was never vandalized or broken into in nearly ten years.

Paul Alciatore
09-15-2007, 05:29 PM
Motion sensors with light won't help either Paul. The cul-de-sac has no lighting and I want it to stay that way. Lights coming on at any of our houses won't alert anybody except the residents and that happens nightly from our year around resident deer population. Our houses are far enough apart and sheltered that nobody can see anyone else's house.

Lights are still good as it enables me to see and the camera as well. The built in IR illuminator isn't nearly powerful enough to illuminate at the range needed.

.....

Interestingly, the best result is also one of the cheapest to operate. A single 50 watt halogen PAR20 floodlamp bulb gave sufficient illumination for the camera to see clearly out to over 100 feet. Halogen lamps are extremely rich in near infrared, the exact spectrum to which the camera is most sensitive. Ordinary incandescent bulbs also generate a lot of infrared but because of their lower color temperature it is skewed to the longer wavelength infrared which isn't as useful for the camera.


Evan,

I don't use the motion activated light to alert anyone except the would-be crooks. I never see mine come on except when I drive home at night. But it has to be somewhat un-nerving to have a light come on in your face as you approach a house or other building with robbery in your mind. I suspect most such individuals would turn around and look for an easier target at that point. Besides, the motion sensor may have also activated a camera/recorder.

As for outdoor lights, the halogen/PARs would have been my first choice for similar reasons to what you say. I have a CF for a portch light on my shop and it is economical but not very good at illuminating the yard. It does attract a lot of moths and other bugs. I wonder if I can get a bug light filter for it. Or perhaps I will hang some fly paper nearby.

Evan
09-16-2007, 01:08 AM
I don't think the lights will deter them. Studies have shown that darkness is most effective in detering criminal activity. They need to see too. If I keep my property brightly lit around the house I won't be able to see them as well as I can if it's dark. They will have to use a flashlight. That's why I am still looking for a suitable IR light source. It's pretty hard to navigate around this place in the dark if you don't know it well. There are numerous hazards, both natural and artificial to trip you up, literally.

I do have a couple of hole cards, especially in the infrared department. :D

The big bulb in this photo is a 500 watt IR lamp. It runs on 117 ac and is the same form factor as a standard large round headlight. It glows dull yellow and puts out enough focused heat to cook with. I think it may have come from a generation 1 system on a battle tank. The other bulb is the only 1000 watt incandescent bulb I have seen.

BTW, this image is a composite to save bandwidth.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/irlamps.jpg

aostling
09-16-2007, 02:07 AM
I wonder if the Tribune [local paper] still runs the court report column from Alexis Creek? Used to be the highlight of the paper, whoever wrote it had a bit of a sense of humor and a cast of absolute deadbeats to report on.

Hearing these place names recalls my two-day trip here in 1993. I was up from Seattle on a long weekend, intent on seeing Chilko Lake. I drove west on Hwy 20 (getting very close to Evan's place, I now realize), turned off at Hanceville, and went to a ghost community called Nemaiah Valley. It consisted of a church and not much else. Only there was I aware that I was on a Reserve.

What tribe lives in the Chilkotin? Does their language still live?

Doc Nickel
09-16-2007, 03:43 AM
Evan- Some military surplus places often have IR filters from or for spotlights. I know Edmund Scientific used to have some, but it's been years since I dealt with them, and I heard a rumor they were getting out of the actual "scientific" stuff they used to carry, and have moved towards the kids toys and gimcracks instead.

But for a while there, I had some old Gen1 Israeli night-vision goggles, that worked fine, but needed an IR light in order to work. I originally ginned up a little illuminator to tape on, using a pair of IR LEDs. Had a decent-sized-room range, and worked fine.

But for more range, I found by blind luck, an IR filter meant for those old military flashlights with the 90-degree head. Too small an OD to properly fit a 4-cell MagLite, so I made a plastic spacer.

That gave me all sorts of range- I'm pretty sure I could see further with the IR filter and goggs than I could without the filter and naked eyes. ('Course, they were amplified, so that makes sense... :D )

I can see a hot bulb being a hazard, so you might look for an IR filter- the Edmunds ones were 8" in diameter, and you could mount them on a pretty skookum spotlight for some hefty range. After making a quick Google check, these guys (http://www.nitevis.com/Filters_Infrared.htm) have 'em up to 6-1/4".

Doc.

Evan
09-16-2007, 10:01 AM
What tribe lives in the Chilkotin? Does their language still live?

The tribes are the Chilcotin Tribes. There are six tribes including the Xeni Gwet'in in Nehemiah. In the language, which not only survives but has an official written form "Chilcotin" is /tsiɬqoxt'in/ "people of the Chilcotin River". The language is still hanging on as a living spoken language in the region but is slowly fading. The elders that speak only /tsiɬqoxt'in/ are dying fast.

Doc,

There is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to IR filters. Exposed and developed color film is a very efficient IR filter and is designed to stand high temperature in slide projectors. That little bit of film you used to get from the leader looks very black but in the near IR band it is as transparent as window glass is to visible. That also applies to certain dyes such as Gentian Violet and the purple dye used in most black markers. You can also use crossed polarizers as they will cut about 95% of visible light but only about 50% of infrared light.

Another way is to relect the beam from a "hot mirror". These are special type of dichroic filter. You can make a simple but inefficient hot mirror with a piece of ordinary float glass set at the Brewster angle for visible light of 56 degrees. That will pass most of the visible spectrum but reflect about 5% visible with 50% IR.

Doc Nickel
09-16-2007, 06:30 PM
There is more than one way to skin a cat when it comes to IR filters.

-Yessir. But I was under the impression you were looking for a long-term, reliable solution, not temporary half-measures.

Film will weather and eventually crack. Dyes have to be applied to something, and will also tend to weather and fade. Large polarizers are rather expensive- at least photographic ones- and cutting half your searchlight power seems to be a self-defeating project.

I don't have any idea what percentage of IR the commercial filters pass, but as I said, I noted rather impressive range out of an undersized filter and a good light- four cell Maglite with a so-called "Xenon" bulb; worth every penny.

But I suppose the question is, do you want visible "searchlight" beams, or INvisible illumination? Both have benefits, though the visible light has more of a deterrent effect, I think.

Doc.

Evan
09-16-2007, 10:59 PM
I disagree about the visible light being a deterrent to somebody actually trying to come in and rip off my place. It serves to put them on notice that we have noticed their presence on the road. But to come in to my place it's a different story. There is no light other than what the sky provides and we don't have street lights either. If the moon isn't out it's blacker than a black cat in a coal mine at midnight. Also, as I said, there is only one narrow practical approach to my house, the driveway. Anybody trying another approach is in for a hard time.

This is what they have to contend with if they don't use the driveway.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/ravine.jpg

It will discourage just about anyone. The entire road frontage of my property is like that, about 400 feet. Also, my property is pie shaped and the road front is the pointy end of the pie with the rest entirely inaccessible.

What constitutes good security for my circumstances isn't necessarily good everywhere and vice versa. There isn't a one size fits all solution.

We have more important things to worry about tonight. Yesterday a bear tore apart a neighbour's storage shed to get at the garbage and last night my Giant Alaskan Malamute was raising a big fuss at about 2 am. The thing about him is he sounds and IS just as big or bigger than most bears. I think I'll put the 12 gauge with the slugs by the door.

HTRN
09-16-2007, 11:13 PM
Evan, if they have to come up your drive, why not something to keep them out, like a swing arm, or a big gate?


If someone wants what you got bad enough, if you shoot them for stealing it? you lost multiple hundreds of thousands of dollars proving yourself innocent in our court system. They treat you just like you killed the mayors son. Before you pull the trigger, make sure it is worth it.

David, ever heard of the Castle Doctrine? It states that if somebody is in your house and poses a threat, you can shoot his ass dead, and be both immune from prosecution, AND CIVIL LAWSUITS.

Here's the Georgia bill (http://www.legis.state.ga.us/legis/2005_06/fulltext/sb396.htm) - note that it was winding it's way through the system in 2005, so I don't know what happened with it.


HTRN

Doc Nickel
09-17-2007, 12:05 AM
Evan, if they have to come up your drive, why not something to keep them out, like a swing arm, or a big gate?

-It's been my impression that gates tend to attract more attention than they deter. IE, there's a locked gate keeping people out of there, therefore there must be something worth locking up in there.

Very generally speaking, of course.

Ditto "Keep Out!" and "No Trespassing!" signs on otherwise-unmarked wooded areas, or otherwise-unmarked roads. The average bloke sees those and thinks "grumpy old man who'll probably shoot at me", the crooked type sees those and thinks "there must be something interesting in there, and better yet, there's probably not many people around to hear/see."


David, ever heard of the Castle Doctrine? It states that if somebody is in your house and poses a threat, you can shoot his ass dead, and be both immune from prosecution, AND CIVIL LAWSUITS.

-Unfortunately, the "immunity" such laws infer can often be easily sidestepped, if not ignored completely, by a competent lawyer. Often all they really need to do is show the guy didn't have a weapon, and therefore wasn't a "threat". (Or that his weapon was poor and limited in comparison to the evil, vicious, bloodthirsty homeowners' .785 MurderMagnum Combat ThugBlaster Special, or that the weapon was still in a pocket, and thus hadn't been used to threaten anybody, ad nauseum.)

Second, even the most ironclad "Castle" law still doesn't give you the clearance to shoot a mere thief. If the crook only broke into, say, Evan's shop and was hauling off a toolbox, he'd have no reason whatsoever to shoot the dude- most places even consider a "warning shot" to be legally akin to assault with a deadly weapon. One can easily imagine Canadian law being even stricter- though thankfully probably not quite as bad as English law.

Doc.

Evan
09-17-2007, 12:37 AM
There is a general principle in English common law that carries through the system when it comes to self defense. It is called "The duty to retreat". If you can back away from the threat safely then you must do so rather than take agressive action. Loss of property isn't considered sufficient justification for maiming or killing someone. If you cannot retreat and are personally threatened then you may defend yourself as best you can in a measured response. This must take into account the threat. If the threat is bare knuckles then shooting the assailant is not considered a measured response.

There is a lot of discretion involved here on the part of the Attorney General (and his representatives) who is the party that actually lays the charges. People are generally misinformed how the system works. The police don't charge anyone with anything. They recommend to the AG that charges be laid but it is up to the AG if they are or not. In most cases a clear instance of self defense or especially defense of another person will not result in charges if the defense does not appear to be an excuse for assault.

However, if you shoot somebody for stealing your car in the driveway you are in deep trouble.

HTRN
09-17-2007, 06:18 AM
Second, even the most ironclad "Castle" law still doesn't give you the clearance to shoot a mere thief. If the crook only broke into, say, Evan's shop and was hauling off a toolbox, he'd have no reason whatsoever to shoot the dude- most places even consider a "warning shot" to be legally akin to assault with a deadly weapon. One can easily imagine Canadian law being even stricter- though thankfully probably not quite as bad as English law.
I never said it did give one permission to execute a thief.

As for getting around it.. on being sued, well it varies in each state which have different versions of the law, but the ones that include barring civil procedings are pretty much absolutes - if it's found to be in self defense, they generally can't sue you, regardless of circumstances. Texas's version of the Castle doctrine reads:
Sec. 83.001. CIVIL IMMUNITY. A defendant who uses force or deadly force that is justified under Chapter 9 Penal Code, is immune from civil liability for personal injury or death that results from the defendant's use of force or deadly force, as applicable.

The problem with "Duty to retreat" is it isn't a definitive line(IE at what point have you satisfied this duty?), and has been twisted by some ambitious DA's to prosecute people that should not have been.

Evan, another idea for you - extend the dog's enclosure to include anything of value, and let him roam free.:)


HTRN

Evan
09-17-2007, 09:05 AM
Gates work pretty well here if they are well constructed. Contrary to what Doc says they aren't taken as an indicator of something of value here but merely that you probably have livestock, which we do from time to time and most people in this valley do. The problem is that they are a pain in the arse and you have to be consistent. If you only close it when you are out then that's a perfect indicator to the perps that the coast is clear, especially if they have been checking you out.

I have been considering just putting up a sign that says "DO NOT FEED THE COUGAR".

jdunmyer
09-17-2007, 07:31 PM
I have been considering just putting up a sign that says "DO NOT FEED THE COUGAR

Evan,
That's actually not a bad idea. Years ago, I read a book authored by a fella who claimed to be the "World's Greatest Burglar". (he was in prison at the time) His best advice was that the homeowner should create uncertainty.

A sign that says something like, "Protected by lasers" or somesuch, probably more scary then than now.

A hand-scrawled sign on the door, "Mr. carpenter, please do not come in to work on the kitchen today. Billy's rattlesnake got out of the cage and we can't find him."

Was it on this board where someone described the "Sensors" that he had cobbled up? Consisted of a battery, 555 timer, and an LED that blinked once every few seconds. He put one in every window so they were visible from outside and was never broken into, even though located in a high-crime area.

Why not put an electric operator on the gate, w/ radio control? It can then always be closed.

Dawai
09-17-2007, 10:25 PM
Radio shack has a blinking led, one component, one part and a battery.

I used to use a LM3909 led flasher, rate depends on capacitance and resistor, mucho easier to set up than a 555... It will flash a led from a volt and half source, it doubles charge in the capacitor.

One of them in a mailbox, a shot glass back in the shadow and away you go. FOr people wanting to flash a larger load? a flashing led in series with the led-opto isolator in a moc3010 triac driver and a large triac will turn on and off large lights or loads.

Doc.. I understand all too well how the "homesteader" laws worked in defense of property and life. I also understand you must have enough money to prove your innocence. Simple manslaughter can cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.

HTRN
09-18-2007, 03:59 AM
I have been considering just putting up a sign that says "DO NOT FEED THE COUGAR".

How about a "Rottweiller crossing" sign?:)


HTRN

Doc Nickel
09-18-2007, 06:42 AM
How about a "Rottweiller crossing" sign?

-The one I saw, years ago when they were all the rage- and had a few notorious maulings in the paper- was "Beware of Pit Bull with AIDS".

On the serious front, a local guy had, for a couple of years, a pair of wolf hybrids, now outlawed much like they tried to do with the pitbulls. They more or less tolerated him as their alpha, and occasionally could actually be very playful, but most of the time, you very much had to mind your P's and Qs around them.

And they did NOT tolerate other people. "Other" meaning "anyone but their alpha".

They weren't barkers... they were growlers and fang-barers. They looked like wolves, acted like wolves, and ate like wolves. They were some seriously scary dogs.

Anyway, he had painted a simple sign; "Do not approach the dogs, they WILL kill you."

He kept the sign for a few years after he had to get rid of the hybrids, and he said no burglar alarm was close to as effective. :D

'Course, he'd also started out with a sign like the old university laser labs, "Do not pet the dog with your remaining hand", but found that people didn't take it seriously, and consequently didn't take the damger of the dogs seriously.

Doc.

Evan
09-18-2007, 08:38 AM
On the serious front, a local guy had, for a couple of years, a pair of wolf hybrids, now outlawed much like they tried to do with the pitbulls.

It would be difficult to outlaw a wolf cross now. Back in the 90's it was determined via DNA analysis that wolves and dogs are the same species. Accordingly, the official designation for the domestic dog was changed to reflect that. The domestic dog is now considered as species Canis Lupus along with the wolf with a subspecies designation of familiaris.

There is a lot of petty politics involved in this. For years the anti wolf faction used the argument that rabies vaccine had not been tested for effectiveness in wolves and because they were officially a different species they were able to ban them on that basis. The discovery that the wolf and the dog are genetically identical eliminated that argument. There simply aren't enough documented cases of wolves attacking people to use that as an excuse so that left the anti-wolf side on shaky ground. Current wolf cross bans could probably be defeated easily if someone wanted to pursue it.

Dawai
09-18-2007, 12:55 PM
I went to post a video of My Butch, a alpha dog.. The video shows him biting the wire jumping six feet straight up, trying to get at Porky, Porky had picked him up when he was young and he peed on himself. He never forgot. He hated him.

He also hated the kids who teased him, draggin boxes behind their bicycles, sticks up and down the chainlink. I threatened to stomp the father while talking to him in his yard about his kids. Butch became too dangerous and hated children in general.

Like all my other stupid acting friends I tried to tolerate him and his behavior. When he got out and like Cujo had a family trapped in their jeep, he had to go. He had already growled at my grandkids. I miss butch, I still cry, he loved my wife and I, hated the rest of the world. Lex (new dog) is his polar opposite, he has learned to hate skateboarders thou.

Animals are a liability. Some breeds cause you to lose a court case before you get to court, the media judges you. Working all your life to give it over in a court case is not desirable.

The court has gotten stupid, a 20 year old broke into a friends building, got hurt, sued him and won 3/4 million. The building was on a spot where a stadium wants the land for a parking lot.

Scishopguy
09-18-2007, 04:31 PM
I just had a breakin at my shop in Arkansas. As it turned out the dirtbag was in the place when we backed down the drive and he fled out the back door. I had an old iron jamb safe that had been given to me. It was empty but the door was closed and he had to get into it. He spent all his time destroying the safe and didn't take anything of much interest. He did get my blue collar comedy tour dvd's. :( I did a lot of looking around and talking to folks nearby and they agreed that a "game cam" is the answer. They make self contained models with infrared illuminators, motion sensors, and 0 lux lenses.
The only trouble is finding a place where they won't steal the cam too. A friend came up with the perfect place.....a bird house! Put it outside and aim it at the building. The cop that came for my call said that if I could get a picture of them he could probably find them. He just busted a guy that way and sent him down to pine bluff (State Pen) for some "man love." Works for me!!!

Dawai
09-18-2007, 04:56 PM
I sent three dvd's of dope deals off my camera system to the Local sheriffs office, I watch the people drive down the road daily.

Once they learned there was a camera that picked up their driveway they moved off within a week.

They don't want the dope heads in jail or prison, it would be a nightmare taking care of all their medical needs. Besides having to replace all your stuff is good for the economy, good for politics, They can say they need more police, more government to protect you, and you as the victim will nod your head and agree.

Evan
09-18-2007, 05:18 PM
When we first moved in here in the 80's there were some dope dealers living in a house out across the road a way, not that far. The traffic on the hill was pretty bad each night but the cops could never find anything. I got pretty pissed as our kids were still at home so I began to go outside at night and randomly fire a couple of 12 gauge #6 birdshot rounds in the air. I would aim it high over the trees their way so hopefully the shot would rain down on them. They moved out pretty soon after I started that.

Turns out they kept the stash in a buried sewer pipe in the garden with fish fertilizer all around to distract the dogs.

aostling
09-18-2007, 11:16 PM
I would aim it high over the trees their way so hopefully the shot would rain down on them.

Weren't you tempted to build a mangonel or a trebuchet? You could have hurled a moose carcass their way. http://www.trebuchet.com/ .

Evan, I expect you have made a siege engine, sometime during your earlier life.

Evan
09-18-2007, 11:41 PM
Evan, I expect you have made a siege engine, sometime during your earlier life.
Not yet but it is certainly on the list. Right now I want to build a trial model of an aeolian harp (BIG) with a solar powered FM radio transmitter and pickup so I can listen to it whenever the breeze is blowing. This has been in the planning stage for years.

BTW, the trebuchet has the singular distinction of being the longest used field artillery piece of any type. It saw nearly 1000 years of continuous use. It was the tactical nuke of it's day and had a huge influence on the construction of fortifications.

HTRN
09-19-2007, 06:12 AM
It would be difficult to outlaw a wolf cross now. Back in the 90's it was determined via DNA analysis that wolves and dogs are the same species.

What you neglected to mention was that they're significantly different genetically from each other, even though they can still interbreed. 60K years of selective breeding will do that.:)


HTRN

Evan
09-19-2007, 08:26 AM
What you neglected to mention was that they're significantly different genetically from each other, even though they can still interbreed. 60K years of selective breeding will do that

Not really. The differences caused by selective breeding are tiny. Even the difference between humans and the greats apes is only a total of perhaps 2 or 3% of the total DNA. To make a dachshund from a wolf only involves a very few modifications.

Genetic testing is extremely sensitive when used in a comparative fashion. You can compare two samples and definitively say "they don't match", if in fact they don't. What you cannot do without a comparison is to say "this is your DNA".

This is the same with dogs and wolves. Given two samples, one from a dog of any breed and one from a wolf, there is no way to say which is which without a direct comparison to a third sample that is related to either one. Genetic sequencing has shown that the dog and wolf genomes are the same, they have the same genes in the same places. The only thing that varies is what genes are expressed and to what extent. This means that the genomes are identical with only the normal variations expected within a species. They are therefore the same species.

An interesting thing was discovered a few years ago. The degree and length of time that a dog breed has been domesticated can be reliably determined by two things; variegation of the coat and curl of the tail. The more a dog has a multi-color coat and the greater and tighter the curl of the tail the longer it has been domesticated. This is demonstrated by my own dog. She is a Karelian Bear dog and she has a very well defined patterned coat in black and white. The KBDs exhibit quite a variety of different patterns and colors. They also have tightly curled tails. This is in keeping with the recent discovery as the KBD's have been domesticated as a distinct breed for over 1000 years.

The point of this though is that these characteristics are very superficial. In nearly all cases the changes that occur via selective breeding are a case of merely allowing recessive genes to be expressed by culling animals with dominant genes that don't express the desired characteristic. However, without in depth genetic comparisons it's impossible to completely eliminate the dominant genes from the bloodlines. It means that without constant intervention by selective breeding a random group of dogs allowed to breed at will will quickly revert to the stereotype which closely resembles the ancient dogs from which they and the wolves are descended.