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Evan
09-17-2007, 12:04 PM
First, this has absolutely nothing to do with machining.

I have a new project underway which will take at least a year to complete. I have a strong interest in photography, especially astrophotography. In particular I am interested in photographing those things that are either barely visible to the unaided eye or would be if our eyes were more sensitive. In this video I have expanded that concept to the time dimension. This is only the first of a series that I will be doing over the next year. This video doesn't deal with the sky directly but is a sort of "proof of concept" test for my new camera.

The video is a large download, about 13 megs for the WMV Windows version and a little more for the MP4. The WMV version is the better of the two with slightly better clarity and resolution.

I could not make the files smaller and still maintain any of the quality necessary to appreciate the content. This video was "shot" at extremely high resolution, about 6 megapixels per frame at 30 frames per second. The full resolution version is higher resolution than HDTV and requires 400 megabytes for a 1 minute 40 second video.

I have some more to say but I would like to see how this is received first. I took it over to some neighbours last night and they couldn't stop watching it.

Please don't just click on the link. My server can't keep up with that demand and it won't play cleanly. Use the right mouse button and select "save as" to download it to your computer. Then you can watch it using Media Player or your favorite viewer. It is best watched at native resolution which is DVD level of 720 x 480 pixels (meaning to watch it at 100% size instead of full screen).

Windows Version:

MPEG 4 encoding


I have removed the links as my server is getting hammered. Sorry.

Your Old Dog
09-17-2007, 01:20 PM
I think it's pretty damn cool. Did you do this last week when mother earth was experiencing Ground Hog Day? :D

I thought I saw Sasquatch about 2/3ds of the way in. Was that you or someone else? I'm talking about the area in the upper right quadrangle.

Evan
09-17-2007, 01:45 PM
I did that on Saturday. It was one of the finest days of the summer with nary a wisp of cloud all day to interfere with the pics and shadows.

What you saw is, as best as I can determine, the neighbour's dog.

sch
09-17-2007, 03:54 PM
Very nice work, next time I will have to turn the speakers on
didn't realize there was a sound track. Definition was impressive.

tattoomike68
09-17-2007, 05:31 PM
Thats a cool video, its amazing what you can come up with after smoking a big fat joint of killer canadian green bud. :D :cool:

lenord
09-17-2007, 05:52 PM
Evan,

Can you put the vid on a commercial server or some such. I can't get a connection to yours...I found one for free a while back..

Thx
Lenord

Mcruff
09-17-2007, 05:57 PM
I'm also having problems connecting to your server!!

Evan
09-17-2007, 08:41 PM
The server is running again. My fault. I was messing around putting another server online and made a mistake in the firewall setup. It's fixed now.


Definition was impressive.

You think that's good you should see the original file before it is smushed down for net use. It is startling to look at as the resolution is better than any video I have seen in any form before. It looks like you are looking at a clip of reality seen through a small window. I wish I couold distribute that but at 400 megs there is no way. Maybe tonight I'll make up a very short fragment at full resolution and put on a link to it.

mochinist
09-17-2007, 09:02 PM
The server is running again. My fault. I was messing around putting another server online and made a mistake in the firewall setup. It's fixed now.



You think that's good you should see the original file before it is smushed down for net use. It is startling to look at as the resolution is better than any video I have seen in any form before. It looks like you are looking at a clip of reality seen through a small window. I wish I couold distribute that but at 400 megs there is no way. Maybe tonight I'll make up a very short fragment at full resolution and put on a link to it.I've used this site before, never for a file that big, but it says you can upload up to 500meg http://www.megaupload.com/

Evan
09-17-2007, 09:35 PM
Unfortunately that isn't an option, at least not tonight. The upload speed on my satellite connection is severely restricted to no more than two times dialup. Even from my ADSL connection in town it would take a while. It also takes a pretty powerful computer to display that much data without staggering. I'll make up a hi res piece after supper, maybe ten seconds worth so you can get an idea. I have just the thing too. :D

cybor462
09-17-2007, 10:51 PM
Evan..real nice.I have to ask what type of camera are you using. Is it time lapse?
I have played with video editing for years. Not very good and always using cheap flawed software.
When I did analog stuff (linear) I used outdated Videonics stuff and home vcr's never studio quality stuff. I now use Pinnacle which again is low budget stuff but I have thousands into it.

My guess is your either using time lapse or shooting live and slowing it down with a time lapse module.

I would love to hear how you are doing it.
Real cool stuff.

Evan
09-17-2007, 11:57 PM
I just bought another digital camera. I wanted something that can do 640 x 480 VGA at 30 fps video. As a bonus it has a time lapse mode. That video was shot starting at dawn and ran out of memory about 15 minutes before sunset. :(

The camera is a relatively cheap camera sold by General Electric, the GE A830. It's an 8mp camera with some nice features that I picked up for $160. It is really made by Fuji and is in the Fuji Finepix series. I recommend it.

I can also do the same with my Canon Rebel but the shutter on the Rebel has a quite limited life of around 50,000 actuations. Time lapse photography is a good way to use that up in a hurry.

The video is a total of almost 2000 16/9 format six megapixel images. I then down sample them and convert them to an uncompressed AVI animation file. Then I load them into movie maker and start editing, adding titles and transitions as well as sound. The sound track is from a guy named Justin R. Durban. He produces music for hollywood and the game studios. He also makes available a lot of his work free to use as long as it is non profit and you give him credit, as I have. I also edited the sound track subtlely to make it the right length and to align with the video.

MS Movie Maker 2 is a pretty good piece of software. It's easy to use and reasonably capable too. I have used Adobe Premier and it is a ridiculous pain to figure out.

Evan
09-18-2007, 12:03 AM
Here is a hi res 4 second clip from the video. It's about 2.5 megabytes so not too bad even on dialup. The resolution is set at 1280 x 800, the same as my wide screen laptop. It can be set higher as the original frames are 3264 x 1836 pixels. That would be of no use as there aren't any monitors that can display it.

Run the clip in full screen mode and let the mouse hover on the screen so it will withdraw the borders. You will see what I mean.

Link removed

BadDog
09-18-2007, 12:10 AM
Very nice Evan, I particularly liked the beginning. I was coming down from Prescott Valley Sunday, down from Sunset Point at Sunset; oh how I would love to have a video of THAT light show. <sigh> But I had to drive and, on that twisty road with steep sides, traffic running ~80, I could only grab a glance here and there...

aostling
09-18-2007, 01:07 AM
Run the clip in full screen mode and let the mouse hover on the screen so it will withdraw the borders. You will see what I mean.


Evan,

The frames show a lot of pixelation on my Apple Cinema Display. It's not subtle, so I can't square this with what you are describing. I reduced the native resolution from 1680x1050 to 1280x800 to play your 4-second clip, but the problem remains.

But technical problems aside, when I played your video I was immediately reminded of Koyaanisqatsi http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0085809/ . I like your music even better than Phillip Glass's.

gmatov
09-18-2007, 01:16 AM
Evan,

It might be asking much to make the uncompressed file available. 400 Meg is not all that big on cable.

Nor is that too much to DL to the storage I have on my machines. Less than a CD.

Cheers,

George

gmatov
09-18-2007, 01:21 AM
Evan,

Clicked on the clip, DL'd, Media player sent request for codec, wouldn't play.

What codec do I need?

Cheers,

George

Evan
09-18-2007, 01:31 AM
Alan,

You can't get away with changing the resolution of the display. LCD displays only work correctly at their own native resolution.
The only way to display the clip correctly is for it to display at it's native resolution matched to the display. Second best is to up sample it to fill the full screen.

Another possible issue is the MPEG codec you are using. How these clips are coded and decoded is not set in stone. Choices are made that favor certain types of videos and if you are using the wrong one problems occur. I encoded that with the DivX 5.2.1 fast motion codec with precompensation because the scene is constantly changing throughout. If the decoder makes the wrong assumptions then the result can be seriously degraded.



Another fan of Phillip Glass, eh? I am going to haul out my keyboard and compose my own. The music I used was merely a handy expedient. For this sort off thing I don't need to rely on my seized up fingers. I can program the track and let the computer play it.

Evan
09-18-2007, 01:34 AM
Here you are George.

http://www.free-codecs.com/download/Codec_Pack_All_in_1.htm


It might be asking much to make the uncompressed file available. 400 Meg is not all that big on cable.

I don't have cable.

aostling
09-18-2007, 02:39 AM
Another fan of Phillip Glass, eh? I am going to haul out my keyboard and compose my own. The music I used was merely a handy expedient. For this sort off thing I don't need to rely on my seized up fingers. I can program the track and let the computer play it.

You are a man of amazingly wide talents!

I realize that I should not have described the effect I was seeing as "pixelation." It was actually posterization. But these technical difficulties will be overcome, and I look forward to seeing much more of this project.

Evan
09-18-2007, 08:02 AM
Allan,

Here is a clip sized to fit your screen. I am curious how it looks. Posterization is probably an artifact of the compression/decompression routine and upsampling the image will make it even more obvious.


2.6 MB

Link removed

(http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/Movie_0002.avi)

lbender
09-18-2007, 09:43 AM
Evan,

I watched the video, very impressive, especially the fades and titling.

A question though. Do you have a method for going from stills to WMV without a AVI step? Movie maker can, but the maximum frame rate is eight frames per second, I'm looking for a minimum of 30.

Good luck on your video project.

Evan
09-18-2007, 11:05 AM
Do you have a method for going from stills to WMV without a AVI step?

Not directly. I use the Antechinus Animator v5.5 (formerly Platypus Animator). It's free here:

http://www.freedownloadscenter.com/Multimedia_and_Graphics/Video_and_Animation_Tools/Platypus_Animator.html

It can create AVI's including uncompressed. You can then use the excellent free program SUPER to convert to/from anything you like.

http://www.erightsoft.com/SUPER.html#Dnload

You don't need to download any codecs for SUPER, it has all of them built in including WMV.


BTW, I found the animal in question in the raw frames. It's a deer.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/deer1.jpg

aostling
09-18-2007, 01:12 PM
Allan,

Here is a clip sized to fit your screen. I am curious how it looks. Posterization is probably an artifact of the compression/decompression routine and upsampling the image will make it even more obvious.


Evan,

If anything this clip shows even more posterization. It's especially visible in the trunks of the trees, but it degrades the entire image drastically.

[edit] I can send a .png screen grab to illustrate this, but I'm not sure how to attach the file and get it to you.

Evan
09-18-2007, 01:30 PM
Send it to my e-mail address in my profile. Don't use the e-mail link as that addresss is no longer active. I will check it later today.

lbender
09-18-2007, 03:07 PM
Evan,

Thank you for the links.

Evan
09-18-2007, 03:20 PM
Be careful with the uncompressed mode in the Antechinus Animator. I tried converting 100 six megapixel frames to an uncompressed AVI and it generated a FOUR GIGABYTE FILE!!! :eek:

lbender
09-18-2007, 06:13 PM
That was the point of going directly from a JPEG or similar directly to a WMV file without the AVI intermediary. AVI files are disc hogs. BTW, I have heard that some software has access problems when the AVI file exceeds 2 gigabytes.

tattoomike68
09-18-2007, 06:40 PM
Upload to youtube and let it be compressed with flash, they have it down to a science. It also takes all the load off your server.

Evan
09-18-2007, 07:56 PM
I tried compressing it with flash and it looks like total crap. I won't let them mangle it like that. Flash really dumbs it down.


I have heard that some software has access problems when the AVI file exceeds 2 gigabytes.

Windows 98 and ME can only read/write files up to two gigabytes under the FAT 32 file system. To go bigger than that you have to be running Win 2000 or higher and use the NT file system.

Evan
09-18-2007, 10:11 PM
Allan,

I have the file and have been studying it. Thanks for sending it as it has alerted me to a problem that I hadn't thought of. The second file I posted is higher resolution but you are right, the quality is worse.

What is happening is that the larger file requires a faster data rate and the increase is exponential with area. Just to stay even with the areal compression quality the data rate must go up as the square of the x/y dimensions, naturally. This however isn't possible for arbitrarily large files as the bandwidth available is limited. Depending on a number of factors there will be a resolution "sweet spot" over which the visual quality of the image will actually deteriorate even though the putative number of pixels goes up.
.

Evan
09-19-2007, 12:57 PM
OK, I spent quite a while figuring out what works best within the existing limitations. I can now get excellent quality at HDTV resolution, 1080 x 720 Progressive. This video is a bandwidth hog because of the constant change and the high density of details in motion. It makes a good test for the codecs. I have had the best results so far now with the DivX codec as it gives much more control over the process than Microsoft, for instance.

I recorded another short clip in HDTV res. It is 11.8 megabytes. As usual, there is no free lunch. To reach the optimum quality at HDTV
resolution I had to max out some of the settings. I expect that is no coincidence.

It also tells me that the current consumer grade technology can't handle the resolution that I can produce with other related consumer grade technology. Also not surprising since the marketing of digital cameras is heavily weighted toward the MEGAPIXELS, whatever they are Martha. Lots is good so more is better, right? Especially if they are "enhanced" pixels, meaning interpolated "fake" resolution.

Link removed
(http://vts.bc.ca./pics2/hdtvtest.avi)

aostling
09-19-2007, 02:26 PM
OK, I spent quite a while figuring out what works best within the existing limitations.

This looks really good. I see no posterization now. Looking forward to a version with your Williams Lake Overture as background music.