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eXoticforms
05-09-2003, 09:43 AM
Looking for someone that has experience welding copper. I want to weld 1/8" and 3/16" pieces of plate together. For the most part the plates will be 6" square or so. I want to use my 110v Miller 135 to do the job, as this will be an onsite build with no 220 available. I have found deoxidized mig wire. I have never welded copper with any machine though. So, the questions. Do you think that the 135 can make enough heat to weld? and what gas mix have you used? + any other pertnant suggestions are appreciated. Thanks, JL

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www.exoticforms.com (http://www.exoticforms.com)

DR
05-09-2003, 10:54 AM
I've TIG welded thin copper without a filler rod. Worked fine. More experienced welders have told me it's takes fairly high amperage to weld thicker material because of it's rapid heat transfer.

Sounds like you're suggesting welding the copper with a MIG. What filler wire would you use?

eXoticforms
05-09-2003, 11:00 AM
I assume that I would use the deozidized .030 copper filler through the MIG 135....

Rotate
05-09-2003, 11:07 AM
Why not braze it using bronze rod? It should be just as strong, if not stronger.

Albert

eXoticforms
05-09-2003, 11:23 AM
I am asking a specific question able WELDING copper. No brazing, riviting, glueing, taping, chewing gum or the like! If you don't know, you don't know....

Rotate
05-09-2003, 11:51 AM
Gee, take it easy guy. This is not a paid service where you get exactly the answer that you're looking for. If you don't like the answers or follow up comments, then the back button is only a click away. Your rather disparaging response is unwarranted.

Albert




[This message has been edited by Rotate (edited 05-09-2003).]

eXoticforms
05-09-2003, 11:56 AM
Sorry, didn't mean to offend. I am just looking to suggestions or answers to the *question asked*. I respect everyone's experience and opinion.

Al Messer
05-09-2003, 12:04 PM
Why does it have to be "welded" as opposed to "brazed" or "Silver soldered" together?

Rotate
05-09-2003, 12:10 PM
Sorry Al, I beat you to it and got flamed (pun intended http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif )

Dr. Rob
05-09-2003, 01:00 PM
Same as DR...I've TIGged it. To the best of my knowledge, Argon and only Argon can be used as shield gas for arc welding copper. Right about the heat transfer thing too...Really, by the time you start getting decent welds, the whole area needs to be like red-hot. If it was a big piece, I'd even consider preheating.

All that heat has the side effect of scale, warpage, and softening.

Don't know about MIG or filler wire. Don't know about voltages. All that heat needs some amps, but once the heat is in there...?

Don't know what you're building, but maybe you could braze, rivet, glue, tape AND gum chew it together...
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Edit: PS- Forgot to say, it welds very nicely. Smooth, manageable puddle, no pores...nice.

[This message has been edited by Dr. Rob (edited 05-09-2003).]

docsteve66
05-09-2003, 04:37 PM
eXoticforms: your original question- the one where you want no non-applicable information- asks if it can be done with a "110v Miller 135". I think you don't have the heat needed. maybe, if you insulated a large enough area, you can retain enough heat to make the weld. By weld, I assume you mean WELD- good penetration etc. Since the welder, in my opinion, won't do the job, there is no need to discuss gases.
Steve

eXoticforms
05-09-2003, 04:48 PM
Thanks Steve, based on what I have read I don't think it will work either and don't want to buy the supplies if the consensus is that the little mig can't muster up enough heat. I may just have to rent a generator/tig machine. Any other comments appreciated. Other wise I just let everyone know what happens in the end! Thanks to all.

Dave Opincarne
05-09-2003, 09:22 PM
Hmm lets see here...

1st post on this board is to tell someone their idea won't work and suggest an alternative he hapens to sell.

Second post is a request for help without providing any information about the application but does say "any other pertnant suggestions are appreciated".

By his fourth post he's managed to offend someone who offered up some options in an effort to help.

While he's obviously not a troll, I'm going to be carerful about offering any advice to this guy until I see a little more character. Sincerly hope to see it.

-Dave

Al Messer
05-09-2003, 09:51 PM
Copper sculpture?

Bill Neufeld
05-09-2003, 10:02 PM
Exotic;
I know that you stated it is a field build; but have you considered taking your project to a company that has an electron beam welder?

bspooh
05-09-2003, 10:06 PM
Rotate----I always look forward to your replies...keep it up http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

brent

SJorgensen
05-09-2003, 11:51 PM
Dave,
I got the same impression. I've noticed that those rare people (many of who are on this site) who have the most to share are the most humble, and the last to rebuke anyone who might chime in. Others are spending too much of their time defending their methods (because someone else is paying for them.) so they don't want to hear any opposing viewpoints and they can get offended or edgy. Maybe they just can't handle reading through a message or two that isn't pertinent to their point of view. In the end they may find out why soldering copper makes the most sense in most applications and why knowing the application is the most important part of the recommendation process.
I hope that whatever he learns in the process, he will come back and share with others. Maybe he will pick up a little humility in the process. I think the best experts are not the ones who have been taught everything, but the ones who have screwed up in almost every conceivable way. Now THAT is what I call experience! (I’d hate to brag about how much of that I have accumulated but it is considerable!)

Spence

Dave Opincarne
05-10-2003, 12:26 AM
Well said Spence. Reminds me of a quote: "While experience teaches fools, it does not necessarily follow that the fools are getting any smarter"

Too bad too, could have lead to an interesting discusion of the use of thermite welding for copper. (Yes, it is done)

-Dave (Let us retract the foreskin of ignorence and apply the wire brush of knowlege)

lightswitch
05-10-2003, 12:37 AM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by Dave Opincarne:

By his fourth post he's managed to offend someone who offered up some options in an effort to help.
</font>

I THINK hes from New York, which would explain it, & in that case its not his fault they are all like that.

Thrud
05-10-2003, 12:41 AM
Albert
What you said. Who ever heard of MIG welding copper - and with a piddly 135 amps no less... http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

exoticforms
Get a 1000A watercooled TIG or forget it. (And I have welded copper.) The only ohter workable way of joining them is a) bolting, or 2) Silversolder/braze.

Actually I lied - submerged arc, electron beam, and laser welding also work.

Dave Opincarne
05-10-2003, 12:55 AM
Well lets show him how this is supposed to work and what can happen when we're allowed to kick around some ideas:

Thrud, could a plasma cutter/welder be used to keyhole weld. The heat is certainly there, but how many amps would be needed? If the heat was higher wouldn't less overall amperage be required?

Can copper be hammer welded in any way? Anybody know how pans are re-copperd?

-Dave

SJorgensen
05-10-2003, 02:25 AM
I guess the point is that if you have a process question, then you should poise the question. People who have years and years of experience in multiple production lines just might respond.

SJorgensen
05-10-2003, 02:29 AM
Dave,
I like that quote. Who said it?
Spence

Jaymo
05-10-2003, 02:50 AM
Dave-Wire brush? Now that's an aggressive cleaning method.

Spence- I like your definition of expert. Mainly because I've screwed up enough to cause me to be overqualified. :&lt; ))

KACHINKOO
05-10-2003, 07:32 AM
Dave, In 1987 I was involved with a racing sailboat that we sprayed copper on the bottom. The apperatus looked half between an alum. spool gun and an ox-acc torch. The .032 copper wire came out the gun and into the flame then onto the hull that had a special primer already applied. Had to keep moving as not to build up to much heat and we had to sand it smooth to remove the orange peel. A lot of work but the end result was worth the effort for anti-fouling. Was told then that it was a new process gaining popularity in the comercial marine industry, but I haven't herd much about it since. Dave

eXoticforms
05-10-2003, 12:42 PM
OK, I got the point. I'll hit the road.

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www.exoticforms.com (http://www.exoticforms.com)

eXoticforms
05-10-2003, 01:06 PM
O, and DAVE, just a little clarification. I was not trying to sell anything. Simply offering up a solution that I would be happy to go out of my way to provide to someone very quickly if necessary. I'm not in the retail business. And secondly, I was really trying to make an effort to ask a specific question that would generate answers to that question and not 40 replies to some other topic. I am a professional as well and have quite a little experience of my own. I think maybe you have an issue with me and I am not sure why. I am actually a bit disappointed that you all banded together to send me down the road and regret that I made you feel so intimidated or rushed or what ever it is that you don't like.

Well boys, Lunch is over, I'm off to work!


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www.exoticforms.com (http://www.exoticforms.com)

bspooh
05-10-2003, 01:16 PM
Hey exoticform: Stick around.......

brent

mikem
05-10-2003, 02:36 PM
Dear Mr. exoticform:
What rubbed some(maybe most) the wrong way was asking for advice and then criticizing the freely offered advice. I think that if you hang around here a while, you will find the guys to be more than generous with their tech support and humor. It is not that taxing to discard the references to our wives(or sister's) cooking, beer preferences and boss' ineptitude in the our sometimes futile attempts to lighten our otherwise mundane existence.

Hang around, and I think that you will get to know and like these guys. I am sure that the group will overlook your rookie impatience and will welcome you with open arms in time. Lets just forget the friction and move on to happier topics. What do you think? Your friend--Mike.

Dave Opincarne
05-10-2003, 02:41 PM
Ditto, stick around. You're as welcome as anybody else, we're all just guests here. I wasn't suggesting that you're first post was schilling, my point is that in the short time you've been here my impresion of your online persona hasn't been very impresive and does not encourage me to want to help you out. On the other hand the work on your website is quite impresive and I would like to see a greater presence of people involved in decorative metalwork.

This is a commmunity, one in which we are all here by consent to share and support a common interest. Starting a thread and seeking a *specific answer* while trying to limit the responses is rather selfish in my opinion. Some of the best information on this sight (and many others) comes from kicking ideas around seeing what someone comes up with. If you'd allow us to make some suggestions and then engage in some give and take with the board we might be able to come up with a method that would work for you. Even if we weren't others might benifit. That's what makes this a community and why I think trying to restrict responses is selfish.

So please, consider sticking around, but give us a chance to work as a community.

-Dave

Dave Opincarne
05-10-2003, 03:14 PM
John, I don't have a problem with you other than snaping at a respected member of the board who tried to help you. No one is banding together or trying to send you down the road. From my perspective you've arived at a nice get together at someone's shop where we're all enjoying ourselves, spinning yarns and offering advice on each others projects and demanded to be heard and then gotten a little unpleasent when someone said "have you thought about trying...". Of course you're welcome here, but just like at a social gathering (which this is) how you present yourself is going to determine how people respond to you.

Spence, I don't know where those quotes came from. I heard them a number of years ago and commited them to memory.

Dave Opincarne
05-10-2003, 03:27 PM
Kachinkoo, now that's what I call an anti-fouling paint. The aerospace company I used to work for flame sprayed aluminum onto molds before laying up parts to produce a composite part with an aluminium skin.

But I know that pans got copper skin before flame spraying. I've heard profesional cooks talk about sending their cookware out to have this done and how in the 'old days' it was very common. I also recal a post in r.c.m many years ago about a traditional Korean method of fusing metal with heat and pressure (decorative). So other than melting and casting copper, how can one deal with copper's ability to disapate heat without using high tech methods?

Stepside
05-10-2003, 03:39 PM
A quick question. I have used TIG to weld copper. I used #14 houshold wire for filler rod. It came out beautiful. Then--Everyone I mentioned it to said that the fumes were extremly dangerous. Were they pulling my leg or are the fumes hazardous?

Al Messer
05-10-2003, 04:45 PM
I'm still curious as all get out as to why it must be welded instead of Silver brazed. If I wanted to join plates like he mentioned,I would reach for the torch and some Phos-copper rods as I am the lazy sort and Phos-copper is self fluxing---on Copper.

WJHartson
05-10-2003, 10:59 PM
The copper plate in question can not be welded with the machine quoted. It does not have enough amperage. You would also need to have something like a block of carbon to backup the area of the weld. My guess on amperage would be in the 400 to 500 amp range to weld the 3/8 plate. Wear a respirator and have good ventilation. You will get very sick with long term consequences if you breath the fumes. The attack you liver.

Copper welding is extremely difficult due to the heat required and is also dangerious without the proper ventilation because berillium amoung other gases are released during the welding process.

The company I worked for did a lot of copper to copper welding and copper to aluminum welding. In the aluminum business on sodeburg pot all of the current flows through what are called flexes. The flexes are solid 1" copper bars about 4" wide and have 8 to 10 leaves of copper welded to the end of the copper bar on each side. An automatic machine was developed to TIG weld these flexable in our machine shop.
The amperage on the machine was either 1000 or 1200 amps. There was an automatic filler wire feeder and the gas was argon. The torch was water cooled. The welds were not real pretty but the were strong and conductivity was good.

Some of the connections were aluminum to copper. The copper was tinned with silver solder an then it was welded using MIG. The amperage on the machines were 600 amps and multiple passes were made all the way around the joint. The joints were not real strong but the conductivity was good in most cases.

We also used some bonded aluminum to copper pieces of plate to make copper to aluminum joints by welding to them. Heat control was critical or the mechanical bond between the copper and aluminum would break down.

Sorry for the long post.

Joe

SJorgensen
05-11-2003, 12:43 AM
The requester is building artsy fartsy lamps to be sold in a New York high end scene. I wish him luck in convincing buyers that he is creating some "added value" because he didn't solder it. Obviously there are no structural or technical imperitives here. I didn't mean to drive him off or offend him but if you ask for free advise you shouldn't stomp on what you get. The guy is from Colorado and not New York, although that is where he lives now. Maybe he forgot how to slow down to our pace, and give a little slack. You don't find much slack in New York.
I hope that he is very successful and I would enjoy it if he could share his marketing experiences with us. If I haven't worn out my welcome I don't know why he should think that he has (of course there are many opinions where it relates to me!)
Spence
Spence

Thrud
05-11-2003, 03:16 AM
dave

The only way it can be welded is plasma or the exotic methods noted. WJHartson covered most of the bases so I won't repeat what has been already stated. Copper can be toxic and precuations must be taken.

Old copper pots for cooking have been know to cause heavy metal poisoning in humans, yet they still use them to make merangue for pies.

Exoticforms
I am with Brent, don't leave because they jumped on your terse reply. As Albert has stated the help is free, so if you are offended by questions or off-topic posts it would be best to say nothing than lash out. We are all willing to help and everyone has something to contribute. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

Peace & Grace
The 450Lb. Gorilla

yf
05-11-2003, 04:58 AM
exoticforms
What sort of joint are you making?
Lap, butt, tee, etc.?
If you can get by with a lap joint (even by redesigning) you can use a portable resistance spotwelder.
They are relatively cheap and can be had in 110 volt.

Also can you say why you are only considering welding?
There are many easier options.

eXoticforms
05-11-2003, 10:59 AM
I don't appreciate your very personal and disparaging remarks SPECE and you can kiss my ass. It's great that you know more about me than I will every know about you. Thanks for the hit to my web site. Why don't we compare W2's for last year and the $ invested in business and equipment. I'm quite sure you wont measure up. I am also quite sure that you don't know as much you'd like people to think and your worthless reply's prove that.

I greatly appreciate the kind and encouraging comments from many other members even after I may have been an ass. I think some understand the benefit of a question and answer environment.

A big thanks to Joe for a very informative reply.

And in case you missed it the first time SPENCEY, kiss my ass.


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www.exoticforms.com (http://www.exoticforms.com)

eXoticforms
05-11-2003, 11:35 AM
By the way, based on reading, making visits to big shops here in Brooklyn, and some great feedback in the middle of this whole mess of a topic I created, the copper plate joining for the sculpture is going back to the drawing board.
This will be an especially meaningful job for me because it is going to grace the garden of a great lady who lost her husband on 9/11. She has two small children as do I.

I'm sure you won't understand Spency, you're probably pretty isolated, lonely, and lack any creativity or drive what so ever.

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www.exoticforms.com (http://www.exoticforms.com)

Dave Opincarne
05-11-2003, 11:44 AM
Forget everything I said, GO AWAY, your still acting like an ass!

BTW, What do you think the Home in Home Shop Machinist stands for? This isn't a place to compare incomes.Many of us are pros but what brings us together here is a passion for working with our head, hearts, and hands, not how much money we can make. In that regard Spence has my respect. You sir do not. If you just want a plain and simple straight forward answer then just call your local welding rep and be done with it!

Dave Opincarne
05-11-2003, 11:45 AM
Double Post

[This message has been edited by Dave Opincarne (edited 05-11-2003).]

eXoticforms
05-11-2003, 11:53 AM
ok, all wise DAVE, has an answer for everything and nothing in the same sentense DAVE. Just mind your business, how bout that?

3jaw
05-11-2003, 12:07 PM
Exoticforms,

Let's see, that's 3 people you have p*ssed off and alienated why not add another, me! Hey, I've got an idea, why not go for broke and make all of us mad and then blow away like a beer fart!

If you don't want advice, then don't ask.

I apologize to all of the members of this board for fueling this guy's fire, but this sort of thing irritates me.

Rant off.

Greg

mikem
05-11-2003, 12:08 PM
I would say that w-2's are a poor way to judge character or human value. Lots of guys who make millions are AH's and some of them are very generous. I don't know what you make but whatever it is, I'll bet you fall in the middle somewhere here on our board. Still, it is no excuse for being a pain. If you are that successful, you could afford to hire someone to do your welding that has done it before rather than ask a non-profit group for free advice and then get snippy when we don't answer the way you want.

Personal attacks are uncalled for on all sides but I would say that you fired the first shot. In any case I wish you well and when you can control yourself, come back and visit us again.--Mike.

eXoticforms
05-11-2003, 12:17 PM
you know what it is? it's a reflection of working very hard to make good quality unique things, not a measure of character. If anyone is pissed of, it's because they want to be. And Mike I had made no personal judgments about anyone, except for Spency, who labeled me. As far as leaving the board, I have decided against it. I will continue to participate and post new topics often. I think there are quite a few people that will enjoy collaborating and if your aren't one of those people, you are free to not post a reply. Hugs and kisses... JL

mikem
05-11-2003, 01:48 PM
Lots of people work very hard--some make lots of dough, some minimum wage. Some work hard on a project that never works out and never are a financial success.(Tesla, for one.) There is an element of luck to go with anyone's success. This board has MD's, PhD's, Retired military men, engineers and even musicians like me. Some are rich, some can't even afford to buy a $15 Gingery book.

When you got several suggestions to connect the copper that didn't include welding, this was the guy's way of trying to help you--a new guy that we haven't met. Yet they tried to help you. Most of these guys knew that trying to weld copper was impractical but rather than insult you by saying that this was a stupid idea, they offered practical solutions to help you. Then you complained about being off topic and that they weren't knowledgeable enough to answer. ("If you don't know, you don't know.")

The knowledge offered here is the sum total of 1000's of years of experience, both good and bad. Stick around, I think you will like it here and you'll learn a few new things while you are at it. Anybody who thinks he knows everything hasn't been asked the right question. We have a few artists here and I'm sure that they would enjoy you sharing some of expertise also. Have a good day--Mike.

dvideo
05-11-2003, 04:09 PM
Ah... the joys of an internet moment.... I have been on the net since it was academic - and that is a while. BBSing before... Since the mid 70s...

Early on, it was clear that *I* don't know if the other person on the net is 14, a dog (it has happened... :&gt; ), or has so much wisdom that even God might take some notes.... Hard to tell.. Especially true these days..

Flaming is never good, always destructive and is a destructive creature all of its own. Creates needless hard feelings at best and I have seen dark, even evil motives once or twice.

So put it behind us and take the site for what it is... A pale shadow of real personas willing to share experinces and abilities... I certainly have learned a lot... I hope some things I put out have helped others and I am a lower-mid experience person. That is with almost 30 years of small business startup, consulting, computer design, and et. al. experince. So you have to read a lot of postings to get a feel for the people involved. None of the posters are paid for time or efforts here. There are a lot of people from very varied backgrounds. A common interest and shared creative bent unites our paths for a while here. You would likely never meet anyone else on this board, othewise.

So lighten up on the attacks. Vetreans know it is a measure of newness - and something to grow out of - at least if you plan to accomplish anything. But we have all been there too...

Jerry Robinson

FWIW.. Don't pick on poor NYC... The nicest people I have ever met over time have all been from NYC, Long Island, New Jersey, or near!... Funny how that perception has hung about over time as Texas, CA, and FL have grown near as large or larger.... NYC is where all the good theatres and add-signage companies are!

eXoticforms
05-11-2003, 06:02 PM
Thumbs up DVideo. I was ready to check out after the first encounter of the know-all attitudes that had nothing to add anyway. Some think that they are owed a respect, but they must give it to get it. I'm moving past this crap and will certainly do my best to participate and put in my two cents *where I think it may be helpful*. Hopefully the people that don't like me won't participate in the threads that I author.

L Webb
05-11-2003, 06:38 PM
eXoticforms said:

<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">I was ready to check out after the first encounter of the know-all attitudes that had nothing to add anyway.</font>

You were the first one to fire off on people trying to help. That type of attitude belongs somewhere besides here.
This is one of the few forums that doesn't generally get into flame-wars.
If people feel they need clarification on a vague question or head off in a different direction, so be it. You will eventually get the answer you were looking for or somebody might steer you in a slightly different direction that will solve your problem or dilemma.
If you would take the time to read some of the past posts and get a feel for the forum, it will make you realize that this is a community of very different people of varying skills and talents, not a bunch of "know-it-alls" as you put it.
Les

dvideo
05-11-2003, 06:39 PM
Well.. I would hope everyone that really thinks about what we are interested in and what we do - might post... I know that no one can "like" or "not like" you over 4 lines in a thread. We all have thick skins too. Comes with lathe work (:&gt; ). You just don't ever, ever know what is totally going on.... Posting is a little slice of thoughts and persona set to this small window... Mornings, that slice may be totally confused - but not really representative of total contribution or persona... Sometimes postings spin to the wierd and wonderful or off to the dumpster. In my case, sometimes to the boring and confused section - or so I am told.... :&gt;

One thing that can and does happen, is a lot of synergy. And I think that is very useful - certainly to me. Treasure Synergy. When the topics start spinning off theme, who really cares... hang on to the synergy... I have found following the theads and spins to be of great advantage - I got interested in surface finishing and casting that way. Most questions have multiple answers. Some may be more effective than others, depending on need or viewpoint. Setting the ground work for a different view is useful too..

Just to really spin on it.... I have these rules of engineering.

An Engineer can analyze a situation, come up with a solution and implement it.

A Senior Engineer can usually consider 10+ different ways of doing something and come up a-or-several "best among" solutions - and implement them.

The Fellow can do the Senior Engingeer's stuff - consider the possibilities, and if necessary invent a new type solution and implement it...

And then there are people like DaVinci, Feynman, Einstein, Tesla and such.... No labels apply and they alter the worldscape around them...

You can find all such sorts posting their 4 lines here....

Jerry


[This message has been edited by dvideo (edited 05-11-2003).]

docsteve66
05-11-2003, 07:08 PM
Exotic: How about trying to accept the soothing oils offered you?

Your first post asked for and additional information. "+ any other pertnant suggestions are appreciated. Thanks, JL"

You got what I considered good answers, and responded "I am asking a specific question able WELDING copper. No brazing, riviting, glueing, taping, chewing gum or the like! If you don't know, you don't know.... ". Then you have presented some pretty harsh staements.

Your 12:17 post appears to me to be an continuing attempt to have people choose up sides and "enjoy" your post or fight. You were offered plenty of soothing, stroking, sympathy. How about backing off and get in step? We do get carried away sometimes by emotional issues and need to be calmed down. But the issues are more heart felt than "should you braze, rivit etc" .

You started with a clean slate, messed it up a little, were forgiven and asked to stay. Your later posts would indicate that you still have some problems letting a sleeping dog lie. You have un-neccessarily abused some of us. Your little speech about respect, given and recieved is correct. Now try to earn some respect-you have a small hole to climb out of. You insist on deepening that hole
Steve

eXoticforms
05-11-2003, 07:25 PM
Hey Les, I had made one comment about "specific question" and I certainly could have handled myself more professionally there. I don't really conside that firing off, but setting the thread to not be filled with comments that are really not partnant to the original subject. That is my opinion, as many others have stated that they need to post theirs.

eXoticforms
05-11-2003, 07:44 PM
<font face="Verdana, Arial" size="2">Originally posted by eXoticforms:
Hey Les, I had made one comment about "specific question" and I certainly could have handled myself more professionally there. I don't really conside that firing off, but setting the thread to not be filled with comments that are really not partnant to the original subject. That is my opinion, as many others have stated that they need to post theirs.</font>


Steve, I do appreciate those oils and will galdly accept them and I'm in no hole.

Al Messer
05-11-2003, 09:47 PM
Would some body PLEASE tell me just WHY it's gotta be welded?

eXoticforms
05-11-2003, 11:05 PM
Hey Al, I was hoping that welding would speed up the process and keep me from having to build an elibarate jig to hold the plates in place till they were joined. Instead of putting out the whole story, I have been busy in a battle of the wills which is now over.... I'm in the process of thinking about the jig and how to hold things while they are brazed, instead of welded. It's tough to explain the plans, you'd just have to see them and I am happy to send em' if your interested. I was also interested in having joints that would tarnish the same way that the copper plates would. Sorry it took so long to get you that answer!

Thrud
05-11-2003, 11:17 PM
yf:
It is nearly impossible to spot weld copper as it requires horrendous current (kiloamps). Very thin copper sheet can be spotwelded with watercooled tips and 2KA.

Easier to use the TIG.

yf
05-12-2003, 02:04 AM
Dave,

I realize that due to coppers conductivity,high amperage is needed.
But I know that my 220V 15A spotwelder outputs 1.5V at about 3000 amps with a 50 percent duty cycle.
That ought to handle the .125" plate.
I've spotwelded 2 sheets of .125" stainless 300 series with excellent results.
I also use the spotwelder to heat steel for forging. When I am in a rush and need to do only 1 piece. It heats a 9/16" dia. tire iron to forging heat in about 7 seconds.

I will say that I have never tried spotwelding copper though. Solder would be my first choice for joining copper. If an even patina is wanted the joint can probably be plated with copper sulfate by imersing overnight.

bspooh
05-12-2003, 03:07 PM
Whew!!! It looks like we are all getting along just fine now.....

Happy chips.. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

brent

Thrud
05-12-2003, 04:32 PM
Yf
Stainless spot welds beautifully.

Copper - is another story. We had a 15,000A spot welder and it could not do it - just ruins the water cooled tips.

Brass, Aluminum you can spotweld - Aluminum approaches the "give up hoser" area.

dvideo
05-12-2003, 05:54 PM
So why not just pick the best joining technique, never mind the welding, and then plate it... From a cosmetics stangpoint, it would look better and uniformaly age. Sturcture and saftey issues satsified first, and then plate the happy face &lt;: on....

-- jr

Al Messer
05-12-2003, 07:03 PM
Exoticforms---Phos-copper rods are self fluxing on Copper and the joints on a small marine boiler I built back in around 1981 have aged nicely and look just like the rest of the boiler---crudey but antiquey. Just have the joint CLEAN and you should have no trouble with the colors after a bit.

eXoticforms
05-12-2003, 08:26 PM
Hey Al, ironic you mention that actually, as I ordered some Aufhauser Phoscopper rods of various flavors today so I can play around a bit with various joint types and strength tests!
And naturally, since I'm pretty stubborn, got a little silicon/bronze and aluminum/bronze mig wire as well. I'll let you know what happens!


------------------
www.exoticforms.com (http://www.exoticforms.com)

Skeezicks
05-13-2003, 01:32 AM
According to my 1942 Edition of AWS,
Welding handbook 1504 pages.
pre-heating and then use a carbon arc torch.
Two carbon electrodes, but it would be hard to see, considering that you need a #15
shade.

da Skeezicks

ps. I joined this group, because someone wants to weld copper!

SJorgensen
05-13-2003, 03:21 AM
I'm listening but I have nothing to say. After being rebuked by Alistair Hosie, who is a man that I have respect for and whom I admire despite our differences, I can handle anything that THIS guy can say. He isn't far off on the W2 I am sure. My contribution to society though has not been written yet, but it will not be because of some fancy artsy fartsy solid copper lamp sold to widows of 9/11. I've never felt lonely though. I am fine alone, but the people I meet, I drink in like a good brandy. I'm getting the aroma of this guy and it is reminiscing of something putrid like vinegar or worse. He has no idea of the range of people I know. I have no idea if anyone of my friends in NY knows him. I just think that he is pretty rude and that I’d like to meet him socially some day and probably will.

Spence

dvideo
05-13-2003, 03:34 AM
If 4 lines of annoyance are as baaaaad as it gets on this site, then we have it made. *Some Canadian Bouncers* might say that life is full of friction. Some days you bounce. Some days you get bounced (if you only weigh 250). But don't lose sight of the real objectives. It is the professional thing to do.

-- jr

eXoticforms
05-13-2003, 09:09 AM
I can't believe that you are still taking pokes at me SPENCY. I think your walker wheel is on your air hose again. The thread had turned to really good information sharing till you chimed in with your usual mindless gibberish. And you are free to meet me socially anytime you like, my address is freely available.

O yeah, and by the way, I'm glad to have a good brady here for you, but I refuse to change your diapers.
Your in luck, I just check my stash and I have a bottle of "Stock 84" that I picked up for $6.99, you'll have to forgive me though, as I used some to clean parts after attemps to wash them with mineral spirits failed.

[This message has been edited by eXoticforms (edited 05-13-2003).]

Dave Opincarne
05-13-2003, 07:14 PM
eXotic, I'd like to suggest that there are many brands of decaf that are just as good as regular coffee.

You've said you'd accept the "soothing oils" offered you so let it go. Spence (not SPENCEY, Spence) probably shouldn't have said what he did about your work, but you're being antaganistic too. It pi**es me off because as someone with a fine arts background and who grew up on the front rage too I might want to get to know you a little better if you'd just tone down the attiutude a little bit. Reading your bio it sounds like your relativly new to this as a profesion. I know from experience that trying to make a living selling work and yourself can be frustraiting since people are turning you down for entirerly subjective reasons. Finding out you didn't get a job not because of anything you did but because they don't like your work is hard. But the worst thing for me was when someone looked at my work and said "It's nice" Doesn't do a thing for me or them, I haven't made them feel or think at all. Most people liked my images, some of my work bothered people, sometimes for reasons they couldn't explain. No problem, at least they felt something. Spence doesn't think much of your work. So what! Not every one is. As someone who did make his living as a comercial and fine arts photographer for seven years I can tell you that it won't be the first time and you'd better learn to deal with it if you want to keep enjoying what your doing. Your work is good, from your web sight it looks a little basic and narrow in terms of variety but very well exicuted. For two years that's pretty good. Be happy with that, not everyone hear is an art lover or a sophisticate, that's not a prerequisite to be here. As others have said, look around and see how this place works. Yea, Spence was a little rude, but a lot of this could have been avoided if you would have entertained alternative methods or questions initialy. I say a lot of this could have been avoided because you've still gotten a lot of good advice about other ways to solve your problem and it looks like that's where you've ended up anyway, only a lot of people got bent out of shape. As for myself, I would have suggested plating, flame spraying, or copper leaf but you only wanted to know about welding.

-Dave

eXoticforms
05-13-2003, 11:11 PM
Hey Dave, didn't you catch what I said about 10 lines back. Mind your business. I guess you didn't get that the first time or the time I had no reply to your personal mail to me. I don't know who the hell you think you are talking to, but plaese do us all a favor with your sermon and put it under your pillow for the tooth ferry.

[This message has been edited by eXoticforms (edited 05-13-2003).]

Dave Opincarne
05-14-2003, 12:15 AM
For the record and benifit of the rest of the list, my "personel" e-mail was a copy of my post on page one asking him to stick around and in case he really had gone to let him know there were others here asking him to do the same.

Dave Opincarne
05-14-2003, 12:16 AM
I'll post when and where I want. You don't like it, to bad. When this is your bb you can do something about it.

[This message has been edited by Dave Opincarne (edited 05-14-2003).]

Thrud
05-14-2003, 02:56 AM
Dave, Spence
I don't think exoticform plays well with others. "Toxicform" might be a better "handle" until he grows up some. Watch the smoke come out of his ears on THAT comment. A perfect example of why we have been plagued by wars our entire history. Intolerance. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//frown.gif

Spence
Don't take Alistair comments personally, worry when he starts swearing at you in Gaelic! He is a gentleman, scholar, and decent human being. Peace brother. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

eXoticforms
05-14-2003, 08:55 AM
I work and play well with others. Thought we were on the level thrud, guess not. This thread and all concerned had got back on topic with regards to welding copper quite a few lines back. However, there may be a couple people that I don't see eye to eye with and don't care to. --- You can't be all things to all people. Instead of just going about their business, they feel like they need to inject their personal/character related comments. I'm not even going to waste my time trying to figure out why. It doent' belong here anyway. I will certainly not go into a thread and blab about something other than the topic that started the thread.... unless someone like spency or dave comes along, who loves to keep a confrontation going.



[This message has been edited by eXoticforms (edited 05-14-2003).]

bspooh
05-14-2003, 08:59 AM
I do admit that this "thread" has been very entertaining to me,...but I do think we should end this thread now before it gets out of hand...

Lets get back to teasing thrud about his sisters meatloaf...or how thrud has to lose weight in order to fly in an airplane now..

ooops..looks like I am Thrud bashing again..

sorry thrud(dave)

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//smile.gif

no harm, no foul...

brent

eXoticforms
05-14-2003, 09:12 AM
Thanks for your patience and positive remarks Brent. I am all for that idea. I'd like to clean up the whole thread so it might be usefull reading material in the future.

humor to lighten this up now...
http://www.exoticforms.com/temp

I was nearly ready to reach into the ol' "yo momma is so fat, stupid, and ugly" insult archive.

[This message has been edited by eXoticforms (edited 05-14-2003).]

Al Messer
05-14-2003, 02:23 PM
I have found Phos-Copper to be quite strong on butt joints and on lap joints is almost indestructable. I don't know how large the piece you propose doing will be, but I would think that it (Phos-Copper) would stand up to most normal weather conditions, including a few adverse ones.

Rotate
05-14-2003, 02:54 PM
eXoticforms,

I gotta good chuckle out of the song about the Cat. Good one.

Albert

Thrud
05-14-2003, 04:39 PM
eXoticforms:
I have nothing against you, but you come off like a rabid pit bull over nothing. That is why I said what I did - to make you think. Don't get offended.

And I am fat, ugly, and stupid - so take your best shot, I have big shoulder and I can take it. Kick me in the balls, steal my money, barf on my truck. No big deal.

Let's all just stop the name calling please, it does little for the brotherhood (and sisters too)

Brent
Just for that, no anvil...I mean meatloaf for you mister! http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//eek.gif http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//tongue.gif

I am still willing to shave my body, wear a pink tutu, and let you adopt me - providing I get some shop space and a big allowance....

Next time I am in the neighborhood I will buy you a Chocolate milk with a root beer chaser. Maybe I can have some meatloaf inserts made for you by then for turning Carbide. http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net//biggrin.gif

eXoticforms
05-14-2003, 05:49 PM
Don't want to be a pit bull. The other day near my shop, there was a disturbance and some jackass sicked his pitbull on the cops that came and at the same time went for one of their guns... Well needless to say the cops shot both the dog and the perp.... a lot of times. NICE!

Yeah, they must have spent 30 minutes trying to revive that poor dog.

[This message has been edited by eXoticforms (edited 05-14-2003).]

gamachinist
05-14-2003, 06:06 PM
Poor dog!Robert.

bspooh
05-14-2003, 06:33 PM
Hey exoticforms---

Nice website...good luck with your business.....Do you have a workshop? Because the next time I fly to the Bronx, maybe I could look you up in Brooklyn...who knows...

brent

SJorgensen
05-15-2003, 02:48 AM
ExoticForms,
I think that one of the problems that you have had on this site is that you are a perfectionist. You don't like any input into this thread because you intended to use it on your website. If it doesn't fit the vision that you had it must agrivate you. I think you wanted to create a link that would validate your opinions. Sorry I can't do that. Speaking for myself, I would have given you so much more effort of the meager knowledge I have (and I do mean meager) but you disparage people who have participated here for many months or years. That was what gave me the first view of what your personality was like. You were almost exactly right in your assessment of me. But almost no one knows why. I advise you to tread a little more carefully in the future. It is just a little advise. I've been a network administrator for 8 years and I'm just sayin....I don't like your attitude. I am going to send you an email of the things you've said since you started posting here. I may be the only one who thinks you are an asshole, but I doubt it. I hope your Daughters don't look for assholes. They will find them very easily. To have you as a role model is pretty weak in my book. New Yorkers know assholes are in good supply and when they run out they go to CO. No I didn't mean that. Colorado is cool. I'm just pissed off by this asshole.

Spencey

eXoticforms
05-15-2003, 08:50 AM
Good luck with that conspiracy theory there Spency. If you are really pissed you can use your skills to hack at my site litte. Both Cisco and Nortel offer very comprehensive and free curriculum for becoming a network engineer, including security specialist. A listing of classes and workshops should be readily available on either site in their respective "business partner" sections. Well, good luck to you man and thanks for your comments. I'll watch for that email.

------------------
www.exoticforms.com (http://www.exoticforms.com)

[This message has been edited by eXoticforms (edited 05-15-2003).]

docsteve66
05-15-2003, 10:57 AM
eXoticforms: You are digging the hole I mentioned deeper and deeper. Man IN the hole has hard time knowing how deep it is. How about going back through the last year or so posts. No one has kept up a disagreement so lnog as you have here. Very few times have any of us called names or engaged in personality conflicts- and when the conflicts arose they were over very emotional issues. Just from my view point, your issues started trivial, remain trival and are ego issues.

Some times the bigger man takes his hat in his hand, puts honey in his mouth and admits he messed up. Little men can't. Little men who want to be big usualy start with their pecker and some defenseless gal or a pencil writing on the walls for all to read. Real fighters, when fighting is needed, go into the woods alone and settle things with no audience to seperate them if things go wrong.

It is unseemly to continue squabbing and rehashing percieved offenses. I can speak for no one excepting my self, but frankly you have become boring and tedious. We all make mistakes, then compound them and wish we could back out gracefully. Why not apologize and sin no more?

Where I come from, a gentleman avoids un-intentionaly offending others, I hope to not have offended you, but if I have- How about taking my advice/request as non offensive and respond not at all or in a gentlemanly fashion?
Peace
Steve

eXoticforms
05-15-2003, 12:29 PM
ME? your nuts, this thread had turned for the better several times and was drawn back into conflict by others.

O, and by the way, I do apologize to everyone that has read this thread, except dave and spence who I just don't care for.

Agreed Joel, this is my last word on this thread. Sorry you feel that way Les.

[This message has been edited by eXoticforms (edited 05-15-2003).]

Joel
05-15-2003, 02:21 PM
Gentlemen, perhaps there is a simple way to end the unpleasantness. Just stop, ignore, and let it go? We don't always have to agree.

Life is short...

L Webb
05-15-2003, 02:32 PM
I just hope Neil locks this thread so it ends.

Steve, you sound like a patient tactful man.
I think it is a waste of time to try and reason with someone like Mr. eXoticforms.
I don't see much success in his future with an attitude like his.

Les

Neil
05-15-2003, 03:40 PM
Lets end this thread and go on.

Thanks
Neil