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View Full Version : Is a Shaper the right tool for the job?



Davek0974
10-17-2007, 07:09 AM
Hi all,

Would a little shaper cut keyways in gears, hubs etc?

Not sure if its the right machine for the job as i have only used one about 30 years ago and then only for a couple of hours.

Looking ahead at building a 6" scale traction engine and thinking of the gears and drive etc, lots of big keyways to cut there.

Looking at a Boxford 8" or Elliot.

Thanks in advance,

Dave

jkilroy
10-17-2007, 08:13 AM
A shaper will do the job! You will have to do a little work in the area of tool holding, but there is plenty of information out there on the subject. If I remember I'll take some pics of my internal keyway tooling today at the shop.

Davek0974
10-17-2007, 10:12 AM
Thanks JK that would be much appreciated.


Dave

crancshafter
10-17-2007, 11:35 AM
Here is a simple solution. Look at Mr. Ishimura`s slotter, nice little gadget for making internal/eksternal keyways. Need anny bigger?. Scale up to suit your lathe. I did and it works find.;)
http://homepage3.nifty.com/amigos/slotter/slotting_tool-e.htm

Spin Doctor
10-17-2007, 12:53 PM
Another option is to use a vertical mill as a slotter. Plus picking a couple of keyway broaches off of ebay mighr not be a bad idea.

Davek0974
10-17-2007, 03:17 PM
Without a slotting head, how do you cut internal slots on a vertical mill?

Never seen or used a broach, dont they need a press?, will have a look.

Dave

shadoof
10-17-2007, 03:31 PM
Without a slotting head, how do you cut internal slots on a vertical mill?

Never seen or used a broach, dont they need a press?, will have a look.

Dave

You use the quill to plunge a slotting tool into the work, taking small cuts at a time.

7018
10-17-2007, 03:41 PM
All of the above ideas are good one, But now you have a good reason to buy a shaper....:D

thistle
10-17-2007, 03:55 PM
from the archives

cutting key ways with a shaper...........



http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=14513&highlight=shaper

Davek0974
10-17-2007, 03:56 PM
I made a slotting attachment for my lathe but not only did it knacker my right arm:D it also put a serious load on the lathe carriage clamp.

I would never put a delicate item such as my prized and loved bridgeports' quill through such abuse.

The lathe attachment was really limited to about a 4x4mm slot, i need 10x5mm ones next and two gears have six splines in each.:eek:

I'll look into a shaper i think, you can never have too much equipment.

Dave

tattoomike68
10-17-2007, 04:13 PM
The job shops I have woked in had keyseating machines. Iv keyed alot of pulleys ,gears, sprockets, fan rotors and PTO yokes. One I ran had an air powered feed system with automatic shut off. it was a set it and forget it operation.

http://machinetoolsforsale.com/NewPictures/HansfordModel5.jpg

Davek0974
10-17-2007, 04:25 PM
Wow, is that machine like a power attachment for a broach?

Looks good, probably hard to find.

Dave

tattoomike68
10-17-2007, 04:33 PM
Wow, is that machine like a power attachment for a broach?

Looks good, probably hard to find.

Dave

Yes it has power, its a vertical shaper. Not hard to find at all.

http://www.hpproc.com/store.asp?pid=9595&catid=19704

Farmers and canneries use alot of pulleys and sprockets so its a shop tool that does not gather dust.

Im going up to the shop to do some welding I will get a picture of our keyseater.

tattoomike68
10-18-2007, 02:38 PM
Here is our old keyseater, it was built by an old time local machinist.
it pulls the brooch nice and slow but chews a key out real fast.

http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f24/snoopdog6502/keyseater.jpg

Davek0974
10-18-2007, 03:02 PM
So its a slow drive, that pulls a broach down through the hole and up again?
The broach is supported on both ends and the top support goes up and down with it?
The slot width is set by the broach i guess?

Looks like a useful machine. Could be realatively easily built but would likely cost more than a shaper from ebay. The only downside i can see with a shaper is that the wheels i need to cut slots in are quite large and would probably need to be fixed on the front of the shaper table rather than on top.

How is depth of cut set and adjusted?

What sort of stroke speed?

What sort of power is required to pull a broach?

Sorry for all the questions but i am already thinking of construction ideas!

Thanks
Dave

dp
10-18-2007, 03:14 PM
There's one for sale on Craig's List: http://bellingham.craigslist.org/tls/450647756.html

Alistair Hosie
10-18-2007, 06:51 PM
Broaching is normally carried out with tremendous force, and I wonder how awkward pieces will be held down with this machine, as it tendancy is to lift up workpieces from the table with equal vigour.Alistair ps or have I got it all wrong?

John Stevenson
10-18-2007, 07:02 PM
I would never put a delicate item such as my prized and loved bridgeports' quill through such abuse.

The lathe attachment was really limited to about a 4x4mm slot, i need 10x5mm ones next and two gears have six splines in each.

I'll look into a shaper i think, you can never have too much equipment.

Dave
Dave, If you are splining you need some form of indexing.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/hidden/spline2.jpg


Done on a vertical slotter.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/hidden/ravensburgh1.jpg

Or you can get slotters to fit a bridgeport.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/hidden/slotter1.jpg

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/hidden/slotter2.jpg


.

Davek0974
10-19-2007, 02:20 AM
I've been looking for a slotting head for my BP for some time now, they are pretty rare and expensive. The vertical slotter is ideal, traction engine splines are more like six large keyways cut around the shaft, not the usual v-notch spline.

Yes, it would need indexing of some type. I guess i'll keep looking for a shaper etc, no rush.

Dave

Davek0974
10-19-2007, 04:12 AM
Thanks all,

the largest dia. i need to hold for keywaying is 15". I guess that on a shaper, it will mean a big angle plate with my 6" rotab bolted onto, facing the tool. But then the rotab centre will need to be 7.5" above the shaper table. That sounds like too far to me, plus a *very* big angle plate.

Hmm, sounds like a difficult job to me. Broaching with manual indexing? There are two smaller gears that need six keyways in each, these will fit nicely on the angle/rotab/shaper setup, that just leaves the large 15" hub to be solved.

I guess that as it only needs one slot, i could fixture it across the end of the shaper table box so that the bore is much lower to the table using an angle plate on each side? If the ram travels to the end of the bed which i presume it does, that sounds workable to me.

Hows about that?

Dave

Evan
10-19-2007, 05:40 AM
Get a bigger shaper. The bigger they are the cheaper they are. My 16" Whipp was free. For the small stuff the lathe tool post slotter attachment I made works well. I haven't found it to be hard on my arm as it takes a pretty good bite each stroke and is done quickly.

http://vts.bc.ca/metalshop/hobber/hs1.jpg

http://vts.bc.ca/metalshop/hobber/hobber.htm

Evan
10-19-2007, 09:02 AM
Look for one of these. This was posted by Alistair quite some time ago. This is the ultimate shaper.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/shaper1.jpg

thistle
10-19-2007, 09:29 AM
or if you find a plain vanilla Elliott (and variants)14" or 18 " you might get lucky and find the slotting attachment.
couple other shapers have slotting attachments

i have not used the slotting attachment but if i had a traction engine project........


http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/mudskipper/slotting20attachment.jpg

thistle
10-19-2007, 09:34 AM
or if you had the space this should be ok , bores ,mills ,slots ect ask the missus first though

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/mudskipper/propbig3.jpg

kap pullen
10-19-2007, 12:39 PM
One of these will work for keyways, splines, and deep slotting like journal box slots.

It will even do squaring up on odd shapes.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v206/kappullen/Picture050.jpg

This cost $1750. a couple years ago. It's one of my favorites.

Kap

shadoof
10-19-2007, 02:10 PM
Look for one of these. This was posted by Alistair quite some time ago. This is the ultimate shaper.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/shaper1.jpg

I did a quick search through Alistair's posts but this didn't turn up, could you point me to the thread as this looks interesting.

Ta very much.

tattoomike68
10-19-2007, 04:28 PM
So its a slow drive, that pulls a broach down through the hole and up again?
The broach is supported on both ends and the top support goes up and down with it?
The slot width is set by the broach i guess?

Looks like a useful machine. Could be realatively easily built but would likely cost more than a shaper from ebay. The only downside i can see with a shaper is that the wheels i need to cut slots in are quite large and would probably need to be fixed on the front of the shaper table rather than on top.

How is depth of cut set and adjusted?

What sort of stroke speed?

What sort of power is required to pull a broach?

Sorry for all the questions but i am already thinking of construction ideas!

Thanks
Dave

Depth of cut is set by a stop on the back of the over-arm.

The stroke rate is about 30 stokes per minute.

that machine has 460 3 phaise power maybe about 3 hp with a grear box to slow it way down.

the table slides to get the brooch cutting square and even the length of the bore. Its fed by a rack and pinnion that runs through the overarm.

The overarm acts as a hold down with the cam lock.

Evan
10-19-2007, 04:29 PM
I don't recall the thread. I had that pic saved.

John Stevenson
10-19-2007, 06:11 PM
Dave,
If you get stuck on big machining that slotter and the big TOS lathe at 11" centres by 84" between centres is always free at weekends if you want to pop up and use these.

.

sandman2234
10-20-2007, 09:55 AM
The image of that reminds me of a kid many years ago that lived next door and would come over and stand at our door and wait for someone to open it. Never did knock on the door, just waited and when they opened it, he would ask "Can Merny come out and play"? Merny was actually my little sister Marian but he couldn't say her name correctly. If she did go out and play, they would just sit for about 5 minutes on the walkway, never saying a word and then back in the house they would go. Really cute for a couple of 3 year olds.
I can just see Dave knocking on the door bright and early one saturday morning, and asking "Can John come out and play"?
David from jax

Davek0974
10-20-2007, 10:07 AM
Thanks for all the advice guys, especially the offer for machine usage, i'm overwhelmed by the response to this question. I now know that what i want to do is possible on a shaper, i have an idea of what type of machine could be built for the job and if i get stuck, i have an offer of machines usage, its amazing.

It will be some six-eight months or so before i get to start cutting metal on the big project. I'm still finishing my 3" scale engine and i really dont want to rush anything.

In the meantime, i need to keep my eyes open for a cheap shaper and a bandsaw.

Thanks again.
Dave

Davek0974
10-20-2007, 10:17 AM
Nice tale Sandman. Things were better back in the day, people could be trusted. Nowdays you wouldnt dream of letting a 3 year old out of the house, its so sad.

Having a relative stranger offer me into his workshop really did restore my faith in humanity a bit, takes some doing these days!

Dave

Peter N
10-20-2007, 10:34 AM
Having a relative stranger offer me into his workshop really did restore my faith in humanity a bit, takes some doing these days!

Dave

He's a good bloke is John.
If you're visiting, down forget to bring a piece of floor with you so that you have somewhere to stand :D
(and milk for the coffee..)

Peter

joeby
10-20-2007, 10:52 AM
Dave,
The shaper that Evan has the pic of is an Anderle Steyr. There is very little information about them on the internet, that I have been able to find.

I'm sure most people who frequent machining sites are familiar with the late Art Volz. I emailed him several times about these machines, and he told me that there were two in the US that he was aware of; mine and one in Ohio, I believe.

I'm sure there are many more lurking around, and if you should happen to find one I wouldn't hesitate taking it home. Parts are non-existent; but most shapers have this problem.

It is a tracer or copy shaper, and were advertised as being capable of copying the template to within .0005". They have a built in indexing head with power feed on the indexing head and table cross feed. Every one of these shapers I have turned up on the internet has been a 12", like mine.

If you do happen to find one, let us know. They are versatile enough to make an excellent machine for model making.

Kevin

shadoof
10-20-2007, 02:44 PM
here ya go,


http://www.werktuigen.nl/index.php?page=verkoop&cat=29&subcat=579&item=61804&mid=6223

joeby
10-20-2007, 02:59 PM
There's a nice looking example! That one even has the chamfering attachment still on it, although the guard is missing. The rest of the attachment for copying using the dividing head is also gone.

Those parts may be included in the deal however. There doesn't seem to be much information on the site.

Kevin

shadoof
10-20-2007, 03:05 PM
yeah, picture could be better, I'm not going for it though, not got enough room

I guess I'll have to rig up a table extension for my Elliott 10m


Right, I'm off to work, 200 mile drive to London:mad: next Thursday, Fri off:)

oil mac
10-21-2007, 08:26 AM
Dave,
Go for a shaper, Trust Me! I have been using one of these nice machines for 46 years, A 6" stroke Adept, Ideal for tiny items, I also have a nice 10" Royal shaper, and a powerfull 6" stroke Denham of Halifax slotting machine, i would not part with them for the world, Even although my milling machine is more efficient, for a pleasant machine to operate, the shapers& slot are hard to beat. Lots of people nowadays think that a shaper is only for " second rate work", Nothing could be further from the truth, on finishing work, a " broad " faced scraping tool and low speed give a lovely finish, better in my thoughts than milling ( all be it slower) Same goes for a little hand powered planing machine i also sometimes use.

Davek0974
10-21-2007, 08:58 AM
Thanks oil mac,

I am keeping my eyes open for a suitable machine, im not in a rush. Current ebay prices seem to be about 180-220 or i could get one from a dealer at about 450 inc delivery. Probably a 8" Boxford or 10" Elliot.

As i said, im not rushing so i can look for that elusive "bargain" to come along. I also need to get a small mitre bandsaw as well, but at least they are cheap enough to just get a new one.

Dave

lazlo
10-21-2007, 10:47 AM
If you get stuck on big machining that slotter and the big TOS lathe at 11" centres by 84" between centres is always free at weekends if you want to pop up and use these.

Wow, that's incredibly generous John! Does that invitation extend to the US crowd? :D

By the way John, you mentioned that you were trading the Bridgy for another machine -- have you switched-over to another milling machine?

lazlo
10-21-2007, 10:49 AM
The shaper that Evan has the pic of is an Anderle Steyr. There is very little information about them on the internet, that I have been able to find.

It is a tracer or copy shaper, and were advertised as being capable of copying the template to within .0005". They have a built in indexing head with power feed on the indexing head and table cross feed.

Wow, that's a sweet shaper! Another keyword search to add to Ebay ;)

Davek0974
07-02-2013, 04:48 PM
Just came across this thread on a search, thought I'd update it.

Never did get the shaper! In the end I came across a large broaching press and bought a few broaches off eBay, this worked well and I am now building my second 6" scale traction engine.

As this engine has some tricky parts to face and cut slots in, I have just bought a nice little 6" Astra slotter, seems like a useful addition to the shop.

It was cheaper than a slotting head bor the Bridgeport, these are fetching serious money these days.

The search was for pictures or info on slotting.