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platypus2020
10-22-2007, 09:52 PM
A while back, I believe YOD, posted a thread on a near miss between a train and a very long semi -trailer. The parts on the trailers looked like they were windmill blades, I been working in northern NY, along the Canadian border. About 15 miles north east of Malone NY, on RT11, there is a new windmill farm going up, almost 200 units, going up at a rate of 5-6 a week. I wondered if these were the ones he saw. According to the job foreman, about 100' tall with (3) 60' blades on each unit. Came up on the site the morning at about 6:15, crisp autum day, and the sun rising up over the windmills, too bad the digital camera was packed away. This is the first of 3-4 more planned up here in the flat farm land south of the ST Lawrence River.

Jack

darryl
10-22-2007, 10:34 PM
No windmill in this story, but that reminds me of a friend's place I visited not long ago. He has a set of swapped-out switchyard batteries, a mondo inverter, and solar panels- plus a generator. He claims that the solar panels supply enough juice to keep everything running according to their usages, without having to run the generator. We spend two days installing his kitchen and vanities, running a table saw, chop saw, iron, jig saw, etc, and pretty much all the lights, and only after he spent a couple hours in front of the big screen tv did the power give out. The solar panels were at one point supplying 79 amps to the system, and it was always overcast while we were there. At some points we were drawing more than 400 amps from the battery pack. (these are 800 ah cells). The beer was always cold and the hot water was always hot. A windmill would be the ideal add-on for his system.

This is on a beautiful lake, not that remote actually, but enough so there's no services- and almost no noise. Hmm, I guess the windmill would fix that 'problem'- but I guess they're not really noisy either. I imagine three 60 ft blades would be a bit of overkill for his system-

BobC
10-22-2007, 11:04 PM
My landlord near Munich, Germany had a good portion of his roof covered with solar panels. I learned that by law he could sell power back to the power company at a premium of 2X or more over what they charged for a unit of power.
I always enjoyed watching the area windmills working 24/7 on my daily route, one at the intersection of Autobahns 99 and 9 and others farther North along Route 9.

Bob

Dawai
10-23-2007, 07:32 AM
Like it or not? windmills and solar cells are a thing of the future. I could not believe the stupidity of the politicians who voted against them in the Tennessee valley here.

Our grid all across our country will take more hits like the northwest blackout. Not sure how you get it all back online, someone has to take a chance and lock it in and near smoke their power plant to supply a synchronizing voltage. Perhaps if it all was synced on a Internet waveform?

Some of you geniuses work up that? It'd make a world of difference. You could also synch in a generator before you throw the switch and shake a power plant.

Hydro plants? used to start up on battery banks.
The gates are connected to the input side of the turbine, Wicket gates controlled by a hydraulic regulator are all around the turbine, throttling the water according to load demand to keep the generator turbine a constant speed, you can be walking around the wheelhouse in a power plant. something shut it down, them large levers on them wicket gates operated by the 12 foot long or more cylinder can snap shut so quick you could lose a ankle. They have shear pins in them also with a air pressure monitor, my apprentice stepped on a brass poly flow fitting breaking it, making me the bad guy around the plant for a week. When the air pressure snapped low, the controls thought there was a log in the inflow and scrammed the unit offline. Then there is the outgoing gates to shut to dewater the unit. There is always water with fish in the unit. Large fish who sit on the bottom like a hog, waiting on small fish going around and around to float by...

Then the air breaker valves, when the unit scrams offline? it has a air valve, that is what causes the bubbles behind the plant,, when the wickets slam shut? it lets air into the unit cause the rotating mass of the turbine and generator can possibly implode the casing around the turbine with suction.. so it lets air in.. squeals like a hog... boats fishing right in the discharge hoping to catch them HOG fish are suddenly supported by a column of bubbles.. so they hope.. A boat could conceivably fall to the bottom. Anyways, personally I have been in the wheel pit when the breaker opened and I can tell you it is really loud even with ear plugs in.

I have pictures.. somewhere... I love the old units at Ocoee with ball generators govenors on them.

Evan
10-23-2007, 08:24 AM
Perhaps if it all was synced on a Internet waveform?

Not possible. The time delay (latency) of packets sent on the internet is inherently variable and unpredictable. That's how it works and was designed to work. It can't be changed. Even packets in the same group can take different routes and arrive out of order. That's why packets have sequence numbers. Also, at each node along the way is an Ethernet network. Ethernet is also asynchronous with variable delays. The delay on an Ethernet lan is determined by not just the distance between the furthest apart clients on the network but also by random number generators in the NICs. Again, inherently unpredictable.

laddy
10-23-2007, 09:50 AM
Hey,
I drove through a grove of windmills from Dinklesbuhl to Rothenburg Germany going down through the Romantishe strasse stuck in amongst the grape vinyards. WoW! They sure are big. Quiet too.

tattoomike68
10-23-2007, 10:04 AM
Less than 20 miles from my place there is a good sizes windfarm.

The link says there are 399 turbines but thats oudated by a bit there are 452 of them.

http://www.ppmenergy.com/cs_stateline.html

This is the type they put up.
http://www.vestas.com/vestas/global/en/

Dawai
10-23-2007, 10:05 AM
Evan:

Not possible? Ha.. fore-timed packets synced with the atomic clock? You are publishing a waveform associated with a past-present-future time. The whole idea would be to make them all "timed" the same. NOW, they pull a excitor signal off the grid, if the grid is black? hard to do. A hydro plant can start with dc batteries like I mentioned.. they used to.. but now most them have abandoned their dc rooms. Most nuclear plants depend on hydro electric. Then there are them peaker plants all over the south.. A big GE turbine running a gear drive generator.

Now they do it with a wobble meter. Sometimes when they remote operate the plant via automation, it shakes the building, the lights dim.. and generally scares the hell out of this old electrician.

when the lights dim, I ask, GOD, is that you.. are you calling me home?

Oldguy
10-23-2007, 02:39 PM
I used to live in the San Francisco area (east bay) and when they wanted to update and expand the wind farms in the Altamont pass area (between Livermore and Tracy), some environmental groups stepped in and stopped it. Seems that birds (raptors and protected species) were flying into the blades and being killed.

Wonder if this has become a concern anywhere else, or is it an "only in California" thing.

Glenn

tattoomike68
10-23-2007, 02:51 PM
I used to live in the San Francisco area (east bay) and when they wanted to update and expand the wind farms in the Altamont pass area (between Livermore and Tracy), some environmental groups stepped in and stopped it. Seems that birds (raptors and protected species) were flying into the blades and being killed.

Wonder if this has become a concern anywhere else, or is it an "only in California" thing.

Glenn

That was tried here on the Washington/Oregon border. They were worried about the ground squirrels. The Same freaks who want to breach the dams on the Columbia and Snake river.

They lost.:)

7018
10-23-2007, 02:58 PM
I was watching a show on ty the other day, They were putting the in a river around NY. It was a very interesting film..

sch
10-23-2007, 03:08 PM
The bird people are worried about any structure above the ground.
Antennas and their guy wires, lighthouses, tall buildings, now wind power
structures all of which slaughter birds by the millions, unfortunately not
enough canadian geese though. Wilderness afficionados are against them
where it will affect the view. High dollar residential areas don't want
them for the same reason.

Guido
10-23-2007, 03:23 PM
Looks like windy Texans are now on to something bigger than oil. Rather a couple of guys from New Iberia, LA, an offshore rigbuilder and a Cadillac dealer, if you can believe that. Perfect combo, a practical couple. Leasing run by the state.

They're on the front burner with a 25 sq. mile windfarm, 8 miles off Galveston, first offshore farm for the US. Big jobbies, 184 ft. heights, sitting in what is probably 20 feet of water. First power coming ashore by year end. (windenergypartners.com)

Offshore farms are the norm in the UK, Spain, Sweden, etc. plus the Ruskies are coming-------- GE announced this AM, 750 million contract for new wind equipment. Spain's Iberdrola with Siemons Electric behind them, just can't keep up.

As for Kalyphonies, the dip****s are out of control. Messychewsits with the Kennedys and Cronkites, not too far behind. NIMBY. Birds are attracted to the windfarms: They love the earthworms, which for some reason are driven to the surface due to the vibrations of the windmills.

and the beat goes on--------G

BobC
10-23-2007, 07:19 PM
Hey,
I drove through a grove of windmills from Dinklesbuhl to Rothenburg Germany going down through the Romantishe strasse Quiet too.

Although Rothenburg is nice, Dinkelsbuhl was one of our favorite stops in Germany.

On a visit to Copenhagen, windmills were very visible. If I remember correctly, Denmark produces more than 20% of their electric from wind power.

Guido
10-23-2007, 08:08 PM
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p86/Guido_album/mojaveairport.jpg

Whole lotta' people have a whole lotta' ideas, impressions of Mojave and it's windfarms but when one sits on his front porch and can take in scenes like the above, well--------.

G

J Tiers
10-23-2007, 08:44 PM
I've seen several large windfarms in the US, around here. It's not like they aren't being done, even if the most they could supply is around 2% of the total, even if saturated in every windy area.

There are some in Texas on the way to Big Bend Park, there are some in N Illinois on I39, there are two in Minnesota, and another being worked on in NW Missouri.

One construction company here in town has a turbine at their HQ that offsets a good chunk of their usage. It was the greenest building in the US a couple years ago.

Where I work, we do alternative energy stuff, and windfarm folks are a customer source for us. The newer thing is going to be smaller scale windfarms, local.

The environmental extremists will have to get used to it....If everyone lived like their precious native population of 300 years ago, most folks would die, there isn't enough land for the population to be hunter gatherers (oh, yeah, forgot.....can't hunt either, just gather, according to them).

They can't get their way unless they slaughter the population.

Paul Alciatore
10-24-2007, 01:34 AM
I took a trip up to Brit, IA a couple of weeks ago and saw a rather large windmill farm along I 35 along the way. Mason City area. They seemed to get along quite will with the corn fields below.

I often see the blades on the semis making their way there or perhaps to other areas.

I don't care what the percentage of our total power needs that they are capable of satisfying is, it seems to be a winning proposition no matter. Almost every other form or power generation has some drawbacks. I can't think of a single negative side effect of using wind power. I say put them up wherever there is enough wind.

OK, I said it so go ahead and flame me now.

oldtiffie
10-24-2007, 02:32 AM
I can see no real objection to wind farms so far as it goes.

These pics are what happened in one case in OZ:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Windmill_text1.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Windmill_pic1.jpg

Its hard to beat the Lawyers.

One of the Pubs (Hotels) in the town near here put in a Wind-turbine (blades about 50 feet long) for power to the Pub but mainly just to "do the right thing" and provide a computer link for the local schools and kids to get an "on line" "live" feed. Is not always going as it is either "locked" or not enough wind.

But it is right on the edge of your peripheral vision on a round-about on the intersection of 2 busy roads and can be quite distracting. The "locals" are used to it and don't notice it but it can and does distract some of the "out of towner's" particularly with the "woof-woof-woof" of the blades - especially if there are kids or talkative passengers in the car.

We have quite a few "wind-farms" with turbine-driven generators in OZ. They had the same "environmental issues" as mentioned in a previous post.

There is a very high probability that a "wave-power" station will be built to take advantage of some very high tides and waves on our coast line (will be a sort of "rise and fall" device under water fixed to moorings).

Another is a proposal to use several square Kilometers of desert to mount an array of mirrors to heat water to high-pressure steam to drive turbines.

Another is to use a hugely high tapered tower and thermal energy ("hot rocks") to cause an up-draft up the "cooling-tower" shaped "chimney" with the draft to drive turbines.

"Cleaning up" our coal-fired generators is attracting a lot of "comment" - and there-by "Government Money".

"Carbon sequestration"; "Carbon Trading"; "Carbon Credits"; "carbon Trading" et al are all "hot" topics here too. Especially with a Federal election campaign under way and an election only a matter of weeks off.

I hope this helps

Your Old Dog
10-24-2007, 06:47 AM
I wondered if these were the ones he saw. According to the job foreman, about 100' tall with (3) 60' blades on each unit. Came up on the site the morning at about 6:15, crisp autum day, and the sun rising up over the windmills, too bad the digital camera was packed away. This is the first of 3-4 more planned up here in the flat farm land south of the ST Lawrence River.

Jack

Here's a partial of the ones I saw. I think they are well over a 100 feet long if the tractor pulling them can be judged at longer than 20'

http://www.raymondswan.com/dp2/proppic1.JPG

As someone here said before, I think we're looking at our next form of pollution to clean up. They are butt ugly blight on the countryside. Much worse than power lines IMHO.

oldtiffie
10-24-2007, 07:48 AM
Doesn't matter what we say, those that know how to "press the right buttons" with and have influence on and access to the politicians will win the non-even(t) arguments.

Most of us are either ignored or just used as "drones" or "cannon-fodder".

As just about always.

J Tiers
10-24-2007, 08:14 AM
I don't care what the percentage of our total power needs that they are capable of satisfying is, it seems to be a winning proposition no matter. Almost every other form or power generation has some drawbacks. I can't think of a single negative side effect of using wind power. I say put them up wherever there is enough wind.

OK, I said it so go ahead and flame me now.

I generally agree. Apparently most people do not.

There are always crazy folks who won't be satisfied unless most everyone just lies down and dies so that they stop consuming oxygen and water, food etc. My suggestion is that those folks should lead the way...........

We already have the left political response, the "old man of the party" says he don't want to look at a windfarm off his multi-million dollar mansion on the coast.... (thus saying "in your face, Al")

The other end suggests burning more coal.....

As for ethanol, I don't think it is the answer either, although the wild claims for water required seem to count rain that would fall anyhow, and assume every gallon of process water is poured out and wasted after "use".....

Nope, you just can't please everyone.

Orrin
10-24-2007, 08:42 AM
Less than 20 miles from my place there is a good sizes windfarm.

The link says there are 399 turbines but thats oudated by a bit there are 452 of them.

http://www.ppmenergy.com/cs_stateline.html


The Stateline wind farm is an incredible sight. The windmills parallel the highway for mile upon mile; the must be stretched out for at least ten or fifteen miles. At one time is was said to be the largest windmill farm in the world. TattooMike68, do you know if this is still so?

Orrin

A.K. Boomer
10-24-2007, 10:03 AM
People constantly amaze me at how they are inept at taking thier thinking a step further than the obvious,
When I see a windmill its all right there, Yes like about every other thing we use it takes energies to either make or build or refine or whatever, and then with a windmill you have the site of it --- so what --- that and a couple dead birds,,, How many fuqing birds die from acid rain, how many people die of the vast amounts of CO2 along with all the other crap pumped into the air and on our soil that we use to grow food,
Geesus, its a no brainer, When I see a windmill it puts a smile on my face --- Because its all right there, all the resources it took to build, all its negative effects (the site of it --- big deal --- its a beautiful site!) And its semi-direct aproach at how it retireves solar energy VS fossil fuels indirect aproach,

Its all solar energy folks --- be it Photo-voltaic, hydro electric, wind power, coal, natural gas ------------ How would you rather go about it, You want to go direct? or you want to go indirect? Translation,,, you want to go a more carbon nuetral aproach, or you want to keep relying on yesteryears photosynthesis process that took place --- dig it up and burn it? Need I remind you that yesteryears photosynthesis process is the only reason were here, You want something thats poisening you but you find comfort in that because you "cant see it" WOW!
Eps. for the fact that you can see it...
Iv got the site of this massive eye sore of a coal power plant as soon as you come into my little town, that aint pretty either, not only that, its site has double meaning to me, one its just plain ugly but two its uglyness is way more than skin deep, it puts crap into the air I breath 24/7 and it consumes the good stuff to be able to do it...

How ass backwards can you get?

Now a question for the board --- are thier rules and regs about putting in a small windmill within city limits of a small town, Say the mast would only be 40' and the turbines blades about 6' ?

Rant off.

Alistair Hosie
10-24-2007, 10:10 AM
I believe we should have millions of these wind turbines all over the world,it would be the best idea since sliced bread.Alistair

Dawai
10-24-2007, 10:19 AM
OKAY..

what does the wind do? moves weather patterns around. Does the wind turbine actually slow the wind down? Remove energy otherwise used to cool and heat the earth? I remember reading once, it was about the calculable loop present in all life. It looks like a big ended figure 8... They said a butterfly flapping it's wing could change a weather pattern, once it applied it's power and it's energy. Kinda sounded like a old hippie to me.

I'd rather see wind turbines than peaker plants. I'd rather see buildings and homes made up with clean energy in mind. You've never heard a noise till you hear the gear whine in a peaker plant.

I've thought of installing a battery bank, and a inverter circuit throughout my home. FOR the time when it gets dark, the grid goes down and won't restart, powerplants one after another burn out trying to relight the grid. THEM lil compact fluorescents would be a key factor in this idea.

I wondered what Tesla would do with the gadgets we have nowadays.

andy_b
10-24-2007, 10:25 AM
Now a question for the board --- are thier rules and regs about putting in a small windmill within city limits of a small town, Say the mast would only be 40' and the turbines blades about 6' ?

Rant off.

the rules and regs would be specific to your community. speaking from personal experience, i am allowed to build a windmill on my property (it is zoned for it), but i would need a permit to do it because of the "permanent structure" (the windmill tower). but, if it was a temporary structure (a small windmill that could theoretically be taken down when wanted), then no permit is needed. also, depending on the height there may be zoning variances needed.

i also have a story for you. i'm originally from up near Hazleton, PA. there is a small community there in Nescopek. a company wanted to put in a windfarm, but the community objected because, well, big old windmills just don't look nice. this is a community of basically farmland. one, who cares about a few 140' windmills in the middle of a field? two, they wouldn't be bothering anyone. my family and i were talking about it and all of us felt like Boomer that it actually would be pretty cool to live near a windfarm (for basically the same reasons Boomer mentioned). in fact, i just find the sleek modern windmills to be darn cool looking.

here's the kicker. there is a nuclear plant in Berwick, PA, just a few miles from Nescopek. yup, you guessed it, PPL (the company that owns the nuke plant) is expanding it and building a third reactor. i have to ask, which would you rather have in your backyard?

andy b.

A.K. Boomer
10-24-2007, 10:41 AM
Tesla would do something radical and charge the entire ionosphere and then we wouldnt even need to throw a switch as he would design certain light bulbs to pluck the power out of the air ---------


Oh wait,,, he already lit up the town of telluride colorado that way...


Just 40 miles from where I live is where N.T. conducted some of his first massive Tesla coil experimentations, form them he formed calculations of the earths size and mass,,,,,, he would send an ungodly amount of power into the earth with one of his coils, the earth would imediatly swallow it up, but there would be an ever so slight rebound effect that he could record, he got it down to the tee --- then he started pulsing another wave at perfect timing, the next wave that came back was a little stronger, he kept building and building, the records show that he had bolts of electricity shooting 15 feet out of fire hydrants --- He had his shop right next to the Colorado springs power plant so he could tap all thier energies without losses, he did not know when to quit however and the springs power plant generator had a meltdown,,,,,,, They banned him from further energy usage. This is what I remember reading -- the facts may not be right on the money as it was many beers I mean years ago...

Swarf&Sparks
10-24-2007, 12:01 PM
The PSTN is SDH tho, (synchchronous digital hierarchy)
You could do it on the phone :D

HTRN
10-24-2007, 02:40 PM
i also have a story for you. i'm originally from up near Hazleton, PA. there is a small community there in Nescopek. a company wanted to put in a windfarm, but the community objected because, well, big old windmills just don't look nice. this is a community of basically farmland. one, who cares about a few 140' windmills in the middle of a field? two, they wouldn't be bothering anyone. my family and i were talking about it and all of us felt like Boomer that it actually would be pretty cool to live near a windfarm (for basically the same reasons Boomer mentioned). in fact, i just find the sleek modern windmills to be darn cool looking.

here's the kicker. there is a nuclear plant in Berwick, PA, just a few miles from Nescopek. yup, you guessed it, PPL (the company that owns the nuke plant) is expanding it and building a third reactor. i have to ask, which would you rather have in your backyard?

andy b.

Andy are you referring to the Windfarm up near Waymart? Then I got some bad news for you - the people living around it hate it - it makes a bit of noise, which makes the houses surrounding the property unsaleable. Also, the company got into a huge lawsuit with Wayne County - The County wanted to tax them as a regular power generator, but the Company was claiming some exception to it due to some wierd wording of the law, and the fact that Feds tax them differently(In fact, the company sort of sheepishly admitted that if they were taxed the same way Coal and Nuclear plants are, the windfarms would be nonviable.)


HTRN

tattoomike68
10-24-2007, 07:23 PM
The Stateline wind farm is an incredible sight. The windmills parallel the highway for mile upon mile; the must be stretched out for at least ten or fifteen miles. At one time is was said to be the largest windmill farm in the world. TattooMike68, do you know if this is still so?

Orrin

I think there are bigger ones under construction but if we kept adding turbines it will stay the biggest in the world.

The columbia river gorge should be lined with them, its so windy there that if the wind stopped all at once everyone would fall over. :D

fahnoe
10-24-2007, 07:40 PM
Perhaps if it all was synced on a Internet waveform?


Not possible. The time delay (latency) of packets sent on the internet is inherently variable and unpredictable. That's how it works and was designed to work. It can't be changed. Even packets in the same group can take different routes and arrive out of order. That's why packets have sequence numbers. Also, at each node along the way is an Ethernet network. Ethernet is also asynchronous with variable delays. The delay on an Ethernet lan is determined by not just the distance between the furthest apart clients on the network but also by random number generators in the NICs. Again, inherently unpredictable.

Certainly accurate points about packet propagation, however, considering the precision that system clocks can be synchronized via NTP, I suspect something could well be devised to allow frequency synchronization via the 'net. Add in some GPS receivers as local time sources as well and you can augment the time you pull from the other clocks. For further reference The NTP FAQ and HOWTO (http://www.ntp.org/ntpfaq/NTP-a-faq.htm)

--Larry

andy_b
10-24-2007, 09:45 PM
Andy are you referring to the Windfarm up near Waymart?


no, the Waymart one is farther north (up near Scranton). this place is about 30 or 40 miles south of there. i understand what you mean about some noise, but like i said, a big cornfield with nothing but cornfields and trees around it shouldn't be a problem. i kind of like the swooshing blade sounds, so i don't know if it would bother me. i'm sure some people would complain about the sounds of a babbling brook if they lived near one. :)

andy b.

Dawai
10-24-2007, 10:31 PM
Imagine this, you fire up your power plant, the power lines are black.. six hundred miles of loads on distribution lines awaiting you to flip the switch. Near dead short.

Think it'll hold?

I'll look as soon as this headache passes for a auto switch closure on youtube. They arc under little load. Makes the hair on your neck stand up. Ozone in the air.

Tesla? he had a way of injecting a physical vibratory waveform into the ground, to synchronize the natural electricity of the earth into a usable form ac at a frequency. I looked at one of his patents for hours trying to figure out how it worked, then it occurred to me, What I was looking at was a tuning fork across the transformer coils with points on the tips.. you struck it, as the 60hz harmony came in, the points stabilized, the transformer hum kept the tuning fork going.. Perfect genius.. except for the dirty points that would occur.. imagine filing them rascals for a precision fix? The natural dc power generated and stored in the capacitive plates by the earth is less than a volt. Some step up transformer needed huh? A ground rod and lightning rod was needed. Also, dry air such as in Colorado.