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View Full Version : big shaper in action - folks are always asking to see one



andy_b
10-22-2007, 10:18 PM
after watching the rookie thread cutting video, i was poking around youtube and found this. it's about the size of my old G&E shaper, and functions almost identically. i remember a few questions on how the cutting bit moves and what the clapper box does. in the video you can hear the clapper box slap back into place at the end of each backstroke. in a few scenes you can see it. one thing i noticed is on my shaper, i believe the ram moves forward when the drive-dog on the big gear is on top. in this video the ram moves forward when the drive dog is on the bottom. you'll understand if you watch the video (and don't already know what i mean). i haven't taken the side covers off my shaper in a while and watched it run, but at least i thought that was how it worked. theoretically the shaper should run in reverse, but the table traverse would be backwards (mine operates correctly, so my motor is running correctly).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BZYe-b-iGb0&NR=1

anyway, i just thought it was a cool video.

andy b.

Optics Curmudgeon
10-22-2007, 10:31 PM
Yep, he's running it backwards. Love the crank left in the stroke adjust, too.

Joe

dp
10-22-2007, 10:45 PM
When I filmed my shaper vid I made sure to highlight the arm to show it's running the right direction - directly as a result of watching this vid :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZFFYIvTLiE

And I have better music - hehehe

BTW, I think you hear the clapper because the table moves during the cut - the cutter is dragging back on uncut metal. Mine claps only if it rides over chips because there's nothing there on the return path.

tattoomike68
10-22-2007, 10:47 PM
I like youtube videos. I asked craig about adding the UBB code to the forum so we could see them in the post window and he said he would have the webmaster look into it.

It would make a simple code like BZYe-b-iGb0&NR

http://www.vbulletin.org/forum/showthread.php?t=142236

He could do it himself by going to admin>forums and moderation>general>edit and click the "enable html" box.
Then the code would look like this...
<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/BZYe-b-iGb0&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/BZYe-b-iGb0&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>

It does not eat bandwith because the videos are streamed from youtube and it wont bug dial up users because they dont autoplay.

I wish this forums admins had some computer skills.

oldtiffie
10-22-2007, 10:49 PM
Thanks Andy.

I really did enjoy it - like old times.

What I did like though was that vice and the "adjustable" jaws.

It's rare to see a pic with the vice jaws parallel to the stroke even though they are frequently used that way.

That is a great way to "go slow, go deep, up feed and into it" for getting under and cleaning up oxy/acet (or plasma etc) cut edges as the shaper is one very powerful machine.

I was at my supplier's shop recently and they had a "fixed" and "movable" set of "vice jaws" that bolted directly to the mill (shaper) table and could utilise the whole length of the table. Had a sort or "angle-lock" device or arrangement on at least one jaw. It seems very "massive" and "built for real work". It effectively made the whole mill table into a big vice.

I should have had the camera with me - I will make sure I do next time and I will post the pics.

Thanks for the link - that is a great example of a shaper in action.

dp
10-22-2007, 10:54 PM
I like youtube videos. I asked craig about adding the UBB code to the forum so we could see them in the post window and he said he would have the webmaster look into it.

There's a problem with that - many people on dialup will be required to dl the vid even if they don't wish to see it. For example - a vid is buried on page 3 of a 6 page thread. When the dialup'er gets to page 3 his computer starts loading that pig and the next thing you know he's p*ssed.

It can also be hard on the server side if you're paying for bandwidth when people directly link your images - they're sucked down regardless of whether the viewer would like to see them or not, and it's a waste of server bandwidth to the image host to provide undesirable content. One of the worst things that can happen to a server is to be linked by Drudgereport.com - ask me how I know. It kills your online business for days.

tattoomike68
10-22-2007, 11:05 PM
[QUOTE=dp]There's a problem with that - many people on dialup will be required to dl the vid even if they don't wish to see it. For example - a vid is buried on page 3 of a 6 page thread. When the dialup'er gets to page 3 his computer starts loading that pig and the next thing you know he's p*ssed.

they're sucked down regardless of whether the viewer would like to see them or not, QUOTE]

The youtube mod is tested and does not work like that. The dial up users wont get bogged down because the stream has not started (you have to hit the Play button), it also causes no server load here because the files are not hosted here.

I admin two large notorious web sites that get nailed by trolls and hackers and if there were issues with it I would know about it.

Even the Home model engine forum on a cheesy free server will play the videos just fine.

dp
10-22-2007, 11:10 PM
I was just about to edit my post to "ammend and extend" my remarks :) - once the play button is hit the player will dl the entire file even if you hit the stop button. To truly stop it you have to leave the page. And I was also going to add that while youtube won't auto play that may not be true for all sites that offer vids and surely isn't the case for sites that offer vids that also don't use a video streaming server (I do so it's not a problem for me when I bother to use it). So it's still something to cogitate about, particularly when content leeches are so prevalent.

tattoomike68
10-22-2007, 11:14 PM
I will just have to ask sites tech about it. I can help if needed.

We could have some machine tool porn topics going on. :D

tattoomike68
10-22-2007, 11:21 PM
I did find this video of a big planer taking a long cut.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzsQnKJGYtk

dp
10-22-2007, 11:21 PM
I will just have to ask sites tech about it. I can help if needed.

We could have some machine tool porn topics going on. :D

Works for me - there could even be a T-shirt that says "Show us your nibs".

andy_b
10-22-2007, 11:32 PM
When I filmed my shaper vid I made sure to highlight the arm to show it's running the right direction - directly as a result of watching this vid :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZFFYIvTLiE

And I have better music - hehehe

BTW, I think you hear the clapper because the table moves during the cut - the cutter is dragging back on uncut metal. Mine claps only if it rides over chips because there's nothing there on the return path.

cool vid of yours! i never saw it before.

on mine if i have the autofeed engaged, the table moves just as the ram is at the end of the backstroke. in the shaper books i have it specifically warns not to manually move the table while the ram is moving over it (either forward or back). i'm guessing chunks of cutter would go flying before anything else does. :) i think the clapper clapping may depend on the angle the cutter is ground, the wear on the machine, and maybe even if you're running the motor backwards.

and yes, i liked how the ram stroke adjusting wrench was left in the adjusting hole. that's just asking to whack a leg or arm.

andy b.

dp
10-22-2007, 11:45 PM
I did find this video of a big planer taking a long cut.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzsQnKJGYtk

You could make a hell of a lot of Aloris cutter holder blanks with that.

Forrest Addy
10-23-2007, 12:41 AM
What a laugh. Most every thing possible to do wrong on a shaper is visible in the video. Beside the machine motor running backwards (there an arrow on the belt cover; sheesh) and thus isn't lubricating:

- he left the stroke adjuster crank on the stem major safety item but he might have done so purposely to show how the bullgear rotates (backwards in this case). It needed a placard with a "don't do this in your shop" disclaimer.

- the cut is being fed towards the movable jaw of the vise - a general no-no,

- the clapper box angle should be tilted opposite the feed direction so it relieves away from the shoulder,

- the tool tray is full of junk ready to jam the cross slide from feeding (until something breaks),

- the machine ram ways and probably the rest of the working parts are dirty,

- it's a slow rough cut (with HSS you should be getting brownish chips), I'd feed that cut 1/16" per stroke at 70 strokes per minute - or I would if the motor was running the right direction.

- it's hard to see but I think the tool might have too much end clearance and the toolholder has a built in 10 degree tool rake angle. Neutral rake tools work best in shapers and planers but they are very hard to find.

- and it looks like a couple of NEC violations on the electrical.

Outside of that this video is a good example of not having your ducks in a row in the glaring light of public exposure. All this stuff I learned from Eldon Struve in my first day as a 19 year old apprentice when I started my career in shapers July 11th 1961, a day which will live in infamy.

Adding after the fact. I think the guy who did the referenced shaper video may have been inexperienced because so many rooky mistakes and safety points are present. If he tunes in here I hope he'll take the hassle with a good spirit. That's the fate of a rooky who innocently screws up: he gets ridiculed by the very people who wish to help him mend his ways. They made the same mistakes in their day and got it in the neck from their mentors. Chagrin shortens the feedback loop.

Tinkerer
10-23-2007, 01:07 AM
Forest if you thought that one was bad... this one should make your cringe. :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3Hgb98xxFc

dp
10-23-2007, 01:24 AM
Can't believe how much time he spends with flesh on cutting tool. His mother should have told him he's going to put his eye out.

But A+++ on tunes.

tattoomike68
10-23-2007, 01:27 AM
Forest if you thought that one was bad... this one should make your cringe. :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3Hgb98xxFc

Oh yes , grabbing chips from a running machine is plain stupid.

Tinkerer
10-23-2007, 01:32 AM
Can't believe how much time he spends with flesh on cutting tool. His mother should have told him he's going to put his eye out.

But A+++ on tunes.


Oh yes , grabbing chips from a running machine is plain stupid.

It's a wonder the guy nickname's not Stubby... yankin' tinsel like that.

Forrest Addy
10-23-2007, 01:44 AM
I agree, Tattoo Mike, that's a good vid of a planer competently run. He's making a press brake die roughing down the far shoulder to expose metal from which to machine the punch details of the die set.

Note the tool holder and how its offset to put the tool's cutting edge behind the shank. Thus the tool doesn't tend to dig in. Any deflection is in the "relief" direction.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pzsQnKJGYtk

The guy running the machine is dogging it. He's using about 1 HP of what is probably a 50 HP machine. If it was me running the shop, I'd be on the operator's case to make blue chips and plenty of them until he got to 1/16" of the finish profile then he can make wispy silver chips. There are clever double tool holders commonly used in press brake shops to make stock reductions on both sides of a profile in long skinny parts. Time is money in a machine shop.

That dufus facing off aluminum disks is boring. I would have though the last machinist would deal with some old guy in a line shaft shop at least or some middle aged guy on a vertical boring mill goinglike hell roughing a big round forging with both rail heads and a side head working the machine to 95% of its rated HP. Or maybe line boring a double suction pump in a horizontal boring mill setting the tool just so to hold a 0.0005 tolerance..

DickDastardly40
10-23-2007, 02:47 AM
a day which will live in infamy.

Infamy, Infamy, they've all got it Infamy!:D

Haven't seen any of the videos yet as I can't stream youtube at work but nicely critiqued everyone, I'll look forward to them.

Al

dp
10-23-2007, 03:03 AM
I think that was "... a date which will live in infamy..."

Davek0974
10-23-2007, 04:19 AM
That dufus facing off aluminum disks is boring. I would have though the last machinist would deal with some old guy in a line shaft shop at least or some middle aged guy on a vertical boring mill goinglike hell roughing a big round forging with both rail heads and a side head working the machine to 95% of its rated HP. Or maybe line boring a double suction pump in a horizontal boring mill setting the tool just so to hold a 0.0005 tolerance..

Now THAT I would like to see :)

I have seen the results of a finger after the owner tried to pull a swarf string clear, it grabbed in the chuck and fought back. The swarf won as usual.:eek:

Dave

Spin Doctor
10-23-2007, 10:15 AM
On a shaper or planer the ram should always run faster on the return stroke than on the forward. It is always best to have the cross feed running towards the solid vise jaw. The top of the clapper box tilts away from the feed direction. And as for chips, You call those wiskers chips (planer vid excluded). A shaper can reduce stock faster than any machine besides a saw. Unless it was a finish cut we always took at least .250" with .010" feed. Make those puppies go "tink" when the tool reaches the end of the cut.

PS the #1 required accessory with a shaper is a broom to corral all those chips, plus while we had a really nice Cinccy I really liked the two Rockford Hydraulic models we had. The cutter speed could be dialed in just where you wanted.

thistle
10-23-2007, 10:32 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/mudskipper/LWF0001.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/mudskipper/clapper.jpg

Forrest Addy
10-23-2007, 10:41 AM
Yup. That's how to do it in black and white. Eldon Struve was right. What's the source, Thistle? The illustrations are great.

thistle
10-23-2007, 10:44 AM
cant remember right now ,will look when i get home -
theres more i meant to scan- but then i mean to do a lot of thingsand then more things come along .......

Thomas Staubo
10-23-2007, 05:10 PM
When I filmed my shaper vid I made sure to highlight the arm to show it's running the right direction - directly as a result of watching this vid :)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZFFYIvTLiE

And I have better music - hehehe


I almost fell asleep in front of my computer while watching that video :D
Of course, the lovely lullaby was a contributing factor, but watching the shaper action... Zzz Zzzz

Great video, by the way!. How did you make that special effect with the note book, at the beginning? (what program?)

dp
10-23-2007, 05:27 PM
I almost fell asleep in front of my computer while watching that video :D
Of course, the lovely lullaby was a contributing factor, but watching the shaper action... Zzz Zzzz

Great video, by the way!. How did you make that special effect with the note book, at the beginning? (what program?)

All artistic credit goes to Apple and the iMovie proggie that comes with any new Mac. The opening and fades were all canned events in the tool. I just juggled stuff a bit to get the music to remain somewhat in tempo with the machine.

The artist doing the singing, Leokane Pryor (lives and performs in Santa Barbara, CA), did that a cappella, and is all the voices you hear. In fact everything you hear is his voice. The rest of the CD is pretty good, too, fully instrumented, and less likely to put you to sleep :). Maunahele, http://Mele.com/.

Malama pono, o Hawai`i!

lazlo
10-23-2007, 06:02 PM
I noticed this neat little tabletop planer in the related videos section. It's a "Selig Sonnenthal":

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VCnCKDqAiIo

I also noticed this video of a guy hobbing gears with a shaper and a rotating indexer (similar process to the Fellows Gear Hobber), like the MEW article:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=adRlGffXM5k

aboard_epsilon
10-23-2007, 06:33 PM
Forest if you thought that one was bad... this one should make your cringe. :eek:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3Hgb98xxFc

wow cant believe that guy

watched the whole vid right to end ...


just to count how many times he did things completely wrong ...


that vid should be shown to newbie machinists with commentary or subtitles ...what he's doing wrong and what the consequences will be .

vid should also be shown to his insurance company ..bet they will think twice about insuring him then.

heres what i spotted

disk should be put into soft jaws that are cut to the right depth

no way should he pull strings of chips out by hand

onto circular cut-off saw ......
left running whilst he reloaded ...hands coming close to disk

onto milling machine ...

also left running ...whilst changing parts ...

guessed centre of disks to drill them.

onto angle grinder ...
part held by hands ...not vice
angle grinder held in one hand ...needs both hands all the time ...
grinder put down on bench ...should have been stopped before getting put down ..

there are loads more mistakes ...its like the video was made ...to show how many things he could do wrong ...
have a look yourselves ...and see how many more you can spot.

because there are more .

imagine a young kid watching that and thinking ...this was the normal way to work !!!!!

all the best.mark

Fasttrack
10-23-2007, 09:34 PM
Hey DP

Awsome video!! Thanks for posting it - i enjoyed it immensly.

dp
10-24-2007, 02:34 AM
Hey DP

Awsome video!! Thanks for posting it - i enjoyed it immensly.

Thank you! Sorry it didn't have the manly chips that someone else mentioned - I was testing some finishing cutters when I taped it and ended up with these little girly chips :)