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A.K. Boomer
10-27-2007, 11:37 PM
Not too often i get to say that anymore, So i get the Subie heads milled and bolted on, replace the clutch components, engine hanging by my beam and comealong ---- now its time to push the car back in the garage, trouble is is I cant, tried, too heavy, call my neighbor and he's not home so I leave a message, go back out and try my two to one leverage trick by pushing on the top of the tire, still a no go, cant get car over last 1" lip at top of an already steep driveway,,, Dammit, shut down due to a technicality ------- cant call a friend cuz its saturday and thier either all out drinkin or the ones that aint are in re-hab, Thinkin --- what other ways can i gain leverage on this POS, then it hits me --- duh---- you got the engine out dummy, two minutes later I got a 12 point deep well that fits perfectly on the 24 spline trans/clutch input shaft with my breaker bar and the car in first gear, walla, cars in garage, murphy's law states that someone will indeed show up --- but it wont be when you need them, enter the nieghbor, good guy, never got to stab a trans, now he has....;)

darryl
10-28-2007, 02:59 AM
Well, that was an elegant solution to the problem! Reminds me of the time I had the land cruiser in a predicament, on the edge of a cliff and looking like it was going to go over. Nobody would ride the 'high' side to help prevent a tipover, and I wasn't going to drive it over the slide. I ended up using the hand crank and the tranny in low gear- turned the engine over enough times to roll it over the bad part

We did not come back that way.

oldtiffie
10-28-2007, 05:41 AM
I presume that these 2 posts refer to "manual" transmissions.

What if they were "auto"? (Presuming that there is no "straight-through" drive in the transmission). Lever in the universal joints?

Your Old Dog
10-28-2007, 07:49 AM
------- cant call a friend cuz its saturday and thier either all out drinkin or the ones that aint are in re-hab, Thinkin ---

ROFLAMO! :D Thanks for the good laugh!!

platypus2020
10-28-2007, 12:00 PM
------- cant call a friend cuz its saturday and thier either all out drinkin or the ones that aint are in re-hab, Thinkin ---

Recent news reports about some celebrities, have shown you can still drink and be in rehab at the same time, and still get a large part of society to feel sorry for you. :eek:

Jack

aboard_epsilon
10-28-2007, 03:23 PM
it was in the back of your sub conscious mind ...you mentioned beer drinking as well ..see i know :)

after watching a film many years ago called "Ice cold in Alex"

were they used the starting handle to back an ambulance up a sand dune.

2 minjs and 21 sec in

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UV6HiNTN3MI

all the best.mark

Mark Hockett
10-28-2007, 04:11 PM
Boomer,
What model and year Subie, I was a Subaru tech at a dealer for 12 years.

Forrest Addy
10-28-2007, 04:48 PM
Hard to figure the truth behind some things. I got a feeler in an eMail to teach scraping in China. I trashed it without response as being most likely bogus.

Then I got to thinking: I bet China and India are the last repositories of industrial scale scraping. Everyone else in the industrial world has machine tool technology so accurate they don't need scraping for fitting purposes and materials they don't need it for developing bearing.

John Stevenson
10-28-2007, 05:30 PM
Forrest,
Sorry to tell you but China is streets ahead of us at the moment on machinery acquisition and quality of.

When I was at the Canton show in April just as an exercise I asked how old Sieg's slideway grinder was. Hurried muttering between the tech guys and the interpretor, then the interpretor came back with "Which one ?" so I opped for the oldest. I was told two years old, the newest were 3 months old and they had two more Swiss grinders coming shortly.

Bear in mind that Myford's one and only slideway grinder is now over 50 years old................

.

oldtiffie
10-28-2007, 08:12 PM
Forrest,
Sorry to tell you but China is streets ahead of us at the moment on machinery acquisition and quality of.

When I was at the Canton show in April just as an exercise I asked how old Sieg's slideway grinder was. Hurried muttering between the tech guys and the interpretor, then the interpretor came back with "Which one ?" so I opped for the oldest. I was told two years old, the newest were 3 months old and they had two more Swiss grinders coming shortly.

Bear in mind that Myford's one and only slideway grinder is now over 50 years old................

.

Well, well John.

That should start things running.

At best? Heresy!!

At worst? There IS no worst!!

You should be a penitent in ashes and sack-cloth, practice self-flagellation, "Confess", seek absolution and just face up to eternal damnation - its unavoidable.

I'm in there with you.

The Inquisition is coming!!

Perhaps not.

I think that your "Revelation" may be the "Genesis" of blowing all (or some??) of the "facts", tenets, shiboleths, "believers" - and "the Inquisition" - "out of the water".

Back to the Catacombs? or the desert?

I bought some hand tools (spanners mainly - quite range of them) in Hong Kong in 1958/9 and I use them yet. Not a problem at all, very reliable in fact. They have a black forged and milled finish. I've had just short of 50 years out of them. Only problem is the brand name ("Fukung") which is a good "out" when you ask someone to pass the "effen" spanner!!. But just about anything else from China was crap then - but not now.

I am the first to admit that I am "easy" on my tools as compared to a "real" shop - but as I said - I bought them for what I do - and they do it. I won't criticize others for deciding differently as it is their choice, which I respect - just as I have my choice, which I hope will be respected likewise.

I have been amazed at how accurate and serviceable a lot - most really - of the China stuff is and its good value for money for use in my shop for what I want to pay.

There are and always will be the "baddies" - but that's the case everywhere.

Sure - there are lot and lots of what most of us would quite rightly regard as absolute $hit as well - but we are in a "free market" "international" "multi-national" corporate and funding/banking/commercial world and people are quite entitled to and are able to buy - so-called - "really good cheap" stuff just about anywhere- as they will, and do.

Where there is a demand someone will fill the gap and make a profit out of it. I have no problems with that at all. There are "up-sides" and "down-sides" everywhere.

It's too easy to fasten onto a specific case and then generalise on it without confirming the validity of that assumption either in a specific instance or over time.

I have been through the days of the "Brit" vs "Yank" everything - cars, bikes, hand and machine tools etc - just about everything - and both sides were "anti" the other and the rest of us just had to put up with it and almost be the cannon-fodder and the filling in a s*hit sandwich as it was battled out. Its still going on to some extent!!!

And not to mention the post-war anti-European and anti-Japanese lot - based on war-time perceptions and not on the quality of the product coming from there.

There was some very good stuff - and a bloody lot of absolute rubbish - came out of the Communist/"Red"/Russia/Soviet bloc as well - "Tos" is but one example of a fine example - there are others.

The quality, quantity and cost of stuff coming out of Asia is astounding!! Its not as if its occured over-night or just "snuck up on us" either!!

The UK and OZ were caught out by sticking with outdated attitudes, excess tariff "protection", and out-date technology as the rest of the the world re-equipped and set off to chase us - and did - and left us in their dust and passed us by. Much of our "industry" was relegated to the "rust-belt" and "scrap-heap" catagory through nobodies fault but out own. Its been a costly lesson. "Catching up" is quite a task. We were not and are not alone in that regard either!!

So lets be sensible and just stick to the product as regards suitability for purpose and value for money - irrespective of its source or how or under what conditions it may or may not have been produced.

Thanks for the post.

A.K. Boomer
10-28-2007, 10:37 PM
Boomer,
What model and year Subie, I was a Subaru tech at a dealer for 12 years.



Did you see many blown head gaskets on the 2.5 DOHC? thats what this is - a 98 legacy/outback, seems to be a prob. also --- I dont know a Subie manual trans. that doesnt "chirp" like a bird from the clutch arm, you gotta constantly keep them lubed, its like they all have warped pressure plates or something, what a cake engine to pull though, good design that way.

A.K. Boomer
10-28-2007, 11:25 PM
it was in the back of your sub conscious mind ...you mentioned beer drinking as well ..see i know :)

after watching a film many years ago called "Ice cold in Alex"

were they used the starting handle to back an ambulance up a sand dune.

2 minjs and 21 sec in

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UV6HiNTN3MI

all the best.mark


Now there's a guy with a good memory:)

I cant believe the music --- what drama...


Im sure its been done to death, I was thinking it was a first for me but now im not so sure (now theres a guy with a bad memory:( )
I seem to recall clamping a pair of vise grips on a VW bugs input shaft --- I dont know if it was just for kicks or if I really had to get it somewhere:o

It kind of surprised me, it wasnt as easy as I thought it would be, could have used for it to be the older subie with the hi-low range, Ive got allot more respect for the amount of torque that has to go through that dinky shaft and light up all four tires off the line on dry pavement...

Mark Hockett
10-29-2007, 01:53 AM
Boomer,
Subaruís are wonderful to work on. I have also worked at Ford, Toyota, Mazda, Nissan, BMW, Hyundai and Kia dealerships, the reason for so many different brands is many of the dealerships were multiple lines. Subaru was by far the easiest vehicle to work on. They don't have trucks, large SUVs or 15 different models to mess with and all the engines and control systems are very similar.

On the clutch noise there can be many things that cause that but one thing to check is the snout the throw out bearing rides on. If its worn they make a repair sleeve and throw out bearing to fix it. Also make sure you lube it well with a good moly grease.


2.5L head gaskets are a problem. One thing to look at when itís apart is the cylinder block deck, they become distorted if they get hot, if itís not flat then it will need a new short block. Subaru had a campaign on the head gasket problem were they would add a bottle of cooling system conditioner to the coolant. Make sure when you put the vehicle back together you add the Subaru cooling system conditioner, I think its under $10.

The warranty on the head gaskets was extended to 8 years and 100,000 miles but if the vehicle is a 98 its probably out of warranty, although they change the rules all the time so it might be worth calling the dealer, giving them your VIN number and letting them run it in their system. Sometimes the dealers will also goodwill the repair if you are a steady service customer. Here is some info on the campaign,

"NUMBER: WWP-99

DATE: 02/2004

APPLICABILITY:
2000-2002MY Subaru Legacy and Outback;
1999-2002MY Impreza; 1999-2002MY Forester

SUBJECT:
Engine Cooling System Conditioner

INTRODUCTION

Subaru of America, Inc. (SOA) has determined that over time, affected vehicles may develop small external coolant leaks at engine cylinder head gaskets. This is the result of normal expansion and contraction of engine components caused by the heating and cooling of these parts. To prevent cylinder head gasket leaks from developing or to correct existing leaks, a special Subaru Cooling System Conditioner should be added to affected vehicle cooling systems.

This Service Program will involve adding one bottle of Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner to the engine cooling system.

AFFECTED VEHICLES

2000-2002 MY Subaru Legacy and Outback with 2.5L engine.

1999-2002 MY Impreza with 2.5L engine.

1999-2002 MY Forester with 2.5L engine.

Affected vehicles are identified in the VIN range chart below. Only vehicles with a 2.5L engine are affected.

NOTE :Prior to performing repairs, confirm coverage for potentially affected vehicles by using the Vehicle Coverage Inquiry in the Dealer Communication System (DCS).

Vehicles identified in the preceding chart may include VINs that were not distributed in the U.S. market. Dealers will be provided a list of VINs that include the owner name and address. This information will enable dealers follow-up with owners of potentially affected vehicles. These listings contain owners names and addresses obtained from State Motor Vehicle Registration Records. The use of such motor vehicle registration data for any other purpose is unlawful. Accordingly dealers are urged to limit the use of this listing only for the purpose of completion of this service program.

OWNER NOTIFICATION

SOA prepare and mail an Owner Notification Letter to owners of the affected vehicles. Because of the number of vehicles affected and parts availability, owner notification will occur on or about the dates listed in the following four stages.

1999 MY - February 16, 2004
2000 MY - March 1, 2004
2001 MY - April 1, 2004
2002 MY - May 3, 2004

A copy of the owner notification letter is included at the end of this bulletin.

OWNER REIMBURSEMENT FOR PREVIOUS REPAIRS

Owners are being advised in the owner notification letter, found at the end of this bulletin, that if they have previously paid an authorized Subaru dealer for repairs related to this Service Program, they may be entitled to reimbursement. The owners are further advised, to qualify for any reimbursement they must submit the original repair invoice to Subaru of America, Inc. Please review the owner notification letter, which explains this procedure so that you are familiar with it, and can assist owners with any questions.

FUTURE MAINTENANCE

In the future, it will be necessary to add Genuine Subaru Coding System Conditioner to the coding system of affected vehicles whenever the engine coolant is replaced. As a reminder, owners will be sent update pages with their notification letter that instructs them to add the pages to their Owner's Manual and Warranty and Maintenance Booklet Except for the initial application associated with this campaign, the cost of adding the conditioner is the owner's responsibility.

CYLINDER HEAD GASKET WARRANTY EXTENSION

For owners of affected vehicles that have this Service Program performed promptly, SOA is extending coverage under the Subaru Limited Warranty for cylinder head gasket external coolant leaks to a period of 8 years or 100,000 miles, whichever occurs first Warranty coverage begins on the date the vehicle was delivered to the first retail purchaser. If the vehicle was used as a demonstrator or company vehicle before being sold at retail, warranty coverage begins on the date the vehicle was first placed in such service.

As a further condition for this extended warranty coverage to apply, the owner must properly maintain the vehicle's cooling system in accordance with the recommended maintenance schedule and Genuine Subaru Cooling System Conditioner must be added each time the engine coolant is replaced. Resulting damage caused by a lack of maintenance or low coolant level will not be covered. Replacement of the Cooling System Conditioner during inspection and maintenance services is not covered under warranty.

DEALER PROGRAM RESPONSIBILITY

Dealers are to promptly service vehicles subject to this Service Program at no charge to the vehicle owner regardless of mileage, age of the vehicle, or ownership.

For affected vehicles sold after the date on the dealer's computer list, dealers are to contact those owners and provide them with a copy of the owner notification letter. They should also arrange to make the required correction according to the instructions in the service procedure section of this bulletin."






If you need the rest of the instructions or any other repair information. Let me know. You can also call me if you need quick info, my number is on my web site.

TECHSHOP
10-29-2007, 06:56 AM
and looking foward to his retirement.

A.K. Boomer
10-29-2007, 11:36 AM
Mark, what a wealth of info, thank you for taking the time, The vehicle has 149,000 on it so it sounds like its well out of thier radar, Im not sure if that would even matter as he's not the original owner and also Will not let anyone touch his vehicles but me, Its so strange that you bring this up as I always go OEM when it comes to cam and crank seals --- which usually means N.O.K. -- very good quality seals, and I also went OEM head gaskets as they were even cheaper than I could get a fel-pro,,,, So I actually called 2 dealers for prices, and while I had them on the horn I asked them if these things had a problem with H.gaskets, these were parts guys, both stated "not anything out of the ordinary" and that was that,,, Im trying to get this guy by, his head was dished .0015" and the block was dished .0015" The all steel head gasket was .003" thinnner in the area of head to block deviation, It apears that like you state its an expansion/contraction problem --- there is fretting on the gasket and head and block surfaces --- Even the other cylinders have it so its looks to me like an inherent design flaw thats almost guaranteed to not give problems until much later down the road, Also, it apears to take the weakest link as one would expect, its alloy head and a sleeved alloy block with a steel gasket, there is obviously an expansion ratio difference, but it favors fretting down at the hottest part of the head where the exhaust valves are, The theory that the extra heat would also cause a total expansion in this area and therefore increase the head bolt tension in this area is something to consider as of course thier steel bolts, but, thier steel expansion bolts, so unit pressure does not really increase all that much, I milled both heads ------- talked it over with him and his expence would have been well over double if I had to dissasemble and take some off the block, Deck hight would have been fine because it was so little of a problem, We worked in an overdue clutch job that he was in dire need of for no additional labor to speak of,
I am going to cover him for "awhile" but there is also an understanding that while im willing to put my ass on the line its also in an effort to save him money as I could have ran up a hell of a bill and not took a chance like im taking, That being said - on the flip side he's also paying me to make an educated guess, so yes im obligated to give it the best odds of survival and yet stay within an appropriate price range,
He's very cool about it and actually is one of the rare people who has an understanding, The new subie head gaskets look "updated"
If they have not taken care of the frett problem I do expect this will indeed occure again, I also expect #1 cyl. to get a slight jump on the others, We shall see, As for right now its a total seal, the coolant level is remaining the same (save for the normal expansion rates due to heating and cooling)
there is not a thimble full of combustion air in the system and the high quality daiken clutch pack i put in is flawless and has no wiggle on the clutch arm which indicates that both daiken disc and pressure plate are running true, Valeo components came out of it and were a mess, there is a section on the pressure plate that looks as if it never has "touched down" in 149,000 miles, it shook the clutch arm so bad that it wore out the throwout bearing retainer clips, This is not an isolated incident, just about every one of them that iv had in my shop has this "tweedy bird" sound, either as it sits there idleing or with just a little pressure on the clutch pedal...

Daiken is OEM on many honda's and toyota's, i work on just about anything Japaneese (except mitusbishi:( ) From my personal experience both honda and toyota are a cut above Subie, which is still good stuff but is stuck right in there with nissan in a respectible second place...

There is a "hide chapper" in all of this, What if? what if this car would have fell into the dealer warranty, did the parts guys know? was it just by the year i gave them? they did not ask the milage, (Its part of the reason I asked the question)
If they dont let me know How am I supposed to find out...... well besides you of course:p

If you ask if they had a problem in this area are they not obligated to tell you? and furthermore tell you of any potentual recalls?


Edit; I just re-read your post and it apears that its not just a year off but states that 2000 to 2002 legacy/outback, So maybe they heard me state the year and did not feel "obligated" to even bring it up,

On the coolant additive, it sounds like a wonderful coagulant, and that might take care of the external seepage problems they may have but will do nothing at stopping combustion pressures, still, im looking for a good coagulant to use, its the only thing I will use for scetchy cooling systems --- I wont put aluminum chunks or pieces of wood into a cooling system (barrs leak or alumi-seal)