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DickDastardly40
10-30-2007, 08:54 AM
I'm not sure of their standing if any anywhere else in the world but in the UK, Record is considered a quality bench vice(vise) manufacturer. I was rather to stunned to see the outcome of trying to straighten an aluminium deck cleat. I was not even present, let alone the person providing the motive power, but was surprised to see a vice fail in this way. In the two later pictures you can see where the cleat was peeled from the deck shearing the weld by an impact and the bent cleat.

http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa317/DDastardly/Picture009.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa317/DDastardly/Picture007-1.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa317/DDastardly/Picture005-2.jpg
http://i199.photobucket.com/albums/aa317/DDastardly/Picture001-3.jpg

Al

aboard_epsilon
10-30-2007, 09:20 AM
probably made in calcutter ...painted in england

all the best.mark

JRouche
10-30-2007, 09:35 AM
Oh, I see the problem.. It say "made in England" on it. Didnt you see that before buying it.. Shoulda went with a reputable Chinese manufacture. ;)

That is odd, and Record is a good manufacture. Just how were you "trying" to straighten that part. Hmm, me thinks it was not the prescribed method to protect ones vise... JRouche

DickDastardly40
10-30-2007, 09:46 AM
That is odd, and Record is a good manufacture. Just how were you "trying" to straighten that part. Hmm, me thinks it was not the prescribed method to protect ones vise... JRouche

Unfortunately with a long lead time to procure a new item and the craft being required for training, often it's a case of 'needs must where the devil drives'.

Fortunately no-one was injured in either incident, which is the main thing.

Al

lazlo
10-30-2007, 10:08 AM
I was rather to stunned to see the outcome of trying to straighten an aluminium deck cleat.

Wow, now you have me worried Dick!

The Record plant in Sheffield closed down years ago, and Record Tools went out of business around 2003-2004.
Irwin (the American company) bought the Record name and turned the Sheffield office into the Irwin UK sales office, and immediately started outsourcing "Irwin-Record" tools to China.

I bought what I thought was a New Old Stock Record vise on Ebay back in 2004, but it sure looks a lot like the one that failed on you! :mad:

Alistair Hosie
10-30-2007, 10:15 AM
Shoulda went with a reputable Chinese manufacture.

or even better still made in Scotland were things are made properly first time :D I bought a groz milling vice because it was low profile and it did the same thing firstb time I tried to use it.I never got any answers to my many emails to groz so it "minus the jaws which I gave to a friend "went in the bin not the friend the vice:DAlistair

lazlo
10-30-2007, 10:19 AM
Shoulda went with a reputable Chinese manufacture.

Isn't that an oxymoron? :p

If that Sheffield vise is a counterfeit, then it probably was made in China.

A.K. Boomer
10-30-2007, 10:31 AM
. Just how were you "trying" to straighten that part. Hmm, me thinks it was not the prescribed method to protect ones vise... JRouche






I think this should be taken into consideration, look at the size of that deck cleat for one, Iv found that I can break about anything if I set my mind to it:D I think many of us take a vise for granted, its almost like the word vise translates to "indistructable" in the english language...

torsion is a vises worst enemy, many are meant to take direct load, but twisting the free jaw away from the dead one whilst under extreme load will cause one piece to try and get away from the other one sideways, Vises of that design are not very strong "sideways", not sure if thats what happend and the breaks actually look very uniform side to side like it was a direct load..

BadDog
10-30-2007, 03:24 PM
You also tend to break them with the jaw extended, and so providing more leverage (tortional, but down, in the stronger direction) against that part of the base. I broke a big ol' vise just like that years ago trying to press out the piston pin on a cracked 455 Pontiac piston. Learned my lesson, GET A PRESS FOR THAT STUFF! Might have been a good lesson for the operator of that vise. :D

Peter S
10-30-2007, 03:58 PM
I have seen two Record vises break, but still consider them to be good vises. The first was a No. 4, I was tightening it with the help of my boot, hefty kicks and not-inconsiderable weight. Eventually it broke! On reflection, I don't blame it.

The second was a No. 5, and the breaker was a little guy with a long length of pipe which turned him into Hercules. Once again, I don't blame the vise.

Over here the "single Number" Records eg No. 4,5 etc are reasonably priced (some times quite cheap) while some of their other models were more expensive and I think used stronger materials. Still a great vise, just don't use "power assist". I don't like their jaws as supplied (hard, sharp serrations which will mark everything they touch) but a session on a surface grinder fixes that.

Timleech
10-30-2007, 04:35 PM
I
Over here the "single Number" Records eg No. 4,5 etc are reasonably priced (some times quite cheap) while some of their other models were more expensive and I think used stronger materials. Still a great vise, just don't use "power assist". I don't like their jaws as supplied (hard, sharp serrations which will mark everything they touch) but a session on a surface grinder fixes that.

Some of the bigger models used to be described as 'unbreakable'. Those models were/are very expensive, though.

The Record name, along with Marples & one or two others which were in the same group, is now owned by Irwin, the local tool store recently had boxed sets of Marples wood chisels, with Irwin on the box, labelled 'Made in England'. Are they really?

Tim

matador
10-30-2007, 04:51 PM
Looking at the damage,it seems to me the user must have applied a BFH to the item held in the vise.The shock load would have been enough to fracture the cast iron.Horses for courses.

lazlo
10-30-2007, 06:01 PM
Looking at the damage,it seems to me the user must have applied a BFH to the item held in the vise.

You guys are making me feel better about what I think is an authentic Sheffield vise :)

Lew Hartswick
10-30-2007, 06:08 PM
Another case of using a tool for the WRONG job. Or vise a versa.
I hate to see a VISE used for a PRESS. Way too many folks do so.
...lew...

JRouche
10-30-2007, 09:29 PM
Another case of using a tool for the WRONG job. Or vise a versa.
I hate to see a VISE used for a PRESS. Way too many folks do so.
...lew...

Yeah, me too.. Haaa. Thats why I put some flat roller bearings at the screw flange face of my Starrett vise. So I don’t need to use the BFH. Hey! Thats what vises are for, clamping and over clamping parts. Never saw a shop where the vises were not abused, beating on parts held in the jaws.

My Starrett has seen way more load than it was designed for, never given up the ghost yet.

From the fractured metal pieces lying around the broken vise I would venture to say it had a whole LOT of addition force applied to it, maybe a moving force with some horsepower..

Hey, thats what they are for, they are tools to get the job done. When they don’t, you move on to the next heavier piece of iron in the shop and don’t look back..

That being said, I would be real upset it I broke my Starrett, I love the thing. It is a great tool.. JRouche


Oh, I do like that quick release for the screw on that Record, I have to crank for some time to get the throat openned up.. And that being said, I would not hesitate buying another English made Record vise, good vises..

oldtiffie
10-31-2007, 02:26 AM
I'm not sure of their standing if any anywhere else in the world but in the UK, Record is considered a quality bench vice(vise) manufacturer. I was rather to stunned to see the outcome of trying to straighten an aluminium deck cleat. I was not even present, let alone the person providing the motive power, but was surprised to see a vice fail in this way. In the two later pictures you can see where the cleat was peeled from the deck shearing the weld by an impact and the bent cleat.
.............................
...............................
...............................

Al

Hi Al.

Yes "Record" has a very well deserved good name in OZ - at least the vintage I am talking of.

The point of fracture is the place of most stress concentration and it was in tension and CI is not all that "flash" in tension. Being a casting doesn't help - but these vices were incredible given the abuse that they would take - for years.

I was surprised that the "quick-adjust/disconnect" nut or mechanism didn't fail first as they were a known weak point.

I have a "Dawn" which is an Australian-made "Record" (under license) or a "knock-off" version without the "quick-adjust" and even though it hasn't had a real tough life it has given me nearly 40 years service.

My next one - perhaps not too far off - will a fabricated steel (pressed, bent, welded) one with a flat machined on the top. They are China made - of course - and being steel (even China) is a better option than CI - and its much easier to repair or modify.

As soon as I saw that cleat failure, without even looking at the text, I thought "aluminium!!" - by the look of the break-failure a the weld - as that is a problem in a marine environment. Is the whole vessel aluminium? Its lucky I guess that a hole wasn't torn in the hull.

DickDastardly40
10-31-2007, 04:58 AM
Is the whole vessel aluminium? Its lucky I guess that a hole wasn't torn in the hull.

Unfortunately yes, still manages to tip the scale at 22 tons, however needs to be as light as possible to be used in davits.


Another case of using a tool for the WRONG job. Or vise a versa.
I hate to see a VISE used for a PRESS. Way too many folks do so.

Don't deny the wrong tool fro the job, but as I mentioned needs sometimes must!


From the fractured metal pieces lying around the broken vise I would venture to say it had a whole LOT of addition force applied to it, maybe a moving force with some horsepower.

No additional horsepower than a 5 footlong bar and 15 stone of bloke.

Thanks for your interest fellas.
Al

oldtiffie
10-31-2007, 05:50 AM
Unfortunately yes, still manages to tip the scale at 22 tons, however needs to be as light as possible to be used in davits.

Don't deny the wrong tool fro the job, but as I mentioned needs sometimes must!

No additional horsepower than a 5 footlong bar and 15 stone of bloke.

Thanks for your interest fellas.
Al

Al,
show e'm a what a Stoker can do with his "wheelie" (wheel-spanner) - its awe-some and scary!!

[Edit]
Couldn't resist a head-line for that story: "Vice bites Dusties "dusters"" - the eyes water.
[End edit]

Stoker's motto (the only polite one - LOTS of VERY rude ones): "If we were any tougher we'd rust".

Only bettered by Naval Clearance Divers!! (as the CD's inform me).

I won't discuss what a "You can't bend it" is either - but you can guess.

I can appreciate why aluminium is used on the vessel - both in the hull and the cleat - to quote yourself - "...... as needs must ........." which sums it up nicely.

Malc-Y
10-31-2007, 06:09 AM
I have never seen a Record vice break like that although i have seen them with bent handles. I have several Record vices in my workshop (2 No. 25, a No. 3, 2 No. 00, and a No. 414 drill press vice) and I recently sent a No. 23 (same as the broken one) to a genleman in Missouri who was willing to pay approximately $350 for it to be sent by UPS 6 day delivery service to get a top quality vice.

Malc.

oldtiffie
10-31-2007, 06:38 AM
I have never seen a Record vice break like that although i have seen them with bent handles. I have several Record vices in my workshop (2 No. 25, a No. 3, 2 No. 00, and a No. 414 drill press vice) and I recently sent a No. 23 (same as the broken one) to a genleman in Missouri who was willing to pay approximately $350 for it to be sent by UPS 6 day delivery service to get a top quality vice.

Malc.

Thanks Malc.

I'm glad you mentioned drill vices - "Record" in particular.

I have one bought new - the genuine article - about 35 years ago - and while its strong it sure isn't accurately made - but with a ruler or what-ever to counter the moving jaw 0.037" (37 "thou") uplift/"slack" it does OK on a drill press.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vyce_clamp1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vyce_clamp4.jpg


http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vyce_clamp6.jpg

But a much better one is a China job which might look rough but it works very well. The slides have adjustable gibs and lockable and despite the rough dials, the screws etc. are very good. The "slop" (not much) in the movable jaw can be "taken up" with a rule as in the pics. above.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/AirSmith05.jpg

I support the statements that the "real deal" "Record" bench vices are excellent and reliable - but my next one will be a pressed and welded steel job for reasons previously stated.

I have yet to decide as to whether I will go for one that is truly universal - round slider on movable jaw assembly; jaw assembly to pivot "left-right" and base to rotate on the steel base fixed to the bench. And that raises another "plus" for steel as opposed to CI - the option of welding it to a steel bench or support and removing it by grinding out the weld.

lazlo
10-31-2007, 09:15 AM
Yes "Record" has a very well deserved good name in OZ - at least the vintage I am talking of.

That's the old blue Record vises -- before they went out of business in 2003.

When Irwin bought the Record name and started making cheap copies in China, they were green (and not marked "Made in England").

Lew Hartswick
10-31-2007, 09:24 AM
Thanks Malc.

I'm glad you mentioned drill vices - "Record" in particular.

I have one bought new - the genuine article - about 35 years ago - and while its strong it sure isn't accurately made - but with a ruler or what-ever to counter the moving jaw 0.037" (37 "thou") uplift/"slack" it does OK on a drill press.

Surely you can shim the "hold down" under the body to remove a lot
of that. ?????
...lew...

oldtiffie
10-31-2007, 09:39 AM
Surely you can shim the "hold down" under the body to remove a lot
of that. ?????
...lew...
Thanks Lew.

That was my first response as well but it didn't work out. The movable jaw is fully rotatable and only has a small cylindrical "knob" on the extension that engages the underside of the "track" on which it slides. It is not one of those "T" or "bar" type of retainer.
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vyce_clamp4.jpg

Also as the "ways" are not accurately parallel, so even with good "shimming" the fixed jaw will "lift" under closing loads.

I just use the rule as a variation used in "Shaper vices".
It completely eliminates the "moving jaw uplift" problem - provided I am not too "heavy-handed".

Can also be used with 2 "rulers". Used on grinder vices as well. Have to be careful on th emill that I don't get "heavy-handed" otherwise it works fine.

Makes a cheap vice into something between a "better" and a "good" vice.

Swarf&Sparks
10-31-2007, 10:39 AM
Mick, have you tried the old "bit of round bar" trick with that vice?
A bit of round bar (obviously, not in the V notch) between the moving jaw and the work.
I have exactly the same Chiwanese X-Y vice on my DP and the round bar prevents any tendency to lift if a drill grabs. The work always seems to be firmly held against the fixed jaw.

oldtiffie
10-31-2007, 10:51 AM
Mick, have you tried the old "bit of round bar" trick with that vice?
A bit of round bar (obviously, not in the V notch) between the moving jaw and the work.
I have exactly the same Chiwanese X-Y vice on my DP and the round bar prevents any tendency to lift if a drill grabs. The work always seems to be firmly held against the fixed jaw.

Thanks Lin.

Yep - done that and it works too.

Best for rough stuff is a single 3/4" or there-abouts hardened steel ball with a say 1/4>3/8" flat ground on it and fitted between the moving jaw and the job (flat side to the jaw, round side to the job) - especially if the face being pressed on by the moving jaw is rough or what-ever. Just size balls to suit.

There is a bearing shop near here that stocks single balls.

Malc-Y
10-31-2007, 11:07 AM
The Record drill press vice is just that, a dril press vice, it's not meant to be a precision machine vice, there are plenty of those about for those who want them (I have four, 2 Abwood swivel base ones and 2 small Myford ones). The record drill press vice is mainly to persuade people not to use their hands to hold something while drilling a hole therein! :D

Malc. :cool:

quasi
10-31-2007, 04:36 PM
I have always thought Record vises were built a little "lightly" compared to the good American vises like Wilton, Athol ...

Swarf&Sparks
10-31-2007, 11:51 PM
Hey, Sikaflex is great stuff, but it aint gonna fix that vice :D

oldtiffie
11-01-2007, 01:33 AM
Hey, Sikaflex is great stuff, but it aint gonna fix that vice :D

Thanks Lin.

True - but that "Cobra" torch just might do it though.

DickDastardly40
11-01-2007, 06:47 AM
Hey, Sikaflex is great stuff, but it aint gonna fix that vice :D

Not nibbling on that bait, however I had moved it before snapping the pics, strange how it still found its way into the frame.

Al