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cybor462
11-06-2007, 11:21 PM
Well this is not the first time and may not be the last time I get rooked on ebay. :mad:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=230182327645&ssPageName=STRK:MEWN:IT&ih=013

I know it looked too good to be true. I just got the box today, was just a homemade box that they taped all over which was the only thing holding the em's in was tape. It was ripped and yep you guessed it instead of 40 em's I got 15. I got some empty plastic cases and the chuck and keyway cutters.

The only thing that was any good was the keyless chuck and 2 key cutters. All the rest of the cutters and 14 of the em's were all used and cooked. This seller stated that 90% of em's were brand new.

I emailed him and he said no refund. no price break, I asked for a refund full if he wanted or partial to make it fair and he told me to pound sand. :(
He said since he had a picture he is covered. That does not make much sense, as that does not change the fact he said new and they were all used and used up without re sharpening. :confused:

I was told here a few days ago to buy better stuff, I tried but as you see I got rooked.

I filed a claim with ebay and paypal, we will see where this goes.

wierdscience
11-06-2007, 11:39 PM
95.2% feedback on 19 transactions?That would turn me off right there.

But on the otherhand since a bunch went missing in transit if you paid for insurance maybe you have a claim.

cybor462
11-06-2007, 11:41 PM
He did not offer insurance. I feel since he did such a poor job with the box he would be responsible for the loss. I gotta take a pic of the box, it was not a box just cardboard all taped together. The tape ripped and well the rest is history.

sidegrinder
11-07-2007, 12:04 AM
Did you actually pay $23 dollars shipping? It's one thing to make a little extra as a "handling" charge--as long as everything is securely packed and arrives safely, but to gouge that much and package poorly/not insure...!@#$%!

cybor462
11-07-2007, 12:12 AM
Yeah I paid $23 bucks for shipping. It was clear he was trying to get more for the lot with high shipping. Heck when he first started the auction he had a 750.00 buy it now I believe.
Far cry from 72 bucks.

NickH
11-07-2007, 05:57 AM
You should have mentioned that a business trip was taking you close by and asked the seller if you could collect, if he says no, don't bid,
Regards,
Nick

Your Old Dog
11-07-2007, 06:20 AM
Wierd's right. This guy has absolutely nothing to loose by hosing you. With 95.2% feedback on 19 transactions I would never have ordered from him. Even the ones that read better I usually look at the last 10 items they've sold to see if they are significant. I also photograph any boxes I get if they show damage before I open them. This saved me a lot of money when I bought a stereo receiver and the factory shipping box was placed in a larger box with packing material. The factory box had one corner mangled. I photographed the entire setup and opened the box and the power supply for the receiver was so heavy it ripped the chassis nearly in half. I posted a web page detailing the pictures and emailed the link to the seller. The implication was this link would be my feedback for her if she didn't refund my money. I got no argument.

A.K. Boomer
11-07-2007, 08:25 AM
I may have just taken it in the shorts but its no real big deal, a new flycutter for 5 bucks and 5 bucks shipping, but it was well over a week ago so it could be to good to be true, Its funny, I hadnt been on e-bay in forever, I seen the flycutter and then the "buy it now" price, I bought it and paid for it and when it didnt arrive after a week I said to myself - ooppps, I didnt even check the guys rating, I went back and its either 96 or 98% Not terrible but stupid to not have checked.:o

wingnutt
11-07-2007, 10:24 AM
This Thread has re-newed my lack of faith in flee-bay,,
ive always been leary of it,
ill keep my tool buying binge at enco, or cdco, or such,,

sorry you got it in the shorts,
if he lives close by i can loan you my 24 pounder
IE

Pete H
11-07-2007, 10:50 AM
Fleabay has always been something of a crapshoot. First thing I ever bought was a burn - a fairly big one - but persistence paid off, and I got the seller to take it back. Since then, I haven't had any real problems, but I don't buy all that much stuff there, maybe 10x a year.

Sellers - the crooked ones - have gotten much slicker than before, but I think you have some recourse, based on that description. At least you can add negative feedback; and if you paid via PayPal, you might have a chance of getting your dough (or some of it) back. But that vendor goes on my "permanent fecal roster". (Of course he/she may change ID - or may even be running several different IDs.)

I still buy stuff there, but I've gotten a lot more careful.. I won't buy from anyone who's been listing under the given name for less than a year, has less than maybe 100 feedback entries, and is better than 97% positive. And never, ever from anyone who won't answer a question... or who says "I don't know anything about these things" - which is a real red-flag warning. Also, bad photos are a warning sign.

Even so, it's what they DON'T tell you that you have to worry about - I recently bought a 5C collet chuck - obviously Chinese, but I took a flyer because it was pretty cheap. The chuck itself is very nice (it took a pint of paint-thinner flushed through it, and a thorough greasing, to get rid of the grit, but I expected that). But the backplate (not fitted) is a piece of crap. Plenty thick for a few mistakes in fitting it, but the threads are so grungy that I'm reluctant to put it on my spindle. At least I have a nice spare backplate from an earlier buy. Of course, I still have to fit and install the thing to see if it matches the advertised "less than .0004" TIR"...

Pete in NJ

lazlo
11-07-2007, 11:30 AM
Cybor,

Don't sweat it -- you can get all your money back.

This is going to annoy the Ebay sellers here, but file an "Item Not Received" claim with PayPal (not Ebay), and you will get all your money back, including the shipping:

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?InrCreateDispute

I had to go through this three times in the last two months, from bone-head sellers who throw a steel or bronze cut-off loose in a carboard box, and then act surprised when the box shows up empty on my doorstep:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/IMG_0002-1.jpg

When a buyer files an "Item Not Received" dispute, the burden is entirely on the seller to explain what happened, and based on my experiences, and the feedback on the Ebay discussion forums, the buyer almost always wins the dispute.

Everytime I've had to resort to an Item Not Received dispute, I had the same deal as you did: I politely informed the seller what happened, and sent pictures of the destroyed box. About half of the sellers I've dealt with are cool about it, and work something out with me.

The Sellers who think they have you by the balls, and just ignore you, are shocked when PayPal draws the money back out of their account.

Good luck!

Robert

5Bears
11-07-2007, 12:27 PM
I've had decent luck on eBay, but it takes some caution. Keyless chucks like Albrecht... I will always insist on seeing a close and accurate photo of the jaws. If the jaws are clean and minty, there's a good chance it is in excellent shape, or can be brought to that state. Too often, though, the jaws are banged and trashed, and that is enough to keep me away.

Cutting tools are ALWAYS dangerous, IMO, with one exception - those that are advertised as brand new, and packaged as such. Anything labeled "used", "expertly reshapened", etc I will pass on 100% of the time.

And that feedback rating is horrible. Anything less than 300 or so transactions, I will look for 100% positive feedback. Less than that, forget it. I like to read the feedbacks, and look especially for descriptions like "expertly packed" and "fast shipment", not just the usual "A++++++++++++" crap.

Sorry to hear you got torched.

IOWOLF
11-07-2007, 02:24 PM
Caviat Emptor is the Ebay way.

cybor462
11-07-2007, 02:36 PM
lazlo...I already filed a less than advertised dispute saying I received less than stated on the auction. I also stated not as described. We will see where it goes.
I guess I am at fault for knowing 72 bucks for 40 NEW em's carbide and cobalt made in the US was way to cheap.
Some of the em's that were suppose to be new even had metal chips still in the flutes. Even a dumb person would know they were used.
The seller already left me positive feedback so if I do not get a refund or partial refund I will certainly post negative on him with no reprisal from him anyway.

Good sometimes triumphs over evil! :rolleyes:

iowolf...as usual you are right!
Did I just write that?:eek: ;)

lazlo
11-07-2007, 04:06 PM
lazlo...I already filed a less than advertised dispute saying I received less than stated on the auction. I also stated not as described. We will see where it goes.

One detail about the process Cybor: there's an "Item Not Received" dispute, which is the first phase. This sends an email to the seller with the explanation you filled out, and lets them know that you're not happy.

A dispute is not binding, and won't get you your money back, unless the seller suddenly decides to be honest about the transaction.

What you need to do is wait a couple of days for the seller to respond, and then escalate the "Item Not Received" dispute to a PayPal claim.

Where the Item Not Received dispute is not binding, and just sends a nasty gram to the seller, the Item Not Received claim is binding.

At this point, the Seller will usually ignore the dispute, and then the claim, often combined with an F-You email telling you that Ebay and Paypal won't get involved. Just ignore the seller at this point: after 20 days, Paypal will automatically resolve the claim in your favor, unless the seller responds with some profound reason why you didn't get the items you paid for, in the quantity and condition described in the auction.


I guess I am at fault for knowing 72 bucks for 40 NEW em's carbide and cobalt made in the US was way to cheap.

I disagree Cybor -- its a public (world-wide) auction, and that's what people were willing to pay for the auction. It doesn't matter if you got a Deckel for $2, if that's what it closed at, then you deserve your merchandise.

Cheers,

Robert

tony ennis
11-07-2007, 04:18 PM
+1 IOWOLF

Any feedback under 99% is a red flag for me. Under 98.5% and I probably won't buy. Ironically, I'll tolerate a somewhat lower feedback on durable items if the seller doesn't have many sales - it takes a few "oopsies" to learn to be a good ebay seller. In the early days I got a "neutral" rating once because I didn't inspect a woodworking plane thoroughly enough - I didn't notice a repair and the buyer groused at me for it.

My lesson is "don't buy musical instruments off ebay." I bought 2 guitars and 2 clarinets and was ultimately sorry each time. One of the guitars was heavily damaged. Beware of the "I was good the last time I saw it, but I didn't pack this for shipping, my little brother did and he said it was ok" excuse.

cybor462
11-07-2007, 06:07 PM
One detail about the process Cybor: there's an "Item Not Received" dispute, which is the first phase. This sends an email to the seller with the explanation you filled out, and lets them know that you're not happy.



Robert

I did that, it gave me a list of choices to put for filing the dispute. I checked those that matched my case. I do not expect the seller to answer as he already gave me the F*You.

lazlo
11-07-2007, 06:22 PM
Right, but now you have to give the seller a couple of days to respond, and then you'll need to escalate the dispute to a claim.

If you don't escalate it to a claim, PayPal won't refund your money.

IOWOLF
11-07-2007, 06:27 PM
Thanx for that.and that makes 4000.

lazlo
11-07-2007, 07:03 PM
that makes 4000.

Woohoo! Congrats Wolfie!! :D

andy_b
11-07-2007, 10:57 PM
I had to go through this three times in the last two months, from bone-head sellers who throw a steel or bronze cut-off loose in a carboard box, and then act surprised when the box shows up empty on my doorstep:


Robert

yup, i've had that same problem several times with long pieces like brass rod or even a rifle barrel one time. i make it a habit now that if i order something like that i tell the seller that the UPS guys like to lose things, so make sure the corners/ends of the box are well protected. so far i haven't had problems getting a replacement item.

andy b.

Too_Many_Tools
11-07-2007, 11:27 PM
Cybor,

Don't sweat it -- you can get all your money back.

This is going to annoy the Ebay sellers here, but file an "Item Not Received" claim with PayPal (not Ebay), and you will get all your money back, including the shipping:

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?InrCreateDispute

I had to go through this three times in the last two months, from bone-head sellers who throw a steel or bronze cut-off loose in a carboard box, and then act surprised when the box shows up empty on my doorstep:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/IMG_0002-1.jpg

When a buyer files an "Item Not Received" dispute, the burden is entirely on the seller to explain what happened, and based on my experiences, and the feedback on the Ebay discussion forums, the buyer almost always wins the dispute.

Everytime I've had to resort to an Item Not Received dispute, I had the same deal as you did: I politely informed the seller what happened, and sent pictures of the destroyed box. About half of the sellers I've dealt with are cool about it, and work something out with me.

The Sellers who think they have you by the balls, and just ignore you, are shocked when PayPal draws the money back out of their account.

Good luck!

Robert


Correct....and that is why some sellers only take money orders.

In fact I am now dealing with a seller who is trying to screw me over after paying for tooling with a money order...he would not take Paypal....and now he has "disappeared".

He has a really big surprise coming if my tooling does not show soon.

My policy from now on will be that I will only buy from Paypal auctions only.

I suggest you do the same.

TMT

J Tiers
11-08-2007, 12:01 AM
I don't buy on ebay, and I don't sell there. The way youse guys are, I wouldn't sell until I had already sold 300 times, anyway.... so how would I start and get those 300 sales?

And I sure as heck would NEVER take Paypal...... The seller scam is one thing, but the buyer scam is another.... CLAIM the item never arrived (lying like a rug) and AUTOMATICALLY get the refund, no questions asked, no recourse for the seller..... Sweet deal ain't it? Been done more than a few times on expensive stuff, some done to folks I know.

However, it amazes me how people pack stuff. Toss a cast iron item in a box with a few pieces of balled up newspaper..... Astounding.

I've sold a few items thru PM ads.... I standardly strap the item to a piece of scrap plywood, and pack wrapped in the 3/8 thick flexible polyfoam sheeting or the like. I have NEVER had a complaint of damage or inadequate packing.

But I was sent a piece of small machinery by a dealer once. You guessed it, big box, 10 balls of newspaper.

The item was destroyed (spindle bent and unfixable), the accessories had escaped through the holes punched by the item slamming around, nothing good about it.

I did get another one, but I had to put up with the last he could find, which was put together out of scraps and remainders, and a lot less nice than the first (if it had arrived undamaged).

S_J_H
11-08-2007, 12:38 AM
I think maybe I have been lucky with e-bay. I have not been ripped off yet and have purchased a few items over the years that were VERY good deals. The last auction I won was the local pickup only of my vintage Artisan lathe, and I paid cash on pickup to a very nice guy. Just 2 guys trusting each other and it worked out great.
I am VERY cautious of the scams on e-bay though.
But I just had a lousy experience with a Craigs list seller. I did not lose any money, just some of my time. At least on e-bay you might be able to clue in a little from the prior feedback if there is any.
I guess it's all a gamble these days.
Steve

DryCreek
11-08-2007, 02:58 AM
I had one of those priority mail boxes arrive with a nice hole punched in one end. It was supposed to contain a 12" Starrett 198 level, but someone who works in a post office probably now has it?

The seller behaved as he should and refunded my money (Paypal), so it ended OK. The lost item was entirely due to lack of proper packaging, as we know the ends of those levels are pretty sharp.

I have not had any really bad experiences on Ebay. Normally to be avoided are money orders, or parcel post shipping. One item came clear across the country and then sat in a postal location eighty miles from my home for six weeks before it was delivered.

What you should do with this problem is mention the sellers name several times in this thread. Hopefully a web crawler will pick it up and a search will lead to the discussion. Maybe his Ebay days will not be so joyful?

jkilroy
11-08-2007, 07:12 AM
If you are going to pay with money orders get US Postal money orders. Then, if the seller screws you, turn him in to the office of the postal inspector. They WILL be giving him a call and he will NOT like his options.

Pete H
11-08-2007, 11:02 AM
Jkilroy's got it right... use US Postal Money Orders... I believe that a fraudulent seller could be guilty of Postal Fraud, and that's messy. That's how I got my money back in the burn I described earlier. Pete in NJ

lazlo
11-08-2007, 11:16 AM
The seller scam is one thing, but the buyer scam is another.... CLAIM the item never arrived (lying like a rug) and AUTOMATICALLY get the refund, no questions asked, no recourse for the seller.

I know JT, it does work that way, and it sucks, which is why I was reluctant to post the instructions. But so many people here have gotten screwed...


However, it amazes me how people pack stuff. Toss a cast iron item in a box with a few pieces of balled up newspaper..... Astounding.

I think it's just sheer laziness. And an expectation that it's no longer the seller's responsibility once the item has left their hands. Some Ebay sellers think it's FOB Shipper.

That picture I posted above was when I bought a 12" bar of CPM 3V from a seller on Ebay. This is super expensive, powdered metallurgy, high-vanadium wear-resistant tool steel. No, I don't do anything that needs 3V in my shop, but it's basically high-tech S-7 tool steel, and it was dirt cheap...

After I won the auction, the guy sends me a private message and says that for an extra $20, he'll give me another 20 lbs of random 3V cutoffs. So "Sure!" I say.

So he literally shoves 30 lbs of CPM 3V in a Flate Rate box, with a single strip of tape around the seam. :mad: Not surprisingly, the box shows up with 3 or four little pieces, but at least 25 lbs of 3V are missing, including the 12" bar I paid for.

So I send the guy a photo of the box, and explain that you can't just dump a bunch of steel cylinders loose inside a carboard box with a single strip of packing tape, and expect it to make the trip.

He apologizes, and immediately sends another box, filled with 3V. Packed exactly the same way. A 30 lb box of expensive powdered metallurgy tool steel thrown loose in a cardboard box, with a single strip of tape.

So I send a second set of pictures, and ask why he packed the second box the same way as the first? And his response was "Well, I've sent you 60 lbs of 3V, so I figure I've held up my end of the bargain."

Eventually, he shipped me two bars of 10V in an extremely well packed UPS box, but it's sad to think of a 60 pound trail of CPM 3V, strewn like breadcrumbs, between Illinois and Austin :(

wlpier
11-08-2007, 12:51 PM
Ten years later and 500+ items on Ebay and I've only had two problems and both were settled quickly and equitably with the seller. I just donít understand where these sellers with attitude come from. I think most of us would do the right thing and make the customer happy if you want to continue doing business. :)

Here are a few of the things Iíve learned over the ten years on Ebay:

1. Assume the worse, nothing is ever as it seems. Donít believe the hype. Sellers deliberately deceive or they may legitimately not know their butt for a hole in the ground. And if itís not the worse, just think of the pleasant surprise youíll get.

2. If you canít fix it, donít buy it. Look at it carefully, ask questions. No pictures, no bid.

3. If you canít sharpen it, donít buy it. Assume they are all dull and used. Why else would the seller be dumping them?

4. If the sellerís ďlegaleseĒ is longer than the item description, beware and think twice about buying it.

5. If it has a reserve price donít bother bidding, the seller thinks itís ďgold platedĒ and Iím looking for bargains not retail.

6. Insurance is one of my pet peeves. It doesnít do me any good as a buyer because the seller holds the receipt. Can you imagine MSC, ENCO saying too bad about your luck, you didnít buy insurance, tough! Itís just another way to nickel and dime the buyer. This is the seller's risk not the buyer's.

7. Look at the total price and that includes shipping. Shipping is often a deal killer. Some sellers think they can make up their ďlossĒ with outrageous shipping and handling. Time to not bid.

8. Check the sellerís approval rating and look up the negatives and evaluate them as legit or just a cranky buyer. No rating? Then I ask for COD.

9. Know your prices, check multiple sources and donít over pay. In my book used ďmade in USAĒ compares with new ďOff ShoreĒ, they are both question marks, but, at least, the new ďforeignĒ from your favorite supplier comes with a warranty.

10. Keep it real, donít get caught in a bidding frenzy. Youíre buying something to use, not as an investment for your childís college education 10 years down the road. Use a sniping program, research the price, enter your max bid with the sniper, and walk away. If you get it fine, if not move on to the next one. Donít let an ignorant Ebay ďrookieĒ or a ďshillĒ cost you money.

Iím sure there are others here who could add or expand on this list. Iíve made it from a buyerís point of view, although I have been a seller too. It would be interesting to hear a sellerís point of view.

cybor462
11-08-2007, 01:13 PM
I got tally whammed a number of years ago. I was drag racing back then and was looking for a race built C4 tranny. Found one on ebay. I researched the seller and even called him on the phone. He was in CA and was building race trannies. His father was a known drag racer and he said he learned from him. I can't remember the name but I did research it and it was true. He raced Ford's.
I used paypal (thank god) and paid. I was told it would be shipped in 2 days. It had to go UPS freight. I paid 600+ for the tranny and 150 freight.

A week came and went and no tranny. I called him and he told me he was having a hard time meeting the freight p/u driver. I was ok with that and waited another 3 weeks. No tranny so I called this guy and now no answer. Tried for a couple days and still no answer. I called paypal and started a claim. They reported to me on several occasions. First they tried to lock up his account and there was no money in it. They tried to lock up his linked account to it and there was no money there either.
Finally they told me to contact the authorities as it seemed they could do nothing more. Just when I was ready to do it I get a call from the seller.
Oh boy now I got him, he tells me he went on his honeymoon and used all his money, never shipped the tranny as he had no time to ship it because he got married.
Finally told him I was pressing formal fraud charges with law enforcement and I got my money.

You can be as cautious as possible and still get rooked.

Evan
11-08-2007, 03:41 PM
I'm with J Tiers on this. I don't do e-Bay and won't do it. I have no problem with mail order and buy stuff from all over North America, always have. There is no other option if you have an interest in something besides TV and/or beer here.

The trouble with e-Bay is that you are dealing with a ghost, the seller is anonymous. There isn't the slimmest chance I would buy something sight unseen from an anonymous seller with no address. I'm surprised that e-Bay works at all.

pcarpenter
11-08-2007, 03:57 PM
I've bought quite a bit of tooling and even a mill on ebay and did well overall...well enough that the few losses I took pale by comparison, so I will not be one to throw the baby out with the bathwater.

What I take exception with is that the cliche "caveat emptor" gets thrown out every time someone gets taken....even if they were taken by misrepresentation. That translates roughly to "buyer beware" which seems to imply that the buyer should take note of the information (including pictures and words) he is given and make a decision. If someone ignores this information, then the cliche applies. If the seller was merely deceitful and dishonest, then it does not apply and is just more meaningless babble that people say when someone gets taken for a ride.

To me its about like people blaming crime on guns...blaming something other than the person who did the deed is time wasted and gives that person a pass on their behavior. Cybor didn't do anything wrong.
-1 point IOWOLF.

Paul

wierdscience
11-08-2007, 10:11 PM
As a buyer and a seller with over 240 transactions and a 100% rating I can't complain about Ebay,but I am careful.

As a judge once told me,usually in a dispute the person who has the most and best paper wins.

I asign a folder and save to file the auction page I am looking at.I save a copy of any and all correspondance including any questions I asked the seller before bidding and his answers.I use Paypal and postal money orders only.

Damaged packing,pictures are in order,lots of them including the merchandise.Keep every shred of information untill both you and the seller are satisfied and feedback has been left.

I have had trouble with only one person,he beat around the bush and tried to weasle out on what he agreed to,but when he recieved a copy of his folder with his name,physical address,work and home phone numbers,the auction page,his answers to my questions and the photos of the crappy packing job he figured out his situation was not a good one and reimbursed me.

wirewrkr
11-08-2007, 11:55 PM
First and foremost.....Don't just read the rating numbers on feedback, READ THE ACTUAL COMMENTS!!!
The other day I needed some brake rotors for my truck, I followed several sellers, and emailed one whose prices I thought were OK, But he wanted $46.00 for shipping. I questioned him by email about his ratees.

After I actually read his feedback, (he only had 6 negatives) I found out that he had Almost 30 unhappy customers in the last 2 years!!!
He had at least 15 "neutral" comments, all unhappy, AND 5 or 6 "withdrawn" claims. All unhappy, as well as the 6 Negative feedbacks.
When he emailed me telling me he would work with me on the shipping I told him to forget it, I wouldn't buy from him even if the shipping was free.
Read, read, read.
Robert

lazlo
11-09-2007, 09:22 AM
I agree Wire -- the Ebay feedback ratings are almost useless.

I don't leave negative feedback, because the feedback system is completely broken, and I don't want to lose my 100% rating. That seems to be a pretty prevalent attitude amongst the experienced denizens on Ebay.

Two of the Ebay sellers that I mentioned in my post above, who sent me empty boxes and then were assholes about it, had 100% ratings with nearly 100 transactions.
I think most negative feedback you'll see are from new and inexperienced Ebay buyers, who are then shocked when they get a retaliatory negative.

cybor462
11-09-2007, 11:54 PM
In my case the seller left me positive feedback already. If I do not get satisfaction I can post negative for him without fear of him doing it to me.

IOWOLF
11-10-2007, 07:20 AM
Paul,Points here are like Ebay Feedback,Not worth the time it takes to write.

IMHO.

tony ennis
11-10-2007, 09:30 AM
To me its about like people blaming crime on guns...blaming something other than the person who did the deed is time wasted and gives that person a pass on their behavior. Cybor didn't do anything wrong.
-1 point IOWOLF.

I think the point is buying something sight-unseen (or perhaps worse, using non-representative pics of the seller's choosing), from a seller you don't know, can't contact directly, has an unknown address and phone number, and who is generally in another police force's jurisdiction, is where the risk comes in. This is a haven for sellers who are adept at navigating the darker regions of the gray area.

The 'caveat emptor' relates to the risks associated with running across one of these people. If you buy enough stuff on eBay, you will eventually come up short.

That being said, if you buy with Visa or Mastercard, you can always challenge the charge as fraudulent. If you use Paypal, there's a arbitration/fraud mechanism there too.

Wirecutter
11-10-2007, 02:01 PM
I disagree Cybor -- its a public (world-wide) auction, and that's what people were willing to pay for the auction. It doesn't matter if you got a Deckel for $2, if that's what it closed at, then you deserve your merchandise.

Very true. I think it might have been Evan that quoted something like this:

"Value isn't what someone is willing to pay for something, it's what two people are willing to pay."

At least that's the way it is on Ebay.

Sorry you got hosed.

-Mark

JoeFin
11-10-2007, 04:06 PM
I had enough BAD experiences with ebone as far as tooling goes I just wonít touch them any more.

The only indexable milling and lathe tools you find there are those that use proprietary custom inserts youíll end up paying $10 - $15 per insert. That or the seller forget to mention it had been crashed pretty well.

Even selling on ebone is pretty risky too.

Sold some DRO scales and the buyer tried to say the scales were not in the crate when he received it. I was polite, tried to give him as much assistance as possible but if he wants to scam UPS that is his business. If he canít return the items I canít refund the money.

Too_Many_Tools
11-11-2007, 01:19 AM
Sold some DRO scales and the buyer tried to say the scales were not in the crate when he received it. I was polite, tried to give him as much assistance as possible but if he wants to scam UPS that is his business. If he canít return the items I canít refund the money.

How do you know that he is lying?

It is the seller's responsibility to make sure the item is shipped safely to the buyer.

TMT

wirewrkr
11-11-2007, 06:08 AM
Keep in mind that there is always a recorded weight on the package.
Wether you ship UPS pr Postal, there is always a recorded weight. ( how else would the shipper know how much to charge?) Anyway, JOEfin, if someone complains that they didn't get the items in the package, always ask for a picture of the package and how much it weighed when he got it.
Compare that to how much the recorded weight was when you shipped it.
Along time ago we shipped two motorcycle tires to a customer in Florida. Along with the tires we packed other parts INSIDE the tires and sealed the whole thing up.
The customer gets his package, calls me and asks when the tires were going to arive.
HUH? I asked back, he says thet all he got was a box with the other parts, but no tires. The recieved weight was less than the shipped weight. We filed a UPS claim, they fought us buteventually paid it when they realized the weights and dimension were totally different.
A year or so later UPS informed us that someone at their transfer station had stashed the tires behind a machine and never went back for them. They found them and wanted us to pay them back for the claim and they would send us the tires. I politely wished them good luck with their new tires.
Robert

cybor462
01-05-2008, 04:24 PM
Well got an email from Paypal saying the claim was denied. Said the police report I sent was unacceptable.

Some background, I was eventually told to file a local police report and fax a copy within 10 days of their email to me which was dated 12/17/2007 So I went to the station (no real station) police here work out of their cars. They do have a building but it is not manned. I was able to catch an officer there doing paperwork. I brought him my stuff, apologized for the trouble and filed a report. As I knew he stated there is nothing they can do. I knew that but told him I had to file it to satisfy Paypal. He gave me his card and a report number.

I then called Paypal since I did not have a paper report as they wanted , explained why. The paypal rep. said that is ok, just scan the card and write the report # next to it and that would be ok.

Then I get denied because I followed their instructions.

I called again and brought my attitude to a higher level and got appologies all day. She said she would open an appeal and note all I said. She even said I was short changed because they had to close all cases by years end and mine was probably rushed to a final verdict due to time constraints.

So the plot thickens.....do I expect a refund?..NO do I deserve it? Yes

We will see......

tmarks11
01-05-2008, 07:02 PM
If you don't escalate it to a claim, PayPal won't refund your money.
You gotta read the fine print. The $2000 protection doesn't apply if the seller has fewer then 50 feedbacks or less then 98%.

I got nailed hard by this for $135 early on... the seller met those wickets, but then completely stopped sending stuff to people after I bid... so negative feedback immediately piled up and hit the magic <98% mark before I filed a dispute.

Complaining to paypal is like talking to a brick wall. They found in my favor in the dispute resolution, but her account had no money in it, so I never say a dime. If the seller has no money in his paypal account, then you are SWOL, since the $2000 guarentee doesn't apply.

Immediately dispute this with you credit card company... they will charge back paypal for the amount, which might actually make paypal get interested in trying to resolve the issue.

I am betting this seller offers the other 26 end mills for sale in a few days (maybe under another name)... sure they fell out of the box. He is just trying to recoupe his losses when they didn't go for hundreds of dollars by just making a box guarenteed to split apart in shipment and shipping you some junk.

Oh, and if anybody isn't leary enough of paypal, then just try reading some of the stuff at http://www.aboutpaypal.org . Don't be stupid enough to "verify your account" by putting in your checking account and bank RTN numbers.... and if you do, give them only a separate account with only a little bit of money in it. There are all sorts of nasty stories about paypal emptying peoples account out, and either being slow to return or never returning the money. Why the heck would paypal want to "verify" your account? Isn't a credit card good enough? Oh yeah, credit card companies have teams of lawyers to fight fraud, but when you "authorize" paypal to pull money from your bank account, you are pretty much on your own to try to get it back.

Dawai
01-05-2008, 07:52 PM
<quote from paypal>
Your seller has chosen to escalate this dispute to a PayPal claim. By ending communication with you and escalating to a claim, the seller is asking PayPal to investigate the case and decide the outcome. As part of
our investigation, PayPal reviewed any communication you may have had in the Resolution Center.

Our investigation into your claim is complete. As stated in our User Agreement, the claims process only applies to the shipment of goods. It does not apply to complaints about the attributes or quality of goods received. Therefore, we are unable to reverse this transaction or issue a refund.
<end quote>

OK.. this tells me, if you sell on ebay, you can advertise a diamond ring, send a crackerjack box prize ring and since you shipped a item, no claim exists..
This is why doctors prescribe thorazine to people.
It has became so crooked, sellers can bid on thier own items and you can't investigate the where-abouts of co-bidders running the price up on you.. and if they overstep your high bid, they can second chance you to get premium top bid.. great huh?

I sold that old impala convertible on there, had every young black boy and mexican in the south calling me on the phone. I was so amazed when the $500 deposit was in the paypal in less than five minutes after the auction ended.. Them two large boys who looked like ROsie Grier (large, no neck) came down and got that old car with a hand full of cash.

NOW that rich guy in California, he didn't want to put up the deposit, then wanted my bank account number to "send" cash.. HA.. I hear that all the time from Nigeria. I've thought about sending a few California brothers over to talk to him. I'm out right now over $160 in ebay fees on that AUction, reposted.. Have to dance to get the final fees back.

lazlo
01-05-2008, 08:46 PM
You gotta read the fine print. The $2000 protection doesn't apply if the seller has fewer then 50 feedbacks or less then 98%.

Ouch -- I didn't know that!

If that's the case, just do a charge-back on your credit card. PayPal wants to avoid a charge-back like the plague, because it costs $14 for the transaction, plus a lot of paperwork for their employees.

I've had to resort to a credit card charge-back (instead of the PayPal dispute system) twice, when the seller claimed that he was sending a replacement item, but he was just waiting me out till after the 20 day filing period. Works like a charm.

tony ennis
01-05-2008, 10:48 PM
"Immediately dispute this with you credit card company... "
"just do a charge-back on your credit card."

Yep yep. Visa and Mastercard have worked very hard to make using their cards safe, easy, and effective. They DO love that interest rate, lol. For this reason, they don't take kindly to paypal effectively undoing everything they've been working towards.

Visa and Mastercard will crush paypal if they get too far out of line.

If I had a bad transaction I'd give paypal one chance then just go away to dispute the charge. In fact, if you tell paypal you're going to do that, they probably put you in a different processing queue, one where they finally say, "Ok, just this once, we're going to refund your money."

And never, ever, ever pay by debit card. Even if it's a Visa debit card you have fewer protections and your money is gone - you end up fighting to get it back.

Dawai
01-06-2008, 04:10 AM
I agree, pay with credit card via paypal,
If you sell, always "never accept credit cards payment" a two edged sword. It is a gamble. Trust your credit card company a lot more than paypal.

Paypal, ebay has became the largest host for scammers in the world. Just because someone has a feedback don't trust them to be who they present themselves to be.

Accounts get hijacked daily.

ALL online transactions can be scams. Ever buy a used car? Local ones can be too. If it is too good to be true, it probably is not true.

tmarks11
01-06-2008, 08:43 AM
Accounts get hijacked daily.
Yep, my ebay account got hijacked. The jackass used my ebay account to spam a host of other ebay users via PM. I didn't realize it until I tried to logon and found my account frozen. Could have been worse; at least he didn't place any bids.

Gotta wonder how he got my password? Apparently I was not the only ebay account that he hijacked that day.

I was an idiot, and used that password for other things (although not with the same email address), so I spent an afternoon quickly updating many other websites with new passwords... none of them the same (so now I routinely lock myself out all over the net). At least my paypal email address and password were different, so he couldn't progress from one to another.

tony ennis
01-06-2008, 11:11 AM
so now I routinely lock myself out all over the net

Get Password Safe (http://passwordsafe.sourceforge.net/). It's free. It is a program that binds URLs (or whatever) with passwords, and stores them encrypted. The encryption is based upon a keyphrase. So when you start Password Safe you enter the passphrase. Now all your passwords are available. When you need one, it will copy it into your paste buffer so you don't have to type it and expose it to people around you. Probably avoids key trappers too. If you need to see the password there is a way to display it.

It also generates random strong passwords.

If you have a lot of passwords to remember it's a life-saver.

Put the Password Safe program and database on your thumb drive and you're set.

cybor462
01-06-2008, 07:26 PM
My problem was I use my paypal funds to buy on ebay, so there is no credit card involved. No one to charge back.
I know I lost but at least a got a cheap keyless chuck anyway. I also got a few keyway cutters.

Live and learn.

tony ennis
01-06-2008, 10:22 PM
Yep, without using a Visa or Mastercard you lost all your leverage.

IOWOLF
01-07-2008, 06:22 AM
Klem, You got Screwed, Time to Get over it, Learn from your mistake, and move on.

And please, can we let this thread DIE?

cybor462
01-07-2008, 10:29 AM
Klem, You got Screwed, Time to Get over it, Learn from your mistake, and move on.

And please, can we let this thread DIE?

I thought that is what I did.:p


I know I lost but at least a got a cheap keyless chuck anyway. I also got a few keyway cutters.
Live and learn.

tony ennis
01-07-2008, 10:42 AM
Nah, like Baron von Frankenstein, you created a monster!

Dawai
01-07-2008, 02:31 PM
IO: iS kinda like me, if it was him, he'd never get over it. Lessons to be learned without paying the price, I'm listening..

Newest thing, purchase things with paypal credit card, hold seller in limbo till you sell it, then make a profit with their pictures.. pay, collect profit or call in the deposit if it don't pan out. You don't have to own something to make money off it, just control it.

Been done with land deals for hundreds of years. making money with no investment.

aostling
01-07-2008, 02:31 PM
I started selling things on eBay when it first started. It was a royal pain then, requiring FTP software just to upload photos. With it's incorporation of PayPal it is now really easy to launch an auction. I just listed this http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=320204869153&ssPageName=STRK:MESE:IT&ih=011 and I doubt if it took me more than half an hour. It's like having a garage sale, and inviting the whole world show up to outbid one another.

I've bought and sold hundreds of items, and never had a bad transaction.

cybor462
01-07-2008, 03:01 PM
Allan I too started way back when. I first started selling on ebay in 1996 that was before they kept much of any info. It may have been earlier because I swear there was a time before feedback.
I had just closed my retail store and had a warehouse full of hobby and general merchandise to sell. Tried a local auction but found I would lose my butt. I found Ebay and sold the stuff for 10% more than the retail price I was charging in the store.

Yeah life was good. I always used auction software even back then. I used to sell on Yahoo, Auction Universe, By and Sell, Haggle, and a few more that are no longer around. I made a good living at it part time. When ebay got so large the sellers outnumbered the buyers 1000 to 1 is when I gave up. It was nice when buyers outnumbered the sellers.

Don't want to p*ss anyone off by posting about this. :o I guess with almost 6000 views others must feel it is worth looking at. ;)

But in the interest of diplomacy I will quit.:)