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View Full Version : Newbie here, just saying Hi!



franksremote
11-28-2007, 06:49 PM
Hey folks, new to this site and found it while searching for information on a mill I just picked up and wanted to say "HI!".

I'm a custom 1911 gunsmith and only know enough about milling/machining to complete the tasks that I was taught on a Sharp machine with a DRO.

I just picked up an Index Model 845 with all the collets (not R8 but I figure I'll use them till they break and then switch to the R8s I've got) but no DRO. It was under power when I bought it and other than a nice cleaning, a few belt replacements and a stud replacement, looks to be in great condition. Will take and post pics for before and after when I get a moment.

As I'm a newbie who currently uses a Jet JMD 15 at the shop, it's all that fits, but works if I go slow. I know nothing about the proper way to clean this up and give it a complete checkup. I haven't used the search feature extensively here yet and will shortly.

So, if you have links to point me towards, advice on clean up/maintenance and input on a good replacement DRO (2 or 3 axis) I'd appreciate it. Any feedback on the 845 would be appreciated as well.

Thanks in advance!

jimmstruk
11-28-2007, 07:17 PM
Welcome!! Lots of good guys here with much experience and knowledge and willing to share. JIM

franksremote
11-28-2007, 08:11 PM
Welcome!! Lots of good guys here with much experience and knowledge and willing to share. JIM

Thanks for the welcome :)

I also picked up a BP series II (4hp powerfeed everthing model) with Accurite DRO that came as part of the package. I got it in the garage, but there's no way short of cutting a hole in the ceiling that I'll be able to keep it. If someone in NorCal has a need/want for one and is looking for one of these, please make a reasonable offer and let me know.

speedsport
11-28-2007, 08:38 PM
not that big of a deal to "cut a hole in the ceiling", probably take 2-3 hours to reframe and cover with drywall.

thistle
11-28-2007, 08:42 PM
hello there!

some one else is telling you to cut a hole!

nothing like horse power !

Barlow L
11-28-2007, 09:29 PM
Welcome and Howdy,

Position that BP under a closet and raise that floor!! Just a couple hours for mo horsepower.

Lee

franksremote
11-29-2007, 02:56 AM
I'd love to keep it, but alas, there just isn't room; not to mention that the landlord won't be too keen with the hole in the roof.

I'm sure the 845 will suit my needs, just need directions on how to clean it up. ;) I'm ordering the way oil as recommended, how much? 2 gallons, 5, more? I also ordered some Kool Mist 78, 1 gallon's worth. Anything else come to mind from anyone before I close the order out?

Thanks for the warm welcome :)

thistle
11-29-2007, 08:06 AM
1 gallon of way oil will go a long way.
coolant isnt really so needed, the discussion has be hashed out often enough.

thistle
11-29-2007, 08:21 AM
question to help Frank here-

I have a instruction manual for the 747 index mill in PDF from the US Army , and cannot for the life of me remember how to find out how to get a down load ,
can any suggest where to get it?

I dont want to email it to him 56 pages on dial up - not happening

camdigger
11-29-2007, 11:27 AM
Thistle

Emailing the PDF or downloading direct would both be a PITA on dial up. If it was me, and I was feeling generous, ($0.3 or so for the disc and $2 for postage), I'd burn the pdf to cd and snail mail it to 'im.

Cam

macona
11-29-2007, 12:42 PM
I use Mobil Vacuoline 1409 for my way lube. Modern Vactra #2 does not have the tackifiers that it used to have. Supposedly Vacuoline 1409 is the original recipe goodness. Sticks to the ways much better than Vactra #2.

Found it locally at a petroleum supplier. 5 Gal for about $40. Cant beat that!

I use the Kool Mist 78 with my Bijue Spray Mist. Works good. Out now though and need to buy some more.

I wouldnt say you dont need coolant. You dont need flood coolant unless its CNC.

ProGunOne
11-29-2007, 01:35 PM
Howdy and welcome Franksremote. Here's the manufacturer of your machines web-site. They should be able to provide you with a manual and they can re-grind your spindle to an R-8 ($250.00 IIRC?) should you choose to go that route in the future? Good luck, Paul.


http://www.wellsindex.com/index.html

franksremote
11-29-2007, 03:08 PM
I found the 747 manual online @ http://www.tpub.com/content/operatormanuals/TM-9-3417-213-14-P/index.htm
is that the right/complete one?

I was taught with a kool mister and wanted to continue for the time being with what I know. I'm sure I'll find my own way after a bit :)

Thanks for the heads up on the way oil, I was reading some of the posts on the differences (search is my friend ;) ) I'll look locally before ordering online at that price ($40 for 5 gallons). Anyone know of a place in the SF Bay Area that stocks at around that price? There don't seem to be a whole lot of machining places locally.

I did contact Wells-Index directly and they wanted $40 for the manual. Another post I read said it was a photocopied manual, so ... I guess I'm just feeling cheap :D Luckily I got all of the collets with this mill so for the time being I'm going to stick with those. It's nice to know that when the time comes, I can have it changed to R8 as I've got plenty of those collets.

You can send large files through www.yousendit.com upto 100mb without any fees, etc. So if y'all need to send larger files between each other, it's a good/cheap way to go.

Thanks for all the help so far, I'm gearing up to clean my new to me 845 and getting it into use.

Still need to move that BP Series II first though...

thistle
11-29-2007, 05:04 PM
I think the main differance with the 845 is the shape of the body and knee castings , and they had provision for or had an old style power feed that is a big motor and gear box on the left of the knee , that drives a shaft under the table to a gear on the right of the table that drives the lead srew.

mine does not have this old style power feed,to fit a servo power feed i a little complicated on the 845.

i will peruse my 845 manual and try to figure out the differances , with the 847

what is the spindle taper B and S or 30 NMTB?

franksremote
11-29-2007, 11:36 PM
I think the main differance with the 845 is the shape of the body and knee castings , and they had provision for or had an old style power feed that is a big motor and gear box on the left of the knee , that drives a shaft under the table to a gear on the right of the table that drives the lead srew.

mine does not have this old style power feed,to fit a servo power feed i a little complicated on the 845.

i will peruse my 845 manual and try to figure out the differances , with the 847

what is the spindle taper B and S or 30 NMTB?

I have an 845, not the 847. ;) We've got the same mill which is why I hit you up :) It's a #9 B&S it would have really put me off if it didn't already come with all the collet sizes I use and then some. I'm thinking that if I break enough of 'em or lose 'em, etc. then I'll send my spindle out to W-I to regrind to R8 as I've got plenty of those around.

Even changing out all the oil, etc. you think that 1 gallon is enough? I figure I'm paying shipping anyways, so I was gonna order at least two gallons as I can always use some for the Jet - 15 at the shop.

On another note, I've been reading up a bit on VFDs and I'm taking it to mean that I can use it vs changing belt spindles for speed changes as well as the P1 to P3 conversion? Is that right or am I misunderstanding what I'm reading? I run almost everything at 700 rpm, so it's not a major undertaking to have to change the belts, but it doesn't look like there's a setting for 700 so if the VFDs really do adjust rpm it was really enticing.

You've been extremely helpful to this noobie, so thanks again.

pntrbl
11-30-2007, 12:27 AM
Yes, VFD's (variable frequency drive's) can be used to vary spindle speeds. Mine goes from 0-400 hz but I've never taken it over 60. The motor I'm driving is an old Fairbanks-Morse and I ain't wanting to turn it over the standard 1750 rpm.

There are some concerns with loss of torque at lower rpm's but I believe the sensorless vector type's address this. Mine is the sensorless kind and it's the only one I've ever had any experience with BTW, but it doesn't ever give up no matter how low I go. It'll honk the frame on my 11" Logan at any rpm I manage to screw up at.

SP

franksremote
11-30-2007, 02:09 AM
Yes, VFD's (variable frequency drive's) can be used to vary spindle speeds. Mine goes from 0-400 hz but I've never taken it over 60. The motor I'm driving is an old Fairbanks-Morse and I ain't wanting to turn it over the standard 1750 rpm.

There are some concerns with loss of torque at lower rpm's but I believe the sensorless vector type's address this. Mine is the sensorless kind and it's the only one I've ever had any experience with BTW, but it doesn't ever give up no matter how low I go. It'll honk the frame on my 11" Logan at any rpm I manage to screw up at.

SP

So, set the belts into the highest RPM setting and then use the VFD to run it slower? ie set it (belt wise) for 1800 RPM (max) and dial down on the VFD to run at the 700 I would normally use? It just sounds too easy... :eek:

franksremote
11-30-2007, 02:14 AM
I think the main differance with the 845 is the shape of the body and knee castings...

Adding photos:

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/franksremote/Index%20845/Top3rd.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/franksremote/Index%20845/Middletable.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/franksremote/Index%20845/Bottom3rdL.jpg

franksremote
11-30-2007, 02:14 AM
The things I wanna fix/clean up on top of the maintenance. I'd like to know the best way to address 'em for the mechanical stuff, the power box, is pretty easy, as it was broken during transport. I'm just not sure what to use for the rest of it and how to go about it...

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/franksremote/Index%20845/BrokenStud.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/franksremote/Index%20845/Brokenfwdrevhousing.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/franksremote/Index%20845/YWay.jpg

franksremote
11-30-2007, 02:16 AM
More photos:

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/franksremote/Index%20845/Rightpowerfeed.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/franksremote/Index%20845/Powerfeedmotor.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/franksremote/Index%20845/OilPump.jpg
http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/franksremote/Index%20845/ZXandStop.jpg

thistle
11-30-2007, 04:32 AM
what i meant is that the 845 is very similar to the 847, infact all the mills are very similar ,but differ in the castings shape, I might be wrong on what i said about the power feed, the real differances being in slightly differant overall dimensions.


think the 845 is slightly bigger than others

I am trying to find out the differances.I might have to just photocopy the whole manual as the drawings pages are too big for the scanner, will sort you out eventuly.

ther is not much oil in the machine , just less than a pint in the one shot oiler,and then a couple squirts for the oil cup in the head.

nice you have the power feed , will check on the oil there

franksremote
11-30-2007, 05:03 AM
what i meant is that the 845 is very similar to the 847, infact all the mills are very similar ,but differ in the castings shape, I might be wrong on what i said about the power feed, the real differances being in slightly differant overall dimensions.


think the 845 is slightly bigger than others

I am trying to find out the differances.I might have to just photocopy the whole manual as the drawings pages are too big for the scanner, will sort you out eventuly.

ther is not much oil in the machine , just less than a pint in the one shot oiler,and then a couple squirts for the oil cup in the head.

nice you have the power feed , will check on the oil there

Gotcha regarding the 847. Did I have the right manual in the link I posted a page or two back? It may save you a bit of scanning ;)

So the one-shot isn't automatic then, right? I have to pump it, etx. when things aren't moving as smoothly at the table? Do I just look for a drain plug on it like changing oil on a car?

The placard with the model number and serial # shows their recommended lubricants for each part on the mill, I am presuming that it's 30+ years old and not all of the same stuff is available nor required as there are much better lubricants out there now. I'm attaching a photo of it so that maybe you could let me know if I need anyting other than the ISO 68/Vactra #2 you recommended.

http://i126.photobucket.com/albums/p100/franksremote/Index%20845/LabelCloseup.jpg

Where do I start with cleaning this up? What do I need; cleaners, solvents, etc? I really want to do it right and be able to post some awesome "after" pics. :D

pntrbl
11-30-2007, 07:34 AM
I've been using a fine steel wool and paint thinner for scrubbing off the brown stuff.

SP

thistle
11-30-2007, 07:49 AM
This is the hard way , but you wont screw anything up .
Take a couple of days, steel wool and mineral spirits and lots of rags, would not put a wire cup wheel on those ,or scotchbrite discs either.

i have one of those cleaning guns that hooks up to the air compressor to blast solvent , works great

maybe get some little brass brushes for scrubbing corners.

the ways might be chromed , cant tell- mine are

dont move anything either until you have the area of ways that you are going to move on to well cleaned, then put some oil onto it.for cleaning phase any clean oil would do i guess .

the one shot system might be working fine give a a good regular pumping to get oil into everything before you move as well

I would betempted to take the table off to see how thing look, plus it would allow you to give evrything a good clean.

be very gentle cleaning the screw- it is ground, and will cost you a grand for anew one!
the bronzelead screw nut is non adjustable, and relies on oil from the one shot sytem for lube, this is another reasonto get in there to check and make shure its going to get oil ok

Airhead
11-30-2007, 08:10 AM
So, set the belts into the highest RPM setting and then use the VFD to run it slower? ie set it (belt wise) for 1800 RPM (max) and dial down on the VFD to run at the 700 I would normally use? It just sounds too easy... :eek:

You're right to be sceptical. You can use a vfd to fine tune the speed within a range, but you will still need to change belts for gross speed changes.

My understanding is that the motor will put out the same torque at all speeds. The problem is that horsepower it torque divded by time and if you slow the motor to half it's name plate speed it will take twice as long to do the same amount of work, and so will produce only half the horsepower.

My advice would be to run it without the vfd and see how you like it. If you find yourself always wanting to be between the speeds provided by the belts, then star shopping for a vfd.


Rick

franksremote
12-01-2007, 01:05 AM
i have one of those cleaning guns that hooks up to the air compressor to blast solvent , works great

maybe get some little brass brushes for scrubbing corners.

the one shot system might be working fine give a a good regular pumping to get oil into everything before you move as well

I would betempted to take the table off to see how thing look, plus it would allow you to give evrything a good clean.

be very gentle cleaning the screw- it is ground, and will cost you a grand for anew one!
the bronzelead screw nut is non adjustable, and relies on oil from the one shot sytem for lube, this is another reasonto get in there to check and make shure its going to get oil ok

Where would one get said gun? Is it a harbor freight thingie or ??? Pretty cheap? I only ask as this will probably be the only thing I use it for. What kind of solvent should I decide to go that route?

What is regular pumping for the one-shot? A dozen times? Till I see something leaking? Should I change it out first with new oil? is it like changing out motor oil in a car (drain plug, etc.)?

Cleaning the screw... not really sure what that looks like (I mean, I know what a "screw" looks like, but not the one you're referring to), I really am that much of a newbie when it comes to this.

If having W-I come and do this wasn't 4 to 6 times what I paid for the mill, I'd go that route...

Sorry for the stupid questions, I'm just trying to figure this out... :(

macona
12-01-2007, 03:57 AM
Just find a Mobil distributor. Dont need to go to a machine supply house. they will just jack up the price.

Get some Zep purple for cleaning everything. Home Depot has it in gallon containers. That stuff is amazing. Just make sure to wear good rubber gloves. I use a spray bottle straight. Though I recommend doing it outdoors. And keep it off aluminum!

franksremote
12-01-2007, 06:11 AM
Just find a Mobil distributor. Dont need to go to a machine supply house. they will just jack up the price.

Get some Zep purple for cleaning everything. Home Depot has it in gallon containers. That stuff is amazing. Just make sure to wear good rubber gloves. I use a spray bottle straight. Though I recommend doing it outdoors. And keep it off aluminum!

What aisle/section would I find the Zep in?

So I can use it on everything since no part of the mill is aluminium, yes? Just spray it on and wipe it off or let it sit, etc.? Do I need to follow up with a rinse with something or?

Still need the steel wool, yes?

thistle
12-01-2007, 09:17 AM
the gun I have is an engine cleaning gun or something like that
hooks up to a compressed air line , and has a pot that you can fill with solvent or oil whatever , and a long nozzle , it give a good blast of solvent and air, and cleans dirt well- just make sure you use and organic respirator for the mist.

harbor fright has asimilar item http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=3953

with out the pot , just a hose- price is ok and i guess you could deal with the hose


Use mineral spirits for cleaning- it is the least nasty and is not so hazardous of the solvents and does a good job-

if you use a strong detergent you will need wash it off with a hose -

the oiler you usually give it one pump, and it slowly returns to position, and pumps the oil, if there isnt any oilin the oil lines it might take a few repetitions to get oil through the sytem and to the ways ect.

re changing it- dont know- the oil in the oiler should be ok , i would pump until there is none left then put yoour new stuff in.probably doesnt make sense to put new on old .



the screw i refered to is the long screw that moves the table - has hand wheels on each end

pntrbl
12-01-2007, 10:12 AM
Extensive use of paint thinner will lead to dry and cracked skin on your poor old hands. I suppose gloves would help but I've never used them. Lotions also cure the problem, but the only thing I've ever enjoyed putting lotion on was female.:)

SP