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IOWOLF
01-07-2008, 03:38 PM
Into turret lathes......;)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=330202373105&ssPageName=ADME:B:SS:US:1123

snowman
01-07-2008, 04:03 PM
LOL

It's like tool dip.

That is a cool little machine though.

pcarpenter
01-07-2008, 04:22 PM
Oooooh....and its Resale Red, too!

Paul

tony ennis
01-07-2008, 04:43 PM
Lol, is it a toy machine or a real machine?

IOWOLF
01-07-2008, 04:47 PM
It is real,Cornflake.

Keep asking questions like that and your Sig line may be your Epitaph. :)

tony ennis
01-07-2008, 05:05 PM
Pack a lunch if you want to epitaph me, sweetheart, cause it'll be a job! :D

Your Old Dog
01-07-2008, 05:10 PM
It sure is red. Is it pulsing? Or is it an optical illusion?

matador
01-07-2008, 05:24 PM
All jocularity aside,what could it originally have been used for?.It seems a little"agricultural":D for jewellers use.

lazlo
01-07-2008, 05:37 PM
Into turret lathes......;)

That actually looks like a horizontal boring mill Wolf.

Cute little thing, but My God -- the rattle-can paint job!

IOWOLF
01-07-2008, 05:38 PM
Perhaps a Second,3rd 4th, op. lathe.

Hell, with a VSR,DC motor,and a die head, it could do screws,or perhaps Pins.

topct
01-07-2008, 05:43 PM
All jocularity aside,what could it originally have been used for?.It seems a little"agricultural":D for jewellers use.

Making a bunch of little parts all the same and as fast as you could make the levers feed.

Or one part at a time. It is a lathe isn't it?

Takes a bit of a touch, but I have ran a lathe like that.

lazlo
01-07-2008, 05:49 PM
It is a lathe isn't it?

I don't think so: the workpiece appears intended to be mounted on the saddle T-slots, the saddle is lever driven, and no compound.

So my guess is horizontal boring mill.

IOWOLF
01-07-2008, 05:54 PM
Laslo, We heard your Opinion the first time, GEEEZ.

It is advertised as a Lathe.

pcarpenter
01-07-2008, 06:02 PM
Actually its a "turret mini bench lathe rare Atlas" according to the ad:D

You may both be right in that its a bit of dedicated machinery. A boring mill would not have a turret like that, however as far as I know. This is an older machine and back in the day, a lot of casings, cylinders etc. were bored in a lathe with the work mounted on a cross slide and a boring bar between centers.

I went and looked at a South Bend lathe from the teens (for my Uncle). It had sort of mini-t-slots at all four corners of the carriage designed for bolting down work to the cross-slide. Its like the one here:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/southbend/page2.html

Paul

lazlo
01-07-2008, 06:07 PM
It is advertised as a Lathe.

Oh, well if it was listed on Ebay as a lathe, it must be a lathe :rolleyes:

Too bad he didn't list it as a cold fusion reactor -- I've been looking for one of those...

mike petree
01-07-2008, 06:12 PM
"the workpiece appears intended to be mounted on the saddle T-slots"
Nah, stock fed through the spindle, form , cut-off tool or both mounted on the cross slide. Cute little turret lathe, or capstain lathe as some call it .

shiphorns
01-07-2008, 06:15 PM
I don't think so: the workpiece appears intended to be mounted on the saddle T-slots, the saddle is lever driven, and no compound.

You don't often see a compound rest on turret lathes, this lever-actuated cross-slide is the norm, and it's for mounting rigid tool posts. You don't mount your workpiece on there. You most often see the lever used for parting off and/or facing the stock; most work is done with the turret.

It's definitely a lathe, not a boring machine.

IOWOLF
01-07-2008, 06:17 PM
Thank you Mike, any one who has seen a TURRET LATHE Knows they have T slots on the Cross slide.

lazlo
01-07-2008, 06:19 PM
This is an older machine and back in the day, a lot of casings, cylinders etc. were bored in a lathe with the work mounted on a cross slide and a boring bar between centers.

But as far as I can tell from the picture, there's no carriage feed, just the lateral movement from the lever, like the Hardinge HLV lever-operated compound that Don was selling.

That seems very specific to boring, unless there's some way to move the carriage that's buried under the red mess on the front.

lazlo
01-07-2008, 06:36 PM
Nah, stock fed through the spindle, form , cut-off tool or both mounted on the cross slide. Cute little turret lathe, or capstain lathe as some call it .

Sure, although it's missing the capstan (the wheel to advantage the turret) :p
I'd say turret lathe if it had a movable carriage, but it doesn't look like it does.

This Sheldon is what I envision as the prototypical turret lathe (complete with capstan):

http://www.mfg.mtu.edu/cyberman/machining/trad/turning/turret.jpg

IOWOLF
01-07-2008, 07:21 PM
WTF do you think that BIG honkin lever is for on the right?

For YOU to ride? DUH Lever operated Turret.

lazlo
01-07-2008, 07:48 PM
It's a lever-operated turret, just like boring mills have ;)

A turret lathe has a movable carriage.
Where's the leadscrew (like the Sheldon turret lathe has) or the lever traverse to move the carriage?

J Tiers
01-07-2008, 07:55 PM
That guy offered it to me, for an amount that I considered to be too high, and I have been thinking and decided to turn it down, basically on price, combined with the missing parts. it was hard to do any research on those, there isn't much info out there.

Evidently he didn't want to wait..... he told me the price last Fri, IIRC.

lazlo
01-07-2008, 07:56 PM
So Jerry, what the heck is it? A turret lathe or a boring mill? :D

Who made it?

IOWOLF
01-07-2008, 07:57 PM
I refuse to go on with this argument on the grounds that you can not understand Machining on a turret lathe by Looking at just one picture of a Sheldon.

Though I probably don't deserve it ,Does anyone want to step in and straighten this guy out, like some of you have tried to do,Please.

lazlo
01-07-2008, 08:10 PM
Wolf, before you get a brain hemorrhage, let me try this a different way:

Name a turret lathe that has a carriage that does not traverse.
Every turret lathe I've seen does.

Warner and Swasey:
http://www.harrismachinetools.com/images/12990.jpg

Gisholt:
http://www.harrismachinetools.com/images/11971.jpg

Taiyo Seiki:
http://www.harrismachinetools.com/images/5805.jpg

I couldn't find a picture of a Kearney & Trecker turret lathe, but it has a movable carriage/leadscrew too.

IOWOLF
01-07-2008, 08:21 PM
Are you really that stupid, or did you even look at the photos of the Lathe In question?

Now, I will talk slow for you.

The lever on the right side operates the tailstock left to right, and right to left .

3jaw
01-07-2008, 08:21 PM
It is a turret lathe, not a boring mill. Like someone already posted, the t-slotted cross slide is for cutoff tools. Looks like a lot of it is missing.

Greg

lazlo
01-07-2008, 08:27 PM
Now, I will talk slow for you.

The lever on the right side operates the tailstock left to right, and right to left .

Yes, it has a lever operated tailstock. Just like a horizontal boring mill. We get it Wolf.

The problem is that it doesn't have a carriage, or apron, or saddle feed, unlike any other turret lathe (that I know of).
If you know of any other turret lathe that has an immovable saddle, like this "Atlas" does, please show us.

Milacron of PM
01-07-2008, 08:28 PM
Though I probably don't deserve it ,Does anyone want to step in and straighten this guy out, like some of you have tried to do,Please. Yeah, me of all people. Yes, it is a turret lathe....a SECOND OPERATION turret lathe and a very, very old one...probably 1890 or so. Some moron removed the original flat belt step pulley and slathered it with red paint and there you have it. Worth about 25 bucks.

Lazlo, the modern equivalent would be a Hardinge DSM 59.

Chipslinger
01-07-2008, 08:33 PM
It is a Turret lathe, no doubt.
However it uses levers rather than cranks to expedite things like on a second Operation lathe,and that works fine.
There is a Small horizonal mill that uses the same, the name escapes me now(old age I guess).

Mcgyver
01-07-2008, 08:36 PM
The problem is that it doesn't have a carriage, or apron, or saddle feed, unlike any other turret lathe (that I know of).
If you know of any other turret lathe that has an immovable saddle, like this "Atlas" does, please show us.

I don't know, just speculating, but if you set the cutters up right in the tailstock you could turn, bore, thread etc all from the tailstock then cut off from the cross slide.....small stuff, ME sized bolts etc. for $25 the old girl wouldn't have to go home alone :)

i think the paint jobs irk the most because its so damn insulting, saw a nice HLV in a dealers the other day, regulatory crap coat of grey on it, makes you immediately assume the worst throughout and resent the bozo who thinks you'll buy it cuz its shiny.

lazlo
01-07-2008, 08:42 PM
Yes, it is a turret lathe....a SECOND OPERATION turret lathe and a very, very old one...probably 1890 or so.

Lazlo, the modern equivalent would be a Hardinge DSM 59.

Thanks Don -- I stand corrected! I had never seen a turret/capstan lathe with an immovable carriage.

Sooo... why would you want a turret lathe that can't do turning operations (because the carriage is fixed) when the other turret lathes (like I posted above) can do all of the above? Cost?

It looks like all this lathe can do is boring, cut-off, and simple facing operations?

Wolfie: I officially eat crow :D

IOWOLF
01-07-2008, 08:47 PM
What You just ate was your own foot.

Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

In case you haven't noticed I get rather excited when I think I am right.

Bmyers
01-07-2008, 09:01 PM
I would like to see a Horizontal boring mill with a turret tail stock. does one exist ?

mike petree
01-07-2008, 09:07 PM
"Sooo... why would you want a turret lathe that can't do turning operations (because the carriage is fixed)" ?

Good question, Versatility is in the tooling. With a die head one can thread,
with form tools use your imagination, + boring, facing. True, these type don't have all the bells and whistles of a big a@@ Warner and Swasey but are a snap to set up extremely useful for low vol production.

My Rockwell turret lathe
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/copitec/Rockwell%20Turret%20Lathe/rock4.jpg

Quick acting crosslide detail with tool posts
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v19/copitec/Rockwell%20Turret%20Lathe/rock7.jpg

IOWOLF
01-07-2008, 09:35 PM
That is sweet, Do you know about the Yahoo Rockwell group?

Some would love to see that.

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/RockwellLathe/


I have a 14" delta Rockwell, Is that a 10 or 11"?

mike petree
01-07-2008, 09:41 PM
Thanks IOWOLF. Yes, I'm a member. Posted some pics there a while back.

lazlo
01-07-2008, 09:55 PM
Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

True, but it doesn't make sense to me to build a lathe that can't turn, and every example of a turret lathe in every machine tool book than anyone has ever mentioned here has a movable carriage like an engine lathe.

Moltrecht's Machine Shop Practice:
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Moltrechts.jpg

Burghardt's Machine Tool Operation:
http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/Burghardt2s.jpg

That's why I was asking if you could show an example of a turret lathe that had a fixed carriage.

Many thanks for Don for coming up with an example!

Thomas Staubo
01-07-2008, 10:21 PM
It sure look like a capstan lathe (or turret lathe as they're also called) to me.

I would take a guess that the saddle (carriage) is able to slide on the ways (by pushing it by hand?), but when the the lathe has been set up to make a certain part in a large quantity, the saddle is clamped solid to the ways, maybe from underneath.

Here's a picture of a somewhat similar lathe, a Murad (http://www.lathes.co.uk/murad/index.html):

http://www.lathes.co.uk/murad/img36.gif

You can't see any lead screw or hand wheel to move the saddle on that Murad lathe either, but it can obviously slide along the ways when necessary.


.

J Tiers
01-07-2008, 10:25 PM
Would it absolutely kill anyone to call it a "hand screw machine"....? And I don't mean due to the price, which was substantially over $25 as quoted to me. I'm totally with that $25, although I might have gone to $50, for which $$ one can get a T/S turret.

It has substantially all the features of for instance a Logan with bed turret and lever crosslide. EXCEPT of course, that it has ONLY ONE STOP for the ram (the Logan has one per tool position, MUCH nicer).

That was a deal killer for me. Especially with the missing pieces, which apparently include the one stop that it is SUPPOSED to have. And any vestige of the collet system. Not to mention the "one speed only pulley" replacing the original flat belt pulley.

There are some pictures of a "REAL" one of those at PM

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=148613

Apparently the old guys set up all the tooling to operate from the one stop that was provided. Pretty basic.

For what he wanted, I could get a long way into a bed turret, and I already have a t-slot crosslide..... I seem to have been making runs of threaded standoffs and the like, recently, and had even considered a plain tailstock turret. Tool changing and T/S cranking gets really old after a while.

But the lack of a lever T/S on my machine put me off of the T/S turret idea for the moment.

I think it really does qualify as a "turret lathe", but you have to view it as seen in 1900 or so. After all , it IS a Warner & Swasey...... They had to start SOMEwhere.

The ram asembly DOES slide, and clamp where needed. The lever then operates the ram.

Cutoff and basic turning can be done with crosslide tools, probably form tools, OR possibly by a box tool if the turned length is short.

That would seem to qualify it......

lazlo
01-07-2008, 10:33 PM
There are some pictures of a "REAL" one of those at PM

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=148613

I think it really does qualify as a "turret lathe", but you have to view it as seen in 1900 or so. After all , it IS a Warner & Swasey...... They had to start SOEMwhere.

Thanks Jerry -- so according to that thread it's a Warney & Swasey No. 1.

Here's a picture of what it should look like, without all the red paint slopped on:
(the actual picture is too big to post):

http://i231.photobucket.com/albums/ee219/wulf_2007/P1010086.jpg

jimsehr
01-07-2008, 10:35 PM
Logan made a lever operated front and back cutting att that could replace a moving carriage. I have used one and it worked well for the right job.
Remember you can turn with a slide head or a box tool in a turret.
jims

lazlo
01-07-2008, 10:59 PM
Right Jim, Don had a Hardinge Quick Acting Cross Slide for sale that did the same thing: it replaced the normal cross slide, and was lever-operated. IIRC, it had two toolposts, front and back.

By the way, I was looking at the Google entry for turret lathes, and they make a distinction between a capstan lathe and a turret lathe. They're calling the ram-type turret the capstan lathe, and if the turret slides on the bed, they call it turret lathe.

Capstan (Ram-type) lathe

The modern name for a capstan lathe used in industry is a ram-style turret lathe. A capstan lathe is a production machine that combines the features of the basic lathe along with a capstan style tailstock. This tailstock has a short slide upon which sits the hexagonal capstan head and a set of depth stops, one for each turret face. The main body is fixed to the bed in the required position and all longitudinal movement is via the short slide. The stroke of the capstan is short but the sequence can be rapid as the tooling indexes automatically at the end of the stroke. This indexing and movement is performed by turning a large levered handwheel as required. This type of Lathe is ideal to perform multiple matching operations with high accuracy and superior surface finish. Modern capstan lathes are referred to as ram-style turret lathes. They have a short spindle-to-turret distance, usually in the range of twenty to thirty inches. It is rare to find a capstan lathe with a lead screw or a taper attachment, as lead screw threading is usually far too slow for production. A die head is used instead.

Turret (Saddle-type) lathe

A turret lathe is a production machine that to all appearances is the same as the capstan, however the turret slides directly on the bed rather than being fixed. Movement of the turret can therefore be anywhere along the bed.1 Because of this feature, saddle-type turret lathes are far longer than the ram-type turret lathe. It is common to find saddle lathes longer than 200" for sale. Oil country and hollow spindle lathes are often of the saddle turret type.The main advantage associated with this type of lathe is that different machining operations such as drilling, reaming, boring etc., can be performed in a single tool setting by using different tools in a hexagonal turret. This considerably reduces tool setting time.

Wikipedia entries are essentially written by whoever edited it last, and the distinction they make between the capstan lathe and the turret lathe is cited to OldEngine.Org web page:

http://www.oldengine.org/members/diesel/Ward/Machine1.htm

That web page has a neat catalog of old Ward turret lathes. All of them have carriages, except the Ward No. 0, circa 1900 :)

torker
01-07-2008, 11:31 PM
That little red lathe is basically the same as my little Weiler turret machine.

Milacron of PM
01-07-2008, 11:58 PM
Would it absolutely kill anyone to call it a "hand screw machine"....? .... Brown and Sharpe called their smaller manual turret lathes simply "screw machines" (i.e. no "hand" in the moniker), but other companies used different names for the same thing. Another name was "monitor lathe", and in the UK, "capstan lathe" was a popular moniker.

I have W&S literature that is so old that it is apparently even before this eBay lathe was invented, as there are no #1, 2 or 3, etc Warner & Swasey lathes. They are referred to by their type (set over, forming, universal) and the swing. And yes, they called them "turret lathes" ;)

Having said that, the eBay one is of "screw machine" nature in that it has a lever type direct motion turret, as opposed to a starwheel rack and pinion motion type. Add a bar feed and calling it a "screw machine" could be justified I suppose.

BadDog
01-08-2008, 12:02 AM
Kinda neat little machine, at least when complete, but sorely limited it would seem.

I mentioned before, but Rockwell also provided similar features. I've got one of the double post slides, but it used a capstan wheel rather than a leaver. And the tool posts (which I am missing) provided multiple mounts on the front post, so you could do some limited form work, say a groove and chamfer, with a parting tool or something in the rear. And they had wedges to set the height. Pretty nice, but mine were swapped out for some more limited B&S versions somewhere along the line... <sigh>

lazlo
01-08-2008, 12:14 AM
Clausing has a similar attachment Russ -- it's a replacement cross-slide that has slotted toolposts front and back:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/clausing.jpg

THey also had a powered indexing tailstock turret.

IOWOLF
01-08-2008, 06:31 AM
Thank you for all your help in this matter.

I really wasn't telling anyone to buy it at that price,BUT,as a toy starter T/L It's not bad.

Oh look, T slots in a crossfeed table ,What a novel Idea for a TURRET LATHE. :)

ARFF79
01-09-2008, 02:42 AM
My B&S #11 is a "hand" screw with that style of cross slide and lever turret. My #2 Wire feed is similar but the turret has the standard spoked wheel and a power feed while the cross slide can be poisioned a little more accurately with a feed screw. You also have a choice in using a lever for production bar work or screw feed for secondary work. An interesting feature with the B&S machines, is that you can trip the bar feed mechanism during the return stroke after cutting off the part by setting a dog on the crossslide. With the right tooling and a little imagination, you can do just about all of the work on that machine that you could on a bench lathe of the same size. As was originaly posted, it would be a nice little toy for someone to play with but not at that price.

Milacron of PM
01-09-2008, 12:26 PM
My B&S #11 is a "hand" screw with that style of cross slide and lever turret. As I said, B&S themselves called what you have simply a "screw machine"...the "hand" word was not used...at least not in 1900. And they did have automatic screw machines back then as well. I could scan and post a typical B&S brochure page if anyone cares.

lazlo
01-09-2008, 12:45 PM
they did have automatic screw machines back then as well.

Wow, that's neat -- they had automatic screw machines at the turn of the century? :)


I could scan and post a typical B&S brochure page if anyone cares.

I'd love to see that D., if it's not a big imposition.

IOWOLF
01-09-2008, 03:46 PM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/iowolf/Turrets/SANY0619.jpg
B&O lever and crank crossfeed.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/iowolf/Turrets/SANY0626.jpg
Barfeed.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/iowolf/Turrets/SANY0625.jpg
Crossfeed bar advance.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/iowolf/Turrets/SANY0621.jpg
B&O topview, As you can see it gets used often.

IOWOLF
01-09-2008, 03:49 PM
Warner&Swasey
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/iowolf/Turrets/SANY0628.jpg

And tooling
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/iowolf/Turrets/SANY0629.jpg
Pay no attention to the Mild surface rust.

IOWOLF
01-09-2008, 03:56 PM
The Bardons and Oliver is dedicated to make these,for now.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/iowolf/Turrets/SANY0618.jpg

Alistair Hosie
01-09-2008, 04:18 PM
I wouldn't even want to take a small dive with that:DAlistair

IOWOLF
01-09-2008, 07:47 PM
I half expected to hear from Laslo by now,about how those must be Horizontal boring machines because they have T slots on the cross feed.:p

lazlo
01-09-2008, 08:16 PM
I half expected to hear from Laslo by now,about how those must be Horizontal boring machines because they have T slots on the cross feed.:p

What's that on your Warney & Swasey? Oh, it's a carriage :)

Why doesn't the little red screw machine have one of those? :p


I really wasn't telling anyone to buy it at that price,BUT,as a toy starter T/L It's not bad.

If your goal is to encourage people to try a turret lathe, you might not want to suggest one of the very few that doesn't have a carriage, and therefore can't turn.

torker
01-09-2008, 08:28 PM
Jay..the last pic of the B&O (from the first bunch) ..what does that tool at 3 oclock do?
And on the WS...where the center drill is...is that a bar stop then you swivel it around to use the center drill?
Yup...you got a bunch of tooling huh?
I don't even want to hear what you paid for the works :(
Russ

IOWOLF
01-09-2008, 08:43 PM
Laslo, It does turn, when you move the lever back.

Russ the 3 O'Clock tool is a 1" OD 1/2" id counter bore without the stud,It shaves down the aluminum to save wear and tear on the Form tool (in the cross feed).
The W&S has a dual tool,Stop and Center tool, it is the best jobs I have found for it and I have 7 turret positions now.

B&O $275 with 80 collets, W&S #3, $875 with all that tooling ,and more I can't use for a #4 and 5.

I had to Tell you.

pntrbl
01-09-2008, 09:03 PM
Torker, check out what this lot of 15 Hardinge turret tools just went off for. Too much for me! Especially when you realize I don't know what the hell they do ....

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=110210575915&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=001

SP

J Tiers
01-09-2008, 10:42 PM
If your goal is to encourage people to try a turret lathe, you might not want to suggest one of the very few that doesn't have a carriage, and therefore can't turn.

If by "turn" you mean make a cut on the outside of a workpiece, you are not using any imagination......

Ways to "turn" with the red thing (if it had more of its necessary parts).....

1) ANY standard "box tool" will turn an OD

2) A form tool on the forward/inward movement of the crosslide lever (I am assuming a cutoff tool on the rear position). It will turn behind a shoulder, which a straight box tool can't do.

3) Any thread cutting operation is "turning"

4) Any internal boring operation is 'turning".....


There are surely more, but that will do for the moment, and many others are really varieties of the above.

Of course if you mean a long shaft size reduction type operation, a turret lathe/screw machine might not be the best first choice anyway.

Of course if you mean more-or-less "free-hand cranked" turning operations, a turret lathe/screw machine might not be your best first choice either.


I notice he has no takers as of yet. No surprise, he has the minimum bid up at 30% more than he told me he wanted for it. And I thought THAT was unrealistic.

Pretty cute that he snuck in the "Atlas" word in the title..... pretty shameless attachment of a popular search term...... which is unrelated to the item, and I think ebay has some posting rules.......

He told me he was "giving it a chance on ebay before he hauls it to the scrapyard"............... :D


IOWOLF: I assume the tool you are referring to is the "hollow mill" that is under the tail of the calipers in the pic?

tony ennis
01-09-2008, 11:20 PM
Pretty cute that he snuck in the "Atlas" word in the title

You'd figure he's have stuck 'Monarch' in there instead.

andy_b
01-09-2008, 11:20 PM
He told me he was "giving it a chance on ebay before he hauls it to the scrapyard"............... :D


that must be one hell of a scrapyard if he's getting $200 for it there. at least if he had posted the thing for 10% above scrap price he may have gotten a bid.

andy b.

IOWOLF
01-10-2008, 06:04 AM
"IOWOLF: I assume the tool you are referring to is the "hollow mill" that is under the tail of the calipers in the pic?"

Yes,I got a bunch of those in a box at an Auction for $5.

J Tiers
01-15-2008, 11:22 PM
It didn't sell..........

I'm considering the idea of offering him the $25 or maybe $50 for it....... He isn't far away.