Picture for Evan

[lazlo]

Evan, when you were trying to identify your lever-operated horizontal mill, I vaguely remembered a discussion on PM about one that was very similar.
I just stumbled across the pictures, on a completely unrelated search.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=146210

This is a Nichols' lever-operated horizontal mill. The headstock is more modern, but it sure looks like it could be a direct descendant of your mill:

http://www.softorchestra.com/metal/nichols/nichols-mill-front.jpg

http://www.softorchestra.com/metal/nichols/nichols-mill-motor.jpg

[Evan]

Well, it's a lever operated mill alright. But that's about the only similarity that I see.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/smilla.jpg

[moldmonkey]

Evan,

Did you ever figure out anything else out on this mill? Maker or spindle taper? I realize you are in busy with the CNC mill (nice work, by the way) but your little mill really caught my attention.

TIA Jon

[Evan]

The spindle is a standard Shaublin nose and taper as used on many European mills. The maker will remain a mystery. If the largest machine tool dealer in Switzerland doesn't know what it is then there isn't much hope of finding out except by pure luck. Since it has no "pedigree" to be concerned with I feel free to modify it if I see fit. I'm going to make a vertical spindle adapter for it first. That should be a pretty trivial exercise since it is designed to use one anyway. It even came with a pair of riser blocks that will be ideal to fit to the vertical adapter which saves me building anything at that end.

[Milacron of PM]

Well, it's a lever operated mill alright. But that's about the only similarity that I see.

That was my thought as well, esp since yours is obviously European and the Nichols is obviously American...I see no connection between the two mills whatsoever. Lazlo seems to have this curious compulsion to make "connections" between types of machines...perhaps some therapy is in order to break this compulsion ;)

[lazlo]

Don, there's an obvious lineage between many of these machines. Your much hallowed Deckel FP1 is a copy of the Maho SK250, which was derived from Thiel Type 58.

Similarly, you took issue when Mike C. noted that the Abene VF-3 was derived from the (much earlier) Van Norman #12.


That Abene looks again suspicously similar to a Van Norman, heheh. Just has the ram on an angle.

Too bad the heirs ran Van Norman into the ground, it'd be interesting to see what they would have produced if given time.

I agreed with Mike's comparison, and posted pictures of the two machines side-by-side, but for some reason you turned your ire towards me. I guess Mike has been on PM a lot longer ;)

Van Norman:

http://images.machineryvalues.com/pict/132150.jpg

Abene:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/abene/img13.gif

[Milacron of PM]

Don, there's an obvious lineage between many of these machines. Your much hallowed Deckel FP1 is a copy of the Maho SK250, which was derived from Thiel Type 58.

Similarly, you took issue when Mike C. noted that the Abene VF-3 was derived from the (much earlier) Van Norman #12.



I agreed with Mike's comparison, and posted pictures of the two machines side-by-side, but for some reason you turned your ire towards me. I guess Mike has been on PM a lot longer ;)

I have only a vague memory of that thread, but at least that one made some sense, as there are indeed similarities between the Van Norman and the Abene. Other than the lever on X, there are almost no similarities between Evans mill and a Nichols mill. When I made the comment I was thinking of your recent turret lathe brain lock and trying to make connections there. So then you drege up this ancient history from another forum to try and salvage your honor I guess, but my point is "who cares?" really...why this desire to try and make historical connections between machine designs that may, or may not have been influenced each other ? No way to know really, so why even speculate about it ?

[lazlo]

Well, it's a lever operated mill alright. But that's about the only similarity that I see.

Your mill and the Nichols are very unusual in that they have both a rack and pinion feed and a conventional leadscrew table feed.

By the way, I'm not the first person to note the similarity:

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=309760&postcount=41


Look closely at the table feed, there is both a rack feed and a leadscrew. You can switch back and forth. There are others like this, such as Nichols.

Joe

[lazlo]

So then you drege up this ancient history from another forum to try and salvage your honor I guess

Huh? What does this have to do with the turret lathe discussion??

I noted that the little red lathe didn't have a carriage, and asked Wolf if he knew of another turret lathe that didn't (since all the turret lathes that I've seen, and that are described in machinery texts, have a carriage).

You posted an example of one, I stood corrected. How did I "lose honor" from that?

I'm an amateur machinist, and you're a machine tool dealer -- I'd certainly hope that you know more about these machines than I do :rolleyes:

By the way Don, I ran across that PM thread from a completely unrelated Google search. I had promised Evan a picture of the Nichols lever-operated miller awhile ago, but couldn't find the picture. So when I found it, I posted it. There's no conspricacy.

[Milacron of PM]

Your mill and the Nichols are very unusual in that they have both a rack and pinion feed and a conventional leadscrew table feed.

Nichols made many different versions of their mill. One of the Nichols models did have screw and rack on X axis, but never on Y axis...like Evans mill does.

[lazlo]

Nichols made many different versions of their mill. One of the Nichols models did have screw and rack on X axis, but never on Y axis...like Evans mill does.

They did Don:

Production Model with all the table movements controlled by levers.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/nichols/page3.html

http://www.lathes.co.uk/nichols/img13.gif

[Milacron of PM]

They did Don:

Very interesting, I stand corrected then. Never seen a Nichols like that, very rare I suspect. I have a 1970's Nichols full line brochure and no Y axis levers in there anywhere. I used to covet a Nichols a dealer owned that was basically two mills opposing each other with a single table in between. That way you could bore holes that aligned with each other easily, which would have been handy for the tapping machines I made back then.

[IOWOLF]

Wow How long did it take Lazlo to Dredge up that Photo to Prove Himself right, I bet He can't find two more.
















That may keep him busy for a while.

[Rustybolt]

Evan. It looks a lot like an early Burke horizontal mill.

[Evan]

Do you have a link to a picture anywhere?

[Charlie C]

Here is another Nichols mill that uses air to operate the table and uses a needle valve and oil to regulate the speed of the table. The mill also has the rack and pinion and screw and half nut

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/kcprecision/2006_0106Image0018.jpg

[lazlo]

Here is another Nichols mill that uses air to operate the table and uses a needle valve and oil to regulate the speed of the table.

That's pretty slick! It looks like the air cylinder driving the X-axis rack and pinion mechanism? What was the application?

Evan: this is a little Burke No. 0, from the Burke Yahoo group. I've re-uploaded it to my Photobucket account because you won't be able to see the picture inline unless you're a member of that group:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/BurkeNo0.jpg

...and this is a Burke No 4:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/BurkeNo4.jpg

[Evan]

That does bear a resemblance. The really big difference is that mine has the entire spindle carrier removable in a few seconds. It sits on a track a bit like a lathe carriage as you can see in this image.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/hmilldrill.jpg

[moldmonkey]

I like that mill more & more the more I see of it. That looks alot like the Hardinge/Elgin etc. split-beds. Very handy feature.


Edit: That rang a bell.
See HARDINGE CATARACT MILL (http://www.lathes.co.uk/cataract%20miller/index.html)

[Charlie C]

Lazlo the air cylinder drove the table, every thing else just went along for the ride. I think milling some sort of plastic.

[IOWOLF]

I hate to drag this one up again, but, What about the little Barker mill?

http://www.barkermill.com/Barker.htm

[Evan]

That's nice but what does it have to do with my mill?

I'm still highly suspicious of the tool dealer in Switzerland (Luthy Machines) that I contacted. The owner of the business e-mailed me to say that they had no idea what it was but admitted it was likely Swiss made. This is not what I expected from a company that keeps over 1500 new and used machines in stock and is a part owner of Shaublin Machines S.A.

The only thing I can think is that for reasons I can only guess at they don't want to talk about it.

[pcarpenter]

I don't recall just who it was from this group that corresponded with me in private messages regarding what turned out to be a boring head alignment whatzis for a SIP jig bore that I ended up with in order to get the centering scope that was included with it.

Whoever it was made reference to the sort of guild manufacturing that is part of the Swiss tooling and machine trade. I went to look up a couple of Swiss live centers I own and sort of stumbled on the same thing. It seems these smaller toolmaker guilds come, make a product and then either fade away, or become a part of another company. It makes it a bit hard to find any historical maker info for some things. Your mill may be another example.

I am no old tool expert, but it seems that machine tools in this country were a bit like this before say the Civil War. Some makers didn't even put thier name on thier product and some almost directly copied other makers products from what I understand.

Paul

[chandler0109]

Evan

I’m with you on the origin of your little mill, looks obviously European. It shares styling I’ve seen in other Swiss-built machinery. This might be a dead-end, but it seems like a lot of the folks that handle Tornos and Bechler (Swiss screw machines and clock/watch gearmaking equipment) also seem to handle Fresadoras milling machines – I can’t seem to find out much more than the name though – of course they build CNC equipment now, but maybe you can dig up a little more of their history……

For what it’s worth???

Chandler

[Evan]

There is no question that it came from Switzerland. It was brought to Canada about 25 years ago by a friend of the man I bought it from. That doesn't mean it was made in Switzerland but it is pretty likely it was. Even if it was from some small maker that didn't do a lot of business I would expect there to be more than one in existence. My shaper was made by the Whipp Company and they only produced machines for a few years. They aren't exactly a household name but there are still quite a few around.

[wierdscience]

That's nice but what does it have to do with my mill?


The only thing I can think is that for reasons I can only guess at they don't want to talk about it.

It's because they are pricks.I have dealt with three Swiss mfgs over the years,all were arrogant,condecending pricks.They want to sell new machines,not service or supply parts for old ones.The previlant attitude is "if there is something wrong with one of our machines,it's something you did you silly idiot,now go away"

In fact I would rather take a beating then go on a service call to a woodworking plant with Swiss,German or Austrian machinery in use.Over-rated,over-priced crap.Sorry for the rant,they just piss me off.

[oldtiffie]

..............................
...........................

Whoever it was made reference to the sort of guild manufacturing that is part of the Swiss tooling and machine trade. I went to look up a couple of Swiss live centers I own and sort of stumbled on the same thing. It seems these smaller toolmaker guilds come, make a product and then either fade away, or become a part of another company. It makes it a bit hard to find any historical maker info for some things. Your mill may be another example.

....................................
...................................
Paul
This is nothing new - its been going on for-ever.

A Guild was set up to protect and advance the commercial interests of its members - the owners of a specialist business enterprise.

Those members were "Master Craftsmen" and owners of a business with a vested interest in it.

The Guilds set and maintained the trade skills of the owners/members as well as those of the employees (Tradesman/Craftsman/Artisans).

The British "City and Guilds" trade/competency exams/tests and standards required for entry into or advancement within such "trades/callings" are a good example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guild

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=guild&fulltext=Search

There are any amount of them (Guilds) under other names in Commerce now - everywhere.

Now, about the "loss" of a company or its records and/or product-line/s.

A company may be formed with the express purpose of developing a name or a niche or specialist market to attract a take-over offer/bid from another company.

Quite often the owners make a "killing" and employees and trade and other creditors take a beating.

That "new-owner/ing "company" can "kill" the "acquired" company or its name or product or absorb it into its own product line and rename the product.

There is no requirement that I am aware of for the new company to maintain records of its "victim".

If the "target" company is a "private" (read "non-listed - on the Stock Exchange") company or partnership or "Sole Trader" there is no requirement to advise or inform anybody.

Some larger companies achieve their end/s by predatory pricing (ie selling at a price that the little company - read "victim/target") cannot sustain business or pricing and either "goes under" or else hostile acquisition is made by the predator. The result is the same.

Some companies either just "go under" because of the owner's incompetence or lack of business acumen. Some are sold or "wound up" when the owners successors or estate disposal (ie Trustee, Executor etc) managers just sell or "liquidate" it for their own end and reasons.

Think "Dot.Com" boom. Mining and minerals, IT, Funds Managers etc. etc.

Employees - they are a "cost" (read burden or "Loss") item.

Customers? They are a source of revenue.

Too easy.

Never heard of "Private Equity raiders"? You should read up on it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Private_equity

Now read up on "Sovereign Wealth Funds". A lot of the finance houses in the USA have - and used them recently.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special:Search?search=sovereign+fund&go=Go

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_wealth_fund

And shudder when you read this "China" one!!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/China_Investment_Corporation

This sort of thing is where a lot of "excess" US$ winds up.

Russia, China, South American, African and Arab states all have them.

So, I wouldn't worry about Swiss companies who are very well looked after by Swiss banks. Some of those Swiss conglomerates are huge.

Huge US companies have been "buying up" and "acquiring" both within and external to the US on a huge scale until fairly recently. It is still going on.

The Brits developed it into an art form where/when London was the premier banking "City" in the world.

The Venetians (citizens of Venice) and other European, Oriental and Arab trading nations, cities and "houses" have made fortunes at it.

I suspect that many "Industrialists", Bankers and Traders have a fair bit of this sort of thing in their pedigree.

I wouldn't get to sentimental about "old tools/machines" etc. whose manufacturer/s "faded away" for what-ever reason.

"Finding out" about them is best - or perhaps only - able to be done through enthusiast groups or museums etc.

"Swiss" machines and their manufacturers included.

I should think that Evan and Norm (aviemoron) are well qualified and able to comment on this sort of thing.

[Evan]

They want to sell new machines,not service or supply parts for old ones.

Umm, they are the largest used machine dealer in Europe. I don't think that is the reason. Besides, having to admit they don't know what it is is admitting they don't know everything about what they sell. I wouldn't expect that unless telling what they may know even less desirable.

It's kind of like finding a Swiss coin, calling the Swiss mint and being told they have no idea what it is or when it was made.

[lazlo]

It's kind of like finding a Swiss coin, calling the Swiss mint and being told they have no idea what it is or when it was made.

I think it' more like calling the Swiss Mint, showing them an unmarked coin, and being told that they have no idea what it is or when it was made, but you're sure it's a Swiss coin because you got it from a guy from Switzerland :)


The owner of the business e-mailed me to say that they had no idea what it was but admitted it was likely Swiss made.

According to the email reply you posted from the Luthy dealer from the Swiss machine tool dealer, he said that he had never seen it before, and that maybe it was Swiss.


Dear Sir,

Thanks for your here-below e-mail.

Unfortunately we do not know at all this machine and we cannot help you.

Maybe it is Swiss but quite old.

Sorry.

Kindest regards


LUTHY MACHINES S.A.
Managing Director
Laurent Luthy


You were inferring the Swiss origin based on the type font of the oil port, but that sure looks like a French Didot font...

Occam's Razor:

Considering that your mill is a line-shaft machine, and they haven't made lineshaft machines since the early turn of the century, it seems incredibly unlikely that it's a Nazi machine, like you seem to believe.

[Evan]

You were inferring the Swiss origin based on the type font of the oil port, but that sure looks like a French Didot font

No, I'm inferring Swiss manufacture from the fact that it was purchased in Switzerland by a Swiss National who personally imported it to Canada. He told the owner I bought it from that it was Swiss. He has long since returned to Swizterland and his whereabouts are unknown so I cannot contact him.

The Nazi angle is but one possibility. The late 1930's aren't that far removed from the turn of the 20th century. As well, my 1937 South Bend lathe is basically a line shaft design. It would require no modification to run from an overhead line shaft.