Wind power - from the HSM shop???

[oldtiffie]

As it seems to be a "slow day" I thought I'd lighten things up a bit and post a couple of pics (one came by email and the other from today's paper) that could have had their origin/concept in a HSM shop.

Very little carbon foot-print or just a lot of wind!

I must say I liked the the thought behind them!!

Any others in a somewhat lighter vein than some recent posts regarding "energy"?

[darryl]

At first glance it seems like the sail doesn't have enough area to catch that much wind. A fuel savings of up to 35% doesn't seem possible, but who am I to say how much push (or pull) it takes to make a loaded freighter get up to speed. I suppose with the size of the freighter that kite looks too small, but really at 160 sq meters it's only the size of my house. Either A- I'm underestimating the power of the wind, or B- I'm overestimating the fuel consumption of the cargo ship.

Glad to see another manifestation of wind energy again, though.

I like the lil red wagon hauler. Does that cart have the towing package?

[interiorpainter]

Your fuelsavings will rise even further going dead slow.
I really like that scooter idea. How about a roof.

[Your Old Dog]

I like the lil red wagon hauler. Does that cart have the towing package?

I have that exact scooter from my Fathers estate. I used it when my ankle was crushed and yes, it seems to have the towing package! I used it to load the garbage into a garden wagon and it was surprisingly powerful

I think the sail on the tanker is a hot of huey perpretrated on a willing new media. But that's not to say the tanker industry shouldn't be concerned. Put this pic in a few more newspapers around the world and they'll be on everything that floats.....including turds!

[J Tiers]

Hooey.......... yep, there has to be a LOT of stuff not mentioned..

Apparently nobody thinks the old time clipper ships were a good model. Very efficient, made for the best usage of the wind possible at the time, maximum speed, with the best "lines" and a huge amount of sail relative to the hull.

I suspect that "sail" is smaller than the sail area of a clipper, which is a VERY much smaller ship.

That can't "sail" at all except with the wind, the type of "sail" has no significant capability to vector the wind into a forward force if the wind isn't nearly dead aft.

I'd be surprised if the savings were even measureable over a whole trip.

[Evan]

I have a small collection of stunt kites including one of the very first 4 line double diamond kites ever made. I have a six foot standard swept back "hang glider" type kite too. It probably has an area of about 1/2 to 3/4 sq meter or so. In a decent breeze it will almost lift me off the ground. In a good wind it will take off with me attached.

I would guess that parasail would produce at least a couple of thousand pounds of thrust (pull) in a good breeze and maybe 10 to 20,000 in a stiff wind. It doesn't take a lot of power to make a long ship go slow. A quick check on the power plants fitted to the narrow canal boats shows numbers such as 43 hp for a 55 foot 18 ton vessel. That's the same power as my Land Rover.

[edit]

Also, my stunt kite can be flown from nearly 90 degrees to either side and almost directly overhead. The force vector downwind is proportional to the cosine of the angle.

[Lew Hartswick]

Hooey.......... yep, there has to be a LOT of stuff not mentioned..

That can't "sail" at all except with the wind, the type of "sail" has no significant capability to vector the wind into a forward force if the wind isn't nearly dead aft.

I'd be surprised if the savings were even measureable over a whole trip.

Yep. Thar was my first statement when I saw the picture in the news.
What a farce. As if the wind was always from behind. The solid airfoils
that were in the news a few years ago (mounted vertically) look a
lot more promising.
BUT you never know, how many remember when the first
"winglets" were invented ? It was on sailplanes and it took many
years to finally show up on big planes. Now they all have them.
...lew...

[davidh]

this website may explain it. . .

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2006/01/beluga_shipping.html

[hitnmiss]

Like Evan I was going to mention stunt kites. Mine was about the size of a medium TV and in a stiff (20mph) wind it felt like it would almost lift me (I'm not small!)

When I was a kid I hauled my 2 man raft to the local pond on the handle bars of my Stingray bike. Wind was blowing pretty good and suddenly I was moving way faster than I was comfortable with. I stopped but just barely.

Funny, it never crossed my mind to let go of my boat... Took a lot of mowing to buy that boat.

[Prokop]

wind power? That reminds me of this interesting project:

http://www.otherpower.com/bartmil.html

If it was already posted here, my apologies

[A.K. Boomer]

Keep in mind that about half the surface area of that sail is useless -------- look to where its mounted, its not attached to that black mast, its attached to the deck, In order to calculate the vector simply follow the chutes main lines, (close to 45 degree) Aprox. half of the sails energies are actually going to lifting the Bow rather than towing it, while this may be ever so slightly beneficial (due to having .0000001% less bow in the water) it pales in comparison to the lost effort in direct pull, also note that this reduces the area of the sail itself as it has to put in in an indirect angle to the power source, _----------- so -- that already out of proportion picture that everyones talking about, think aprox. 1/3rd less, now with the remaining 2/3rds think about 1/2 of that pulling skyward Gotta admit its great advertising though, although the back of the ship and top cargo with gaps is creating much much more effective work... (granted you dont get to fold them up and put em away in a head wind Knuck, knuck knuck )


The Old bird on the rascal however is a lesson of direct efficiency, he's getting twice the amount of effective work done for little expenditure (she cant weigh over 45 lbs soaking wet), He's got the 6.2 volt because thats a box stock tow package --- he's obviously got it "sprung" -- there are to many modifications to list, Also -- the old birds no stranger to towing as you can see from his hitch angle, could stop on a pair of soiled depends and still not have the queen pass him by in a jackknife --- Dudes the real deal....

[Evan]

Keep in mind that about half the surface area of that sail is useless

Not at all. All of the sail plays a part in generating lift. You can't cut away half of the sail and still have the same sail. The force being generated isn't made by "catching" the wind like a flat plate. It's produced by generating lift the same as a wing. That also means the force vectors aren't quite what you think. For instance, the fastest point of sail for a sailboat is not running downwind. It's a beam reach going directly across the wind or slightly "off" the wind. As the boat moves it also generates a different wind direction due to it's motion called the relative wind. This actually increases the apparent velocity of the wind on reaches. The thrust is produced by the action of the sail not just making lift but by doing so by changing the direction of the wind. The entire area of the sail is responsible for doing that.

Also, a simple square sail is not limited to just running down wind. I have sailed many miles with a square sail and it can reach to either side about 45 degrees course made good, even further with a keelboard.

This is the square rig I would use when I didn't feel like putting up the full sloop rig on my canoe.

[jkilroy]

Most of the ships entering San Francisco Bay do so at pretty high speed, 16+ knots under the bridge. You would have to have some stiff wind to not over-run the sail.

[Evan]

That's because the tidal current under the Golden Gate approaches 12 knots at times, if I recall correctly. I was born in Berkeley. I would think they would reel in the assist kite before making port.

[jkilroy]

Evan, I just wanted to point out that these big ships are making some serious speed in the open ocean, 18 knots is no problem. Those tankers coming into SF are hitting on 16 knots AGAINST the tide! So in my mind you would have to have consistent wind speeds faster than the ships speed for it to work no?

I have no doubt that with a nice surface area and a good breeze that you could get plenty of pull. The web site says they got 5 tons of force out of the prototype in less than ideal conditions. You could probably use three or four of these things in monster size on a big tanker (1000+feet) or container ship (Approaching 2000 feet now) That would have to be worth a lot of power.