View Full Version : OT – why I like this forum

dan s
01-26-2008, 12:29 AM
I just finished reading a bunch of posts on PM; it’s never been clearer than it is now why I post here and not there.

1. I don’t have to read about how everything from global warming to the economy is china’s fault.
2. I don’t have to worry about asking a question about a machine smaller than a bp.
3. I don’t have to worry about asking a question about a tool that doesn’t have made in the USA stamped on it.

The list could go on for a few pages, but I think these are the top three.

tony ennis
01-26-2008, 12:53 AM
I lasted on PM about a day. And that was that.

01-26-2008, 01:01 AM
Read my post count...99% stoopid questions. Never once has anyone made me feel stoopid here.

01-26-2008, 01:45 AM
We do global warming here too. It just hasn't been a decent interval since the last one. What we need is a nice juicy one sided partisan news story with questionable science and an obvious bias toward the stupidly simplistic 15 second sound bite style of reporting on complex matters with even more complex possible interpretations and tentative solutions that are at best slightly effective and more commonly totally worthless.

01-26-2008, 02:11 AM
Don (milacron) rules with an iron fist. he will ask a question then call you a fool when you give your opinion.

He is a Nazi goderator and a control freak, I see no reason to ever go there and put up with his abuse and snotty attitude.

I will keep my clicks and support on forums that have some degree of respect for its members and are not heavily moderated. We are adults and dont need a mother to watch over us.

01-26-2008, 02:36 AM
I too prefer this site, but there is nothing to be gained by making disparaging comments about the PM board in general, or the intelligent people who typically post there (many of which also post here).

01-26-2008, 02:44 AM
Don is a jerk, I wont mix words. Anyone who can read can see that.

01-26-2008, 04:13 AM
I agree with Torker, we are not all dyed in the whool machinists with man and boy spent in the engineering industry. If some of the questions seem a little simple or easy its just that some of us have spent our lives in a different sphere of endeavor and even the simple mundane things are new and unknown, so understand and pass on the explanation or knowledge and cut out the 'its to easy for words lecture'.
I would like to thank all the contributors here who enter into the spirit of the forum and pass on good information and the occasional 'funny' remark!!
So to all lurkers come on in its better here than the other place!!


Peter N
01-26-2008, 04:20 AM
I much prefer this site as well.
It's far more relaxed over here and there are some incredibly clever projects and ideas that arise on this board, which are far more pertinent to what we might *want* to do with our machines, rather than what people *have* to do over there.

TBH I believe that 90% or more of the membership on the PM site really belong more over here than over there if they would admit it to themselves.

Nevertheless, PM is also a fascinating and useful site with some very clever and experienced posters and provides a valuable insight for the HSM into industrial levels of our hobby.

I'm a bit of an in-betweenie. I design and sell injection moulding tools and moulded products and assemblies for a living, and my partner runs a full-time toolmaking shop and has done for over 30 years.
I'm in there 2 days out of 5 every week and it's been like this for me for the past 25 years. But I have a hobby shop that I started 3 years ago to get back into making parts myself.


01-26-2008, 05:40 AM
and you are allowed to say, "I hope this helps !".

01-26-2008, 09:56 AM
and you are allowed to say, "I hope this helps !".

Just don't put it in your sig. :D

01-26-2008, 10:04 AM
Dan. The first shop I worked in as a kid was a T&D shop in Skokie Ill. staffed almost completely with guys from Germany. They went out of their way to make sure you not only knew how, but also why. It was like a classroom you got paid for attending. It was a lot of fun. I could never understand the attitude of anyone in this business who would not impart what they've learned to someone else. This site is a lot like that first shop.

Frank Ford
01-26-2008, 11:23 AM
I find both forums (fora?) inviting, interesting and welcoming.

Don tries to stick to the rules he set out clearly, and as a moderator of two forums myself, I know that it's necessary to steer things back on track sometimes. If I have one criticism, it's that he's more lax than I am when it comes to shutting down long threads that deteriorate into personal, political or other bickering.

He has a blunt, sometimes abrupt style of communicating, but that does NOT make him deserving of the kind of cheap name-calling posted above.

01-26-2008, 11:33 AM
I think Don has, in general, been pretty consistent about locking threads about Harbor Freight-class machines. Locking the gauge block thread because the blocks in question were Chinese was a mistake, in my opinion, since many of the Starrett, SPI, Fowler, and Brown & Sharpe metrology tools are now made in China.

But nobody's perfect, and it seemed like a casual question (re: whether the gauge blocks had a mass-produced cert sheet), so I don't understand why it created such an uproar on PM. It didn't help things when that young kid jumped in and started slinging sh!t...

01-26-2008, 11:35 AM
I agree with Frank.

I guess it is kinda hard to hurt my e-feelings

dirty old man
01-26-2008, 11:41 AM
You have quite accurately expressed my sentiments on this thread and the inumerable predecessors to it on this same subject. I enjoy this forum, as well as "PM", "HM", and even "MI', and post on them all. But I do try to respect the owners/operators of each in their requirements of posting parameters.
If my 70 years of life has taught me anything at all, it is to try to see past someone's way of expressing their requirements, thoughts and etc., and see what is behind that in the context of motive and desired result.

01-26-2008, 11:44 AM
Evan said:

What we need is a nice juicy one sided partisan news story with questionable science and an obvious bias toward the stupidly simplistic 15 second sound bite style of reporting on complex matters with even more complex possible interpretations and tentative solutions that are at best slightly effective and more commonly totally worthless.

I like that! :) Evan, you have an astonishingly effective way of putting words together. I've cut-and-pasted that sentence into my "favorite quotes" file. Someday, it will be useful. For sure, Evan, I'll give you proper credit for that masterpiece.

Best regards,


01-26-2008, 12:18 PM
I'm not sure who originally said "Easy writing is devilish hard reading and easy reading is devilish hard writing" but it is true.

Some good reading here:

The Century Vocabulary Builder
Creever & Bachelor

Sometimes a dexterous use of words appears to us to be only a kind of
parlor trick. And sometimes it _is_ just that. The command of a wide
vocabulary is in truth an accomplishment, and like any other
accomplishment it may be used for show. But not necessarily. Just as a man
may have money without "flashing" it, or an extensive wardrobe without
sporting gaudy neckties or wearing a dress suit in the morning, so may he
possess linguistic resources without making a caddish exhibition of them.
Indeed the more distant he stands from verbal bankruptcy, the less likely
he is to indulge in needless display.


01-26-2008, 12:19 PM
my favorite "that statement is utterly meaningless"

Lew Hartswick
01-26-2008, 12:32 PM
We do global warming here too. It just hasn't been a decent interval since the last one. What we need is a nice juicy one sided partisan news story with questionable science and an obvious bias toward the stupidly simplistic 15 second sound bite style of reporting on complex matters with even more complex possible interpretations and tentative solutions that are at best slightly effective and more commonly totally worthless.

Evan, Was that all one sentance???? :-)

01-26-2008, 01:09 PM
I post on PM, here and the Home Machinist. I prefer this site and with that said tattoomikes first sentence is right on. His second sentence is a little bit of a strech but it's his opinion. I don't reply very often to Don's threads because I think many times he is looking for support on his idea and not diverse opinions. He has tongue lashed me several times.

I have to agree that many of the members at PM would be better served to post their questions here. In a recient thread at PM I suggested that if Don is interested in manufacturing and professional machinists that he limit the site to just those and eliminate the OT's that seem to cause so much trouble. No response to that and he knows it would cut his site by two thirds at least but it would be a site more to his liking.

The reason I like this site is you can post your opinion or the way you do something, etc. and with the exception of a few trouble makers no one rakes you for it. In fact the discusion of why it's done and how by many is much more interesting here than anywhere. No one here seems to call themselves "the supreme machinist and my way is better than anyones". While we have lively discussions to me they are just that, discussions.

I consider this site and CTOA, a tractor site, much like a coffee shop where people drift in and out and the discussion is lively and educational and not belittleing or derogatory.

dan s
01-26-2008, 03:01 PM
Don’t get me wrong, I would say most members on pm are friendly, & open minded individuals. However a handful of them bring to mind the old man down the street who is pissed off at world and blames everyone else for his problems and insecurities (metaphorically speaking).

I have only posted on PM once (been a member for over a year), and thus have not had to deal with Don. I would have to say I agree with mike on his assessment of Don

OK new topic….
Do you have any more trig problems mike?

01-26-2008, 03:15 PM
Evan, Was that all one sentance???? :-)

Heh. Intended as such. While it does have a couple of conjunctions it is still grammatically correct, I believe. :D

01-26-2008, 03:20 PM
OK new topic….
Do you have any more trig problems mike?

Not yet, my buddie taking the class will bring some by in a few days I am sure.

01-26-2008, 06:41 PM
Read my post count...99% stoopid questions. Never once has anyone made me feel stoopid here.

You were Stoopid if you Passed on that batch of tooling.:)

01-26-2008, 07:51 PM
I agree with Frank.

I guess it is kinda hard to hurt my e-feelings

ditto - for some reason, though, i almost never visit the pm forum. Everyone here seems so friendly and i feel like i've got at least some clue who it is i'm talking to here. I've never had any bad expierences at the PM, but i dont think i've ever posted my own thread either. I just never felt like i was up to their level. Maybe someday.

01-26-2008, 08:48 PM
I go and read the post from time to time . Interesting but have only answered a few.But face it we are all a bunch of pricks in somebody eyes. that is just life.

01-26-2008, 08:53 PM
I've been over on the PM board for maybe 4 years or so. I've been in the business for about 6 years. I check in here every so often, I enjoy the cool stuff you mostly homeshop guys do. Its just neat, I love the pics, and stuff I wouldn't even think twice about buying you guys are making. It makes the metal thing fun, because it is fun, and seeing people enjoying what I'm doing for money makes my job easier, it really does,I just wish I had more time to do the fun stuff, there are times I wish it was just a hobby, but there is little I would rather be doing, male prostitute perhaps??

I post rarely here, only when I see something that I know about, hoping I can help a bit, I hope I have, though I have been chewed at least once. It happens.

Now that I've said that, and though I may not post much, I enjoy it, but some of you guys get really cranky about the PM board. To me its two totally different worlds. Its a different focus over there, Quicker, better, faster, lots of forklifts. Over here its more, look at this cool widget I made, how do I square my vice?, HSS vs Carbide(I hate that one, lots of misinformation and myths).

Anyways, I can understand Milacron (D in the past) stopping some of the do
i get a 7X14 or 9X20 lathe threads for. Thats what this and a few other forums are for. Post it here, its that simple, most of the people bitching post stuff like that over there, then bitch that it got closed, whoever, they say they prefer here more. So...why didn't you post it at your preferred board first??? (I still don't understand the chinese gage block thing, I use them all the time, cheap, accurate enough and great spacers that you can trash).

Ask the stuff about $30 indexers here, you will probably get a better response. If you want to know Mazak or Mori, you will probably get a better response over there.

I wouldn't bitch too much, there is a great amount of knowledge in both boards, the PM having more traffic. If all the people complaining about the other place got the answers they wanted over there, and didn't have to come over here, then this place wouldn't exist.

Be thankful, there are some great OTs here, there are some great OTs there, but D.Thomas(Milacron) does refer people to here, can he be all that bad. Different boards, different purposes, pretty simple. I actually have a 9X20 and if I needed help, I would ask here, why, because its the right place to do it, the PM is not, I'd get more responses here anyways, and I know this.

Some people need to relax, its a message board, there are other message boards that fit the need better(that are referred to), who cares???? Have fun, learn something, help somebody. This didn't exist all too long ago, enjoy the info.

BTW, I'm jealous of you home shop guys getting to do what you want, and getting to make what you want. Though, I guess you have real jobs that are probably not as much fun, so I guess I'm not too too bad making chips all day every day, literally, ALL day, EVERY day.

01-26-2008, 09:23 PM
You were Stoopid if you Passed on that batch of tooling.:)
Jay...Thanks for your advice! The tooling is mine. Got it for a touch over $100..shipping in.

01-26-2008, 09:42 PM
They try to answer questions instead of attacking people as happens on the PM board, the PM moderator also has a nasty habit of shutting down any thread that tends to be pro-American or has a conservative bent. If you want to blame America first the PM board is the place to be.
Disagreement is fine but there is a large group over there that attacks everyone who doesn't subscribe to their views.

01-26-2008, 10:08 PM
The term HSM has a stigma among machinists who make a living at it. They can regard the HSM as buffoons (such as myself) when they don’t realize the membership may be made up of many guys (and ladies I hope) who are retired machinists or folks who DO make a living from their home shops.

Hell, we have folks here that are dedicated to the metal working profession and they just enjoy the company. It shouldn’t put a lower grade type label but it does. So WHAT, everyman should be comfortable in his own skin and not even think twice about what someone has to say to judge them.

And so, that’s why I love this group of guys, I can comfortably come here and ask the simplest of questions and get nothing but positive responses, without worry of lookin stoopid..

That being said, I can go to the PM forum and do the same thing. There are so many very helpful guys there also. Specially in the sub-groups. For example, the Monarch forum. Go take a peek. There are some basic questions asked and nuthin but positive responses from all the guys. No matter what or how simple the question. They are always willing to help.

Granted, if the topic of the HF carbide grinders were brought up on the general PM forum it might get bashed. So be it. That’s why I always come here.

Each place has its high qualities and I would be lost without both of them. Thanks for ALL your posts guys. Don’t ever stop steppin out. I say this to the lurkers. Step out and enlighten us with your Projects.. I wanna see them all, no matter how basic... JRouche

Rookie machinist
01-26-2008, 10:25 PM
Best thing about this board is the people who post here. I found the PM board first and was run off by dillacrons poor reply to a simple question I asked. The posters here seem to be more helpful and I aslo like the fact that I can ask the most basic questions here and not be called ignorant for asking. Maching is my new hobby and I like a place where I can ask questions and get good answers on how to solve my problems.

01-26-2008, 10:41 PM
JR...well said!

01-26-2008, 11:32 PM
I think what makes this forum so "user freindly" is the wide variety of individuals and their professional backgrounds that make the difference and make this forum one better for general questions. You can feel comfortable asking a question about your tractor, your medication, your tools, anything you can even slighlty relate to machining.

I think this is part of the reason why some of the projects are so creative because I would attack a problem differently than many others but it is always good to get seveal opinions because chances are that someone here has probaly been there and done that.

Also every body here seems to have differnent tools ( inventory of tools) at their disposal which will also lead them to solve many problems in very creative and different ways that would never enter my way of thinking but upon seeing them I am amazed and in awe at some of the inginuety found here.

There are professional machinists, retired machinists, welders, doctor(s), even salesmen and others.

Thanks to all.

01-27-2008, 12:39 AM
I visit here , PM, Chaski, and CNC. As you can see I haven't posted much here in the last few years, being content as a reader. Most of my posts on PM have been on the Antique forum as my home shop is old American iron. I'm left alone there for the most part but feel for those with pacific rim equipment! Don has no mercy on them, but it's his game, his rules. If you avoid the demi-gods and ledgends in their own minds who thrive on the General
board it's not too bad.

I wish this site had a Antique section, I'd be here more often. And if my typing were faster, I'm sure I'd be posting here as well! Even so, I'm here all the time, and do keep up with whats happening here! As an HSMr this site covers my interests very well. Keep it going.


01-27-2008, 12:45 AM
I'm a member of several boards, on some I offer advise, others I am seeking it. It changes because of the topic.

My view of PM, is that it should be renamed Production Machinist, to reflect the general tenor of the group. That's a fair representation of the folks and their view. ANYTHING Chinese seems off topic, as demonstrated by locking a discussion on +-50 millionths accuracy blocks, made in China. If Don wants to run his site that way, FINE WITH ME, just put it in the posting guidelines!!! As I tend to get rather prickly when I feel attacked.

Folks here seem more friendly, and more diverse in knowledge. Not so much focus on the buck. Some folks have much more info, some need it. There is a much broader base of knowledge and experience.

Then, the Chaski board is a LOVE IN, And, since I am an early boomer, and grew up in the 60's, it's comfortable. I get no real help, but that's not the goal there, I can offer information.

My perception.

J Tiers
01-27-2008, 12:54 AM
I find that different forums have different characteristics.

Some questions I would never consider asking here, but I'd ask on PM anytime:

1) if it is about a "production" type issue, involved with a run of parts I am making (typically for work). Just more people who would know there, less "noise".

2) if it is about a particular and somewhat obscure machine, I suspect more people who might know are on PM. That little red W &S turret lathe is a case in point.... at least two people on PM actually HAD one, PLUS the guy who wanted to sell it to me before he put it on ebay.

Other questions I would never ask there, and only here.

And if I make something I think is cool, I'd never bother to post about it there, those guys have made better stuff than whatever it is, while they were apprentices.

As far as Chaski........ it used to be THE site, but after Don aka Milacron started his, the Chaski site basically folded up.

No sense ever asking anything there, unless you want to ask Harold. Takes days to fill a page with posts there, and some forums have the last post dated months ago.

01-27-2008, 11:03 AM
It is kind of interesting why Milacron chooses to be so abrasive at times. I'm sure it is just his personality, but he doesn't try to disguise it in any way. Not that I'm being critical, because as others have said, it's his forum and he sets the rules, so each member has to deal with that if they choose to post there. I personally do not have a problem with that and just tend to not get involved in his threads, most of which are very narrowly focused.

Menace mentioned the bias against Pacific Rim machines and that is not completely accurate (not to be picky). Milacron has lots of tolerance for the better manual machines from that area of the world, such as Mori Seiki, Takisawa, Wacheon, etc. just to mention a few lathe manufacturers. Point is, he has moved on to the CNC world, because that is where production machining is at and generally will be. Also he is in the business of buying and selling machine tools and has found that he cannot make money off of HSM type people, because we don't want to, or can't pay the kind of money for machines that he deals with.

Will probably post more on this forum in the future, instead of reading, as I have been. It does seem to be a friendlier place than the "other" forum.

Dave A

01-27-2008, 03:12 PM
I have difficulty understanding the mentality of many of the people over there. Most of the members there consider themselves the best in the business yet I have read some questions posted there that I consider very basic. I have had no formal training in machining other than high school machine shop. I am a licenced heavy equipment mechanic. I obtained my own machine tools as a hobby. I now work at a golfcourse maintaining the equipment and once my boss saw how beneficial it was to be able to fabricate and repair various parts he wasn't long purchasing a new lathe and vertical mill for the shop.I am the kind of person who will help others any way I can. I wouldn't think of criticizing another person for asking any type of question. If I have an answer for them I will help them out.Everyone I have encountered on HSM has been the same- very helpful. I haven't been on PM in months and I have no intention of going back.If being a production machinist means you have to be snippy and arrogant to everyone who is asking for help I'm glad I'm not one.Hope this helps!

01-27-2008, 06:39 PM
It is kind of interesting why Milacron chooses to be so abrasive at times.
He's just getting old & crabby.
But seriously, I've noticed in the past year or so, he's become VERY short tempered, and adusive towards his forum members.
If someone posts an 'off-topic' thread that he doesn't like, or asks a question that isn't up to Don's level of super-intelligence, he reams the guy a new ass.

01-27-2008, 07:30 PM
I've posted a couple of times on the South Bend site at PM and they were great.

I guess if the foreman is a pain the shop is no fun.

01-27-2008, 08:33 PM
Also he is in the business of buying and selling machine tools

I hope he doesn't treat his customers like he does a lot of his forum members.

J Tiers
01-27-2008, 09:00 PM
I find that Milacron often simply puts in words what I am thinking....... Maybe that makes me some sort of %^$#!@!, dunno.

Some people do not "tolerate fools gladly".

I don't, but I generally can keep from showing it if I have any incentive. Milacron is a little more "forward" about it. OK, people differ, get used to it.