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View Full Version : Please confirm MW article on Penetrating Oil



63Avanti
02-04-2008, 08:03 PM
The material below has been making the rounds of the internet for months. Could someone look up the Machinist Workshop issue and confirm/debunk as appropriate. Also, could someone fill in the gaps on what the test was attempting to demonstrate? Does it apply to seized engine bolts and rusted frame nuts?

"The April/May 2007 edition of Machinist's Workshop did a test of penetrating oils where they measured the force required to loosen rusty test devices. Buy the issue if you want to see how they did the test. The results reported were interesting. The lower the number of pounds the better. Mighty interesting results for simple acetone and tranny fluid!

Penetrating oil . Average load .. Price per fluid ounce
None ................. 516 pounds .
WD-40 .............. 238 pounds .. $0.25
PB Blaster ......... 214 pounds .. $0.35
Liquid Wrench ... 127 pounds .. $0.21
Kano Kroil ........ 106 pounds .. $0.75
ATF-Acetone mix.. 53 pounds .. $0.10

The ATF-Acetone mix was a 50/50 mix (1 to 1 ratio)."


thanks! :D

JCHannum
02-04-2008, 09:52 PM
Back issues are available from Village Press, the sponsors of this site. I suggest you contact them and purchase the issue in question.

IOWOLF
02-04-2008, 09:54 PM
It was Power steering fluid not atf, according to the photo.

wierdscience
02-04-2008, 10:18 PM
I've used ATF and diesel mixed together for years and I can say it does work better than WD.

kendall
02-04-2008, 10:20 PM
The only reason I keep ATF around is for freeing stuck bolts.
I haven't tried mixing it with acetone, but it seems like it would work great, acetone would thin it out enough to flow easier.


Ken.

lazlo
02-04-2008, 11:21 PM
Wow, that's really surprising. I've been a PBlaster fan for a long time, but Liquid Wrench spanks it. Kroil is good stuff, but besides being ridiculously expensive, it's also very hard to find (and apparently not much better than Liquid Wrench).

ATF+Acetone is half of the "Ed's Red" formula. But IOWolf is saying the real formula is power steering fluid + Acetone?

By the way, is it just me, or does Liquid Wrench smell like sh!t? I kinda like the smell of PBlaster :)

TGTool
02-04-2008, 11:31 PM
I seem to recall some write-in discussion of the discrepancy between the picture and the text and the author confirmed that it was ATF he used, but the quick picture had the wrong container.

At Cabin Fever several years ago there was a guy selling Farty Arty's Nut Buster. Maybe I should have bought a can, but didn't. No idea what was in it, but maybe he was just ahead of the curve. Or maybe I can now bust my nuts without Arty's help.

wierdscience
02-04-2008, 11:33 PM
I seem to recall some write-in discussion of the discrepancy between the picture and the text and the author confirmed that it was ATF he used, but the quick picture had the wrong container.

.

He might simply have been drinking the PS fluid.

lazlo
02-04-2008, 11:36 PM
Thanks Jan -- ATF + acetone makes more sense to me. Penetrating oil is just thin oil with a solvent to carry it into the threads.

ATF is high detergent oil, and acetone is a powerful solvent, so that formula (which has floated around the 'Net for years) makes a lot of sense.

JRouche
02-05-2008, 02:50 AM
Dunno.. But I have a gallon of Kroil here and it will last me my lifetime. That seems pretty inexpensive.. Oh, and it does work.. JRouche

darryl
02-05-2008, 03:16 AM
And to think all those years I used a cheater pipe on the wrench handle. Well, it was a free scrap- maybe not quite free, it cost me gas to go get the sockets replaced :)

A long time ago we used Whiz as a penetrating oil. (it was a real product, not used beer). It worked really well. It worked well on wasps nests as well. The can would squirt 20 ft.

63Avanti
02-05-2008, 06:46 AM
and the answer to the original question is... :p



The material below has been making the rounds of the internet for months. Could someone look up the Machinist Workshop issue and confirm/debunk as appropriate. Also, could someone fill in the gaps on what the test was attempting to demonstrate? Does it apply to seized engine bolts and rusted frame nuts?

"The April/May 2007 edition of Machinist's Workshop did a test of penetrating oils where they measured the force required to loosen rusty test devices. Buy the issue if you want to see how they did the test. The results reported were interesting. The lower the number of pounds the better. Mighty interesting results for simple acetone and tranny fluid!

Penetrating oil . Average load .. Price per fluid ounce
None ................. 516 pounds .
WD-40 .............. 238 pounds .. $0.25
PB Blaster ......... 214 pounds .. $0.35
Liquid Wrench ... 127 pounds .. $0.21
Kano Kroil ........ 106 pounds .. $0.75
ATF-Acetone mix.. 53 pounds .. $0.10

The ATF-Acetone mix was a 50/50 mix (1 to 1 ratio)."


thanks! :D

IOWOLF
02-05-2008, 07:15 AM
The answer is Mix some up and try it on your specific application .

Your Old Dog
02-05-2008, 07:20 AM
Gee this topic comes just when I can use it. I bought an old 16 foot aluminum telescoping surveyers pole to modify for use as a vertical antenna on the camper.

On one of the telescoping sections the brass nut is frozen solid to the mating collar. I have used heat, cold, WD-40 and built a collar to grab the sleeve with so as not to damage it. This thread gives me more thing to try before I have to abandon this part and fabricate something else to get the job done. I have ATV fluid and acetone so I'll be on it first thing this morning.

IOWOLF
02-05-2008, 07:31 AM
"Gee this topic comes just when I can use it. I bought an old 16 foot aluminum telescoping surveyers pole to modify for use as a vertical antenna on the camper.

On one of the telescoping sections the brass nut is frozen solid to the mating collar. I have used heat, cold, WD-40 and built a collar to grab the sleeve with so as not to damage it. This thread gives me more thing to try before I have to abandon this part and fabricate something else to get the job done. I have ATV fluid and acetone so I'll be on it first thing this morning."





You may try ATF first. :)

pcarpenter
02-05-2008, 12:25 PM
I tried the ATF/acetone thing after reading the article. Its OK, and its cheap, but I have yet to have the good results I have consistently with Kroil. I have ordered it straight from the company and have gone through most of a pint and one of the spray cans which I have owned for years. I will order a gallon next time. The key to making it last is to not be sloppy....the only part that does any good is the part dribbled on the actual rusted junction. I watch most folks spray stuff on like it was going to be absorbed through the sides of the nut and all the surrounding metal or something:D

Years ago, I had an old flathead engine that had been outside with water standing in all cylinders for years. Several weeks of soaking with Kroil in each cylinder popped it all loose. I have used some of the other penetrants over the years and had the best luck with kroil. WD-40 is not penetrating oil. If it works, it probably wasn't too stuck in the first place.

I think the fellow who set up the test has responded here before saying that he struggled to find a valid test scenario. I think he did the best he could, but I am not sure it relates to the typical rusty bolt-nut scenario which requires torque and penetration down a spiral to break the rust bond.

Paul

Jim Caudill
02-05-2008, 02:14 PM
Paul, I usually get one of their (Kroil - www.Kanolabs.com) sample packs. You may have to ask them what kind of kits they are putting together (if they still are). I have bought several in the past and they always included a gallon of Kroil, plus some aerokroil, and some other product. I bought a case of aerokroil one year and gave a can to all my male Christmas gift receipients. Everyone raved about how good it worked. My opinion is that IF penetrating oil will help in a particular situation, Kroil will get it done; but, Kroil is not a magic wand.

lbender
02-05-2008, 02:42 PM
63Avanti,

Allow me to appologize one more time. The test material was intended to be automatic transmission fluid. In the auto parts department, I grabbed a bottle of power steering fluid by mistake. If you read the article, the power steering fluid shown was used. The table you quoted has not been corrected.

One salient point not covered in your question -- these are loads required to free the test piece after 8 hours of immersion in penetrating oil. This is probably not representative of a quick squirt just before a wrench is applied.

IOWOLF
02-05-2008, 02:47 PM
You guys just don't listen to the Wolf, Do Ya.

Thanx for stepping up to the plate Lbender.

John Stevenson
02-05-2008, 03:08 PM
I always thought ATF and power steering fluid is the same thing.?

Well it is in my vehicles anyway as ATF gets put into the power steering and the auto tool changer on the CNC.

Best tapping fluid I have ever come across is 75% trike and 25% ATF. the ATF stops it evaporating away as quick.

It's that good that stand a tap up in the hole, spray it with the knacker laquer and the tap winds itself into the hole on it's own :D

.

Tim S
02-05-2008, 03:15 PM
Sir John if you don't mind what is trike?

Tim

John Stevenson
02-05-2008, 03:34 PM
Trichloroethane, supposedly it's been banned as being carcinogenic but only after 5 pints :D

Over here it got banned and a substitute was brought out to replace it and then that got banned.

Then they found out that the cleaner developed to clean jet engines before crack testing wasn't working so Rolls Royce got an exemption for the original trike to be used to clean parts before crack testing.

So if you know anyone who works at Roll's crack testing department you are well away.

.

kendall
02-05-2008, 04:00 PM
I always thought ATF and power steering fluid is the same thing.?

Well it is in my vehicles anyway as ATF gets put into the power steering and the auto tool changer on the CNC.

Best tapping fluid I have ever come across is 75% trike and 25% ATF. the ATF stops it evaporating away as quick.

It's that good that stand a tap up in the hole, spray it with the knacker laquer and the tap winds itself into the hole on it's own :D

.

Pretty much certain it is, MSDS reads almost identically for both.
Feel and smell are all the same.
Enough alike that the only difference may be the dye alone.
Ken.

Alguy
02-05-2008, 04:04 PM
On smal block chevy's they have pipe plugs that are impossible to get out i have found if you heat them with a propane torch then touch it with some candle wax it wicks in the threads and then the plug can be removed , the thermal change in the cast iron block along with the wax as lubricant works great for me.

Your Old Dog
02-05-2008, 04:39 PM
So if you know anyone who works at Roll's crack testing department you are well away.

.

That's what I aspired to be as a Ute(read youth), a crack tester.

I got the part that is frozen soaking in the atf fluid/acetone mix. I sure hope it works. I wonder what would happen if I put the small container holding the solution and part in a ultra-sound cleaner solution and let it float around? I wonder if the ATF stuff and acetone would get along or would they raise hell chemically?

63Avanti
02-05-2008, 07:42 PM
lbender,
no intent to do anything other than verify your excellent work. Now that I can state that I "communicated with the author", I can pass the word along to the Studebaker gang!:D


63Avanti,

Allow me to appologize one more time. The test material was intended to be automatic transmission fluid. In the auto parts department, I grabbed a bottle of power steering fluid by mistake. If you read the article, the power steering fluid shown was used. The table you quoted has not been corrected.

One salient point not covered in your question -- these are loads required to free the test piece after 8 hours of immersion in penetrating oil. This is probably not representative of a quick squirt just before a wrench is applied.

Fasttrack
02-05-2008, 07:57 PM
On smal block chevy's they have pipe plugs that are impossible to get out i have found if you heat them with a propane torch then touch it with some candle wax it wicks in the threads and then the plug can be removed , the thermal change in the cast iron block along with the wax as lubricant works great for me.



Hey thats a slick idea ... bad pun intended ... :D



By the way, is it just me, or does Liquid Wrench smell like sh!t? I kinda like the smell of PBlaster

Are you kidding me!? :eek: I like the way liquid wrench smells - maybe because it reminds of being little and hangin' out with the grown-ups while they tried to get some rusty shock-absorbers off a dodge caravan :)

Fasttrack
02-05-2008, 07:59 PM
Oh and 63Avanti -

Yep that did infact appear in a MW issue and, as the author said, that table is correct. He did a great job of it too; had a control and each piece was electrolytically rusted so it should be a pretty uniform job. As i recall, they were all torqued to a specific torque beforehand as well so there shouldn't be any question as to the validity of the results.

menace
02-05-2008, 08:30 PM
I buy Kano-Kroil in gallon cans only! I tried the aroesol spray cans and found that the stuff penetrated past the spray nozzel leaking the contents while not in use! While it works great as a penetrant, it doesn't lube like WD40 or PB!

I'll try the ATF+Acetone on the small screws that hold the cutting head on my boring bar. Something that WD, PB, or Kroil have yet to loosen!

Hal
02-05-2008, 08:36 PM
John S

That Trichloroethane is supposed to be great cutting fluid for tough stuff?

Have you used it for that?

Hal

Bob Farr
02-05-2008, 09:07 PM
I use Kroil for small stuff like nuts, but I really like the ATF/acetone mixture for serious work, like this:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g272/frankenglide/Motor3.jpg

I filled the jugs and let them soak for a day. Then I applied a little gentle persuasion:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g272/frankenglide/Motor7pistonpress.jpg

The ATF/acetone mixture penetrated the stuck rings, and even did a good job of cleaning off the piston heads and jug walls:

http://i58.photobucket.com/albums/g272/frankenglide/Motor8.jpg

lazlo
02-05-2008, 10:19 PM
That Trichloroethane is supposed to be great cutting fluid for tough stuff?

An old-timer's recipe for cutting oil was olive oil and carbon tetrachloride (which was banned worldwide in 1970), supposedly works unbelievably well.

Trichloroethane supposedly works almost as well, but that was banned worldwide in 1996 by the Montreal Convention.

HSS
02-05-2008, 10:51 PM
Hi all,
I'm a new guy to machining but not to Kroil. Been using it for years and have found something that works better. It is KB88 made by LPS. My wife brought some home and told me I should try it. I was impressed. BTW it is the color of ATF
HSS

lazlo
02-05-2008, 11:19 PM
I'm a new guy to machining but not to Kroil. Been using it for years and have found something that works better. It is KB88 made by LPS.

Funny that you mention that HSS -- I just remembered that I bought a can of that LPS KB88 stuff the last time I was at Grainger! Need to try it! :)

pcarpenter
02-05-2008, 11:20 PM
Fasttrack-- Unless my memory fails me, the test fixturing was a bunch of pins pressed in holes of fixed sizes. I would not have wanted to be in charge of trying to develop test fixtures for this and don't know that I could do any better, but pins in bores being pressed out is not quite the same as a bolt threaded into a hole. The latter involves much more surface area. Think about the linear distance if you unwrapped all of the threads from say 1.5" of a 12, 16, or 20 TPI bolt. That's a long way to try to get a penetrant to flow.

I think the corrosion conditions were much shorter duration than say a bolt that spent 5 years under your car in salt water etc. If I recall correctly, dwell time for the test fixtures in the corrosive mixture was rather short, even though it went through several cycles. I tend to think that corrosive adhesion comes from metal transfer from one surface to a mating surface through galvanic action....the longer it occurs the deeper it goes. Again, like I said, I am sure compromises had to be made in setting up the tests. Likely a guy can't spend 10 years rusting something so he can test penetrating oils :D

My only test after mixing up a batch was in removing front brake caliper mounting bolts on my pickup--which I realize was hardly scientific. Both were stuck on both sides and those that got Kroil came loose enough more quickly that I ended up wiping the home brew off and using Kroil on all of them so I could move on with the project...but that's hardly scientific. I wonder, however, if its important to separate penetrating ability from force applied when the previously frozen part finally gives way. The test in the magazine tended to show the latter.

I think with any of the products that time is your friend. They all need time to penetrate and do their work.

Paul

HSS
02-05-2008, 11:25 PM
I keep a can of KB88 in my shop at home, and I put a can on my truck but my son took my can from my truck and put it on his truck. Now I have to use the Kroil on my truck.

lbender
02-06-2008, 03:20 PM
pcarpenter,

Waiting ten years for the test material to rust is bad enough, the real b***h is keeping every thing at uniform temperature, humidity, ect. for the whole ten years so that every sample is exactly the same. These's definitely a reason for engineering accelerated corrosion tests.

lazlo
02-06-2008, 05:59 PM
An old-timer's recipe for cutting oil was olive oil and carbon tetrachloride (which was banned worldwide in 1970), supposedly works unbelievably well.

Trichloroethane supposedly works almost as well, but that was banned worldwide in 1996 by the Montreal Convention.

I was Googling around for Trichlorethane, and surprisingly, you can buy it in small quantities at chemical supply houses. But check the price: $155 for 100ml (!)

http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/111-Trichloroethane-100ml-p52.html
Current Product Status:

This is now an EPA-regulated chemical due to its ozone-depleting properties. U.S. production was stopped in 1996 and, though not prohibited, it is taxed heavily and is now available only in small quantities.

http://www.chemical-supermarket.com/files/images/product_thumbnail/t_52_03.gif

rantbot
02-06-2008, 06:44 PM
So what's the final result? Was the stuff in the test (not the photo) ATF or PS fluid?

pcarpenter
02-06-2008, 07:17 PM
See post #18 in this thread (by the author of the article).

Paul