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JCHannum
02-10-2008, 10:08 AM
Jerry Tiers comment on the eBay lathe presented the question as whether it was worth the time taken to build.

There are occasionally posts here, and frequently posts on the PM forum disparaging the HSM for making something that can be purchased, or is crudely made from bits and pieces of hardware and plumbing. I have this photo in my collection to remind me of the value of some of these endeavors.

http://members.aol.com/jchannum/engine

Would anybody care to guess as to the identity of this very crude but interesting engine?

Spin Doctor
02-10-2008, 10:31 AM
Ford's Quadricycle?

IOWOLF
02-10-2008, 10:36 AM
I didn't think it was steam powered.



http://www.hfmgv.org/exhibits/showroom/1896/specs.html

wierdscience
02-10-2008, 11:04 AM
I didn't think it was steam powered.



http://www.hfmgv.org/exhibits/showroom/1896/specs.html

It's not,notice the two wires coming down from the heads to a set of crude breaker points.

Your Old Dog
02-10-2008, 11:14 AM
To me it's all about enjoyment or happiness, the most primal force in mankind. Whatever makes you happy that causes no one else grief. A good reason to make anything is because you'd like to do it. No other explanation needed.

wierdscience
02-10-2008, 11:21 AM
I have respect for someone who builds something out of a need with the materials they have on hand.To me it shows creativity and problem solving.It really doesn't bother me that a device might be very crude,especially if it gets the job done.Ford did what it took to build his prototype,in his spare time,while he was working a job,with the material he could find IIRC,can't fault him for that one bit.

I think we have all seen things built with excellent fit and finish by teams of people with unlimited finance that ended up not working or at least not working very well.I once saw a beautiful piece of machine work a person built that was nothing but a waste of time,it turned out to be a perpetual motion machine.Gorgeous work,but a flawed idea.

When I build something for myself I build it just as good as it needs be to function as advertised since it's going to be used and not looked at,when I build for a customer I build it to the maximum limit the constraints will allow since quality work is quality advertising.I've also cobbled stuff together for people out of junk they had since it was all they had to use,in that situation all that matters is that it works.

planeman
02-10-2008, 12:03 PM
"Would anybody care to guess as to the identity of this very crude but interesting engine?[/QUOTE]

I would say this a copy/model of Henry Ford's very first automobile engine and working gear.

Am I correct?

Planeman

Frank Ford
02-10-2008, 12:46 PM
"Is it worth the work?"

I agree - that's often an inappropriate question to ask. People choose to spend their time in different ways. I do lots of things in my shop that aren't "worth it" by many standards, but it's what I enjoy doing.

You won't catch me wasting my time watching any sports event, whether on the tube or in person. It's not worth it. . .

BobWarfield
02-10-2008, 01:00 PM
To me it's all about enjoyment or happiness, the most primal force in mankind. Whatever makes you happy that causes no one else grief. A good reason to make anything is because you'd like to do it. No other explanation needed.

And never a truer word was spoken. Yet why do we spend so much time, particularly on this board, questioning what makes others happy?

Go figure.

Nice quadricycle photo.

Best,

BW

Guido
02-10-2008, 01:02 PM
Unca' Hanks' Quadracycle, ---------duplicate, damn good duplicate.

G

HTRN
02-10-2008, 01:12 PM
There are occasionally posts here, and frequently posts on the PM forum disparaging the HSM for making something that can be purchased.

The reason is money - I got drilled into my head, if you can buy something you need instead of making it, 99% of the time it makes more economic sense. One of my Engineering professsors once told us a story about going into a shop as a consultant, to which the owner proudly displayed a magnificent toggle clamp he made. My professor commented "That sure is nice, what did it cost you to make?" The owner replied "Oh, about 90 bucks".. My professor told him "THAT'S WHY YOU'RE NOT MAKING A PROFIT - you're making 90 dollar clamps that can be replaced by a 7 dollar DeStaco!"

Most of can't justify buying alot of the things we see in the catalogs, so we make copies of them, or we complain about the price. Shops don't care as much if something like a Harig grinding fixture costs 4 grand - IF IT WILL MAKE THEM MONEY.


HTRN

J Tiers
02-10-2008, 02:37 PM
The question was somewhat arbitrary........

But the basic machine might not have justified the extras, the "grafted-on" parts, etc.

I'd have wanted to fix the donor machine... looks like a lot better unit.

But the RESULT is a cool item.

Basically, NOTHING YOU DO IS WORTH ANYTHING 10 years after you are dead. get used to it.

So "worth it" is your choice....

JCHannum
02-10-2008, 04:00 PM
Spin Doctor got it right on the first try. It is a reproduction of the quadracycle that is in the Henry Ford Museum. The picture I was looking for is one of Ford's first engine. It was built of pipe fittings and he built it in the kitchen of his home. Maybe someone will Google or Tiffiepedia it for us.

I started a separate post because it is not about that lathe, but about the concept of what an individual can accomplish on his own, with little more than his hands and his mind and the simplest of tools and materials.

I do believe Ford's legacy has lived for a little more than ten years after his death, and will probably continue for another few years.

kendall
02-10-2008, 04:06 PM
Most of my personal projects and tools are done using scrap from paying jobs, or materials scrounged from broken tools/parts that would otherwise be hauled to the dump with fuel and dump fees.

So material costs are pretty much non-existant, and in many cases 'make' money.

Then considering that they are made using time that I would otherwise spend sitting around wishing I had something to do....

So, in my case I have to say it's worthwhile all around.

Very much worthwhile!

Ken

Rustybolt
02-10-2008, 04:16 PM
The only time it's not worth the effort is when you're not learning something.

lane
02-10-2008, 07:04 PM
The only time it's not worth the effort is when you're not learning something.

RIGHT OWN . Its all about learning something.And the having something useful in the process.

Alistair Hosie
02-10-2008, 07:05 PM
To me it's all about enjoyment or happiness, the most primal force in mankind. Whatever makes you happy that causes no one else grief. A good reason to make anything is because you'd like to do it. No other explanation needed.
Well said Y.O.D very correct that's the way I see it too.Alistair

Your Old Dog
02-10-2008, 08:02 PM
I can't fathom these folks who come home from work and do nothing but read the newspaper unless there's a sports game on. Then to make things worse, they let the team control their identity. The team wins, they feel good. The team loses, well..........


[quote=BobWarfield]. ...........Yet why do we spend so much time, particularly on this board, questioning what makes others happy?...........

I asked that very question here once before and got what I take as a great answer. Someone said it's because we are a group of folks in an endeavor that benefits from critical thinking. Looking for minutia just becomes a natural part of who a machinist, or one who aspires to be, is.

J Tiers
02-10-2008, 09:39 PM
I do believe Ford's legacy has lived for a little more than ten years after his death, and will probably continue for another few years.

Millions of people, ONE Henry Ford...... ONE Hitler, ONE Churchill, ONE Stalin, ONE Confucius, etc.... Most people, including most of us, will be remembered only in family trees, if at all.

Our "stuff" will be mostly an encumbrance on our heirs, if not an actual legal problem, depending on pollution laws, etc at the time.

That is just the way it is.

Who were your great-great grandfathers? What did they do for a living? I know the name of one paternal GGF, but nothing much about him aside from the fact he fought in the US Civil war. The others, only the names. My wife has Robert Fulton for an ancestor, but the others are unknowns.

There are not many Henry Fords. And that may be a very good thing.

Henry Ford may have been singlehandedly responsible for a huge portion of the current global warming problem. He popularized the IC automobile so that the stinking, belching device became everyone's "right".

Damages chargeable to Henry Ford:

1) tailpipe emissions over the last 90-100 years

2) huge factory emissions to make all those cars to emit tailpipe emissions over the last 90-100 years

3) the 'culture of more" which grew out of automobiles, and demands so much 'stuff" which is made by strip mining and pollution-belching factories, costs lots of gas (and emissions) to go and get, and gets landfilled eventually.

4) Probably the destruction of the passenger railroad (shared with Wilbur and Orville....)

I don't necessarily agree with all the above...... But it is what an open-minded look might well discover.

Not the sort of legacy I would like to be known for.

It is nice to be remembered. But it is often far cheaper to be forgotten.....

I still wonder where the other machines that donated the parts came from, and why they didn't work...... But I agree that the lathe as it sits is very nice. I don't necessarily even think it was "not worth it". I actually only said I didn't want to get into that...........

IOWOLF
02-10-2008, 09:48 PM
YOU MUST BE KIDDING !

So do you ride a bike for transportation?

J Tiers
02-10-2008, 09:50 PM
YOU MUST BE KIDDING !

So do you ride a bike for transportation?

Nope..... read on......... I also wrote:


I don't necessarily agree with all the above...... But it is what an open-minded look might well discover.

A.K. Boomer
02-10-2008, 10:03 PM
Hey hey hey now, little rough on ole henry aint we, if it wasnt him there were dozens just waiting to follow, henry only accelerated the entire mess by a half decade er so, besides --- its not like he knew other people were actually going to build some boat anchor called a "slobburbon"

its not the mass production, its the mindset of the people who take for granted, I.E. enter the average american who's wake-up call for all kinds of things should of at the very latest been in the early 70's,

u know -- asking the heavy hitter questions --- like -- do i really need to bring my house back and forth to work? Or -- where does oil come from? and then maybe if they got that far some kind of major lightbulb would go off in thier head and they may even ask the greatest question of all -- like ----- Should I reproduce if im a hillbilly...... there, hows that for perspective JT:D

pntrbl
02-10-2008, 10:09 PM
Can you imagine what condition any major metropolitan area would be in if Henry hadn't come along and we all still used horses? The ****'d be 3 ft deep .....

SP

Alguy
02-10-2008, 10:15 PM
I do this because i enjoy it. , my most recent project was 2 axa tool holder i did not save much money over a cdco tool holder , but i wanted to do it .

As far as parts for the quadracycle , Henery was plant engineer at an Edison generating plant at the time he made it, so we can assume he rummaged the scrap heap and elsewhere. Edison was aware of Fords project was very supportive.
If you are in the Detriot area try to visit the museum , lots and lots to see i spent 2 days my first time . also there is lots for the ladies too.

John Stevenson
02-11-2008, 05:08 AM
I feel it's got to be based on a sliding scale of time, money and availability in some order.

It's no good the shops being full with all the latest goodies if you have no money or methods to pay for them.

By the same reason it's no good having a pocketful of cash if what you want isn't available.

In the early days I built a rotary table, a dividing head, a Dore Westbury milling machine and my toolposts. This was when i wasn't that well off just being married and with a small family the wages had to be channeled in other directions.

Add to this, no cheap imports, no real small hobby product unless really special [ read expensive ] and no CNC so things like rotabs and dividing heads were much sought after.

I wasn't on my own, lets face it that's how Model Engineer stayed so popular for over a 100 years.

Problem is, we now look at things in hindsight with product in the shops, more disposable assets, credit freely available etc.

We see things like the CDCO ? toolholder at $12 to $15 each and wonder if it's worth it and the answer today is no, yesterday it was maybe and a week ago it was what toolholders ?

Things move on and change, people used to give me blunt endmills for free and I used to wonder why they didn't do as I did and lick them up to get another life out of them. Now I give them away as they are too costly to mess with.

I an going to buy a new DRO today because the wires have pulled out the reader head and done some other damage to the long axis reader on the Bridgy. At one time I would have spent hours working out a repair if possible, today I can't waste the time. What I will do though is take the whole head and scales off and sell it to someone who has the time and inclination.
Many people helped me when I started it's a poor tale if i can't reciprocate but one thing we can't do is judge a person by our standards because even our standards move.


.

Your Old Dog
02-11-2008, 07:18 AM
Damages chargeable to Henry Ford:

1) tailpipe emissions over the last 90-100 years


Watched a program on the Science Channel, the bastion of truth evidently as everyone seems to believe what the see there, that says hamburgers are more to blame for global warming then automobiles. A scientist considered and studied and measured everything from the methane gas the cow produces to what it takes to get the final product to our tables. Makes me wonder, how could we feed the country or the world without oil unless we wanted to scrounge for roots like they do in Africa? We gonna go back to the dark ages and live like hunter/gathers?

J Tiers
02-11-2008, 09:04 AM
Discount all the methane..... that is an offset from the huge herds of bison that used to run around all over the plains crapping........

Not to mention that apparently, in Africa, termites produce much more methane.

For that matter, think of all the big trucks on the road.... They are going 24/7 to make money (driving limits? that's what bennies and multiple logs are for). They get 4 mpg diesel.

most commuters drive 30 to 60 min per day, and may get about 18 mpg on overall average.

So what's worse?

Then again, aircraft deposit CO2 and water vapor (a potent GG) up where it (according to latest research) does not mix down into the lower atmoshpere.

So things are not always what they seem.

As far as worth it, I have built many things I could buy, but then I

1) like doing it

2) am not a business

3) usually make a change to the "thing" to better fit my wants/needs

Not to mention that JCHANNUM made an assumption when he "assumed" that me "not commenting" (pointedly) on the "worth" of the mods to that machine meant that I thought it was dumb.

Actually, while I think in some ways I would rather have the "donor" machine that supplied some of the parts, the actual result is a machine that could not be bought for 30 times the actual money spent.

The only real shame is that it does not have calibrated dials. And it probably cannot, since the AA series, and presumably that "Companion" also, use 24 tpi feed screws, with 41.666 thou per revolution advance.......and the castings include the nuts. Stupid that they didn't use 20 tpi, which is actually more common.

of course we don't know that they weren't changed, but since there are not dials at least on the compound, presumably not.

JCHannum
02-11-2008, 09:43 AM
Not to mention that JCHANNUM made an assumption when he "assumed" that me "not commenting" (pointedly) on the "worth" of the mods to that machine meant that I thought it was dumb.

Sorry Jerry, as I pointed out, I started a separate thread expressly to remove it from the context of the lathe rather than hijack that thread. I have made no reference to your opinions on the lathe other than state that thread raised the question.

gzig5
02-11-2008, 04:47 PM
"Global Warming" is a figment of Al Gore's imagination.