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View Full Version : Surface Grinder HSM sized (6x12)



Bill Pace
02-16-2008, 05:14 PM
My buddy had been making noises about maybe selling his small surface grinder and getting one of the tool and cutter grinders that is capable of also doing some light surface grinding,-- since he wanted more of the one and less of the other.... So, when the recent threads by Your Old Dog and Spin Doctor about surface grinders came up, I followed it with interest. As typical of us "tool-aholics". I 'kinda' wanted one (didnt NEED one... and besides, down here in the wastelands there were never any available anyhow)... but, with the possibility of one becoming available .... I wanted all the info I could get, and as usual there was some good stuff in the threads.

Well, my buddy found a T&C grinder (Covel) and definitely put the surface grinder on the market, and at a very attractive price, and I got it a week or so ago. The grinder was attractive for more than the price.... at one time in its past, it had belonged to Lane, and he had gone through it quite extensively, and with the present owner having used it very little, I felt a LOT more comfortable buying it than something off ebay. Its an "Eagle" brand, made in England, is manual with a right drive table...

"manual with a right drive table" ----- HAH!, these were discussed quite a bit in the threads, and boy, did I get checked out on that part of a surface grinder!! ........I had to have a magnetic chuck for it, and pretty quickly found a rather nice fine pole 6x12 (unknown brand) for $116 on ebay. It had been in a coolant system and was DIRTY!, --- cleaned up nicely, but decided it could stand a "skimming" to finish the clean up, and, I could check out my new grinder......About 6-8 hours later, 3 heart attacks, pulling hair, a nervous breakdown, and a multitude of %&^#** , ---it finally turned out pretty nicely. Magnet chucks do not grind worth a hoot! In the first couple hours, I thought it was ruined with the dig-ins and burn marks,-- what with my inexperience with the operation, and the characteristics of this tool. After about 6-8 passes (at 15-30mins each), I had slowed down to taking 20-40 thou feeds and only advancing after the up and down sweep and the burning & diggin-in stopped and the surface began to clean up...WHEW!! I was dressing the (new) wheel after about every 3-4th pass. Have still got a couple marks that didnt come out, but I can live with them ... Id had enough of going back and forth over that thing!

Was telling Lane about it and he seemed to think that my description sounded about normal for this .... in other words... a pain in the butt!!

So I can speak with some authority that the manual table isnt all that bad --- that next time I need a little 1x6" piece of steel cleaned up I think it will go rather quickly!! As for the right hand table wheel...well, I cant say yea or nay about it...
http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/pace1980/IMG_0752.jpg

http://i22.photobucket.com/albums/b301/pace1980/IMG_0750.jpg

Spin Doctor
02-16-2008, 05:26 PM
The construction of this one is a little different than what one would think of as standard with surface grinders. It appears the grinder may be a surface grinder version of a horzontal or vertical mill because it has a knee. What type of way construction does it have on the longitudinal (x) axis?

boslab
02-16-2008, 05:30 PM
sorry, as far as i'm aware the eagle is chinese, however they seem to work ok if a bit slow, i've been in the market for one for a while as i dont need a lot of stuff ground so on of those would be ideal
mark

Your Old Dog
02-16-2008, 05:32 PM
Nice looking setup. Thanks for sharing the surface grinder rookie info with us. I've had my eye out for something smaller and clean looking but no luck so far. Still have to wrestle with the 3 phase change-over. Is your setup 3 phase?

Alistair Hosie
02-16-2008, 05:33 PM
It looks nice but that's quite popular over here .If you can overcome all the hand winding then you have a beauty nice and clean,your friend did not abuse it by the look of it have fun kindest regards Alistair

Peter N
02-16-2008, 05:47 PM
sorry, as far as i'm aware the eagle is chinese, however they seem to work ok if a bit slow, i've been in the market for one for a while as i dont need a lot of stuff ground so on of those would be ideal
mark

The Eagle is most definitely not Chinese!
Originally made by by the Dronsfield brothers, who later sold the rights to Victa. Very good little grinders, very solidly built, although anyone that you might find now will have been old when Gods dog was a puppy.

Bill, that one you have their looks like an Eagle MkII. I have some old brochure re-prints somewhere, and if I can find them I'll scan them for you.

I sold mine a few months ago and bought a J&S 540 which I have yet to install.

Peter

Bill Pace
02-16-2008, 06:20 PM
Spin, --- it has rack & pinion on the X,-- Lane had done some work on the ways and it is quite smooooth. It is a bit "unconventional" in construction ... the motor in in the bottom with a looong belt up to the spindle.

boslab, --- as Peter says, aint NO way this little jewel was made in China!!

Dog, ----It had a 220v non convertible on it, I didnt have 220 where I wanted it to live and had a 110 motor in the cabinet so changed it out. But, Lane had installed the 220,-- I dont know what it came with ... being English? My buddys 'new' Covel came with 3ph and hes having to do a work-around it....

Peter --- Yeah, age??, its pretty obvious from the design and construction, its got some years on it,-- and it IS a beefy little guy (I"ve really taken a shine to it!) An Eagle Mkll??....If you do indeed have those brochures, Id love to have em. It still has the mfgs placard on the side, but doesnt give model type.

TGTool
02-16-2008, 06:42 PM
Nice acquisition and good job finally recovering from the chuck grind. It's a sickening feeling to just hear/see the chuck "growing" up into the wheel from heat expansion with the resulting divot. At one time I'd modified a grinding wheel just for chuck grinding by making notches around the edge on the offhand grinder to leave only about half the periphery and maybe provide more cooling air movement. I'd read about that somewhere though it sounds a little spooky in retrospect. In any case, it did work in spite of the hairy eyeballs from older toolmakers. Even at that I tried to take the barest amount of downfeed and run the x traverse as fast as I could spin the wheel so it didn't dwell and start warming up the chuck. I think patience is really your friend for that task, and fortunately it doesn't have to be done very often.

You can make your own magnetic parallels and V-blocks, by the way.

oldtiffie
02-16-2008, 06:51 PM
A great machine and shop asset.

You won't regret it.

I support all the comment to date.

There is another perhaps "hidden" asset too.

The magnetic chuck, when ground true, makes an excellent surface plate - but leave the magnets "off" though - as I found out through being absent-minded or not having my mind on the job.

JoeFin
02-16-2008, 07:24 PM
Nice Grinder - I'm impressed.

Nothing nicer then to have an accurate finish on some tooling you've spent hours making and that is just the tool to do it.

Sparky_NY
02-16-2008, 09:37 PM
I can relate only too well to your new grinder. I got a Boyar Schultz 6x12 this past summer, also without a chuck. I also got a 6x12 fine pole chuck but couldn't find one on fleabay and someone here told me of a new one for under $200 so I just ordered it.

What I learned..... softer steels require harder grinding wheels, chucks are soft so a hard wheel is desired. I used a K as I recall.

A friend who has a shop told me it is very common when grinding in a chuck to put a light coating of "Crisco" on it. I did, it worked great.

Read up about different wheels. Consider them like milling cutters, different ones for different purposes and jobs.

Spin Doctor
02-17-2008, 11:39 AM
Spin, --- it has rack & pinion on the X,-- Lane had done some work on the ways and it is quite smooooth. It is a bit "unconventional" in construction ... the motor in in the bottom with a looong belt up to the spindle.



Well, the long belt isn't that unusual. What I was really interested in finding out was if the table ways were dovetail or vee and flat. I couple of years ago or so I was doing a thought excercise about converting a 6x26 mill to a gear hob. I wonder if something similiar could be done to go the SG route by using the turret casting as the spindle housing

Peter N
02-17-2008, 11:47 AM
SpinDoctor, the X slideways are dovetails front and back on the Eagle Grinders.

Peter

lane
02-17-2008, 12:09 PM
Nice job Bill. the magnet looks good.Yes the grinder is out of the 30` oar 40`. I rebuilt it a number of years ago. All dove tail ways 35º re machined them and re scraped every thing. Very old English with withworth threads.

Carld
02-17-2008, 12:23 PM
Bill Pace, I have never had a problem grinding in a mag table. I have always turned the mag on and ground no more than .001" off the surface at a pass with steady passes of 2 seconds per pass on the 12" long table. If you go to fast the table will get hot and expand up and burn the surface and not be flat. It helps to keep a spray bottle of coolant, just plain water will work, to keep the table cool. Be sure to clean and lube it after the dressing operation.

I make a pass feeding the table in and lower the wheel and make a pass back across the surface feeding out then dress the wheel. Every two passes in and out I dress the wheel and the reason is as the wheel goes over the table one edge of the wheel cuts coming out and the other edge cuts going back in with the crossfeed. Now both sides of the wheel are used up and I dress it. All this takes time but I end up with a flat and near perfect surface.

There is no way to speed up the dressing of the mag table. If the table is electric you have to spray it to cool it because the magnets will warm up and cause the table surface to rise.

I guess you found all this out as you ground your table.

While this method works for me it may not work for anyone else but patience is the main thing when grinding.

wierdscience
02-17-2008, 12:25 PM
Nice grinder,only thing I see different about it is the table raises and lowers instead of the spindle.I've seen long belts,B&S did that and the lefthand wheel also appeared elsewhere.

I've never had any trouble surfacing a chuck,without coolant your limited to .001" doc or less per pass.The initial mistake comes in finding the high spots on the very first pass.One trick I use is WD-40 and paper.Spray a mist of WD on the chucks surface and stick down a sheet of paper to it.With wheel dressed and true and the grinder OFF, sweep the wheel over the surface sneaking up on contact.Soon as you make contact in one spot(the paper slips or the wheel rolls) pick the wheel up .0005" and ghost over the entire surface.If it doesn't make contact again then your golden.Remove the paper,drop the wheel down .002" make the first pass.That pass may not make the first spark,but that's okay we're not in a hurry here.After that take a series of light .0005-.001" passes using the whole width of the wheel on each pass.Once you see a pattern of highs and lows shut the grinder off and move the chuck to a low spot.Check the depth of the low spot with a feeler gauge,that will tell you how many more passes are required for cleanup.

If the grinder I am using doesn't have coolant I use WD-40 to keep the wheel from loading.Some chucks have brass inlay and some have aluminum even,both will clog the wheel and cause burning and heat build up.

Don't be concerned with pretty either,I don't care if the finish pass still shows dents and dings so long as it's flat.

IMHO patience is the toughest requirement,make a few passes feel the heat on the chuck,if it's hot water temp (109-112f) take a break and do something else.Grinding a hot chuck will only yield a chuck and warps concave once it cools.Hope this helps.

Carld
02-17-2008, 12:38 PM
I like that paper trick and will use it. I always just snuck down easy to find the high spots but the paper trick is good.

I do use hand held paper to sneak down the touch off sometimes on what I am grinding but I don't like getting that close to the wheel so the paper and WD40 sounds good.

lazlo
02-17-2008, 05:43 PM
Nice grinder,only thing I see different about it is the table raises and lowers instead of the spindle.

It looks like they converted a little rack and pinion horizontal mill to a surface grinder. Especially since the grinding head seems to bolt on right about where the horizontal overarm would go. Did Eagle make horizontal mills too?

Darn nice looking little grinder! It looks a lot more substantial than a Sanford.

dalee100
02-17-2008, 09:41 PM
Hi,

Very nice. Reminds me of the first one I ran. Except the paint wasn't so good on it anymore. Had a coarse pole chuck. Taught me a few things about grinding small parts Put a HSS cutter right through a solid bathroom door 30ft away at the other end of the shop.:eek:

Not nearly as nice as the Nicco 18x24 with all automatic feeds I ran after. Those hand cranks ain't much fun to work after a couple of hours.

Still a very nice addition!
dalee

Peter N
02-18-2008, 02:44 AM
It looks like they converted a little rack and pinion horizontal mill to a surface grinder. Especially since the grinding head seems to bolt on right about where the horizontal overarm would go. Did Eagle make horizontal mills too?

Darn nice looking little grinder! It looks a lot more substantial than a Sanford.

Good call Robert
It was actually small vertical knee mills that Dronsfield made, and if you look at the page below from the UK lathes site for the "Marlow" brand of mills, you'll immeidaitely spot the similarities.

http://www.lathes.co.uk/marlowmiller/

Peter

Norman Atkinson
02-18-2008, 03:44 AM
I've just dis- entangled my computer having found that Microsoft doesn't understand the nuances of English!
OK! I have a homemade surface grinder which was a kit from Model Engineering Services of Sheffield, England. It is a baby 'Lumsden' type vertical Blancharding machine. The ways are square rather than vee's and are simply bolted up- not milled or ground.
The base is ratchet driven by hand.
Actually, MES is the firm which makes Quorn and Kennet stuff now and the little machine is no longer listed by them. Bought only to get the magnetic table!

To add something, I have now what appears to be a fabricated Stent T&C grinder. Again, the price was not much more than a new motor and abrasive wheels. Verrrry interesting.

Norm

John Stevenson
02-18-2008, 03:56 AM
Got the exact same grinder here as Bill's but not as nice looking.
Mine must have done a lot of work as the nut that raises and lowers the table had worn out and stripped so they threw the machine out.

It was a local company so it was only a 1/2 mile collect and they were good enough to leave the sticky table on.

Made a new nut and it's back in business mainly doing special tooling like slotter cutters and such.

The reason the motor is in the base is to try to keep vibration away from the spindle for surface finish.
Mine doesn't get a lot of use now as I have a vertical grinder like a Blanchard and they are so much faster for stock removal.

Not as good as a JS 540 which seems to be the accepted standard over here but takes up a lot less space and for the amount a home shop uses one a handraulic isn't that bad.

.

Bill Pace
02-18-2008, 08:40 AM
The reason the motor is in the base is to try to keep vibration away from the spindle for surface finish.

Interesting, Sir John,---and that would be my assumption for the distant mounting,-- however the previous owners one minor complaint was that it had developed a vibration that seemed to be getting to the point of reaching the spindle. His suspicion was that the belt was the problem. Getting it in my shop, and getting panels off to be able to see the belt in motion quickly pointed out how badly it was hopping and dancing as it went round, it was very stiff and fairly worn. Replaced it with a quality cogged belt and the difference in smoothness was just short of amazing...

As usual, all the comments about the "interesting" experience of dressing the chuck is much appreciated, ---I had managed to arrive at most of the suggestions by trial and error by the end of the exercise, but a couple gems came out...I like the sound of the paper/WD trick---

That Marlow line does looks like the same family tree....

JoeFin
02-18-2008, 10:41 AM
Unfortunately my Surface Grinder is Chinese made. But for the price ($500) I wasn’t going to argue too much.

One thing about Surface Grinding larger objects is that you can while away a good portion of your life watching the wheel take passes of .0002” trying to get an accurate finish. The hydraulic table feed, and auto-cross feed allow me to tinker on other things while the grinder is making a pass.

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/Kent.jpg

The base plate for this Optical Comparator was done on the surface grinder

http://i198.photobucket.com/albums/aa83/Freakindj/opticalcomparitor.jpg

You’ll have to excuse my mess. I have more projects then brains right now

pcarpenter
02-18-2008, 11:57 AM
I am sorry I don't know who posted this brief treatise on grinding a magnetic chuck on the PM site some time back, so I cannot properly credit where it's due--only that they guy's name was Jim. However, I saved the text off for reference. You can ignore the part about leaving the magnet on for a non-electric chuck. The important parts are about sparking out all over before beginning the work so that the really high spots are not a surprise. My guess is that those were what were causing your dig-ins. You will also notice that he is taking very shallow cuts...this keeps the works cool...something that contributes to accuracy.

"the first order of business is to get 5 pieces of steel about 1/2" X 1" X 1" or so place them one at each corner and one in the middle.
chart them so you know which is which. grind both sides its best before you get ready to flip them to take a magic marker and mark around the perimeter of the test pieces so you can put them back at the same place.
after grinding both sides check and note the variation of the test pieces.
this will give you a idea of the condition of your chuck. the tallest piece will be the lowest part of the chuck, use Dykem and a paper towel and cover the chuck so you can identify where you pick up the high point. at the high point with the freshly dressed wheel and spindle off rotate the wheel with a piece of paper under it the paper will be .003" if notebook paper, just put some drag on the paper you dont want to cut it.
back off a few thou start the spindle and check to make sure your not touching anywhere on the chuck. use coolant if you have it if not grab a can of water and a rag. keep the chuck covered with water. make sure you clean up thoroughly afterwards. as William Ward stated energize the chuck and leave it on during the grinding process it woudlnt hurt to let the machine cycle thru with the magnet on for 10 minutes or so to come up to a operating tempture if not automatic then pass on this as you will get tired . move the spindle down .001" and completely cover the chuck side to side and front to rear make sure you do this completely for each pass.
repeat at .001" increments until you pick up the high spot. at that time now move down .0002" {2 tenths) each increment and spark out the chuck completely. when you remove all the dykem replace the 5 pieces and spark them out. you will only need to spark out one side at this time and approach the carefully, you can mic them and raise the spindle that much plus .005". check the test pieces again with a tenth or better indicator at this point you chuck will be flat and precision work will follow...jim "

pcarpenter
02-18-2008, 12:07 PM
Here is another bit of apparent wisdom I saved along the way. I say this because I am no expert, but the advice both made sense and was tested by this fellow and others. After this posting on the Chaski forum, several responded that they either already used this method, or tried it and liked it. The key is deeper (a few thousandths is pretty deep for a surface grinder) depth of cuts while maintaing relatively small in-feeds. Grinding takes place on the corner of the wheel. This allows you to cover more ground before the wheel needs dressed as you have the whole width of the wheel face to step through before you have changed the diameter of the segment of the wheel doing the work. In effect, getting part way across the face of the work and having to stop and dress the wheel is counter to ideal accuracy and this helps make your wheel maintain a given diameter longer.

Paul

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
*Posted By: Anonymous on Chaski forum
In Response To: surface Grinder depth of cut (Len Tate)
If you intend to grind steel, your wheel of choice will be of an aluminum oxide variety. Use silicon carbide for grinding non-ferrous and cast iron. Not the green variety, but the shiny black wheel, typically. THe nomenclature on the wheel should begin with a C for silicon carbide, and, naturally, an A for aluminum oxide.
Grinding soft steel mandates a harder wheel, hard steel a softer wheel.
I see lots of recommendations for using a 46 grit wheel, but my choice rarely included wheels that coarse. I like nice finishes, and 46 grit wheels don't give them to you. On the other hand, fine wheels have difficulty taking larger cuts. A nice compromise is a 60 grit wheel.
I have seen no mention as to actually how to grind a surface here. I believe there is a broadly held misconception that grinding involves lowering the wheel on a part as it goes back and forth. While that is the way most tool & die people sharpen punches and do other tool grinding operations, that is not exactly how grinders should be operated when you are trying to grind a flat surface, particularly when dressing your magnetic chuck.
When grinding, you will be well served to look at your grinding wheel as if it was a milling cutter, for it actually is. Big difference is this milling cutter has lots of teeth. With that in mind, now think of your milling cutter as doing all its work on a corner. If you plunge grind on everything, you have no idea if and when your wheel breaks down. The idea that the wheel will keep breaking down uniformly makes a nice story, but it doesn't work like that.
Depth of cut has been overly discussed here, which tips me to thinking that none of the respondents use a grinder as it is capable of being used. This all ties in to the side cutter cutting on a corner as stated above.
When grinding a surface, you can take two approaches. You can use a light downfeed and advance your cross slide rapidly with each pass. That's hard on the corner of the wheel, for it creates a large area of the wheel making the cut. Too much of the wheel that you rely on to do the sparking and maintain your uniform thicknes is damaged by the broad cut. The alternative is to take a relatively deep cut (.005"/.008") using rapid table movement, and advancing your cross slide around .010" or so with each reversal of the table. This may sound crazy to you, but what you now get is a wheel that cuts on one edge only, leaving the balance of the wheel to spark the already ground surface. By grinding in this fashion, you can see your wheel break down on the cutting edge only, and you can grind large surfaces knowing that your wheel has not changed diameter on you.
If you doubt this concept of grinding, I ask you to consider how centerless grinders take their cuts when through feeding. All the work is done on the corner of the wheel, the balance of the wheel, which can be as much as 8", does nothing more than spark out the part, leaving a very nice surface when properly run.
When grinding like this, when it's time to dress your wheel, you will have to remove the amount of the depth of cut from the wheel, for you will have pushed the corner of your wheel towards the center of the wheel as you did your work. That's exactly as it should be. You'll be surprised at the amount of work you can get done that way.
When I read comments of ginding too much (depth of cut) and heat checking surfaces, all that did for me is tell me that the person grinding was using a poor combination of properties. Hardened steels grind far better than soft steel does, you just have to make sure that the wheel is suited to the job. The surface that comes from grinding heat treated steel is superb when all things come together. There will be no heat checking.
Friability in grinding wheels is critical if you intend to have good success. It's important that the wheel break down when the grain gets dull. Too hard and it doesn't happen, too soft and you get no life from your wheel.
Loading is another problem. If you find your wheel gets real dark around the cutting edge and you get heat traces in the grind, you may be loading the wheel. A more open bond may be required so the swarf can enter and leave the wheel as necessary. Loading of a wheel leads to wheel hop and very poor finishes. It's hard to distinguish between wheel loading and a dull wheel. Both present similar problems and can be identified by small bits of the material being ground imbedded in the grinding wheel. These bits raise hell on the finish.
I have one more tip, and this one is a strong personal prejudice. Do not grind dry, do not grind with spray mist. Tremendous amounts of heat are generated in grinding. If you expect balanced performance, you have to get rid of the heat, and you have to lubricate the cut, allowing the swarf to go where it must go, that includes entering and leaving the wheel. If you don't keep the cut cool, you introduce a lot of trouble. You'll have a very difficult time controlling size if you don't control expansion, not only of the part being ground, but the wheel, too. Keep everything cool is a good policy.
I realize that some tooling grinding is done dry, and I've done more than my share of that type grinding, too, but only when running coolant is out of the question.
I strongly suggest you find and buy a copy of the manual that Norton has published for years, A Handbook On Tool Room Grinding, which will help you in selecting the proper wheels for your application. In this manual it explains how to make the proper choice for hardness and abrasive type, along with wheel density. You see these little manuals offered on ebay and they tend to go cheap.

oldtiffie
02-18-2008, 07:53 PM
Excuse me.

I've read this thread and had particular interest in "true-ing up" the magnetic chuck and the grinding wheels themselves - including balancing.

I will deal with true-ing the magnetic chuck - the other topics will be dealt with in a later post/posts.

On my surface grinder, the first thing I did in the "true-ing" process was to use a Test Dial Indicator (TDI) on the table surface on which the magnetic chuck was to be mounted. It was very good really, but as it was in its "home" I took a fine "lick" over it with a well-dressed and balanced "medium" aluminium oxide (OA) wheel.

The table was now "trued" to the grinder "ways/guides".

Next, I "up-ended" my magnetic chuck on(to) the table, checked for "wobble" and packed it with shims to reduce/negate the clearance that caused the"wobbles". I then engaged the magnets just sufficiently to hold the chuck against any likely "slip" of the chuck on the table.

I then ran the DTI over the base of the chuck (which is now "Up") to find both the "high spots" and any "out of flat/true" spots. I then ground the base of the chuck until it only left a slight "witness" mark. The base of the chuck was now flat.

I then inverted the chuck so that its base sat on the pre-ground grinder table. I clamped the chuck to the table. I then used the TDI to identify the "high spot/s" and the extent of any material to be ground off.

I then ground the top/magnetic "gripping" face of the chuck until I had only a small "witness" mark left.

I marked the position of the chuck on the table for future reference and re-mounting.

I let the grinder and the chuck "settle" for a couple of days. I then ran the table on its own under the TDI - no distortion or movement was detectable.

I mounted and clamped the chuck and ran the TDI over it - just as good - no distortion or movement was detectable.

So my chuck was as flat as the grinder could get it and was parallel to my machine ways/guides.

I check the set-up with the TDI every time I mount the chuck on the table - I have not had to re-grind the top of the magnetic chuck so far, so it seems that all is going well.

I have a separate magnetic chuck for my Tool & Cutter grinder. I used the same procedure there and got the same results as for the Surface grinder.

As said earlier, I will deal with wheels, selection, balancing, dressing and use in a later post in the next few days. I will also deal with "tramming" a surface grinder as well - yes - "tramming" - just as you do on a vertical mill!! - I hope.


I hope this helps.

oldtiffie
02-19-2008, 01:53 AM
In my previous post I said I would post the stuff on grinding wheels - including dressing and balancing.

Note that the text refers to Aluminium Oxide as "Alundum" whereas "Machinery's handbook" refers to it as Aluminium Oxide. As I understand it, both are correct. It is "fused alumina".

http://ptcl.chem.ox.ac.uk/MSDS/AL/aluminium_oxide.html

Here are the links:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Grinding_Wheels/Grinding_wheels1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Grinding_Wheels/Grinding_wheels1A.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Grinding_Wheels/Grinding_wheels2.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Grinding_Wheels/Grinding_wheels3.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Grinding_Wheels/Grinding_wheels4.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Grinding_Wheels/Grinding_wheels5.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Grinding_Wheels/Grinding_wheels6.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Grinding_Wheels/Grinding_wheels7.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Grinding_Wheels/Grinding_wheels8.jpg

JoeFin
02-19-2008, 06:36 AM
I let the grinder and the chuck "settle" for a couple of days.

Pretty good idea to "Grease" the mounting surface of the chuck and table - then let it settle in for at least 24 hr. Re-check the torque on mounting bolts - then dress the chuck true

oldtiffie
02-19-2008, 06:59 PM
Pretty good idea to "Grease" the mounting surface of the chuck and table - then let it settle in for at least 24 hr. Re-check the torque on mounting bolts - then dress the chuck true


Thanks JF.

The reason I took my magnetic chuck off the grinder/s is that I dismount all my fixtures, vices, chucks, rotabs etc. from my machines and then clean and preserve all faces.

The grinder ways on both of mine are "vee" ways with balls on one side and "flat" ways with rollers on the other - beautifully smooth. I just don't want to put any unnecessary long-term spot loads on them that might cause the balls and rollers to indent the "way" surfaces and cause "dents" etc.

I do the same with my mill and lathe.

I do leave a wheel mounted on the spindle of my grinders although there is a good case for dismounting them as well.

I also "run up" my grinding wheels and let them run for a full minute - with me well out of the way - "just in case" - before I go near the wheel/s.

Also, before a wheel is even considered for any use and while it is "off-machine" I test it for "ring" to see that it is sound and not cracked.

I re-balance and dress my surface grinder wheels before I use them - just in case. There is no wheel-balancing fitted on my T&C grinder.

As an aside, as said in a recent thread, the magnetic chuck top face and the face on the grinder tables (where the chuck goes) make excellent surface plates as they are as flat as the grinder/s can get them.

Also as another aside, and as said in previous posts, a small sheet of laminated "float" glass from the "scrap" bin at a local Glazier's shop is a very serviceable surface plate as well.

JoeFin
02-19-2008, 09:53 PM
WOW - You certainly take very good care of your grinder.

Re mounting the mag-chuck for me was nearly a 2 day job. Forrest Addy was kind enough to give me some detailed instructions for the procedure. I’ll see if they can locate them and post them here for everyone.

I had mounted a Bridgeport 6” vise in my grinder for some very large, top heavy pieces of iron I needed ground extremely flat and parallel. Nice thing about the Bridgeport was it has bolt holes front to back as well as side to side to facilitate this.

I never thought of “running up” the grinding wheel for a while before beginning the work. I’ll remember that one. It was suggested to me to let the wheel run for a few minutes after the work when using coolant as to let it “Ring out dry” again.

I was reading Pcarpenter’s post about depth of cut when grinding and it reminded me of profile grinding. I’ve done it – splitting the .001 divisions on my infeed dial for cutting depths over 1.5”. Nice and slow with lots of coolant, but it still scares the heck out of me.

Spin Doctor
02-20-2008, 10:55 AM
SpinDoctor, the X slideways are dovetails front and back on the Eagle Grinders.Peter

Peter, thnks for the reply. I would of responded sooner but I have been in the body and fender shop for a few days with a suspected coronary. Was an interesting few days and a real wake-up call. I looked at the Marlow page on the Machine Tool Reference site and I couls see the obvious family references. One aspect of this type od construction is the working plane of the wheel is always withinn the same couple of inches. If the wheel size is say 7x1-1/4x1/2 there is no way that realistically way you will dress the wheel down to three inches in diameter and expect it to preform with any reasonable level of acceptability IMO. So your eye to work relationship is always pretty constant. The down side is on manual grinders there is a lot of muscle memory involved. So when you have a grinder that is constructed like yours then the hand that does the most work (the one that runs the table back and forth) likes to be basically in the same spot all the time. With a table that rises and falls then the hands operating the slides are at different levels one job to the next. One thing I wonder about. Is with the dovetail ways just how tight to the gibs have to be set to allow ease of use versus having rock in the slide side to side. That is one reason why surface grinders normally have the open vee and flat arrangement. It provides positve guidance without having to be a set-up that is mechanically bound in any way.

boslab
02-20-2008, 01:39 PM
my apologies, there is an eagle produced in china, according to the website, but not this one, appologies to the Dronsfield brothers also.
regards
mark

TheAndroid
03-10-2008, 05:27 PM
Grinding takes place on the corner of the wheel.

By corner do you mean the actual edge of the wheel making the grind? In bad ASCII art:
_____
|.....|
|.....|
|.....|
--__|
^^Corner

What I'm unclear on is how this helps in grinding large surfaces. The corner is going to wear away as I move the material across the face of the wheel isn't it? So essentially, it is only going to last as long as the width of the wheel in material "depth", correct? Or is the wheel that much tougher (harder isn't really the right word here is it?) than the material (assuming I selected the correct one for the task) that this corner stands up longer than the width of the face?

pcarpenter
03-10-2008, 05:59 PM
You have the right idea by your drawing. The point in doing it that way is that you have one in-feed width of the wheel to wear away ten thousandths at a time before you change the diameter of the cutting surface.

In the other scheme, the whole face of the wheel is used in each pass. This means that the whole wheel starts to change dimensionally from the very first pass. This makes it hard to maintain the same surface dimension as you move across the work.

This methodology helps to keep (at least) one narrow band of the wheel the original dressed diameter as long as possible.

Imagine if you were say milling a surface with a tool whose dimension changed measurably before you even covered one pass. Its pretty hard to make something flat that way. It is not normally a concern with milling...but it is with grinding where the dimension of the abraisive is changed by the material being cut.

Paul

Pete Grainger
12-31-2017, 04:44 PM
Hi Norman, I saw in a post that you responded to some years ago that you have made an MES surface grinder! Several years ago I bought several buckets-full and boxes-full (i kid you not) of castings and square stock that I have been sorting out and one of the machines that I have at least some, but not all the parts of is this machine. As well as some missing parts there are no instructions or drawings and I just wondered if you still have them left over from your construction? Any help you could provide would be fantastic!
Regards

Pete.

reggie_obe
12-31-2017, 05:49 PM
Hi Norman, I saw in a post that you responded to some years ago that you have made an MES surface grinder! Several years ago I bought several buckets-full and boxes-full (i kid you not) of castings and square stock that I have been sorting out and one of the machines that I have at least some, but not all the parts of is this machine. As well as some missing parts there are no instructions or drawings and I just wondered if you still have them left over from your construction? Any help you could provide would be fantastic!
Regards

Pete.

This topic is from 2008 and maybe you didn't notice, Norman Atkinson Guest. No longer a member here. Why don't you contact the company that sold the castings kit directly?

EddyCurr
12-31-2017, 06:57 PM
Why don't you contact the company that sold the castings kit directly?The company, MES - short for Model Engineering Services, appears to have ceased trading.

Six or seven yrs ago, MES founder Ivan Law had expressed intentions to hand off MES to a son, Mike Law. A Mar 3, 2017 post by Neil Wyatt reports that M Law had informed him that MES was inactive and would remain so. Apparently remaining stock of Quorn castings and patterns for same had been passed on to another enterprise - Bonelle. In due course, Bonelle was expected to pick up the torch ...

Pete Grainger, can you reply to confirm that you are asking about a surface grinder from MES, and NOT about their castings for the Quorn Universal Tool & Cutter Grinder.

I don't know anything about an MES surface grinder, but if what you really have are castings for building a Quorn then you can likely get replacements for missing pieces from US supplier Martin Model & Pattern (http://www.martinmodel.com/MMPtools.html). As for fabrication and operation details, perhaps the foremost reference is the book by Professor D.H. (Dennis Hilliar) Chaddock (http://www.modelenginenews.org/meng/quorn/dhc.html)


Edit: Upon rereading the source material, I suspect I am mistaken about Bonelle being the firm that received the castings and patterns to carry on the Quorn. Someone else posted about Bonelle, Neil Wyatt didn't disclose the name he'd been told about by Mike Law.

flylo
12-31-2017, 07:09 PM
Nice looking setup. Thanks for sharing the surface grinder rookie info with us. I've had my eye out for something smaller and clean looking but no luck so far. Still have to wrestle with the 3 phase change-over. Is your setup 3 phase?

Too bad you're not closer I have a 6"x12" with the mag chuck I need to get rid of & it's 120V.

reggie_obe
12-31-2017, 11:09 PM
Your Old Dog hasn't logged onto HSM since 05-22-2013 08:07 AM

flylo
12-31-2017, 11:40 PM
Guess he doesn't need it. Hate these old revived threads :p

Mcgyver
01-01-2018, 10:15 AM
This topic is from 2008 and maybe you didn't notice, Norman Atkinson Guest. No longer a member here. Why don't you contact the company that sold the castings kit directly?

I don't think Norm is a member anywhere anymore? I liked him, he gave the impression of being well educated and traveled, but never revealed the means or substance behind it. International man of mystery lol

metalmagpie
01-01-2018, 12:14 PM
Old or not, I gotta get my 2 cents in. I got a KO Lee 612 awhile back, when KO Lee were still in business. I got a mag chuck from Al Babin on ebay (yes, one of his few honest deals) and I asked KO Lee what their procedure is.

They said you HAVE to use coolant, even if you have to drop a little pump into a 5 gallon bucket. Their process then mirrored oldtiffie's - dress table, grind chuck bottom, grind chuck top. But without coolant you'll have problems.

metalmagpie