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View Full Version : Japanese quality values slipping?



Evan
02-28-2008, 10:53 AM
I bought some drill bits the other day on sale. I didn't spend much for them but I would have been better off using the money to light my fireplace. This is what they look like:

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/drillbitsa.jpg

Looks like bottom run Chinese junk to me. No two are ground the same or have the cutting edges near equally ground. The part that surprised me and the reason I bought them is this.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/drillbitsb.jpg

Last time I checked Kawasaki was a Japanese company. If they are lending their name to this sort of crap I won't be thinking of buying anything from them or with their name on it again.

There is no excuse. If they didn't know the quality would be this bad it is their fault. If they did know it is their fault.

Carld
02-28-2008, 11:04 AM
Perhaps the reason they are on sale is because the defect was found and they couldn't return them so they sold them at discount.

If the OD is ok just regrind them. You will loose the plated tip but I never had much faith in the coated drills anyway or even the coated endmills.

Once the coating is off the cutting edge it's just a common cutter.

Evan
02-28-2008, 11:06 AM
The store that sold them is a Canada wide chain store and doesn't sell seconds or defective merchandise intentionally.

Even if it were so it still doesn't excuse Kawasaki management. They should have been scrapped if that were the case.

topct
02-28-2008, 11:45 AM
Looks like a Chinese ripoff of the name. There are a bunch of those on e-bay for too cheap.

JCHannum
02-28-2008, 12:06 PM
Kawasaki is the name of several manufacturers in Japan, from motorcycles to heavy machinery. I don't know if they have any presence in cutting tools.

That said, those drills are undoubtably Chicom. It may be a Japanese company or just a name. Unfortunately more and more businesses are giving their good name to low grade Chinese products. Here, Wilton and Kurt both sell lines of junk.

The TiN coating is the latest lipstick the Chinese are putting on their pigs. Purchasing packaged cutting tools on the open market and expecting quality is a mistake. Buy your drills individually from an industrial supplier for the best quality and stick to the known name brands.

interiorpainter
02-28-2008, 12:12 PM
It does not need to be a ripoff. There are more people that are called Kawasaki-san. Looks bad. This is the reason i only buy what i can touch first.

Got a 10inch Stanley honing stone from a fair. It looks like an old brick.
It is usefull for its price but i am sure the stuck on paper is fake.

Guido
02-28-2008, 12:17 PM
Been a weird world from the get go. Yamaha of Japan? has built/branded everything from concert pianos to motorcycles to snow skis.

Kawasaki power tools were sold locally by Pep Boys, lasted about 90 days. Nothing but bad news, end of story.

The good, the bad, the ugly now seems to be the new 'Murican Way.

G

NickH
02-28-2008, 12:22 PM
You was done mate!
I'd be just as suspicious of Suzuki, Honda and Yamaha drill bits too:D
Nick

Alistair Hosie
02-28-2008, 12:26 PM
what did you pay for them ? if was pennies then what do you expect if it was big bucks then you have a right to be annoyed.Alistair

Evan
02-28-2008, 12:40 PM
They were on sale for maybe 5 bucks, normal price $20. That is perfectly in line with what Canadian tire does on a weekly basis. They put something good on below cost as a loss leader to get you in the store. I can't see them as being counterfeit as C Tire is usually pretty careful about that. I could take them back but why bother? I'll use them for shear pins or something. If the metal is any good I'll just resharpen them.


Buy your drills individually from an industrial supplier for the best quality and stick to the known name brands.

I do, they cost $2 to $3 apiece in the small sizes for good names such as Dormer. I'm not complaining about the money. It's the quality issue from a manufacturer that I thought I could trust primarily because of the general culture of quality that has characterized Japanese products for the last 30 to 40 years or so. It isn't the outsourcing issue either, the Chinese make perfectly good products lately although they are lagging in the cutting tool dept.

dp
02-28-2008, 01:53 PM
Many companies make high and low end versions of their product - General Motors, for example, produces products for the entire range of likely customers (based on income).

These drills are probably just fine for knocking cheap holes in some small wood projects, or for a single mom to use for hanging picture frames. The price itself is a clue as to what to expect. I don't think the average tinkerer and weekend mechanic is going to go out and buy up drawers full of Snap-On tools, nor would he miss them. I have them because I used to be a professional mechanic and I would have missed them.

So there is a market for tools of this quality and if you recognize the hint (the price) you will accept that you get what you pay for.

I've purchased US made junk as bad as what you have so there's probably no justification to drag nationalities into the discussion - junk is universal. And there's a global market for it.

Dragons_fire
02-28-2008, 02:38 PM
i bought a similar set of drills from the same place, they looked the same but were branded something else. i dont know if you have chucked them up yet, but mine werent straight.. i tried using them to drill some pilot holes for self tapping screws in my metal bumper, and they would just spin and smoke!! chucked up a good bit in the hand drill and was through the bumper without even thinking about it!! those bits are now used when i know im gonna wreck it, or for stuff thats soft and needs NO precision.

airsmith282
02-28-2008, 02:42 PM
lesson i learned the hard way on drill bits. Dont buy sets dont buy at discount prices and dont but HSS titianium ,. Get colbolt and pay the price for the good stuff. And buy only the drill sizes you need and will use most often..

I got into sets and got drills on deals and now i gota pile of crap in the corner ,, sence then i have spent alot of money on drills but only buy the ones i need. And i buy colbolt drills only and so far no hassles and no junk and my stuff i drill turns out way better as well and iam not having to resharpen then as often now either ...

matador
02-28-2008, 04:37 PM
Same old story,you get what you pay for.I have a cheap Tin set,but only use it for woodwork.For metalwork I have both metric and imperial industrial sets.
I don't know about pricing in the US or Canada,but here at the bottom of the world,a genuine TIn 1/4" drill would cost more than Evan paid for his whole set.
That to me is a sure sign not too expect high quality.

Evan
02-28-2008, 04:52 PM
I don't know about pricing in the US or Canada,but here at the bottom of the world,a genuine TIn 1/4" drill would cost more than Evan paid for his whole set.

I do hope you aren't paying $20 for a 1.4" drill bit. That is the normal price for the set I bought. It was on sale as a loss leader. That isn't particularly cheap for a small set like that. I can buy good quality 8% cobalt drill bits for 2 to 3 dollars each in that size range so the difference in price per bit at regular price isn't that much.



I've purchased US made junk as bad as what you have so there's probably no justification to drag nationalities into the discussion - junk is universal. And there's a global market for it.

This isn't about nationalities, it's about brands you can trust. Made in Japan is a brand as is Made in China and Made in USA. While it is pretty obvious that the bits weren't made in Japan the brand is Japanese and the Made in Japan brand is a sign of quality. It is exceedingly foolish for a manufacturer to spoil his reputation by selling junk with his name on it. As the old and true saying goes, it can take years to build up a reputation and moments to destroy it.

bob ward
02-28-2008, 04:59 PM
The Chinese are not renowned for their observance of intellectual property rights, copyright, brand names etc.

Perhaps these Kawasaki drill bits have no association of any sort with the well known and well respected Japanese conglomerate.

garyphansen
02-28-2008, 05:04 PM
The over all manufacturing ablity of Japan durning WWII was way behind that of the USA. However, they were at the time ahead of the USA and Germany in their ablity to make drills. Gary P. Hansen

macona
02-28-2008, 05:07 PM
Starrett sells stuff from china with their label. Kawasaki can do the same.

Alistair Hosie
02-28-2008, 05:07 PM
c'mon evan sharpen them properly and maybe they will last a while maybe you will get five canadian bucks worth of drilling out of them seems very cheap to me.Still it makes you want to watch out in future staying vigilance is the correct way to go, but I think you did ok.Alistair

Evan
02-28-2008, 05:16 PM
Perhaps these Kawasaki drill bits have no association of any sort with the well known and well respected Japanese conglomerate.
It's very unlikely they are counterfeit. The store I bought them from is, as I have already said, quite fussy about that sort of thing. The have to be as they are a national chain and we have fairly strict laws about misrepresenting products.

This is what it says on the back.
http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/drillbits3.jpg

As I also said, lending the Kawasaki brand name to this junk cheapens and dilutes the entire brand including the Made in Japan brand.


Starrett sells stuff from china with their label. Kawasaki can do the same.

Of course they can. It isn't a wise business decision to sell crap though. I don't mind buying chinese made goods if they are of acceptable quality. These are not.

66glide
02-28-2008, 05:45 PM
I own an auto repair shop and find many reputable, well known parts manufacturers are "leasing" out their good name. It's all about big money and marketing--trust no-one!!! Gotta go--I need to line my attic with tin-foil!! They are watching.........:p

lazlo
02-28-2008, 05:52 PM
As I also said, lending the Kawasaki brand name to this junk cheapens and dilutes the entire brand including the Made in Japan brand.

Notice on the back that it says "Licensed to Kawasaki Motors, U.S.A." Not surprising that a US company would sell-off a good name. Like Kurt selling cheap Chinese hand tools with their name on it.

Those drills are made by Alltrade, which is the same (Chinese) junk that Costco sells.

bob ward
02-28-2008, 06:38 PM
Looks like the label on the back tells the whole story. Kawasaki US has jeopardised Kawasaki's good name and brand image with a poor licensing agreement.

I imagine the phones are running hot from Kawasaki HQ in Japan to Kawasaki US as we type.

oldtiffie
02-28-2008, 07:11 PM
As I also said, lending the Kawasaki brand name to this junk cheapens and dilutes the entire brand including the Made in Japan brand.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/drillbits3.jpg


Notice on the back that it says "Licensed to Kawasaki Motors, U.S.A." Not surprising that a US company would sell-off a good name. Like Kurt selling cheap Chinese hand tools with their name on it.

Those drills are made by Alltrade, which is the same (Chinese) junk that Costco sells.

Oops lazlo.

It says "licenced by" - which is even worse. But it gets worse as they try to disclaim all or any responsibility and then compound it by directing consumers elsewhere (to "Alltrade") which as you say is a "bit suss".

I am NOT using this as a "USA-bashing exercise" - at all. This happens everywhere.

Frankly, if I saw that sort of disclaimer I'd have given it a miss no matter what or where the apparent source.

Perhaps the fault was neither in Japan nor China but a bit closer to home.

The local store (C Tyre?) is just as much at fault for letting an item through with that sort of warranty avoidance and taking advantage of a well known and respected Trade Name - again, no matter which country it is in or from.

I suspect that people may pay more attention to the labels on stuff on the super-market shelves than they do to machine tools and equipment. Or perhaps their wives do the shopping and read the labels.

Evan
02-28-2008, 07:19 PM
The name Alltrade means nothing to me or it did until now. I don't shop at Costco, the nearest one is 150 miles from here. I thought it reasonable to trust the Kawasaki brand name. Not any more. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Not going to happen though.

mjm3xs
02-28-2008, 07:19 PM
Those drills are made by Alltrade, which is the same (Chinese) junk that Costco sells.
yep alltrades teh name . i got a whole set of alltrade tools years ago from a girlfriend as a present. of course i showed great appreciation for the tools but in the back of my mind was thinking what am i gonna do with all this junk.first thing i did was weld all the sockets to the wrenches only a few cAME IN HANdY BUT i chalked it up to welding exercise.the 9/16 i bent to about a 45 for a distributor wrench and still use it to this day.

lane
02-28-2008, 07:20 PM
I would relay be P--ed if they were sold by HONDA. Kawasaki 2nd rate any way.

dp
02-28-2008, 07:29 PM
Kawasaki used to build some pretty nice machinery:
http://www.aviastar.org/air/japan/kawasaki_ki-78.php

That's actually an interesting website if you're fan of airplanes.

mochinist
02-28-2008, 07:31 PM
Starrett sells stuff from china with their label. Kawasaki can do the same.They at least call it Starrett select brand, still duped a few suckers though, including my old boss:D

oldtiffie
02-28-2008, 07:33 PM
The name Alltrade means nothing to me or it did until now. I don't shop at Costco, the nearest one is 150 miles from here. I thought it reasonable to trust the Kawasaki brand name. Not any more. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Not going to happen though.

I can understand your being pi**ed off Evan.

I can also understand you comment:

Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Not going to happen though.

But it seems that Kawasaki may be in the clear or was at least careless in how its name was used. That is reason enough to be wary in future.

But there is a clear trail to All Trade, which is not held in too high regard - and apparently with good reason - here.

mochinist
02-28-2008, 07:40 PM
Call me crazy, but the big green box and the giant word "titanium" would have tipped me off that they were probably junk, that sh1t is all marketing for people that dont know, kinda like "cnc machined aircraft billet".:D

dp
02-28-2008, 07:40 PM
This isn't about nationalities, it's about brands you can trust. Made in Japan is a brand as is Made in China and Made in USA. While it is pretty obvious that the bits weren't made in Japan the brand is Japanese and the Made in Japan brand is a sign of quality. It is exceedingly foolish for a manufacturer to spoil his reputation by selling junk with his name on it. As the old and true saying goes, it can take years to build up a reputation and moments to destroy it.

The title of the thread is misleading - it appeared to be condemning Japan for the shoddy product of a single company. I agree with you and I think too what you're experiencing is the the result of a global economy. We can't accept labeling as an indication of anything - it means only that there was once wet ink there. Companies are selling off their reputations and the result is an imprimatur that will finally have no value what so ever. Harley is out front with this - the Harley logo is on stinking piles of junk that nobody would buy were in not for the logo.

Evan
02-28-2008, 07:40 PM
Unless Alltrade is using the name without rights the responsibility rests entirely with Kawasaki. They are solely responsible for protecting their brand image. Nobody else is going to do it for them. When I worked for Xerox we were always instructed to tell the customer that the copier is a copier, not a "xerox" and the copies are copies, not "xeroxes". We were never to use the word Xerox except in reference to the brand or the company.

dp
02-28-2008, 07:59 PM
Here's another interesting twist:

http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/madeusa/letters/kawasakifinal.shtm

Thomas Staubo
02-28-2008, 08:03 PM
Kawasaki used to build some pretty nice machinery:
http://www.aviastar.org/air/japan/kawasaki_ki-78.php

That's actually an interesting website if you're fan of airplanes.

Thanks for the link, dp.

I do have some interest in airplanes, and it amazed me that even Norway had made an airplane!
It was called 'Kjeller FF-6 (http://www.aviastar.org/air/norway/kjeller_ff-6.php)' but it was a miss, and only the prototype was built.

Not surprising really, as Norway always was pretty far behind on constructing land transportation equipment. Only one plane (as seen above), no trains and no trucks or lorries.
It was first in 1991 that the first commercial car was made in some numbers here, and that is a small electric car by the name of 'Think! (http://en.think.no/)' (yes, the exclamation mark is part of the name). Not counting the 'Troll' car, as only five of those were ever built.

On the other hand, we have always been pretty good at constructing ships, and also making bodyworks for buses and some trucks.


Well, this was a bit far from the topic of drill bits.
Sorry!:)


.

oldtiffie
02-28-2008, 08:06 PM
Here's another interesting twist:

http://www.ftc.gov/os/statutes/madeusa/letters/kawasakifinal.shtm


Oops - again.

It seems that Evan is right and that Kawasaki USA is not a first-time offender.

I wonder too what action Kawasaki Japan has taken in this regard.

BadDog
02-28-2008, 08:46 PM
Starrett sells stuff from china with their label. Kawasaki can do the same.
And yet another MBA drone guts a brand for short term profit. He and his cronies will get rich, the other 99.9% of the company will suffer long term loss (usually taken in by raiding pensions, benefits and such from the broad base lower echelon), and customers will be pissed. But the MBA type in charge will get a bonus, probably several...

sconisbee
02-28-2008, 09:54 PM
Call me crazy, but the big green box and the giant word "titanium" would have tipped me off that they were probably junk, that sh1t is all marketing for people that dont know, kinda like "cnc machined aircraft billet".:D

that and the $20 price tag:D

Doc Nickel
02-28-2008, 10:24 PM
The name Alltrade means nothing to me or it did until now.

-Alltrade was the first cheap Chinese brand tools I encountered, some 25 years ago now. They were first sold through JC Whitney, and several people I know, trying to put their first cars together cheap, would by them in lieu of more expensive name-brand stuff.

Set of three ball-peen hammers? Cast iron heads, faces mushroomed and crumbled. Fiberglass handles held up nicely though! A set of "bodyman's tools" including three hammers and three dollies? More cast iron junk- it'd last a noob long enough to beat a few dents out of his first car, but that was about it.

Socket sets that cracked, screwdrivers that rounded themselves, a "2 ton" floor jack that struggled to lift one end of a VW beetle...


I thought it reasonable to trust the Kawasaki brand name. Not any more. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. Not going to happen though.

-You bought it on the name, color and cheap price, all of which were marketing tricks specifically designed to entice you to buy it.

Honestly, I can't imagine you even assuming that "Kawasaki" would be a good supplier for cutting tools anyway- isn't that like assuming Ford would make good desktop PCs, or Maytag would make good camera lenses?

Anyway, I think those aren't "loss leaders" as you think. I seem to recall that Kawasaki licensed a line of tools a few years back, including some cordless stuff. The line, of course, flopped because they were focused more on price and branding instead of quality.

That means it's more likely those bits were remaindered, not current loss leaders.

Anyway, don't hold it against Kawasaki. I see them the same way I see Harley Davidson- their actual product is decent (motorcycles, and in the case of Kawi, their jet-skis and ATVs) but anything else with the H-D name or logo? Their sunglasses and bandannas, the HD clocks and thermoses, the HD coolers and shirts? All are just the same import crap with a different name on 'em.

Doc.

DR
02-28-2008, 10:25 PM
Doesn't the package have an indication of country of origin?

A sure tip-off of junk should have been the label identifying these bits as titanium. They might actually be titanium alloy coated but not made of titanium as implied by the verbiage.

J Tiers
02-28-2008, 10:52 PM
The package clearly says "made in china".

That, along with the coating, equals TRASH....

My boss buys those ^%$#@ drills...... Every one in the shop is dull.

I tried to sharpen one. Actually, I more than 'tried" I DID sharpen it. I needed to drill a hole and it was the right size, and the only one of its size. Well, I drilled TWO holes, in mild steel CR sheet. On the third hole, it wasn't drilling, so I looked at the newly sharpened end.

YEP.... THAT DRILL LOOKED ABOUT AS SHARP AS THE TOP OF A MUSHROOM. It was so soft under that coating that it couldn't drill mild steel.

Evan, yah got took. You now know that "made in china" cheap goods are junk, a fact which has some applicability to a recent couple of threads here.

I really like the points on some of those...... looks like they were split by someone who was once told what a split point was, has never seen one, has poor hand-eye co-ordination, and a bad memory for descriptions.

CCWKen
02-29-2008, 12:34 AM
Well, I doubt they sell for $20. I get a set of 115 TIN coated bits in a steel box for $39. It's not uncommon for companies to license their logo. Ford and GM do it a lot. When I buy new parts for Model T's and A's, they'll come with the Ford script on them just like original parts. Early Chevy repops are the same. The Bow-tie emblem is there in all it's glory. Sometimes you just have to peel off the "Made in China" sticker to see it though. :rolleyes:

CCWKen
02-29-2008, 12:46 AM
LOL... I've never had a problem with my cheap TIN bits. They sharpen well and last a long time. I broke a 3/8" bit but that was my fault. I just dressed the end and resharpened. For the price, you can't beat the service. I have four sets I keep around for general use. If I'm doing precision work, I drag out the few "good" bits I have. :o

Evan
02-29-2008, 01:36 AM
I didn't expect highest quality. I also didn't expect crap. What's with all this excusing and apologizing for a corporation putting thier brand on garbage? I sure will hold it against them, even just one purchase. Now I cannot trust the Kawasaki brand name, period. Why should I think this is some sort of anomaly? As I said, they won't get another chance to fool me.

The price is not a clue at Canadian tire. They put on good quality products at below wholesale prices every week. They are most definitely loss leaders. It's how they do business and I get some really good deals by waiting until an item of interest goes on such a sale. They will discount as low as 75% off regular on tools. They also have considerable buying power.

Here is what I was expecting.

This is a nearly identical set "imported by Makita" for the same price on sale.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/drillbitsd.jpg

And these are a full set of the house brand that went on sale for about $20 a while ago.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/drillbitse.jpg

BadDog
02-29-2008, 01:55 AM
And I've got one of those big sets of gold bits from HF sales. Not great, but frankly, they work well enough when I need that random odd size I don't have for some obscure tap or something. I much prefer my PTD screw length (number and fractional) and a whole host of good name in lots of sizes, but there is always that ONE that I don't have, except in the cheap kit, and it gets me by...

On the other hand, a friend of mine bought a "Made in the USA" 1/4 x 6" extra long bit for a project. Not a name brand, but not the "cheap Chinese". Frankly, the Chinese would be better. He brought it by here for me to look at, and I tried to sharpen it. The steel is so soft that my grinder knocked a bur on it that was almost impossible to eliminate except with the very lightest touch on the fine side. I think it's softer than common HR mild steel, totally useless unless you're drilling in damp mud. He would have been far better to save his money and buy Chinese, at least that would probably have drilled the 2 holes he needed the bit for!

dp
02-29-2008, 02:09 AM
I didn't expect highest quality. I also didn't expect crap. What's with all this excusing and apologizing for a corporation putting thier brand on garbage?

There is a legitimate market for that quality of tool - you are not in it. There's a lot of lower income people that just can't afford good stuff and that which you bought it typical of what they buy. That is also a big market segment which is why Walmart is doing pretty well. I don't see that as excusing - I see it as fulfillment. Somebody's going to do it.

Evan
02-29-2008, 02:17 AM
Somebody's going to do it.

Sure, that's what dollar stores are for.

aostling
02-29-2008, 02:46 AM
Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me.

So that's what he was trying to say. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKgPY1adc0A

dp
02-29-2008, 02:58 AM
Sure, that's what dollar stores are for.

That is something you can take to your vendor. But as you haven't any contract of quality assurance based on the criteria you have offered ("Made in Japan stands for something") you probably don't have a much of a case to make. The fact is it is your government that has set your expectations and then let you down and they are your only recourse. The vendor's quality requirements don't come from the power of the market place, but by government policies (nanny state) that may or may not have teeth. I expect they go without. Perhaps the government is actually in on it. That is the historic bain of socialist government - too cozy with the business class at the expense of the wage earner.

Or maybe you can just ask for a refund and return the goods and someone else will get stuck with it. I bought something last year that was absolutely a POS that would not work, period, and the factory would not warrant. I took it back. A week later that exact item was back on the shelf and later resold. I know it was resold because the new owner registered the warranty. I had also registered the warranty, and I got his copy :) He was also trying to return it, as it happens. I've no doubt the item went back on the shelf for a third trip home. And I'm assuming I was the first but without basis.

airsmith282
02-29-2008, 06:52 AM
well im in the lower income earing lower class as its called i guess.

I used to buy cheaper deal more product less money.
But i learned my lesson as i had stated in the post already.
Spending the extra bucks on quaillity gets me a better product in the end and happier customer as well. i had looked at thoes kawie bits as well and I was not impressed.
Nice case but over priced crap was in side the case. I dont care if its made in china USA or canada if its good quaility ill by it.. my lathe is made in china my latest problem is the t bolts that hold the compound on decided to strip. they very piss poor made bolts and nuts but. do I dont care. Not really.. I order in 6 replacments so now i have spares, and soon as i get the time iam going to make some really high quialty ones my self.. the rest of my machine is really good and no complaints otherwise..

my lathe is not the best one on the market its 100 times better then the 7x12 i started with also made in china.. But it was junk it blew up after 2 months.i still cant afford the really high end lathe i want. But i can work with what i have untill i can work my but off and save my money for the one i really want..also my needs do not dictate the requirment for a 5000,00 lathe at this time ,some things can be used of cheaper value to do the same job depending on the needs.. quaility tooling for the lathe is very importante to me,i first bought some really crapy stuff i had a budget so a 7x12 and junky boring bars half decent drill sets that was a mistake right there onthe drill bits cheap chuck you get the idea here ,,I rarely use the boring bars good thing to cause they suck for the 60 bucks i paid for them... Oh well next time i need a boaring bar iam going to spend my money on a good 1 or 2 of them as needed..until i can afford some really high end carbide cutters iam switching back to home made HSS cutters..

alot of its not just lower income people that buy the cheaper stuff either even people with money buy the cheaper stuff, to many people give up quaility and go for the quaintity.. wow what a deal, i looked at the big titium set of drill bits as well alsmost went for it to... That 115 peice set from Ctire 60.00 on sale wow it would give me so many different sizes..
Then i thought waite a min that stuff is junk, ok for wood maby ok but not for metal munching, so i stayed away from it and well continue to do so ,, i need quaility tools not junk in my drawers..

every country that makes stuff makes cheap junk and good stuff so you cant really say stuff made in china is junk here or stuff made in canada or the us or poland is junk. because thats just not the case..

when your shopping for a stereo and you want great sound and long lasting stuff you dont buy and all in one unit you buy seperate components and some people mixband names as well ,, example i have a marantz amp , and a yamaha deck, and pioneer cd player,, buti got crapy speakers but they sound great for now till i get interested in speinding more money, its decent midddle of the road set up for a home stereo,,

for the really high end stuff , names like harmon kardon , mix with nad and AR and oracl etc then add in some really cool bose speakers and a set of paradime monitors now you talking some big bucks and great sound..


our tools are no different really... Settle for the most for your buck you get junk. Get 1 or 2 peices and pay the same or 5 times the price per peice then you got better quailty tools that will last longer hold a better edge and produce better quaility work..

Evan
02-29-2008, 07:29 AM
For the most part I have very high quality tools and tooling. I do buy cheap small tools for certain jobs and consider them disposable, angle grinders being an example. Iron fabrication work is hard on tools, espcially grinders and drills. My eyes aren't as good as they used to be and it is easier to just grab another new drill bit than it is to resharpen the old one. I'm more concerned about the tool being able to do what I need rather than the cost.

Buying something that turns out to be garbage and wasting five dollars isn't the point of this thread. The point is that a company that I would expect to have a certain minimum standard of quality appears to have lowered that standard so far that the tools are unusable for the intended purpose. A split point drill is supposed to stay in one place when starting to drill a hole. That only works if the drill is correctly sharpened which the Kawasaki bits are not.

The chain of responsibility goes directly back to the management of the parent company. Corporate cultural values derive from the general culture of the society in which it operates and was founded. The Japanese corporations are not known for producing or selling junk in the last 30 years or so and it took them quite a few years after WWII to earn that reputation. Sony and Sharp were leaders in that role followed closely by the several Japanese motorcycle manufacturers Honda, Suzuki and Kawasaki.

If the daughter company in the US, which appears to be managed by someone familiar with Japanese cultural values, has exceeded their authority in licencing the company name then that is a matter for the parent company to deal with. The captain of a company is responsible for what that company does even when he has no direct control or involvement in the decision making process. It is very much like the captain of a ship who is ultimately responsible for every action of every member of the crew.

When I see what I used to consider a reputable company lending their name to a very low quality product it tells me that the culture of quality in that company is changing for the worse. I don't have time or even the eyesight to make a close inspection of everything I buy so I partially depend on brands to make buying decisions, however small. The Kawasaki brand is off my list.

J Tiers
02-29-2008, 08:15 AM
If you buy similar OTHER than Kawasaki, you may get the ones just before or after those from the very same production line.

If you buy tools on price, you will probably get the equivalent to what I have for many years called the "Target store lead screwdriver". Something which can only be called a counterfeit.

The term came from the original crap brand, Stanley. The discount store Stanley tools have always been suspect.

The screwdriver term came from having to use , at someone else's house, a Stanley branded screwdriver which was so soft it couldn't have been described with a "hardness", you'd have been closer with a "durometer" value. Might as well have been annealed lead.

No, this wasn't recently, it was at least 25 years ago, probably more.

The "Alltrade" tools have always been crap IMO. Another brand name won't fix that.

BUT, the "TiN" coating, combined with low price, has been a "marker" for crap. Just coat anything with that, and it acquires the status of "billet aluminum". Canadian Tire or whatever notwithstanding, you are well advised to stay away.

NickH
02-29-2008, 08:35 AM
So now we've read the package label we know it has nothing to do with Kawasaki Japan.
It's the US arm of Kawasaki licensing any old chinese junk to be sold under the name!
Who'd a thought it?

Doc Nickel
02-29-2008, 08:44 AM
The point is that a company that I would expect to have a certain minimum standard of quality appears to have lowered that standard so far that the tools are unusable for the intended purpose.

-From my point of view, it seems you expected a bubble-packed set of drills, priced at about the same level as pocket lint, clearly labelled with the near-synonyms "Titanium!" and "Made in China", and branded with the name of a company by no stretch of the imagination even remotely associated with home-shop tooling, to be anything other than crap.

And, having been taken as easily as any carny mark by the combination of pricing so low it should have been a warning, not an enticement, and the attached Big-Name Brand, even though that name is in no way commonly associated with that particular product, you're now angry not at yourself, but at the Big Name Company that put it's name on crap products, despite the fact that pretty much every other company in the world does that exact same thing. (Re, the aformentioned HD-branded trinkets, the import "Wilton" vises, Starrett's import line, ad nauseum.)

Or, to put it simply, you bought crap when you knew better, now you're pissed about it, and want to put the blame on somebody elses' shoulders.

Doc.

Evan
02-29-2008, 09:25 AM
-From my point of view, it seems you expected a bubble-packed set of drills, priced at about the same level as pocket lint, clearly labelled with the near-synonyms "Titanium!" and "Made in China", and branded with the name of a company by no stretch of the imagination even remotely associated with home-shop tooling, to be anything other than crap.

Not paying attention Doc? The 1/2" set are similarly priced (on a per bit basis) and are also dyed yellow but are reasonable quality and do the job. They are also correctly sharpened, quite nicely too. The TiN flash coating and Made in China are not an automatic indicator of garbage. They can and do make low priced drill bits that serve the purpose I expect. Also, the price I pay has nothing to do with the cost of manufacture or retail value. When a retail chain decides to lose money on a sale the normal economics don't apply on a per item basis.

Again, you guys don't seem to be understanding what I am complaining about. It isn't that I got taken on my purchase. It's that a formerly reputable brand name is no longer to be trusted. So who is next? What about Mitutoyo? Perhaps Honda?

JCHannum
02-29-2008, 10:13 AM
The package is very clearly and undeniably marked Made In China.

You bought it, and now you are complaining that it is made in China crap quality? That is kind of like, say, someone blaming the manufacturer because he keeps cutting the cord on his skilsaw.

mochinist
02-29-2008, 10:27 AM
Not paying attention Doc? The 1/2" set are similarly priced (on a per bit basis) and are also dyed yellow but are reasonable quality and do the job. They are also correctly sharpened, quite nicely too. The TiN flash coating and Made in China are not an automatic indicator of garbage. They can and do make low priced drill bits that serve the purpose I expect. Also, the price I pay has nothing to do with the cost of manufacture or retail value. When a retail chain decides to lose money on a sale the normal economics don't apply on a per item basis.

Again, you guys don't seem to be understanding what I am complaining about. It isn't that I got taken on my purchase. It's that a formerly reputable brand name is no longer to be trusted. So who is next? What about Mitutoyo? Perhaps Honda?Mitutoyo makes a lot of their tools in Brazil, I bought a 6 Mitutoyo dial caliper once and it said made in Brazil and the feel of the caliper was quite rough and not nearly as smooth as my previous Japanese made calipers. There was no price difference or indication that they were any different in the catalog.

Evan
02-29-2008, 10:59 AM
You bought it, and now you are complaining that it is made in China crap quality? That is kind of like, say, someone blaming the manufacturer because he keeps cutting the cord on his skilsaw.
Sigh. You STILL DON"T UNDERSTAND. I am complaining about what was formerly to me a trusted brand name being cheapened so that it can no longer be trusted. It has nothing to do with by whom or where the tools were made. It has everything to do with the managment of Kawasaki not caring what their brand stands for.

NOTE what the title of the thread says.

[edit]

Some of you people including Doc, Jerry and you Jim seem to have severe tunnel vision in this sort of thing. You insist on interpreting my comments to suit your perception instead of actually trying to understand what I am saying.

Willy
02-29-2008, 11:24 AM
I too have to agree with Evan on this one.
Kawasaki, although mostly known to the general public for it's line of recreational equipment, is actually one of the most respected names in fields as diverse as aerospace, ship building, and heavy equipment.
http://www.khi.co.jp/products/index_e.html

Not sure but I believe it is one of the largest super tanker builders of the world. Also their line of heavy equipment is sold world wide.

I too would have been influenced by the brand name. One does not expect an organization with the credibility and reputation of Kawasaki or GM to sell and soil the brand identity by affixing their logo on such substandard products.

NickH
02-29-2008, 11:33 AM
Evan we understand what you're moaning about.

It's just that we're moaning back that if you'd read the package & understood the implications of
Use of Kawasaki trad mark Licensed by Kawasaki US
and
Made in China
Along with the hilarious we've let them use our name but don't call us - call them.
you should have known exactly what to expect.

I'd have run a mile, once I stopped laughing.

Some gits will do anything to make a buck and Kawasaki Corp US seem to have bought a ticket for that particular show.

This in no way affects my opinion of Kawasaki Japan's engineering standards, it just confirms my thoughts about business men and accountants, in this case Americans.

I think the consensus might be that you should get over it?:D
Nick

JCHannum
02-29-2008, 11:48 AM
Sigh. You STILL DON"T UNDERSTAND. I am complaining about what was formerly to me a trusted brand name being cheapened so that it can no longer be trusted. It has nothing to do with by whom or where the tools were made. It has everything to do with the managment of Kawasaki not caring what their brand stands for.

NOTE what the title of the thread says.

[edit]

Some of you people including Doc, Jerry and you Jim seem to have severe tunnel vision in this sort of thing. You insist on interpreting my comments to suit your perception instead of actually trying to understand what I am saying.

If it was a "trusted brand", what other Kawaski branded cutting tools have you purchased that have instilled that level of trust?

Maytag is a "trusted brand". Would you have bought the drills had they been branded Maytag?

There is a line of Asian lathes that are branded Cadillac. They are a good quality machine, but I sincerely doubt that you would purchase one with the assumption they had anything to do with Cadillac automobiles or General Motors.

Kawasaki is a city in Japan, as well as a relatively common Japanese name. It's use does not necessarily relate to Kawasaki motorcycles. Had you turned the package over to verify the origin, Made in China would have been immediately evident.

sconisbee
02-29-2008, 12:10 PM
If it was a "trusted brand", what other Kawaski branded cutting tools have you purchased that have instilled that level of trust?

Maytag is a "trusted brand". Would you have bought the drills had they been branded Maytag?


Gotta go with JC on this one, If i were buying say a bike then i would trust Kawasaki, buying cutting tools i would trust in Sandvik/dormer etc as they are all well known in that field Siemens build some of the largest ships in the world but i wouldn't buy Siemens drill bits as its not their field of expertise, just like i wouldn't buy an end-mill made by sony. With that said as mentioned above so many companies do produce a "budget" line of tools and equipment which is manufactured to a lower price range to suit a lower market, some people arn't as fortunate as to be able to afford better quality, when i started out in business i was buying the cheap sets simply because i couldn't afford Dormer at the time, they worked with a bit of re-grinding but when one went past it use i bought Dormer to replace it now im fortunate enough to be able to buy Dormer stuff outright and i do so, you wont catch me buying any drill set for $5 or $20 for my workshop. A set like you bought here would cost say 10 to 15'ish depending on where you get it, the same in dormer will be twice that. but you get the quality.

anyway rant mode off....:rolleyes:

Ausserdog
02-29-2008, 02:16 PM
While I understand Evan's annoyance at this issue of a name brand not living up to expectaion, I have a question.

Is there ANY brand of general merchandise that people here "know" is automatically good and virtually without flaws?

My personal feeling is that NO name brand can be trusted all the time anymore, period. Many CEO's and Boards of Directors are raping companies for their own profit, the rest of us be damned. I do NOT expect them to honor their commitments nor pay homage to the things that made their companies successfull and/or great. There are some exceptions of course, but they seem to me to be in the minority. It is truly a sad state of affairs.

When looking at any prospective purchase, caveat emptor.

SDL
02-29-2008, 02:47 PM
I too have to agree with Evan on this one.
Kawasaki, although mostly known to the general public for it's line of recreational equipment, is actually one of the most respected names in fields as diverse as aerospace, ship building, and heavy equipment.
http://www.khi.co.jp/products/index_e.html

Not sure but I believe it is one of the largest super tanker builders of the world. Also their line of heavy equipment is sold world wide.

I too would have been influenced by the brand name. One does not expect an organization with the credibility and reputation of Kawasaki or GM to sell and soil the brand identity by affixing their logo on such substandard products.

Not sure if it applies to Kawasaki but most big Japanese groups were broken up by the Americans after WWII. As an example Mitsubishi is many differnt companies but all use the 3 diamond logo.

Steve Larner

BadDog
02-29-2008, 02:51 PM
Is there ANY brand of general merchandise that people here "know" is automatically good and virtually without flaws?

My personal feeling is that NO name brand can be trusted all the time anymore, period. Many CEO's and Boards of Directors are raping companies for their own profit, the rest of us be damned. I do NOT expect them to honor their commitments nor pay homage to the things that made their companies successfull and/or great. There are some exceptions of course, but they seem to me to be in the minority. It is truly a sad state of affairs.

When looking at any prospective purchase, caveat emptor.

<ding><ding><ding> We have a winner!

This is exactly what I've observed over and over. Having worked closely with some of these college educated MBA morons who have NO clue in their head that didn't get spoon fed from a book, the guys making major decisions for huge corporations, these guys are the worst of the worst. I saw it long before all the Enron and other stuff made the news, and in my opinion, that bunch are worse than the lawyers and politicians everyone hates. If I hear one more MBA type talk about "leveraging our brand recognition to improve profits by bringing in high-margin goods priced and a premium just by sticking our name on it", I may have to kill 'im.

BTW, anyone remember when I said something similar quite a while back about Starrett and some other "darling" brands (Jacobs/Danaher was one) and their "brand leveraging" activities, but got flamed for disrespecting "Solid American Companies..."?

Evan
02-29-2008, 03:36 PM
I think there is another undercurrent operating here in this thread. I didn't realize it and it had nothing to do with why I posted this but it became obvious when I was thinking about it in the shop this morning. It's a case of shoot the messenger because you don't like the message. The US arm of Kawasaki is the company responsible for the licensing agreement and you can bet they didn't run it by the home office in Japan first either. This is a prime example of what is wrong in the US and why the manufacturing sector has been decimated. There are people here that are very uncomfortable with that and maybe even slightly ashamed over it.




If it was a "trusted brand", what other Kawaski branded cutting tools have you purchased that have instilled that level of trust?

Maytag is a "trusted brand". Would you have bought the drills had they been branded Maytag?

There is a line of Asian lathes that are branded Cadillac. They are a good quality machine, but I sincerely doubt that you would purchase one with the assumption they had anything to do with Cadillac automobiles or General Motors.

Kawasaki is a city in Japan, as well as a relatively common Japanese name. It's use does not necessarily relate to Kawasaki motorcycles. Had you turned the package over to verify the origin, Made in China would have been immediately evident.
So what? I don't care if it is made in China. I have many satisfactory products that are made in China as do you. Why should I suspect drill bits with the Kawasaki brand to be garbage? Kawasaki is not just a motorcycle manufacturer, they also make nearly anything related to industry and drill bits would be not the least bit surprising. Had I turned the package over it would have simply confirmed to me that it was indeed the Kawasaki corporation that the brand referred to.

" Kawasaki is a city in Japan, as well as a relatively common Japanese name."

Yes, so what?

" Maytag is a "trusted brand". Would you have bought the drills had they been branded Maytag?"

Probably not. I am not aware that Maytag is in tool business. Kawasaki is. Kawasaki Heavy Industries is a prominent industrial conglomerate. They make many different products including among other things a line of consumer power tools including power drills as well as industrial robots. Drill bits would be expected, not a suspicious surprise.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/kawa2.jpg

sconisbee
02-29-2008, 04:29 PM
the kawasaki powertools are generic rebranded chinese import stuff, same as the B&Q house brand stuff over here.....oh and i couldnt care less if its an american issue because its the american branch, cause im not american, but i do know that a quality cordless drill in the "heavy duty" range is gunna cost a whole lot more than $119, try getting a bosch for that (and i mean the blue industrial range) speaking of which bosch also put thier name on made in china goods, the green stuff, the stuff they sell for diy'ers that dont need metal gearboxes in the drills etc. its all about market aim, they are aiming those drills at a cheaper market thus it doesnt matter if the drills arnt so good, bet they are fine for wood and the occational soft metal job. Dormers Jobber drills are TiN coated at the tips but they sure dont make a big point about advertising Titanium on the boxes.... its all about getting the lil guy to part with cash for tools that will suit him/her. in our position we know better and generally will pay more for quality!

Anyway im bowing out of this before it becomes mud slinging:D

topct
02-29-2008, 04:34 PM
Been a weird world from the get go. Yamaha of Japan? has built/branded everything from concert pianos to motorcycles to snow skis.

Kawasaki power tools were sold locally by Pep Boys, lasted about 90 days. Nothing but bad news, end of story.

The good, the bad, the ugly now seems to be the new 'Murican Way.

G

Those power tools were of a very poor quality. I am thinking they have been removed from the market. The drill bits would have been part of that product line. But why didn't they pull them also?

I suspect that they counted the beans and decided to just let them fall where they might, and just fade away. To bad as it's left more than one consumer disapointed for sure.

What's that line? "One dissatisfied customer is worth ten lost sales".

JCHannum
02-29-2008, 05:15 PM
The only undercurrent is that the emptor didn't caveat and he got bit.

Doc Nickel
02-29-2008, 05:38 PM
]Probably not. I am not aware that Maytag is in tool business. Kawasaki is. Kawasaki Heavy Industries is a prominent industrial conglomerate. They make many different products including among other things a line of consumer power tools including power drills as well as industrial robots. Drill bits would be expected, not a suspicious surprise.

-"Consumer power tools" where you can get a "20 piece" drill set for $39.95. That's not exactly a hallmark of quality. Those same tools molded in orange are Harbor Freight and Northern Hydraulics staples these days. Batteries can essentially only be found through HF and NH, and the quality of the tools makes Ryobi look good.

Again, you fell for marketing over substance, and want to blame somebody else for it.

Yes, I agree it probably wasn't the best idea for Kawasaki to license cheap crap tools like that, but don't blame them when you can't be bothered to read the label.

Doc.

JCHannum
02-29-2008, 05:52 PM
Here are the consumer power tools. They are not made by Kawasaki Heavy Industries, but by Alltrade;

http://www.alltradetoolstore.com/servlet/the-Kawasaki%E2%84%A2-Power-Tools-and-Accessories/Categories

Testimony to the high quality of the products ca nbe found here;

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/recalls04/2007/kawasaki_tools.html

oldtiffie
02-29-2008, 06:34 PM
Quality control seems to be the issue here.

There is nothing wrong with "out-sourcing" at all. It is no different to "sub-contracting" where the Head Contractor is responsible to the client for the work that he provides to the client. It is up to the Head Contractor to manage and take responsibility for the work provided to him by his sub-contractors that he forwards to the Client. The Building and Construction Industries - and others - have this down to a fine art here in OZ.

Vehicle manufacturers are the same. There are many others.

We have the $2 shops in OZ as well. Provided you know your price for the risk you are prepared to take, then all should be OK.

It is all about making sure that you make an informed decision. The onus is on the buyer in most cases - irrespective of Legislation etc.

I have found that I can rely on "Vertex" from my main supplier here in OZ. It seems that "Phase 11" is similar in the USA. Sure there is a premium to pay - but is it well worth it. Both "Vertex" and "Phase 11" (so far as I know) source their stuff from China and are very fussy about the quality they they then on-sell. Neither (again, so far as I am aware) makes much or very little of what they sell under their own brand name.

I don't know if Seig (China) makes all their own product or whether it out-sources some of it or not. Frankly, I don't care. I have no reason to not believe John Stevenson who had been through the Seig factories and development facilities. He is very enthusiastic as regards Seig's quality.

I have had great success with CDCO and Littlemachineshop in the USA as regards quality and service - with both the China and USA made stuff they sell. Remember I am in OZ so there is quite a postage cost and some difficulty in "returning" stuff - which has never happened.

My main supplier here in OZ sell mainly China stuff to the "Trade" and relies on and gets lots of return business. In the rare event that I have a problem, there is no problem with returns and replacements.

In this "food chain" everyone is relying on the Quality Control/Assurance of the previous ones further back/along the chain.

Sure, there is a premium to pay, but it sure is good insurance.

All of this is no different in principle to buying stuff in the main street or Super-market or Mall in your town.

As I've said several times over time, I do have some "niggling" short-comings in some of my "China" stuff (which I would not get from "Big name" Japanese companies here), but they are easily "fixable" and even at the "as bought" stage are quite ready to be used in the shop.

My shop is only a "light", "occasional use" "hobby" shop" so I don't need the "heavy" stuff that would be the case in a commercial shop.

HTRN
02-29-2008, 10:26 PM
Out of Curiousity, I looked up how much Chicago Latrobe 13pce(1/16" -1/4" by 64ths) set is at MSC.

$26. (http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=2132856&PMT4NO=38772710)

Next time Evan, you might want to order from Known sources for good tools.:rolleyes:


HTRN

J Tiers
02-29-2008, 11:00 PM
I agree that the "emptor" didn't do the "caveat" thing......

But, there is one other point that should be made......

THE BRAND DOES NOT GUARANTEE QUALITY. THE QUALITY GUARANTEES THE BRAND.

Anyone can , and it seems everyone DOES, stick their name on some low priced and crummy chinese import.

Obviously, the brand does not guarantee quality of a product the brandholder didn't make, and in fact have never even seen. The brandholder does not own, control, or make any decisions at, the factory that made the product. All they see are the boxes, and the few that they open up, assuming they do ANY checking at all.

In most cases, they do no checking for a peripheral licensed product, because they actually have nothing whatever to do with it, not even the warehousing. It is the product line of ANOTHER company, who licenses the right to call their OWN products by the licensing companies brandname.

So the gut reaction to never trust another Kawasaki product is irrational and even demented. The item in question is NOT a "Kawasaki product".

If you decide not to trust another LICENSED product, that would be rational and intelligent, especially if you make a promise to yourself to not trust the pretty gold colored chinese drills.

Good quality establishes a brand. Good quality maintains a brand. But the brand does not do the job, the tool does. If the tool is worthless the brand is worthless as well. So the brand is not a good indicator.

Evan
02-29-2008, 11:02 PM
Why does anybody think that I am complaining about the tools? I couldn't care less about $5 dollars. I give up on you guys, you haven't a shred of understanding of what the issues are. No wonder the US is in such deep trouble.

Most of you need to go back and read my posts for the first time.

dp
02-29-2008, 11:10 PM
Why does anybody think that I am complaining about the tools? I couldn't care less about $5 dollars. I give up on you guys, you haven't a shred of understanding of what the issues are. No wonder the US is in such deep trouble.

First Japan and now the US. All because of a shoddy drill set and some misplaced trust. Ok - I'm over it :)

Seriously, Evan - this isn't worth taking too seriously. There really is a market for the kind of tools you bought and the buyers probably think it's good enough for their purpose. I for one am glad there are cheap versions of tools. I will buy a drain snake each time I need one, and when I'm done with it I toss the crappy thing out rather that have it rusting away in my shop. Good enough for a plumber? No, of course not. But they work well once and are lots cheaper than a plumber.

mochinist
02-29-2008, 11:11 PM
I too would have been influenced by the brand name. Then you are an easy mark

mochinist
02-29-2008, 11:12 PM
I say boycott Japan till this sh7t is fixed.

steverice
02-29-2008, 11:16 PM
The guy that did this name is Glenn Bothwell, he works at Kawasaki in California.

He licensed the product for Kawasaki.

949-770-0400 call him up.

Evan
02-29-2008, 11:20 PM
One last time. This thread is about the erosion of brand quality, in particular Japanese brands. The way things are going there will be no way to judge what products are worth buying and which to avoid. You cannot always tell what is well or poorly made by looking at the package. In fact, you can't tell with yellow drill bits made in China. But, that isn't the point. The point is that if the majority of major brands fall into this trap we will be left with mostly garbage to buy. The Marching Morons by Kornbluth is becoming a reality.

mochinist
02-29-2008, 11:23 PM
Whats this thread about, again?

Evan
02-29-2008, 11:26 PM
FuQ
............

dp
02-29-2008, 11:27 PM
Erosion of brand is important only to people who thought branding was important to begin with. That candle went out years ago. It used to be that a good reputation was important. What's important now is the bottom line. This is a long baseline trend. Not that I think Kawasaki USA ever had a good reputation - there's not much old Kawasaki rolling stock out there because the stuff starts to rot as soon as the weather turns.