PDA

View Full Version : Tilting tables: Enco vs. CDCO



DICKEYBIRD
03-03-2008, 09:54 AM
I found some fairly serious errors in my homemade Tilting Angle Table and I think it's time to purchase a factory made one.

This one from Enco http://www.use-enco.com/CGI/INSRIT?PMAKA=418-4200&PMPXNO=950508&PARTPG=INLMK3 looks good for the money and I can get free shipping with the purchase of a few more goodies.

This one from CDCO http://www.cdcotools.com/index.php for about the same price shows a crank handle which I assume is for a worm drive mechanism. Edit: Oops, you can't link direct to a specific item. Go to "Machine Tool Toolings," then "Milling Machine Toolings" and scroll down.

Has anybody seen both of them in the flesh? Is the worm drive a really great thing to have? By the look of the 2 pictures, the fit & finish is probably better on the Enco unit and that's the one I'm leaning towards. If the worm drive is really needed, I may pony the extra $$ up for the Enco unit that has it.

Whut sez ya'll?

JCHannum
03-03-2008, 10:26 AM
I haven't seen the CDCO table, but do own an Enco. It is made in India, and best described as adequate. The finish is not too bad and it is pretty straight.

Don't count on the graduations for a great degree of accuracy, but they are not on most vices and other similar tooling.

I don't think I would pay a premium for the worm drive feature, you usually tap them into position and lock them up. It would not add much, and I doubt it would be of any use in actively moving the table while milling.

aboard_epsilon
03-03-2008, 11:26 AM
think that type you put in your links will not go to 90 degrees

buy this type here


and you have tilting table plus 90 degree angle plate all in one

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v190/aboard_epsilon/rover%20420/setup.jpg

all the best.mark

pcarpenter
03-03-2008, 12:18 PM
I have one of the 7x10 non-worm tables from Enco. I have yet to use it, but it looks well fininshed.

There was a thread here a while back where someone purchased one of the worm models and recommended against it. I don't think its a more smooth adjustment, and as such, it may make more sense to spend the extra dollars buying a larger one without the worm.

Paul

BobWarfield
03-03-2008, 12:19 PM
Wow, that's a really nice table Mark. I've been thinking of grabbing one of the imports since having difficulties machine a 45 degree edge on my disc sander table, but now you've spoiled me to want that table. It's a monster!

Cheers,

BW

DICKEYBIRD
03-03-2008, 01:26 PM
I don't think I would pay a premium for the worm drive feature, you usually tap them into position and lock them up.Thanks Jim. How does it lock up? I assume you tighten a couple bolts down but I can't see them in the picture.

Are they tightened through the tee-slots? If so, that would make it difficult to re-adjust an angle with work attached. I'm sure this is a duhh question but I've never seen one first hand.:)

Mark I really like the one you've got. I'm going to look around & see if I can locate one.

lazlo
03-03-2008, 01:46 PM
There was a thread here a while back where someone purchased one of the worm models and recommended against it. I don't think its a more smooth adjustment, and as such, it may make more sense to spend the extra dollars buying a larger one without the worm.

That was me :)

Send it back? (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=24049[/url])

I bought the tilting angle table with the worm drive, and I really wish I had gotten the "plain" version of the same table -- the table itself is actually decent (good cast iron, no voids,...), but the worm drive is really, really primitive, and it has a ton of backlash. So much backlash that the table moves around as your trying to lock it, and you really need to steady a heavy workpiece, or it will drop down hard.

One other minor issue: the worm mechanism blocks the tilt on one side, so you only get 70 or so tilt. You still get the full tilt on the other side...

By the way, if you read through that thread, a plastic packing flap had covered the corner of the table top while it was being coated in grease, so I had a really deep triangular-shaped rust gouge in the top of the table.

Enco customer service was great, and sent me 4 replacement tables (one after the other), but all the other tables had casting voids, or bad iron, or missing threads on the worm... I ended up keeping the rusted table :rolleyes:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/img_0002.jpg?t=1178381734

JCHannum
03-03-2008, 01:49 PM
The locking bolts are underneath the table and not easily accessable. They are kind of typical Indian non-size, and I would replace them if I used the table more than once or twice a year. As it is, I tell myself that I will do it before I use it the next time.

I have had a couple of the tables like Mark posted and they are heavy duty. If you have the room, they are much better.

lazlo
03-03-2008, 01:51 PM
I have had a couple of the tables like Mark posted and they are heavy duty. If you have the room, they are much better.

I wish you were around when I asked about getting the Enco tilting table last year Jim! :)

Mark, where did you get your table? Is it the Phase II tilting table, or is that a NOS Western table? It looks pretty nice!

JCHannum
03-03-2008, 02:00 PM
I have a Rockwell mill, and the disadvantage of Mark's table is that it moves the work farther off center the farther it tilts, and you can run out of room pretty quickly on a small machine. The Enco style remains fairly well centered.

aboard_epsilon
03-03-2008, 02:23 PM
I wish you were around when I asked about getting the Enco tilting table last year Jim! :)

Mark, where did you get your table? Is it the Phase II tilting table, or is that a NOS Western table? It looks pretty nice!

it was off ebay a couple of years ago
38

its made by NORVIC in england........

don't think they exist any more.......or have been merged and now under new name .

will show you my other tilting table one day in the future ....

it has a leadscrew...handle and quadrant to do the adjustment and is as smooth as silk

all the best.markj

Your Old Dog
03-03-2008, 04:43 PM
I have the Enco 5x7 with the worm gear. I prefer the worm gear as it makes setting the angle much easier then bumping it back and forth. Understand the castings aren't like velvet so if you wanted to move it 2 or 3 degrees you got some bumping to do and then hope you don't go past where you want to be. The worm allows me to sneak up on it and then lock everything down.

BobWarfield
03-03-2008, 08:33 PM
I'm almost tempted to construct a "tombstone" style arrangement with a rotab and tailstock. It would be a lot more trouble to build and set up than a tilting table, but it sure would be slick when you were done.

Here's a classic CNC 4th axis tombstone:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/Tools/4thAxisTombstone.jpg

Replace the CNC servo-driven axis on the right with your rotab and you have the arrangement I'm thinking of. Now you can mount whatever you want to on the tooling plate, dial in any arbitrary angle easily, even do multiple angles, and with the tailstock, it should be reasonably rigid. A lot of folks would mount the whole setup on a tooling plate like this one so it drops onto the table and you dial the whole thing in as a unit.

Evan, you have the makings right now with your new tailstock and that 4th axis/lathe attachment. You'd just need the tooling plate set up to be rigidly mounted. That's done with a flange like that shown in the pic. You want that flange out the full diameter of your rotab and secured to all available tool slots.

Hmmm, gotta ponder more!

j king
03-03-2008, 09:29 PM
Ill add my experience with enco's table.I bought one well over a year ago.I received it and it looked ok.I put it away.About 4 months ago I had a job for it.(finally).I set it up on the mill and started to clamp a sine block on it.the dang T slots were all over on size. A t-nut wouldnt pass thru the slot to the other side.it was off over .04 thou.I need a cutter to recut it.It was WAY too long to send it back.Dang!

jimmstruk
03-03-2008, 09:47 PM
Same story as j king. I need a cutter to true up t slots, but the table worked well otherwise. JIM

oldtiffie
03-03-2008, 11:21 PM
I have the 7 x 5 unit as discussed.

I generally agree with lazlo with his assessment (quick - some-body get him the smelling salts and fresh air!!).

The worm-wheel is poorly made and fitted and so there is a lot of "slop" - but it is usable. It is required to resist the inevitable "flop" as off-centre work makes the table "fall/nod" forward.

I would not trust the calibrations either.

I set mine with vernier or digital protractors - not worth the effort is setting up a sine bar - for most of my work.

It is absolutely essential that the table top and base (where it sits on the mill/drill) are flat and parallel. I fly-cut mine although I could have surface ground it.

Also make sure that the centre of the "tilt" (ie the "partial cylinder") on the bottom part is parallel to the side and back faces as well as the base surface. Reasons are that you may set the angle plate up using a machinists square (surprisingly accurate) on the machine table. Also if these axis are "out" you will generate a third plane on the top surface and you will be well and truly into "compound angles" which really do need to be avoided if possible as they are difficult and a real PITA.

The check is to put a Dial indicator on the tilted surface and transit/move the mill "X" or "Y" handwheel to move across the tilt/slant. There should be no/zero delection on the indicator. "Twist/turn" the angle plate on the mill table until it is set right.

This is a real "head-scatcher" that is hard to find and easy to do.

FWIW, the exact same situation applies if your protractor or sine bar is not truly square to the axis of tilt of the angle plate - yep - "compound angles" - again.

I found that the 5 x 7 was a PITA as it is hard to mount most stuff on as on a medium sized mill (mine is a HF-45) clamping can be a problem if packing etc. needs to be used. I wish I had bought the larger unit instead of the samaller (7 x 5) unit.

The clamping of the top table to the bottom cylinder is not the best, but is adequate if taken carefully and not pushed too hard. A slip can be a real problem.

There were only 2 clamping slots in the base, any more clamping will require straps and packing.

I bought this from a used machinery dealer on the spur of the moment instead of buying "Vertex" from my usual dealer - big mistake.

The reason I machined my faces was that I just do not trust the grinders or the surface flatness on these items. They look good - as said - but can be well out of expected flatness. The same applied to some angle plates I bought but I was going to re-machine them anyway so all turned out OK.

So, is OK if treated with care and caution.

oldtiffie
03-03-2008, 11:53 PM
I have a Rockwell mill, and the disadvantage of Mark's table is that it moves the work farther off center the farther it tilts, and you can run out of room pretty quickly on a small machine. The Enco style remains fairly well centered.


Dead right Jim.

The main reason I bought the "Enco" type one with the worm and wheel was just as you suggest.

I did a have a China? (India more likely I suspect) similar to Mark's unit. It had all of the faults as in my previous post plus it only had one/single "though" bolt that ran thought the pillars on both the fixed/top and moving/base parts and could not clamp tight enough to overcome the torque applied by the job or machine.

I junked it as it was not worth repairing as as soon as one problem was fixed it caused at least one and usually two or more others. No, it wasn't a "Vertex" item either.

As Mark says his unit it was made by "NORVIC" in England/ UK which will set it well above the pack in all respects.
Further, I'd guess that Mark's unit/item has 2 bolts through the centre and therefore much better for clamping the "tilt".

oldtiffie
03-04-2008, 12:15 AM
I'm almost tempted to construct a "tombstone" style arrangement with a rotab and tailstock. It would be a lot more trouble to build and set up than a tilting table, but it sure would be slick when you were done.

Here's a classic CNC 4th axis tombstone:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/Tools/4thAxisTombstone.jpg

Replace the CNC servo-driven axis on the right with your rotab and you have the arrangement I'm thinking of. Now you can mount whatever you want to on the tooling plate, dial in any arbitrary angle easily, even do multiple angles, and with the tailstock, it should be reasonably rigid. A lot of folks would mount the whole setup on a tooling plate like this one so it drops onto the table and you dial the whole thing in as a unit.

Evan, you have the makings right now with your new tailstock and that 4th axis/lathe attachment. You'd just need the tooling plate set up to be rigidly mounted. That's done with a flange like that shown in the pic. You want that flange out the full diameter of your rotab and secured to all available tool slots.

Hmmm, gotta ponder more!

Thanks Bob.

That is basically an item that I have on my "to do" list.

I don't like tilting rotary tables or dividing heads if I can avoid it as they are too expensive and are limited as regards the loads they they can carry.

I have both a 6" and 8" "Vertex" rotabs which are excellent.

My idea is to in effect mount a 90 deg angle plate on my rotab with the out-board end support on the rotab tail-stock - pretty well as you have shown.

The angle plate will be a 1/2" thick MS disc bolted to my rotab face-plate or the mounting for the face-plate (haven't decided yet). The "flat" "arm" will be either 4" x 3" RHS or channel section welded to the disk and the outer end will have a 4" x 3" plate welded to it to be centre-drilled/bored for the tail-stock.

I will machine the top face of the 4 x 3 RHS/channel section and fit a multi-drilled and tapped plate - probably aluminium - which will also be machined true to my mill table - as you shown in your pic.

I was and am still pis*ed off with myself and the tilting angle-plates as discussed. It was all my own doing and fault too - again.

This set-up will give me the accuracy, rigidity and clamping of the rotab and tail-stock with none of the limitations of the tilting angle plates.

My intention is the have the top/clamping/work face to be at or below the rotab centre-height so as to maximise the vertical clearance between the work and the mill quill and drills and cutters etc.

[Edit 1]
Concept sketch completed and inserted.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Sketches/Rotab_as_angle-plate1.jpg

[End edit]

lazlo
03-04-2008, 10:26 AM
You know, Tiffie and Bob have a great idea: I've got a nice Ellis dividing head and tailstock, and the 4th axis tombstone is just a fixture plate mounted between centers.

Tiffie, a tweak/simplification I would make to your drawing would be to drive a Brown & Sharp #9 arbor (the spindle taper on most small dividing heads) into a press-fit hole in the fixture plate, and drill a 60 into the opposite end, and get rid of the square plates on the ends.

So you'd have a fixture plate with a B&S arbor on one end and a 60 female center on the other end. Pop it into the dividing head and tailstock, and you've got an infinitely-variable angle plate.

DICKEYBIRD
03-04-2008, 11:35 AM
Wow, such wonderful ideas! I love this place.:)

Great idea and sketch there 'Tiffie! You obviously have some artistic talent & training.

I'm going to take the easy way out and order an Enco unit. Can you fellows that had the issue with the Tee-slots measure the size of the slot? I've been needing to get a cutter anyway and will just order the correct one along with the table. That'll guarantee the slots in mine will be correct.;)

BobWarfield
03-04-2008, 11:41 AM
Great sketch Oldtiffie!

I made a few more notes on this idea over on my blog:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/index.htm

You may have to scroll down a bit. Basically, I think a lathe-style tailstock may be less optimal for a tombstone. Something more like this Haas setup will be more rigid:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/Geof4Axis.jpg

Build that style using a wheel bearing or tapered roller of good side and provide some real meat to lock down that end of the tombstone.

I would also look at a serious brake that you can lock down so its real solid when you're cutting. Commercial tables often use face gears for this purpose:

http://www.cnccookbook.com/img/OthersProjects/FaceGears.jpg

It limits your choice of "stopping angles" to the gear teeth unless you have a clever arrangement, but it locks up solid. Given the size shaft you have to work with on a beefier tailstock, you could probably make one heck of a clamp that would lock down solid too. Lots of surface area for grip.

Lastly, were it me, I would be tempted to build a square tombstone of about 5" sides. I think I'd build the sides from 1-2" steel and Tig weld the edges and Tig mounting flanges on the ends with appropriate bolt circles to match up with the rotab and tailstock. You could also use 7xxx aluminum if you prefer, but the steel would be nicer.

I would then fill the core with Epoxy Granite to dampen it. I'd take this "billet", and machine it true on the mill. Lastly, I'd drill the tooling holes. I like an alternating pattern of threaded holes with holes that are precision reamed for dowel pins. This gives you total repeatability for positioning on the plate.

I system like that would open the door for a lot of interesting setups. It would require a fair amount of Z-travel, so some mills probably wouldn't work out too well with it.

Eventually I'll build the silly thing I'm describing. Too many irons in the fire at present. You'll get there first Tiffie, or someone else reading all this.

Cheers,

BW

Carld
03-04-2008, 01:15 PM
I have the 7x10 worm drive Enco table and while it is not as smooth as glass it does work well and I have used it several times and like it. For the money it works for me. Since I don't do work for NASA or GE turbine division I don't have a problem. I can set the angle I want and it stays there unless I do something stupid and even the best tables would have a problem with that.

oldtiffie
03-04-2008, 06:53 PM
I have the 7x10 worm drive Enco table and while it is not as smooth as glass it does work well and I have used it several times and like it. For the money it works for me. Since I don't do work for NASA or GE turbine division I don't have a problem. I can set the angle I want and it stays there unless I do something stupid and even the best tables would have a problem with that.

Thanks Carld.

That is a good "heads up", "reality check" and caution to the "tear-ar*ses".

"Hastening slowly" will more often than not get you there just as quick - if time is an issue - with a whole lot less stress, damage, cost or delay.

As you say, those tilting tables are quite adequate if treated with respect.

Silverback
01-12-2011, 02:47 PM
Thanks Bob.

That is basically an item that I have on my "to do" list.

I don't like tilting rotary tables or dividing heads if I can avoid it as they are too expensive and are limited as regards the loads they they can carry.

I have both a 6" and 8" "Vertex" rotabs which are excellent.

My idea is to in effect mount a 90 deg angle plate on my rotab with the out-board end support on the rotab tail-stock - pretty well as you have shown.

The angle plate will be a 1/2" thick MS disc bolted to my rotab face-plate or the mounting for the face-plate (haven't decided yet). The "flat" "arm" will be either 4" x 3" RHS or channel section welded to the disk and the outer end will have a 4" x 3" plate welded to it to be centre-drilled/bored for the tail-stock.

I will machine the top face of the 4 x 3 RHS/channel section and fit a multi-drilled and tapped plate - probably aluminium - which will also be machined true to my mill table - as you shown in your pic.

I was and am still pis*ed off with myself and the tilting angle-plates as discussed. It was all my own doing and fault too - again.

This set-up will give me the accuracy, rigidity and clamping of the rotab and tail-stock with none of the limitations of the tilting angle plates.

My intention is the have the top/clamping/work face to be at or below the rotab centre-height so as to maximise the vertical clearance between the work and the mill quill and drills and cutters etc.

[Edit 1]
Concept sketch completed and inserted.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Rotab_as_angle-plate1.jpg

[End edit]

does that sketch still exist somewhere? I'm looking to do something similar and have been searching for ideas and ran across this thread.

lazlo
01-12-2011, 05:50 PM
I haven't seen the CDCO table, but do own an Enco. It is made in India, and best described as adequate. The finish is not too bad and it is pretty straight.

Don't count on the graduations for a great degree of accuracy, but they are not on most vices and other similar tooling.

I don't think I would pay a premium for the worm drive feature, you usually tap them into position and lock them up. It would not add much.

Send it back? (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=24049)

I highly recommend not getting the worm drive. It limits the rotation to 15 on one side, and the worm and wheel mechanism is so crudely fashioned it's worthless.

masimec
01-12-2011, 08:42 PM
I very like mine, this is the worm version. This is easier to ajust when you have weight on it! It measure 9X12 and won't take one below this size because it's should be difficult to clamp parts on it.... You can see it if you click on this picture...

http://i981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/Masimec/th_100_0773.jpg (http://s981.photobucket.com/albums/ae293/Masimec/?action=view&current=100_0773.jpg)

Martin

lane
01-12-2011, 08:52 PM
Here is mine I built . It is a copy of one Kurt use to build . Theirs had 3 t slots . Mine has a bunch of 3/8 taped holes.
http://sites.google.com/site/machinistsite/TWO-BUDDIES/lanes-home/tooling/LPlate2.JPG?attredirects=0

lazlo
01-12-2011, 08:54 PM
Lane, a little help on your picture:

http://2271230184652140916-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/machinistsite/TWO-BUDDIES/lanes-home/tooling/LPlate2.JPG?attachauth=ANoY7cqegA4dvU0mca-7FObH6P0Q7Yv6c2Tn1ntpRpBh6S27t3W_UxZn8YRwbmEjtUdIM Cwd5dpUBYLYlchZYCE8vSRXVheTA6jEdGwtF5GEyUH8PU06UqQ-ksel0umaoXhErtGD_nYJm2fQSKIyJDD7AunaCBN-fT--64uy6X3-NiEcHhwIuWtRlyy4e2Fb3eTZPmKfYdlwmcjP-ixMfkif5w04748hVUFdeG9_4m1VHV3MUQOQayCCqGeaBOVduGr _mQjJd411&attredirects=0

Are the end-caps weldments?

OK, I give up on the picture link. Google sites is adding a nasty session link to the image, even if I surf it directly from "Two Buddies."

oldtiffie
01-12-2011, 09:06 PM
does that sketch still exist somewhere? I'm looking to do something similar and have been searching for ideas and ran across this thread.

It seems that I had deleted the image while "house-keeping" and re-organising my PhotoBucket folders.

I have re-scanned and re-posted it.

Here is the pic:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Sketches/Rotab_as_angle-plate1.jpg

platypus2020
01-12-2011, 09:18 PM
the 2 different sized tilt tables I bought from Grizzly, have worked great. lighting is poor, they are not rusty.


jack



http://i805.photobucket.com/albums/yy339/platypus-20/tilttables002x.jpg

lane
01-12-2011, 09:33 PM
Lane, a little help on your picture:

http://2271230184652140916-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/machinistsite/TWO-BUDDIES/lanes-home/tooling/LPlate2.JPG?attachauth=ANoY7cqegA4dvU0mca-7FObH6P0Q7Yv6c2Tn1ntpRpBh6S27t3W_UxZn8YRwbmEjtUdIM Cwd5dpUBYLYlchZYCE8vSRXVheTA6jEdGwtF5GEyUH8PU06UqQ-ksel0umaoXhErtGD_nYJm2fQSKIyJDD7AunaCBN-fT--64uy6X3-NiEcHhwIuWtRlyy4e2Fb3eTZPmKfYdlwmcjP-ixMfkif5w04748hVUFdeG9_4m1VHV3MUQOQayCCqGeaBOVduGr _mQjJd411&attredirects=0

Are the end-caps weldments?

OK, I give up on the picture link. Google sites is adding a nasty session link to the image, even if I surf it directly from "Two Buddies."
No they were machined out of 3/4x 6x6 angle iron. Their is a article in Projects in metal Feb 1990 on building it . Also in Projects in Metal Book # 2.

oldtiffie
01-12-2011, 09:33 PM
There isn't much wrong with those angle plates with the worm gear.

I had to re-machine my 7" x 5" model as there was 1.0mm (~0.040") out of parallel with the base when the top table was at zero tilt. After I re-machined it, it worked fine.

The only problem was that the 7" x 5" table was too small so I bought the 10" x 7" model and while it needs a bit of re-machining it works fine with the larger table.

Here is my 7" x 5" and 10" x " tilting tables:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Seig_X3_mill/SeigX3_15.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Seig_X3_mill/SeigX3_16.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Seig_X3_mill/SeigX3_19.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Seig_X3_mill/SeigX3_24.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Seig_X3_mill/SeigX3_25.jpg

I have found the worm drive to be a big help as I use it to lower the top plate (easy) and not to raise it (hard) with a job on it.

They are very good for those difficult (double/compound jobs).

I use them on my HF-45 and Sieg mills as well as my grinders.

Good clamping and support is the key to success with those angle plates.

lazlo
01-12-2011, 10:23 PM
No they were machined out of 3/4x 6x6 angle iron. Their is a article in Projects in metal Feb 1990 on building it . Also in Projects in Metal Book # 2.

Oh - LOL! I have both of those :) Thanks Lane!

dp
01-13-2011, 12:34 AM
It was mentioned earlier about how these tables move the work out from under the quill when tipping. I've explored reversing mine, putting the table on the bottom. The work still moves but much less so. Here is a series of pictures that demonstrate.

http://metalworkingathome.com/images/tilttable02.jpg

That looked like a crack on the surface there so I went back down stairs to check and it's just a mark from sliding it around.

http://metalworkingathome.com/images/tilttable01.jpg

http://metalworkingathome.com/images/tilttable03.jpg

I did quite a bit of shop work to make this a better, smoother acting table and it's really quite nice now. No worm drive, though.

oldtiffie
01-13-2011, 01:35 AM
There are only two clamps on the arc of the tilting table and if I think they need assistance I use machinists jacks as well as props or struts from the mill table.

The worm drive to the tilting table is a real bonus as the centre of balance moves away from the centre of rotation of the tilting table. I use the worm drive to control and stop the tilt where and when needed. I don't use the worm drive as a jack to raise a substantial load as the helix angle of the worm is quite large so that there is not a lot of mechanical advantage to raise a load. I use machinists jacks and porta-power sets to raise/lower and to finely position a load as the angle of tilt increases.

A tilting table really reduces the working envelope in terms of available "X", "Y" and "Z" space and travel.

But having said that, when they a (only?) viable solution to or for an awkward job they are hard to beat and you will be glad you have them.

Vices with a rotating base clamped to an angle plate can do very well too but care is needed as they do not take heavy-handedness or abuse easily:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vise/Vise9.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Vise/Vise2.jpg

I have two mills with tilting heads and l leave them trammed and only tilt them as a last resort/option.

BadDog
01-13-2011, 02:11 AM
I've got one of the half-cylinder arc based tables most recently shown by dp. It's also a bit of a PIA (in addition to the offset issue he mentioned) because the locking studs are under the edge and can be a real pain to get to sometimes. I really like his ides of flipping it, except (I think) it would then be limited to about 45* or so rather than it's current 90* each way. I got it because it appeared to be far more rigid than the common "bolt for a hinge between 2 plates" variety. However, with a recent huge discount and free shipping from Enco, I did order one of those for convenient use when absolute rigidity isn't necessary.

dp
01-13-2011, 02:18 AM
My table has a maximum swing of 50 and even that requires putting spacers under the base as the table hits the mill table. Without spacers it swings just 45 each way. This is the model I have:

http://www.grizzly.com/products/G5758

And here's the thread from 2008.

http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=31269

BadDog
01-13-2011, 02:20 AM
My table has a maximum swing of 50 and even that requires putting spacers under the base as the table hits the mill table. Without spacers it swings just 45 each way.
You know, you're right, not sure why I was thinking 90*, but that would be pretty much impossible given it's sort of "half pipe" base. Up too late, should just go to bed rather than posting...

JoeLee
01-13-2011, 08:31 AM
Ill add my experience with enco's table.I bought one well over a year ago.I received it and it looked ok.I put it away.About 4 months ago I had a job for it.(finally).I set it up on the mill and started to clamp a sine block on it.the dang T slots were all over on size. A t-nut wouldnt pass thru the slot to the other side.it was off over .04 thou.I need a cutter to recut it.It was WAY too long to send it back.Dang!

I had the same experiance here about 15 years ago when I bought a set of Enco slotted angle plates. They were gauranteed to be acurate within .005. When the wax coated box with all the funny lettering arrived I became very leary about what I might see when I open the box. Every thing was wrapped in an oil soaked burlap.......... I guess that was to keep the contents from rusting while they were stored in the belly of some ship...... Anyway, when I set one of them on the table of my mill it rocked from corner to corner ! and wasn't even close to square. The slots were all way over sized, ranging from .625 to almost .750. The inside of the plates were just a mound of cast iron and almost spherical. I just told Enco to take them back, and don't send me a nother pair.
Ended up buying a good pair of Suburban plates.

JL...................

dalee100
01-13-2011, 09:51 AM
Hi,

I have an Enco 7x10 tilt table that has served very well in a production shop. I used it for machining S7 and S5 punch tooling, (often hardened to 54-57Rc), and special brake dies.

I prefer this style over the one Epsilon has because it's far more rigid and will take far heavier cutting forces. I can routinely take .200" off at 5" to 8" ipm in annealed S7 without chatter. The accuracy of my scale is pretty scary. The first times I used it I checked the angles with the shop Optical Comparator, less than 1/2 degree off. So I quit worrying.

I mostly use it with a plate fixtures I make. They generally have a fence for quick and easy part alignment and are drilled and tapped holes for clamping. Also allows me to sacrifice it if needed.

dalee

lazlo
01-13-2011, 11:19 AM
Oh - LOL! I have both of those :) Thanks Lane!

Wow, 7/8" trunions! Was that because it's what you had, or do you really need that thickness when you have something heavy on the table?

lazlo
01-13-2011, 11:24 AM
I did quite a bit of shop work to make this a better, smoother acting table and it's really quite nice now. No worm drive, though.

The irony on mine is that, if you read that "Send it back?" thread I posted, Enco sent me 3 different replacements, and each was worse than it's predecessor. I ended up stoning and then Scotch-brite'ing off the pitted end, and the casting and fit and finish (aside from the crappy worm drive) is actually quite good, the top is flat, and the T-slots are straight.

I was trying to figure out if there was any straightforward way to re-cut the worm and wheel, but that sounds like a disaster. I'm probably just going to remove the worm drive.

RKW
01-13-2011, 02:13 PM
I intentionally bought the worm drive version since it was a LOT cheaper and worked just as well. I removed the worm drive since it really provide much use anyway. Otherwise it is a nice little tilting table.

QUOTE=lazlo]The irony on mine is that, if you read that "Send it back?" thread I posted, Enco sent me 3 different replacements, and each was worse than it's predecessor. I ended up stoning and then Scotch-brite'ing off the pitted end, and the casting and fit and finish (aside from the crappy worm drive) is actually quite good, the top is flat, and the T-slots are straight.

I was trying to figure out if there was any straightforward way to re-cut the worm and wheel, but that sounds like a disaster. I'm probably just going to remove the worm drive.[/QUOTE]

tlfamm
01-13-2011, 04:19 PM
The irony on mine is that, if you read that "Send it back?" thread I posted, Enco sent me 3 different replacements, and each was worse than it's predecessor.


I must have gotten one of your returns - it would really benefit from resurfacing - maybe in the Spring.

dockrat
01-13-2011, 05:47 PM
I had some of the same problems with my tilting table as a lot have mentioned here, in as much as I could not get the mounting slots to match up to my mill table t-slots, especially at compound angles. I milled out a chunk of 6061 plate I had on hand for the table to fit into. I then turned down a couple of carriage bolts to flatten the heads and counter bored the plate so the bolt heads would be flush and bolted the table to the plate. I can now clamp down on the plate in any location.

http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/Dockrat1/IMGP1525Medium.jpg
http://i253.photobucket.com/albums/hh67/Dockrat1/IMGP1526Medium.jpg

lane
01-13-2011, 08:14 PM
Wow, 7/8" trunions! Was that because it's what you had, or do you really need that thickness when you have something heavy on the table?

When I build something I be-leave in building it so it will last for ever and want wear out. And I like things to be heck for stout.

Silverback
01-13-2011, 09:54 PM
Martin, Jack and anyone else that has one of the larger tables, do you guys think that you could use one of them to hold/machine something like a cylinder head (Looks like a common larger size is 10x12" or so, a cylinder head is typically about 8x19" plus or minus a little, so it wold probably hang over the sides 3-4", I don't see a problem with bolting it down, but I'm not sure if it would be rigid enough)?

Would 2 5x7" ones, one supporting each end be a better solution? My biggest worry about that is that I'd be very surprised if 2 of even the same table were close enough to not result in a significant error between sides making setup difficult...

Thoughts?

Silverback
01-13-2011, 09:59 PM
Here is mine I built . It is a copy of one Kurt use to build . Theirs had 3 t slots . Mine has a bunch of 3/8 taped holes.
http://sites.google.com/site/machinistsite/TWO-BUDDIES/lanes-home/tooling/LPlate2.JPG?attredirects=0

http://2271230184652140916-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/machinistsite/TWO-BUDDIES/lanes-home/tooling/LPlate2.JPG?attachauth=ANoY7coytLyBAn815DjjohYjrO5 bDwSyFdp2DNxTKvXY2PQvHtva2XQe-VbTxET1oS4t5zsMilTgbLSmKhYVJXSRAS9MtXeDziOy5YGUQKW Ia8Pv8D3TKVA8Yq71_N7e8HjP5JTIdQb9aAvYvw8oQjolm3-wCYyBhuU3Lc20zPlTUwInYVqzeAdbxjsgyZxIp5in3dW7Wti6o I7Fo3PjDxQLRwaIQZoiFUC803GI26xGuD4lSTfqE8JXNq4pgMw 0V363F3YV_-VG&attredirects=0

Lane, how big is that table?

I've been thinking of building something similar, but for the life of me I can't figure out how to cut the pivot holes in exactly the same location in both end plates, it seems like if you got them even a little off, it wold be difficult to correct/shim/whatever in a way that wouldn't introduce some error when you pivot it.

lane
01-14-2011, 08:43 PM
http://2271230184652140916-a-1802744773732722657-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/machinistsite/TWO-BUDDIES/lanes-home/tooling/LPlate2.JPG?attachauth=ANoY7coytLyBAn815DjjohYjrO5 bDwSyFdp2DNxTKvXY2PQvHtva2XQe-VbTxET1oS4t5zsMilTgbLSmKhYVJXSRAS9MtXeDziOy5YGUQKW Ia8Pv8D3TKVA8Yq71_N7e8HjP5JTIdQb9aAvYvw8oQjolm3-wCYyBhuU3Lc20zPlTUwInYVqzeAdbxjsgyZxIp5in3dW7Wti6o I7Fo3PjDxQLRwaIQZoiFUC803GI26xGuD4lSTfqE8JXNq4pgMw 0V363F3YV_-VG&attredirects=0

Lane, how big is that table?

I've been thinking of building something similar, but for the life of me I can't figure out how to cut the pivot holes in exactly the same location in both end plates, it seems like if you got them even a little off, it wold be difficult to correct/shim/whatever in a way that wouldn't introduce some error when you pivot it.

It is easy if you are use to working in .0001 of a inch. Both plates must be exactly the same size and you make all your moves with indicators are a dro. you can also stack the two plates together and do both of them in one setting . Their are many ways to do it just take your time and be exact . Get book # 2 of Projects in Metal I explained it all in easy to follow instructions. If I remember right the top is 6x12.

Silverback
01-15-2011, 05:44 AM
Lane, do you have a link to where I can get it? I looked for it last night and tonight and can't seem to find a copy...

JCHannum
01-15-2011, 09:35 AM
Lane's angle plate was originally published in Projects in Metal. It is reprinted in the Village Press book Metal Working, volume two. It is on page 138 and is rugged indeed. The table surface is 5" X10" X 3/8", but can be scaled to any convenient size.