PDA

View Full Version : Midlifecrisis tool gloat, Stainless lathe?!!



interiorpainter
03-04-2008, 07:23 AM
Nice lathe for use in a kitchen:D
http://www.marktplaats.nl/index.php?url=http%3A//bouw-tuin.marktplaats.nl/draaibanken/151719816-roestvrijstalen-draaibank.html%3Frotid%3D5026-40279-15698-12
Translation.
For sale: stainless steel lathe, 50cm between centers, can be viewed running.
The asking price for this piece of art is higher than 6500 euros.

The bed looks like the earlie guides of a Wabeco lathe.
After all this very nice work i hate to say that i think it won't be very rigid.

John Stevenson
03-04-2008, 08:20 AM
Make a good wood lathe..........

.

NickH
03-04-2008, 08:21 AM
It's got more bolt heads sticking out than a Frankenstein Monster Convention.
If it's art it's UGLY Modren Art!
Nick

tony ennis
03-04-2008, 08:23 AM
Methinks someone got stainless for free.

lazlo
03-04-2008, 08:23 AM
That lathe looks shop-made. ?

I can't imagine why you'd spend several thousand dollars in stainless stock making it thought -- a food service lathe? :)

Thomas Staubo
03-04-2008, 02:44 PM
That lathe looks shop-made. ?

I can't imagine why you'd spend several thousand dollars in stainless stock making it thought -- a food service lathe? :)

Turning carrots and turnips perhaps? :)


.

Mcgyver
03-04-2008, 03:00 PM
Make a good wood lathe..........

.


exactly - those are very loooooong unsupport ways. chatter chatter chatter. wonder where else design is lacking. 6500 euros :eek: a lot of work went into it, but its a bit silly imo.

boslab
03-04-2008, 03:31 PM
its probably designed for fuel rods or somthing, bet it glows in the dark
mark

Mark McGrath
03-04-2008, 07:31 PM
I just sold this one to a guy who`s putting it in his kitchen.
http://www.ems-fife.co.uk/schaublin.htm

Mark.

macona
03-04-2008, 07:45 PM
Beth that stainless lathe runs like crap. No cast iron to dampen anything. And its all bolted together.

lane
03-04-2008, 07:49 PM
Well at least it wont rust.

madman
03-04-2008, 07:53 PM
Also Shiny

wierdscience
03-04-2008, 11:13 PM
Don't let Ronco see that-

"prefect 1"8tpi carrots and matching potato nuts everytime!"Millions sold in Europe"act now supplies are limited":D

airsmith282
03-04-2008, 11:30 PM
you know its a cool lathe and alot of work went into buiding it as well,, to insult the guys work is wronge.. it might not be good for turnning metal,it might who knows it just might work great for wood who really knows .but i think that anyone that takes on an idea and makes something that cool has defently gota good head on his shoulders and a creative mind as well..


my 2 cents on this one

dockrat
03-04-2008, 11:56 PM
another kitchen product for Billy May to flogg??? :D

matador
03-05-2008, 12:02 AM
I'm with Tony Ennis,they probably got the stainless for free,or it was left over from a charge job.The dutch don't throw much away,I should know,I was born and raised there:D.
How well it goes depends what's under all that shiny ss plate.
I don't think the bed would be such a problem,it seems to have rods below the actual bed ones.This would add rigidity,it seems.What would worry me more,it's on wheels.Just as you lean on it to carefully take of that last micron,it rolls away,and you take off 3mm:D.The chuck doesn't look to be stainless,so food grade metalwork seems unlikely.In any case,is there such a thing as a SS chuck?I've certainly never seen one.

oldtiffie
03-05-2008, 01:27 AM
A lot of people are jumping on the band-wagon here - again - and rubbishing the sh*t out of it without really knowing what it was made to be used for, what it can do and what it will be used for, or what-ever else the builder set out to achieve.

This is a classic "everybody says so, so it must be right - so I say so too". It is a variation of the "Everybody else has got/says/does/can/doesn't have to" etc etc. that my kids used to use.

Not many words in favour of or for this machine or who-ever made and or used or uses it.

Now that is very odd indeed as linear rails were used by "Steve" and "Evan" in their CNC lathe and mill respectively and yet every body really marked them up (and not down) and gave them huge "WOW" comment - as did I - all of which was and is very well deserved.

So let's not go on from or degenerate from the "must be crap" (as of now) to "is crap" without a bit more relevant info.

Given the known problems of working with a lot of stainless steels, it seems to be a marvelous effort to me.

I would hope that it being of European origin is not a reason to "stick the shoe in".

Doc Nickel
03-05-2008, 03:33 AM
I have to agree with Tiffie, here. While I have no idea the background behind this machine, why it was built, for what purpose, I can tell you that a great deal of skill, time and labor went into it.

Hell, just thing of how long it took to polish everything.

And Tiff brings up a good point: Evan (http://www.littledee.net/2007pics/20080304.gif), among others, built his own machine, by hand, using often impractical means (flycutting in a lathe, tapping with a homemade tap, etc.) and using unconventional materials (bolted aluminum plate rather than cast iron) and is quite rightly praised for the effort. (Well, except for the flycutting thing... :D )

Now, some fellow- we're presuming- builds what appears to be an entire lathe- and a full-size one at that- from what appears to be highly polished stainless steel.

While the utility of the project may well be suspect, think of the skill and labor involved. Note, for example, the handwheel betwene the two headstock levers. That looks like a Vari-Drive type control to me. The two levers are undoubtedly a gearbox of some sort.

How many of you have built a gearbox? I'm sure some of you have, but most of us haven't.

The side panels are bolted, but it appears the frame, and other major assemblies (such as the headstock cover) were welded and then finished. The tailstock doesn't appear bolted, and if it were solid, it'd weigh 250 pounds all by itself. One presumes it was fabricated by welding plate, rather than being carved from a block of stainless.

I don't care if you think the end result is silly- and I, for one, kind of think that making 1-24th scale steam engines that do nothing but sit on the shelf is kind of silly- but you have to admit there's a great deal of skill involved there.

I'd really like to know if it was made by one guy, a fab shop under contract, a lab for some special purpose, or what.

Doc.

Evan
03-05-2008, 05:02 AM
I did a careful engineering analysis of the loads and deflections to be expected with the use of round rod ways on my mill. The amount of deflection to be expected goes up as the square of the length of the ways. As the ways in that design are about 3 to 4 times longer than mine and the static and dynamic loads quite a bit higher I would expect the machine to be largely unusable. On my mill the furthest any of the way bearings ever get from the supported end of the way shafts is 12 inches.

Also, the carriage bearing geometry violates the general rules for sliding bearings which stipulate that the corners of the rectangle formed by the bearings should be at the very least square and much preferably at least a golden ratio or more. Any less than square tends to produce jamming of the bearings with a large increase in stick/slip due to the deflections produced by the extra leverage of an undersquare bearing footprint. With the very long ways and the maximum distances possible from the end supports the ratio of length to width on the carriage and tailstock sliding bearings should be at least 2 to 1. Interesting to me is that the ratio on my South Bend is almost exactly a golden rectangle.

oldtiffie
03-05-2008, 06:39 AM
OK.

Thanks to Doc Nickel and Evan we have some rationality here on which to base an objective discussion.

So let's go on from here.

Could any of our European or European-speaking members see their way clear to seeing what is on the web as regards this project and let us know.

I for one would really appreciate it.

malbenbut
03-05-2008, 07:04 AM
Any lathe is better than none.
MBB

oldtiffie
03-05-2008, 07:56 AM
Interesting to me is that the ratio on my South Bend is almost exactly a golden rectangle.


Evan, I presume that the "golden rectangle" you refer to is one having the sides in a ratio of 1:sq.root2 = 1:1.414 = 0.7071:1

It just so happens that is the ration of the sides in the metric sheet series: A0, A1, A2, A3, A4, A5 etc.

A0 is one square meter = 1,000^2 = 1,000,000mm^2 with sides in the ratio of 0.7171:1

This is a very rational system.

See: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_216

It just so happens that the metric series of drawing pens follows in the same sequence where each is 1.414 X (larger) (rounded) than it predecessor and 0.707 X (smaller) than the next larger pen size.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technical_pen

interiorpainter
03-05-2008, 08:10 AM
Wabeco D3000E link. A lot smaller though. A bit like a big Unimat SL.

http://www.vdhbv.nl/Html/Producten/vdhbv/Nederlands/Markt1/Item6234.html

Evan
03-05-2008, 08:30 AM
Tiffie,

The golden ratio is known as Phi. It is 1 to 1.618...

It has a long and illustrious history in the design of just about anything as the number has very special properties.

http://goldennumber.net/

Evan
03-05-2008, 08:33 AM
Wabeco D3000E link. A lot smaller though. A bit like a big Unimat SL.
The difference is the scale factor. As you scale up the stiffness decreases as the cube of the size. That places a very distinct limit on how large certain types of designs may be.

I will also point out that my design does not depend entirely on the rod ways for support. The bottom axis, the X axis, utilizes a cast iron pad six inches wide at the back end of the carriage that slides on a steel bearing surface the entire width and constrains motion in rotation around the X axis ways. That entered the design at an early stage during analysis of the deflections of the round way system and is a very major contributor to the stability of the system.

mochinist
03-05-2008, 08:35 AM
I would hope that it being of European origin is not a reason to "stick the shoe in".I thought it was really cool till I saw it was from Europe.







:rolleyes:

lazlo
03-05-2008, 09:00 AM
Evan (http://www.littledee.net/2007pics/20080304.gif), among others, built his own machine, by hand, using often impractical means

Hilarious!

oldtiffie
03-05-2008, 09:17 AM
Evan, among others, built his own machine, by hand, using often impractical means


Hilarious!

It mightn't be if - sorry - when - Evan starts boxing you around the ears!!!

I'd guess that Doc meant "unorthodox - but very effective" though!!!

lazlo
03-05-2008, 09:29 AM
I'd guess that Doc meant "unorthodox - but very effective" though!!!

I don't think that's what Doc meant Tiff. I don't think you were here for that...

oldtiffie
03-05-2008, 09:43 AM
I'd guess that Doc meant "unorthodox - but very effective" though!!!


I don't think that's what Doc meant Tiff. I don't think you were here for that...

Oh yes I was.

Get some empty space in your PM bin - which is full - and I'll respond.

JCHannum
03-05-2008, 10:06 AM
The what and why are open for discussion. It is so shiny that is must hurt your eyes to operate in a brightly lit room. It does appear that the round rails are for guiding purposes and the carriage and tailstock are a close, sliding fit on what appears to be a substantial bed, so it might not be quite as flimsy as it might first appear.

As to the build and design of the machine, it is rather impressive, and a good example of what can be accomplished. It would be interesting to get a closer look at it to see just how it is constructed. Stainless steel is not the best selection for close, sliding fits as it is quite prone to galling. If this were not taken into consideration, it could be short lived as a lathe.

lazlo
03-05-2008, 10:41 AM
Stainless steel is not the best selection for close, sliding fits as it is quite prone to galling. If this were not taken into consideration, it could be short lived as a lathe.

I would be surprised if the rails are stainless -- that's probably Thomson linear rail, which are often case hardened carbon steel. Thomson shaft does come in 17-4 and 400 series stainless, but they run ball bearing bushings on it (I can't tell from the picture if they're using commerical ball bushings).

Still, round shafting is prone to sag (which is why they've largely been replaced by linear shafts), so I'm surprised they didn't use the two-piece supported shaft:

http://www.mcmaster.com/param/images/shafts/59585kc1--NC.gif

Evan
03-05-2008, 10:42 AM
Evidence is that it is unusable. The photos have a very distinct color imbalance to the blue which will make it appear shinier and in better condition than it is. After balancing the color gamut it appears to be covered in the same dirt as the floor, not just a reflection. It also hasn't been used in a long time, perhaps because it is indeed unusable as evidenced by the marks where the dirt has been pushed on the ways as indicated by the arrows. This would definitely be something to avoid buying sight unseen.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/sslathe.jpg

Frank Ford
03-05-2008, 10:48 AM
Looking at the second photo it seems to me this is not a regular lathe at all.

It's obviously a MACHINIST"S GAS GRILL with a precision spit, end support for a long leg 'o lamb, and all the tooling you'd need for truing hot dogs that come out of the package with too much runout. There's a nice big temperature gauge for the warming section that you can read while you're floating in the pool sipping your Margarita. Nice big casters for easy rolling on the deck. It has everything. . .

interiorpainter
03-05-2008, 12:20 PM
Is that a Daihatsu Cuore or a Suzuki Alto in the background?
Both very nice cars btw!

macona
03-05-2008, 02:35 PM
The bar bed has been successfully done before. Leinweber made such a lathe, but a whole lot heavier. Plus the tailstock was fixed at the end of the lathe and the entire head moved towards the tailstock along with the bars:


http://www.lathes.co.uk/leinweber/

Still a heck of a lot of cast iron in there. And massive rods.

Doc Nickel
03-05-2008, 02:45 PM
The bar bed has been successfully done before. Leinweber made such a lathe, but a whole lot heavier.

-There was just one of those for sale in Seattle a month or two ago, only about five grand, and the seller had most of the attachments, like the horizontal arbor, the shaper head, the grinder parts, and so on.

I'd never heard of it 'til seeing that, and thought some of the parts were pretty clever.

Doc.

macona
03-05-2008, 03:13 PM
Yeah, I saw it posted on CL as well. Only bad thing about it is if you want to use it you need a whole lot of room on the tailstock side if you need to use the tailstock close to the chuck.

wirewrkr
03-05-2008, 03:17 PM
Regardless of the naysayers, I love it! If I was stinkin rich, I would buy it, ship it here and charge people money to look at it in my friggin kitchen, where I would then charge them for custom carrots.
Really like it.wheels are turning.............pun intended.
Robert
less grumpy today.

lazlo
03-05-2008, 04:20 PM
The bar bed has been successfully done before. Leinweber made such a lathe, but a whole lot heavier.

Yep, there've been several round bed lathes over the years. There's the little Wabeco CNC lathe that's been sold since the '70's:

http://i14.ebayimg.com/08/i/000/dd/59/aab5_1.JPG

http://www.lathes.co.uk/wabeco/img1.gif

The Drummond had a single round way, and was popular with the U.K. Model Engineers. It's often mentioned in the earlier Model Engineer (magazine):

http://www.lathes.co.uk/drummond/img5.gif

The Wade:

http://www.lathes.co.uk/wade%20cva/img0.gif

I'm sure there's a bunch more if you search Tony's page...

Alistair Hosie
03-05-2008, 05:14 PM
Plenty of goodies going with your lathe Mark looks a nice one.Alistair

MCS
03-06-2008, 05:33 AM
Well, being Dutch, I can comment on it.

It looks like a lathe, a sort of 5:1 scale model of an Emco Unimat.
It was'nt designed, it looks more that it sort of happened.

Knowledge of mechanics and materials were put aside.
More shine than grind. It looks like a schoolproject.

To be short, typical Dutch, where looking alike is often confused with functional.

S_J_H
03-06-2008, 08:46 AM
My initial thoughts when I decided to build my cnc bench lathe were to use round bars for ways. It would have been the easiest route. I of course ended up using linear rails instead.
Here are 2 more round bar lathes I found listed at Tony's famous lathe site.
The Scope-
http://www.lathes.co.uk/scope/img1.jpg

The kneller-
http://www.lathes.co.uk/kneller/img0.gif

Steve

Evan
03-06-2008, 09:32 AM
There are plenty of functional round way lathes. Compare the size of the ways on the functional machines with the subject of this post. The ways on the SS lathe are so slender vs length that it will have all the rigidity of a wet tissue. That applies even if the rods are merely guide ways. It also isn't well appreciated how much scaling laws affect a design. When you double the dimensions of something the weight goes up eight times. Double it again and it's a 64 fold increase in mass.

[edit]


It would have been the easiest route.

The reason they aren't used more often is because it is one of the most difficult designs to produce. The design is inherently overconstrained and requires extreme precision in location of the ways in four of the six possible degrees of freedom.

Doc Nickel
03-06-2008, 03:15 PM
That applies even if the rods are merely guide ways.

-I believe this is the case. If you look at the first picture, it appears the carriage rides in a "keyway" in the middle of the bed below the rails. And both it and the tailstock appear to rest on the bed- or at least come very close to it.

If that's the case, the rails are largely just guides, while the bed takes the cutting forces.

Still certainly not the best system I'm sure, but I'd wager it's more rigid than you might think.

Again, somebody needs to call this guy and find out what's up. There has to be a reason he (or they?) made it out of stainless, even if that reason, as said before, was just that they had a lot of scrap stainless laying around. :D

Doc.

Evan
03-06-2008, 04:08 PM
I have looked at the image closely and can't discern any evidence that the bed is used to support the carriage. That would be very hard to tell on my mill as the clearance would be and is held to a very minimum value. My mill is in fact in part supported by other than the round ways but you can't tell that in even a close up photo.

[added]

I have found the Europeans place a higher value on permanance than we North Americans do, in general. Stainless steel is seen as exemplifying that sort of longevity. Germany is the only place where I have seen someone's back yard completely fenced with a stainless steel chain link fence.

MCS
03-06-2008, 04:24 PM
I hesitated a moment for calling the guy. But you'll never get the true story, he'll say that you can do anything with it, that stainless is the solution to all mechanical problems.

The Dutch, people of traders.

A giveaway is this in the advertisement:

"Aangeboden roestvrijstalen draaibank 50 t.d.s. werkend te zien. Voor dit kunstwerk is de vraagprijs boven de €6500,-."

Translated as:

On offer stainless steel lathe, 50 centimeter tdc, to be seen operating. The asking price for this work of art is above 6500 euro.

So it's art. And that's all.

Doc Nickel
03-06-2008, 05:44 PM
I have looked at the image closely and can't discern any evidence that the bed is used to support the carriage.

-Well, apart from near-contact with the bed, sure.

http://www.docsmachine.com/images/sslathe.jpg

And yes, that gap appears, on this very low-resolution and slightly out-of-focus image, to be wider than a sliding contact, but on the other hand, there could be wear pads of Turcite, or even just strips of Teflon under there. Hell, he could have rollers under there- the photo hides more than it shows.

It's a homemade lathe, so anything's possible. However, given the clear skill shown by the genral build and construction quality, I tend to doubt that the builder was so lax that he crippled the primary foundation of the machine.

This is borne out by the far-right end supports for the rails; they're seperated by a thin plate, and merely bolted to another, even thinner, plate. That's out of place considering the bulk of the rest of the build, if one assumes the rails are, in fact, the actual bed.

It is my opinion that the carriage and tailstock both ride on the bed, and the large rods do little more than guide, and so can be significantly thinner than if they were doing both support and guidance.

And again, no, it's probably not the best setup, but again, it was built by someone very skilled (or a group of very skilled people), and until we can get some additional photos or ones of higher resolution, or hear from the builder himself, it's all no more than speculation and guesswork.

Doc.

lazlo
03-06-2008, 05:55 PM
-Well, apart from near-contact with the bed, sure.
...
It is my opinion that the carriage and tailstock both ride on the bed, and the large rods do little more than guide, and so can be significantly thinner than if they were doing both support and guidance.

Good catch Doc -- looks like you're right.

The cross-feed looks built the same way, but the picture is too blurry to see if it's riding on box ways like the bed ways appear to be...

John Stevenson
03-06-2008, 06:09 PM
Only way to see if it's running on the bed is to get a picture from underneath.

hang on...............













http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/sslathe.jpg


.

oldtiffie
03-06-2008, 08:34 PM
Interesting discussion.

Nice job in making it whether it has any real use or not.

Maybe he/she/they just made it "because they could".

I'm surprised it's got this far without the "set it level with a Starret Master Guage" Cavalry Brigade haven't arrived on the scene yet.

Evan
03-07-2008, 12:44 AM
Doc, you can't tell if it is touching or not. In any case that wouldn't make a significant difference. The tool forces that tend to push the tool out of the cut would still have to be taken by the round ways and taking the weight off them makes no difference at all. The rods wouldn't be there unless it was thought they were needed and they aren't up to the job for simple engineering reasons.

BTW, notice how blue that pic is? I have to wonder about that. Indoor pics never come out too blue, just the opposite.

macona
03-07-2008, 02:56 AM
I am sure the blue light is from daylight coming in through the windows and his white balance is set for the fluorescent lights.

interiorpainter
03-07-2008, 04:01 AM
coffeebreak!
Even, the part of the cutting force taken up by the round stock are somewhere in the vincinity of the square root of the total force. In case there is a supporting box under the slide. The same reason why some ways are not symetrical to give more bearing.

Hobbymat the same persons from Prazi made a roundbed lathe with a flat top.
Looks like a 90 degrees tilted D. Works fine. It was even copied by the Chineese with all of the small design flaws:rolleyes:

Doc, have been thinking about what would happen if i call this man.
Abandoned warehouse in Amsterdam arguing over his design, what if he has got a stainless shredder too:eek:

Evan
03-07-2008, 04:40 AM
Very few people even know what white balance is let alone how to set it. If they did have it on manual then they would also know how it should be set for the prevailing lighting conditions.

The forces and deflections to the front and back as well as twisting forces around the vertical axis are unrelated to the forces and deflections caused by the weight of components on round ways. They are not additive as the vectors are 90 degrees different. As long as the stress and resulting strain do not exceed the elastic limit the response of the metal is entirely linear. This means that taking the component weight load off the round ways does nothing to increase the rigidity of the ways. It is vanishingly unlikely that the bedway is used to both support and constrain the motions of the carriage in more than one degree of freedom as this would make a system that would be so overconstrained as to be impossible to make usable or even movable. It's bad enough already when using a double round way system and very difficult to avoid alignment and binding issues especially on such a long baseline.

I refer you to the MIT open courseware Precision Machine Design lecture notes at http://pergatory.mit.edu/2.75/2-75_Lectures.htm

Take note especially of the topics 2 and 3 on errors and in particular the problem of overconstraint in linear sliding bearings.

[edit]

Also, I point out that merely letting the carriage contact the bedway leads to a severe overconstraint situation. It then imposes an alignment problem that requires the round ways be aligned in rotation around the centroid of the ways, the spacing of the ways above the bed, the parallelism of the ways to the bed and also imposes these same issues on the bedway itself. The practical solution of these issues is essentially unworkable.

Put simply, if the carriage touches the bedway it will become trapped between the bedway and the ways. Allowing it to touch imposes too many alignment problems to be solvable while still maintaining alignment with the headstock axis of rotation.

Doc Nickel
03-07-2008, 06:38 AM
You certainly do try to make it sound like you know a lot about this lathe and how it works, based on three badly-lit, low-resolution cellphone-camera photos. :D

I wonder if you'd have tried to argue for the design, if I'd originally said I thought it was an "utterly unworkable" system...

Doc.

NickH
03-07-2008, 07:18 AM
Look, it's a bit of a shed, a minger, a wrong 'un, can we let it go at that?:D
Nick

Evan
03-07-2008, 07:23 AM
You certainly do try to make it sound like you know a lot about this lathe and how it works, based on three badly-lit, low-resolution cellphone-camera photos. :D

I wonder if you'd have tried to argue for the design, if I'd originally said I thought it was an "utterly unworkable" system...

Not the lathe, the way system and you will have a hard time denying me that.

Doc Nickel
03-07-2008, 07:41 AM
Not the lathe, the way system and you will have a hard time denying me that.

-Who said I denied it? I seem to recall I've said at least twice that the system was probably not optimal.

What I have been saying is that I strongly suspect this particular lathe is likely considerably more capable than you make it out to be, in part because I suspect it uses both the rails and the box-form bedways to guide the carriage and tailstock.

I'm also saying you and I, along with everyone else in this thread, are making assumptions based on varying opinion and experience, and that none of us will know for sure until we get better photos or someone swings by to give us a personal, detailed report.

Doc.

Evan
03-07-2008, 07:52 AM
in part because I suspect it uses both the rails and the box-form bedways to guide the carriage and tailstock.

That isn't a workable system.

John Stevenson
03-07-2008, 07:55 AM
Oh God, please no.

Not again................................

Love - 10

.

NickH
03-07-2008, 08:37 AM
John,
give them time, they'll eventually realise that having the carriage sliding on top of a 10 ton casting with an optically perfect surface but with bungee providing location and holding it down is not a good design, or I hope they will anyway. :D

Nick
P.S I always said you can't polish a turd, I was wrong, you get a shiny turd!

oldtiffie
03-07-2008, 08:48 AM
Oh God, please no.

Not again................................

Love - 10

.

Yep,

another one of "those" threads John.

I think that a mid-life crisis is being had here (or there) and being manifested as any, or all of:
- orgasm;
- menopause;
- "hissy fit";
- "wobbly";
- etc.

In case anyone has forgotten - or chose to forget or over-look it, the Original Post (OP) by interiordecorator was a "tongue in cheek" light-hearted post on a stainless steel lathe for sale in Europe.

The OP was - and still is:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=339342&postcount=1

And for the edification of any that for what-ever reason choose not to use the OP as a reference or "touch-stone" it's content is:



Midlifecrisis tool gloat, Stainless lathe?!!

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Nice lathe for use in a kitchen
http://www.marktplaats.nl/index.php?...40279-15698-12
Translation.
For sale: stainless steel lathe, 50cm between centers, can be viewed running.
The asking price for this piece of art is higher than 6500 euros.

The bed looks like the earlie guides of a Wabeco lathe.
After all this very nice work i hate to say that i think it won't be very rigid.

JCHannum
03-07-2008, 10:49 AM
Funny thing is, the ad merely states "stainless steel lathe", with no mention as to intended application.

It is quite obviously a well thought out machine that has been built to a purpose. It has some form of gear drive with control by the two levers and possibly a speed indicator. There are several rods running the length of the bed in addition to the two guide rods, one appears to have some electrical cable attached, perhaps a position locating device such as a LVDT. The function of the others is unknown.

It is obvious that it was designed and built with a good deal of skill and probably involved some in depth engineering along the way. It was not thrown together in a beer hazed weekend by a couple of bubbas. (I'm not denigrating beer hazed weekends or bubbas here.)

With nothing more to go on than three poor photos taken over several thousand miles and a couple of oceans away, a two line description in a foreign language, and absolutely no knowledge of the purpose of the machine, it is impossible to diagnose it as being "not a workable system."

Evan
03-07-2008, 01:35 PM
it is impossible to diagnose it as being "not a workable system."
That may be true for you Jim. I suggest you go through the MIT course and get back to us.

By the way, you should read my post again. I didn't use the term "Not a workable system" in direct reference to the lathe but to Doc's suggestion that the carriage rides on the bed. Not quite the same thing. The lathe I said is "probably unusable" for the intended purpose. We don't know if the carriage rides on the bed but if it does it is not a workable system.

JCHannum
03-07-2008, 02:10 PM
Absent any knowledge at all on the intended use of the machine, no intelligent decision as to the success or failure of the design can be made.

Evan
03-07-2008, 02:20 PM
It looks just like a metal cutting lathe to me. As they say, a picture is worth a 1000 words. Absent other statements to the contrary and given that the machine is identified as a lathe I suggest it is safe to assume it was intended to be a lathe.

I suppose it could be a carrot peeler though.

Doc Nickel
03-07-2008, 03:27 PM
It looks just like a metal cutting lathe to me. As they say, a picture is worth a 1000 words. Absent other statements to the contrary and given that the machine is identified as a lathe I suggest it is safe to assume it was intended to be a lathe.

I suppose it could be a carrot peeler though.

-Keep whipping that horse Evan, I don't think it's quite completely dead yet. There's still a chance for you to prove to us all how smart you are!

:D

Doc.

topct
03-07-2008, 04:47 PM
Of all of the neat things I have seen home built, and shown here, this particular one, does not impress me.

It is a rattle trap. It would ring like a bell doing nothing more than spinning the chuck.

Evan
03-07-2008, 05:49 PM
Keep whipping that horse Evan, I don't think it's quite completely dead yet. There's still a chance for you to prove to us all how smart you are!

:D
Funny how it isn't me that starts these disagreements. I simply make an observation and then a very few members will choose to dispute it regardless of the topic and usually without regard to what was actually written. That very much includes you.

[edit]

Further, when I explain the reasoning behind my observation it is also usual for the salient points to be ignored and the discussion prolonged by misreading (or not reading) something else that is then attributed to me. These are not my tactics. I present the information as I see it. The replies frequently then attack selected portions of the information and myself by implication and inuenndo rather than presenting a reasonable argument based on the available evidence, current state of the art etc.

Doc Nickel
03-07-2008, 06:44 PM
It's clear you assume, for some reason, that they did less research and engineering building their machine tool, than you did building yours, and that's still a pretty big leap to make going by the extremely limited dataset we have.

So tell you what- let me know what you find when you've had a chance to actually try the machine. 'Til then, it's all speculation and guesswork.

Doc.

oldtiffie
03-07-2008, 08:08 PM
First of all, the link to the sale site for this lathe (for which - at this time there are no bids) is:
http://www.marktplaats.nl/index.php?url=http%3A//bouw-tuin.marktplaats.nl/draaibanken/151719816-roestvrijstalen-draaibank.html%3Frotid%3D5026-40279-15698-12

It is in Dutch - as said in earlier posts.

There are vastly more people in Europe that can speak or understand English than there are people in OZ, USA, UK, NZ and Canada etc. that can speak or understand Dutch. I am included in the list of those that can't speak or understand any language other the English.

interiorpainter at the Original Post (OP) advised both of the site and that the translation is:

Translation.
For sale: stainless steel lathe, 50cm between centers, can be viewed running.
The asking price for this piece of art is higher than 6500 euros.

MCS at post # 42 at:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=339954&postcount=42

advised that:


Well, being Dutch, I can comment on it.

It looks like a lathe, a sort of 5:1 scale model of an Emco Unimat.
It was'nt designed, it looks more that it sort of happened.

Knowledge of mechanics and materials were put aside.
More shine than grind. It looks like a schoolproject.

To be short, typical Dutch, where looking alike is often confused with functional.

So, to "cut to the chase" and to "cut the cackle", and move things on from the "think/say so" area where the apparent but unsupported "know so" argument (it sure isn't a discussion any more) is to the real definitive "know so" area, the only sure way is to contact the owner/seller on the link provided.

Why? To ask him - that's why!! He, despite the best (worst ??) effort/s here is the only "know it all".

So why not ask MCS, who is Dutch to email the seller/owner/maker? and ask for details and translate the answer for us and settle this lot once and for bloody all.

Perhaps we might ask MCS to also forward the link to this thread:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=27936
and ask the seller to either respond directly to it or better yet ask him to put it up on his site or the European equivalent of this (HSM) forum/BBS.

Yeah - we'd be laughed off the planet!!!

So?

MCS
03-08-2008, 05:42 AM
Yeah - we'd be laughed off the planet!!!



That is a reasonable start. I hesitated this week to phone the seller.

But this seemed an discussion where any reasonable input from others, including the maker, designer would be put aside.

They could present their case here, but would be tunnelvisioned away.
Burdened with problems they never had.
Problems, derived from assumptions and extrapolations, even generalisations.

Typical internet, where the inverted truth is trueer.
Where you can argue with unescapable logic that a bridge should be under water.

I will try to phone the seller and ask him what the meaning of the lathe lookalike is. We'll see, it's only 40 kilometers from here.

This thread will make his day. For me, that's basically the function of internet.:D

Doc Nickel
03-08-2008, 06:41 AM
I will try to phone the seller and ask him what the meaning of the lathe lookalike is. We'll see, it's only 40 kilometers from here.

40km? Heck, drive over there and try it! :)

Quick tip, though, don't make jokes and say things like "fake lathe" or "lathe lookalike". Try to get his honest opinion of it.

That and see if you can find out why it was made from stainless. There's gotta be a reason for it, but damned if I can think of one, other than "he had a lot of stainless laying around". :D

Doc.

Evan
03-08-2008, 07:12 AM
See if you can spot any carrot peelings.

MCS
03-08-2008, 07:49 AM
So, I phoned the son, the wife and the father. The son was highly amused.

The father is the seller. Not the maker.
On origin he was a bit evasive. "Don't know who made it."

Me: Did you ever use it as a lathe?

Him: No. It's a wonderfull thing to look at, totally stainless.
Variomatic speed control, it's complete functional.
You could use it as a lathe, although I never did it.
Mainly it must be seen as art.

Me: You sound as you regret to sell it.

Him: Yes, I do, but I have already 3 lathes. But you should see this one.

Me: Then you are richer than I am, I only have one. Maybe one day I'll have a look.

Driving is a little difficult today, as I am replacing my brake lines with stainless ones.:D

Everybody happy now?

Evan
03-08-2008, 08:40 AM
I suppose that completely functional means that it you turn it on the spindle rotates.

John Stevenson
03-08-2008, 08:53 AM
About as functional as a South Bend or round bed Drummond compared to a Mori-Seki.
They both have the same controls, it's just that one uses them better.

But they are all functional.

.

MCS
03-08-2008, 09:00 AM
Completely functional as in rotating spindle, gearchange, feed, everything.

Except making chips. I think even except drilling with the tailstock.

I maintain my point of view. Disproportional, not engineered as a lathe.
Originated somewhere in the dairy or slaugtherhouse industry.

There they are fascinated with the rounded and polished welding finish, as shown on the hood of the spindlehousing. Everywhere 300-series stainless, where in this case 400-series stainless would be the first choice, if you want to go this way.

A larger than life scalemodel, given more attention than it's worth.

If you ask me about my lathe, I can give you plus and minuspoints.
This thing, now I am going to call it a thing, sits among others lathes.
The owner praises it only for it's decorative value.

It's only function is honey for the eye.

For some.

John Stevenson
03-08-2008, 09:05 AM
Now if he'd made it outta billet.........................................











.

MCS
03-08-2008, 09:17 AM
Now if he'd made it outta billet.........................................

.
You forgot "aerospace quality"

oldtiffie
03-08-2008, 07:37 PM
Completely functional as in rotating spindle, gearchange, feed, everything.

Except making chips. I think even except drilling with the tailstock.

I maintain my point of view. Disproportional, not engineered as a lathe.
Originated somewhere in the dairy or slaugtherhouse industry.

There they are fascinated with the rounded and polished welding finish, as shown on the hood of the spindlehousing. Everywhere 300-series stainless, where in this case 400-series stainless would be the first choice, if you want to go this way.

A larger than life scalemodel, given more attention than it's worth.

If you ask me about my lathe, I can give you plus and minuspoints.
This thing, now I am going to call it a thing, sits among others lathes.
The owner praises it only for it's decorative value.

It's only function is honey for the eye.

For some.

Thanks MCS - sincerely - for trying.

I guess that from your reply that you are living pretty close (40Km) to the Seller.

We have a lot of Dutch people in Australia - very nice people but can be tight with a dollar - mostly. Excellent citizens. Top Tradesmen - especially in wood/timber and in Mechanical stuff as well. A lot have Dairy farms (milk, cream, beef etc.) as you suggest. Many are Builders too.

They are very proud of their heritage.

A few that have very strong opinions are or can be very obstinate ("pig-headed") - but they are completely put in the shade by some on this forum/thread.

I thought you did an excellent job of finding out and posting exactly "what is all about and what it really is" - but alas apparently to no avail in some instances.

Some here seem to have "selective deafness" as regards (not?) hearing (seeing?) the reality of it all.

Perhaps the "none so blind as those that do not want to see" syndrome is alive and flourishing here too (?).

I haven't seen much like this since my time in the Navy when we used to catch one shark in a school and see the others go into a feeding frenzy on that caught shark - and then they'd attack any that they saw as wounded and then each other - the water was red and boiling with sharks thrashing everywhere - gory stuff!!.

Also when I was in the Navy, some of the Physical Trainers had a "game" (after a lot of drinking!!) - forget the name of it - in which they leaned forward with hands on a brick wall and on the order "Go!!" would start banging their head (fore-head) on the wall - hard. The "winner" was the last on left banging his head on the wall. The rest of us thought the "winner" was the "biggest loser" in an activity for "losers". They had other similar "games" that everybody else left alone!!

There are some aspiring "winners" in similar circumstances here too.

I'd love to see what happens when (if?) the seller puts this thread up on the equivalent Dutch/European site/forum/fora.

MCS
03-11-2008, 05:10 PM
I'd love to see what happens when (if?) the seller puts this thread up on the equivalent Dutch/European site/forum/fora.

They (the Europeans) would start all over again. Maybe quibble over another point. We're no better.

Hardheadedness is not confined to members of this forum.
You'll find them anywhere, starting with politicians, they're notorious.

Alistair Hosie
03-11-2008, 05:48 PM
Even I had to admit it looks ugly sorry not meant to offend but it's just wrong whichever way you look at itAlistair