PDA

View Full Version : OT: When the heck is ebay going to do some thing about sheil bidding



JoeFin
03-05-2008, 09:48 PM
I mean this is ridiculous.

This is about the unteenth time Iíve witnessed this seller using such an obvious sheil bidder identity to jack up his items. Iíve filed complaints about it to ebay, and of course they never responded, only to realize it part of doing business on ebay

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=140211825645&aid=0***-&eu=tvYPkNML0%2Bc43doXk5H0Cn7lY%2BqtfdBsWcpBiJwcb9o %3D&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewItem Link

It has actually gotten to the point I feel sorry for the guy who wants this CNC and is getting taken to the cleaners by sheil bidding

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=140211825645

Sure it would be nice to have possibly even at that price. It is dealing with the dishonesty I resent

JCHannum
03-05-2008, 10:07 PM
In the first place, the term is shill bidding.

In the second place, what makes you think that was shill bidding in the first place?

flyby
03-05-2008, 10:28 PM
Send your address so we can send you some cheese to go with your wine!!I realise we should all offer you, everything for a buck before we put it on ebay! If you don,t want to bid. Don,t but quit whining!!!

tony ennis
03-05-2008, 10:39 PM
Why so hostile?

I was happy to learn about detecting shillage.

Ken_Shea
03-05-2008, 10:51 PM
In the first place, the term is shill bidding.

In the second place, what makes you think that was shill bidding in the first place?

JC,
In the first place, I understood what he was talking about with out reverting to a stick in the eye !

In the second place,
What makes you think it isn't, perhaps eBay's business ethics would not allow them to turn a blind eye to such a high dollar power seller ????

Looks more then a little suspicious to me too Joe!

But then, some here (not all) feel it is or should be required that we have thousands of post before we are credited with knowing, implying we know or permitted to post with out sarcasm the most basic beliefs or opinions about anything.
Darn, too bad I don't care ;) .

Ken

Ken_Shea
03-05-2008, 10:57 PM
Send your address so we can send you some cheese to go with your wine!!I realise we should all offer you, everything for a buck before we put it on ebay! If you don,t want to bid. Don,t but quit whining!!!

Flyby, if you don't like selling your stuff on eBay for a buck put a reserve on it and quit the second hand whining.

Ken

speedsport
03-05-2008, 11:20 PM
nobody forces you or anybody else to bid on an item, its voluntary.

JoeFin
03-05-2008, 11:23 PM
How I can detect a shil bidder

As with this bidder, ALL his bids have been in the last 2 days and 88% of those bids with this one seller

As with this bidder who ALSO only bids on Reliable Tool auctions

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=140211825645&aid=4***b&eu=mZ7FchSdqLiTEGVOA9Q%2FREwsXlD9WKee&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

and this one who also only bids on Reliable tool auctions

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=140211825645&aid=a***t&eu=TP4B0AA0z6EW7hLLNaMU34HF3Psnzhqn&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

Almost any time you look at their auctions you see the same pattern of 0 feedback bidders bidding up items.

If they want a reserve they should list the item as such

Ken_Shea
03-05-2008, 11:45 PM
nobody forces you or anybody else to bid on an item, its voluntary.
Speedsport.
I agree with that, there was no complaint on what that item sold for, but has it become so unreasonable today to expect that what we bid on and/or purchase is not priced without deception.

I do not / will not accept anything less. There seems to be, it started years ago and just gets worse with time, that what an item is worth means nothing, seems all that is important is that I get as much as absolutly possible for it.
Screw that mentality to the floor, I refuse to accept that as honesty.

macona
03-05-2008, 11:46 PM
There are several known buyers that only buy from Reliable tool. This subject has come up over on PM and the buyers have been legit.

The guy I bought my 10EE from down in LA knows the people at RT and he said they dont shill. Sure, its hearsay but I have no reason to doubt he was telling the truth.

38_Cal
03-05-2008, 11:46 PM
Very interesting. I was at the Maytag auction in Newton, IA, recently, and the auctioneer sure seemed to have a "special relationship" with the guy from Reliable Tools...I was watching a Bridgeport that he was bidding on and won, and he managed to turn it on EvilBay for quite a bit more than he paid. (Not that that's necessarily a bad thing if you're selling stuff!) The thing that I was taken aback by was his auction description compared to my personal examination of the machine...not quite 180 degrees out of sync, more like 135.

David
Montezuma, IA

speedsport
03-05-2008, 11:59 PM
something is "worth" what ever somebody will pay for it, it might be worth $10 to you and $100 to me.

KiddZimaHater
03-06-2008, 12:00 AM
I could care less about shill bidders, or sniping on Ebay.
I bid exactly what I'm comfortable spending, and not a dime more.
If some moron is desperate for it, and outbids me .... OH WELL !!!

gnm109
03-06-2008, 12:03 AM
How I can detect a shil bidder

As with this bidder, ALL his bids have been in the last 2 days and 88% of those bids with this one seller

As with this bidder who ALSO only bids on Reliable Tool auctions

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=140211825645&aid=4***b&eu=mZ7FchSdqLiTEGVOA9Q%2FREwsXlD9WKee&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

and this one who also only bids on Reliable tool auctions

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidderProfile&mode=1&item=140211825645&aid=a***t&eu=TP4B0AA0z6EW7hLLNaMU34HF3Psnzhqn&view=NONE&ssPageName=PageBidderProfileViewBids_None_ViewLink

Almost any time you look at their auctions you see the same pattern of 0 feedback bidders bidding up items.

If they want a reserve they should list the item as such


I believe that the bidding pattern that you see is not shill bidding. Rather, it is proxy bidding . Some folks will put a large bid in early. When someone else bids, the software auomatically places bids in increments until the proxy amount has been fully expended. That accounts for the large number of bids from the same bidder.

There are also a lot of bidders getting new ID's now on eBay due to the new rules. I'm doing that myself, one for buying, one for selling. That accounts for the large number of zero feedback bidders.

If you already knew this, please forgive and I'll go back to my lurking. :)

Ken_Shea
03-06-2008, 12:08 AM
something is "worth" what ever somebody will pay for it, it might be worth $10 to you and $100 to me.

Yeah, well
We will see if you agree with your outlook on honesty further down the road ;)

mechanicalmagic
03-06-2008, 12:48 AM
I could care less about shill bidders, or sniping on Ebay.
I bid exactly what I'm comfortable spending, and not a dime more.
If some moron is desperate for it, and outbids me .... OH WELL !!!

ABSOLUTELY CORRECT. ebay allows bid-bots that enter bids at the last moment, hoping to get in bids before someone else responds.

I have been successful, bidding early, at a fair price. If I get it, smart buyer. If somebody overbids, dumb buyer. The early in technique SOMETIMES slows some bidders.

YMMV.

torker
03-06-2008, 01:00 AM
OK...but didn't Joe say these "bidders" had 0% feedback?

dockrat
03-06-2008, 01:40 AM
I never bid on anything on Ebay till the last 1-7 seconds. I have 2 monitors on my computer and have 2 copies of ebay up at once...one on each screen. one screen has the "confirm bid" screen with my max bid entered. On the other screen I keep hitting the refresh button on the item till its down to under 10 seconds then swing the mouse over to the other screen and hit the confirm button. Gives the other bidder no time to change his bid if his max is under mine. I can think of only two occassions that I have been beat out using that method and that was because MY max was lower than his but thats ok because I wasn't willing to pay any more than my max.

barts
03-06-2008, 02:43 AM
1) decide how much you're willing to pay for the item
2) http://esnipe.com/

Simple, easy and cheap.

- Bart

ptjw7uk
03-06-2008, 04:12 AM
I have seen some ebay type auctions that any bid in the last 5 minutes extends the auction by 1 minute sure will stop snipe bids, not sure what you can do about shill bids except only pay what you are comfortable with.
Peter

Forrest Addy
03-06-2008, 05:19 AM
Just as well. $3050 for a used-up POS CNC turret mill with oddball everything, a hacked up table, and a 40 taper of dubious rigidity is a little excessive.

JoeFin
03-06-2008, 06:41 AM
Guys

I wasn't questioning the price as much as the trend.

And I've seen this trend on this seller's items way before the latest changes, so attributing it to people getting second IDs because of the new rules doesn't seem to make sense.

Additionally as in this case these shil bids are not snipeing. They are placed hours, even days ahead of the close of auction. More then enough time for some one think it over and increase their bid.

It is the pattern of 0 feedback bidders, bidding exclusively on 1 seller's items I find extremely difficult to attribute to "Natural Market Forces"

For 1 I would find it difficult to beleive so many new folks would come to Ebone and instantly develope a 100% customer royalty to any 1 seller before they ever purchased and recieved any item what so ever.

In Vegas you would call that a 1 in a 1,000,000,000 shot. Yet this seller has a new 1 in a million customer every month or week, and even multuple 1 in a million customers.

Just a little too good to be true

gnm109
03-06-2008, 06:52 AM
Guys

I wasn't questioning the price as much as the trend.

And I've seen this trend on this seller's items way before the latest changes, so attributing it to people getting second IDs because of the new rules doesn't seem to make sense.

Additionally as in this case these shil bids are not snipeing. They are placed hours, even days ahead of the close of auction. More then enough time for some one think it over and increase their bid.

It is the pattern of 0 feedback bidders, bidding exclusively on 1 seller's items I find extremely difficult to attribute to "Natural Market Forces"

For 1 I would find it difficult to beleive so many new folks would come to Ebone and instantly develope a 100% customer royalty to any 1 seller before they ever purchased and recieved any item what so ever.

In Vegas you would call that a 1 in a 1,000,000,000 shot. Yet this seller has a new 1 in a million customer every month or week, and even multuple 1 in a million customers.

Just a little too good to be true
===================================
As I said in my earlier post, these appear to be proxy bids. There's nothing unusual about them at all. The multiple bids are automatic.

I can assure you though, that eBay doesn't care what any of us think. They are like the only girl in town, e.g., they have a monopoly.

I don't wish to sound impertinent but there is still one thing that hasn't changed. If you want to win on eBay, you have to put in the highest bid.

:D

JoeFin
03-06-2008, 07:17 AM
===================================
As I said in my earlier post, these appear to be proxy bids. There's nothing unusual about them at all. The multiple bids are automatic.

Right

In 2 days this "Proxy Bidder" bids exclusively on 20 different items by 1 seller.

And not only does he have this loyal would be customer, he always has 1 or 2 of these loyal customers bidding on his stuff that are so unfortunate they never learn to increase their bids and actually win any thing.

If you beleive that I have some "Great Investment Opportunities" for you

Rustybolt
03-06-2008, 07:17 AM
38cal. Who's auction was it? I've run into some shady practices much like you discribe from Hilldebrand which is an iowa auctioneer.

JCHannum
03-06-2008, 07:48 AM
I made no reference to JoeFin's number of posts, merely pointed out that if you intend to present yourself as some sort of expert on a subject, you should at least be able to spell the five letter word that describes that subject correctly.

Of all the millions of buyers and sellers on eBay, not one has managed find a way of starting and instantly having a high feedback number. They all start at zero.

This auction had two new bidders bidding against each other using the eBay proxy bid system, one won, one lost. That is all there is to it. Reliable Tools is not going to hire someone to set up a new account to shill his auctions. He has no control on who bids on his auctions. With the extremely large amount of activity on the Reliable site, it is not at all unusual that new bidders will tend to show up there.

If there is a shill bidding conspiracy, show me large numbers of Reliable's machines being auctioned over and over, not one or two now and then, as any sale will fall through on occasion, but show me a consistant pattern of relisting the same item and it might give your argument some credibility. If your accusation is correct, Reliable will have to deal with all of these shill purchases somehow.

As far as an auctioneer giving a buyer a nod, that really makes a lot of sense, selling all the items to the low bidder is not the name of the game. A buyer that wins a majority of items at an auction will sometimes drive the prices down as the other bidders will get tired of being outbid, and quit, but that is not in the auctioneer's favor.

An auctioneer will treat a buyer who is spending tens of thousands of dollars a little differently than a buyer who is bottom feeding on ten dollar items though.

All of this has been hashed over and over, moreso on the PM site than here, and there are some who will never be convinced.

Ernest Kerr
03-06-2008, 08:20 AM
Use a service like Phantom Bidder and place your highest offer. Phantom Bidder will place your bid at the last few seconds of the auction and you avoid the escalating bidding promoted by shills.

Your Old Dog
03-06-2008, 08:48 AM
Guys

I wasn't questioning the price as much as the trend.

And I've seen this trend on this seller's items way before the latest changes, so attributing it to people getting second IDs because of the new rules doesn't seem to make sense.

Additionally as in this case these shill bids are not sniping. They are placed hours, even days ahead of the close of auction. More then enough time for some one think it over and increase their bid.

It is the pattern of 0 feedback bidders, bidding exclusively on 1 seller's items I find extremely difficult to attribute to "Natural Market Forces"

For 1 I would find it difficult to believe so many new folks would come to Ebone and instantly develope a 100% customer royalty to any 1 seller before they ever purchased and recieved any item what so ever.

In Vegas you would call that a 1 in a 1,000,000,000 shot. Yet this seller has a new 1 in a million customer every month or week, and even multuple 1 in a million customers.

Just a little too good to be true

I agree with you for being pi$$ed off about it. I go to an auction with the expectation of getting lucky. Whether that auction is in an old warehouse across town or on ebay. When I see "0" feedback bidders I'm out of here. They can easily be a disgruntled former customer of the person with the listing, they could be the person's spouse, or, they could be simply be someone having some fun. On many of the auctions I run I remember to add that I won't accept bids under 10 feedbacks. They have nothing to loose by smoking my nearly 300 feedback rating.

Use www.esnipe.com (http://www.esnipe.com) instead. Post your top dollar. This means if you live on the East Coast and your competition lives next to eBays computers, your ping rate will be just as good as theirs in a bidding war. Also, you won't be tipping your hand and "starting" a bidding war. But most importantly, if you see a lot of "0" bidders come up, you can go to esnipe and cancel your bid before you get sucked in. I use esnipe all the time and find it works great for me. Guys who live close to eBay computers hate it! No kidding !! I'd be whinning too as it's a waste of my time and money to be bidding in a sham. There isn't much difference in shilling and crooked card game?

PS. Esnipe allows you to create a bid folder. I can put 10 lathes in one folder all at different bids. Esnipe will then kill the folder as soon as you win your first lathe at auction. It's a fantastic feature. You can change or delete a bid up to 20 minutes before the end of any auction.

wierdscience
03-06-2008, 08:48 AM
Unless a bidbot is being used to do the shilling:D

Unless I am mistaken shilling either voice or internet auctions is a risky proposition since no one else may win the item and the seller ends up paying final value fees or is stuck with the item as in a voice bid.

So with that in mind if it is shilling then the alleged shill will recieve negative feedback as a non-paying bidder right?

Shilling used to be common at voice bid sales here,certain auctioneers are well known for it,mostly in the earth moving equipment biz.One thought he would try his hand at it on machinshop equipment at a time when the machineshop biz was in the toilet here.He got himself stuck with several large pieces of equipment that he ended up hauling to every auction in the area for a couple of years finally selling dirt cheap to unload it.He must have taken a beating on it just in hauling.

lazlo
03-06-2008, 09:42 AM
There are several known buyers that only buy from Reliable tool. This subject has come up over on PM and the buyers have been legit.

That's a bit of a stretch Macona. In the thread you're talking about, there was series of complaints about Reliable on the Ebay Safe Harbor (Fraud) Forum, and we were discussing Smonros, who at the time was buying around 30% of all Reliable's auctions -- seemingly completely unrelated stuff. His bid history was 100% with Reliable.

During the midst of the thread on PM, Mariano, the owner of Reliable, called Don at home on a Sunday, and "explained" that Smonros was a millionare who was stocking-up a machine shop.

There was no explanation of why Smonros was only bidding on Reliable auctions (there are plenty of other dealers in the LA area), why he was bidding on almost every Reliable auction as soon as it was listed, for completely unrelated items (he'd bid on $10 scriber in one auction, and a $23,000 Turning Center in the next), and leaving positive feedback as soon as the auction was over (literally!). There was also no explanation why a multi-millionaire would be bidding on a bunch of $10 items, or how a multi-millionaire had time to place bids on hundreds of items a month.

Brown & Sharpe Scriber Set

Auction ended ________ Nov-03-06 19:17 PST
Smonros left feedback at Nov-03-06 21:45 PST

At one amusing point in the thread, someone pointed out that Smonros bid (and won) an 8' scraping master, and in the very next auction bid an insane amount for a beat-up Chicom drill press where someone had welded the chuck onto the spindle. Forrest (if I remember correctly), wryly pointed out that maybe Smonros was going to scrape the drill press table ;)

"Old Reliable" receiving some serious scrutiny (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=142985)

Shortly after that heated discussion on Ebay's Safe Harbor Forum (and the PM thread), Smonros disappeared off the face of the earth, and hasn't bid on a single item since.

But Smonros is one of at least a dozen bidders who bid only on Reliable auctions. I don't know of any other seller on Ebay who has bidders who bid only on their auctions.

CVWest (http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBidItems&userid=+cvwest&sort=3&all=1&completed=1&rows=200) is another Reliable-only bidder, for example.

On the other hand, Reliable is an extremely touchy subject on PM because a lot of regulars there have bought stuff from Reliable, so they really don't want to hear about shill bidding...

Smonros' bid history is fun to read:

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback2&userid=smonros&ftab=AllFeedback

JCHannum
03-06-2008, 10:16 AM
The bulk buyers at Reliable are no different than the bulk buyers you will frequently see at live auctions in this area. For instance, there is one very tall, possibly Indian, buyer who turns up once or twice a year. I have gotten to know him, and he is a pretty nice guy. Ali attends every auction in the area and bids on and buys anything, good, bad and indifferent.

He is buying in bulk and makes up container loads. When they are shipped, he returns to his homeland and deals with them. The good tools are put into immediate use. The odds & ends are accumulated and used to make one good one out of several parts machines or to repair existing tools and the junk is junked. The low labor and shipping costs make this feasible.

When they are gone, he returns for more. It is these buyers who, in part, are responsible for the increasing quality of production coming out of these countries as they are relocating the machine tools necessary to do it.

As far as zero feedback buyers, it is simply good business practice for a person looking for several tools to start a machine shop, or add to an existing shop, to patronize a seller who will have the tools he wants at a low cost in one place. It makes no sense to buy a lathe in Texas, a milling machine in Delaware and a grinder in Florida and pay all the associated shipping and handling costs when he can buy them all in one place and ship in one load.

Reliable Tools has built up a successful business, and is continuing it. There is nothing for him to gain, and everything for him to lose by jerking around with shill bidding and other such nonsense to make a couple of extra dollars.

lazlo
03-06-2008, 10:54 AM
So why are these bulk buyers only buying Reliable's auctions? Why aren't they bidding on your auctions, or Don's, or Machinery Values, or Cal Aero (big LA dealer), or Midwest Machinery...

...or more importantly, why don't those dealers have bulk buyers?

JCHannum
03-06-2008, 11:12 AM
Someone once asked Willie Sutton why he robbed banks. His answer was, "Because that's where the money is."

I posted a simple method to prove Reliable's shilling, simply show all those "shilled" tools being relisted and you will convince me he is shilling.

Pete H
03-06-2008, 11:15 AM
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

eBay has brought a lot of goods to market, made some people a lot of money, and saved some people a lot of money, but basically, it's a free-market engine, and so "buyer beware" is the byword. Act as though the other party is honest, but take all reasonable precautions (and maybe some excessive ones) against DIShonesty.

I came close to taking a burn on my very first eBay transaction - I bought a small harp that was described as being in very good condition, from someone who claimed not to know anything about these things. Well, when it came in, I found it had been left to stand in the damp for long enough to start rotting, and had structural damage that was just about unrepairable. Oh, and the return address was a MUSIC SHOP.

So I complained to the seller (I don't recall if there even was a "feedback" function in those days), and was ignored. I got my money back when I reminded him that he'd accepted payment by Postal Order, and thus was liable for mail-fraud charges. (I don't know whether that's so or not, but HE believed it was!)

I wonder... is it cheaper to pay eBay's sales commission on a "shill bid" than it is to pay the fee for a "reserve" ?

lazlo
03-06-2008, 11:19 AM
I posted a simple method to prove Reliable's shilling, simply show all those "shilled" tools being relisted and you will convince me he is shilling.

They're not that stupid, especially since Reliable has been accused so many times of shillling, here, on PracticalMachinist, and on Ebay's Safe Harbor Forum.

One frequent conjecture on the many threads discussing Reliable on PracticalMachinist is that these Reliable-only bidders have a side-deal with Reliable and get quantity discounts. So they operate as a hidden reserve fee for Reliable's auctions.

But every time Reliable comes up on one of these threads, I make this challenge: show me any other Seller on Ebay who has bidders who only bid on their auctions.

kendall
03-06-2008, 11:58 AM
If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck.

Oh, and the return address was a MUSIC SHOP.



The duck has always been my philosophy.
Had three bids on items from a single seller once, all three bids were pushed up to my max by a single bidder, after checking his (bidders) history, found that he had never purchased anything remotely related to the items, and had never spent more than $5 on any item. The only way to look at it is that the bidder was there to drive the price up

Didn't feel that I had been 'ripped off' because I always figure the most I am willing to pay, then make that my bid. If I get it for less that's great, if I pay my max that's good too. But I feel that shilling to get the most out of an item is just plain wrong, put a reserve on the item, or a starting bid that you're comfortable with.

On the music shop, Was looking at a couple things by one seller, and he had pretty much the same 'disclaimer' in his listing. 'not familiar with these, never dealt with them before' etc etc etc. checked his history and other auctions, and pretty much all he sold were the same or similar items.
I ended up looking elsewhere.

Ken.

38_Cal
03-06-2008, 11:59 AM
38cal. Who's auction was it? I've run into some shady practices much like you discribe from Hilldebrand which is an iowa auctioneer.

Rusty, it was a California company that came in to do the auction. I don't have their name in my files on the computer, but as I remember, they had offices in Concord and the L.A. area.

David
Montezuma, IA

JCHannum
03-06-2008, 12:10 PM
I have little doubt that there is shill bidding on eBay and other unscrupulous practices by sellers. There are just as many unscrupulous buyers looking to gouge the seller.

I do doubt that Reliable shills. The only items you see from his sales are those that went for some very high price, or have new bidders. I have never seen anything mentioned that went for an unusually low price, and there is no doubt that he loses money on some of his sales.

I also have little doubt that if you went back through my sales, you could find patterns that look like shilling or buyers that bid only my auctions. I do not shill, and, moral and ethical reasons aside, it is simply not worth the time and effort involved for the couple of extra dollars that it might generate.

Are there other sellers that have bidders that bid only on their auctions? I bet there are, I am not going to waste the time looking, but they are there as surely as there are people who will only buy a Chevrolet or Ford.

Milacron of PM
03-06-2008, 01:44 PM
So why are these bulk buyers only buying Reliable's auctions? Why aren't they bidding on your auctions, or Don's, or Machinery Values, or Cal Aero (big LA dealer), or Midwest Machinery...

...or more importantly, why don't those dealers have bulk buyers? Because Reliable has a constant "flow" of new items...lots of items...they are "exciting" to some of these bulk buyers and the "insanely rich, having fun bidding on stuff" buyers. Also, sometimes because Reliable is in LA and so are they. Not many eBay bidders in Dogpatch, SC where I am.

And Machinery Values is a moot point/bad example in this case, as they rarely have actual auctions. Most of their stuff is "Buy it Now" only.

Actually I did have an eBay bulk buyer for awhile... not directly on eBay but that's where he usually saw my stuff and I would make "package deals" on machines later. And guess where he was ? Yep...LA area... and just like Reliable's guys, he had a kinda wierd situation with multiple businesses. Money always came thru, so I kept at it...until one day he was dragging his feet on a $30K deal and I sold one of the machines in the package to someone else...turned out the machine I sold was the machine he wanted the most out of the package, so he got annoyed and I haven't heard from him since ! Which is ok really, since he chised me down on the prices so much I eventually got to the point I didn't half care if he bought or not...

bhjones
03-06-2008, 04:28 PM
You know you're posting on HSM here and not PM, right?

There may be a handful of folks here that poke, prod and needle people for various (or any) reasons, but they're a very small minority. In my experience an incorrect statement or flawed design/setup/idea is simply corrected or ideas are offered to remedy the flaw. No malice or desire to put the "lessor" member in their place.

Perhaps I just have thicker skin from time on other, more combative forums, but I find this site to be very congenial.


But then, some here (not all) feel it is or should be required that we have thousands of post before we are credited with knowing, implying we know or permitted to post with out sarcasm the most basic beliefs or opinions about anything.
Darn, too bad I don't care ;) .

Ken

bhjones
03-06-2008, 04:39 PM
This is the key to maintaining your sanity when bidding on E-Bay. You have to know your product and know the maximum you're willing to pay for it.

Atlas parts are a good example. I've seen a bunch of auctions where worn out parts are sold for more than the retail on new parts. Stupid buyers getting caught up on "Winning" the auction.

Personally I use a sniping service to bid on items. It saves me from having to sit at the computer during the end of an auction. It also saves me some cash by eliminating the desire to outbid the highest bidder if I'm bid to low. I've lost by a few dollars on items I really wanted, but in the end it's not a big deal.


I could care less about shill bidders, or sniping on Ebay.
I bid exactly what I'm comfortable spending, and not a dime more.
If some moron is desperate for it, and outbids me .... OH WELL !!!

JoeFin
03-06-2008, 10:01 PM
Someone once asked Willie Sutton why he robbed banks. His answer was, "Because that's where the money is.".

That is kind of a dumb answer since Reliable always seems to get top dollar for their stuff. So you would say "that is where the money goes"


I posted a simple method to prove Reliable's shilling, simply show all those "shilled" tools being relisted and you will convince me he is shilling.

Problem is this is just one of several times I've notice simular trend with Reliable’s auctions. The shills never win any thing, they just drive up the final price.

You would think after a while they would learn to bid hirer or at least snipe – but then again, that way they would actually Win the item and that would be counter productive to shilling

Given by your vigilant defense of Ebay and Reliable’s auctions, I take it you’re an ebone seller yourself.

Do you have similar bidders?

andy_b
03-07-2008, 12:00 AM
at one point i was looking for a Brown & Sharpe universal dividing head for a B&S mill i have. i put in bids of several hundred dollars on every one that came across ebay for months. it got to the point that i noticed they would all go for somewhere in the $350-$450 range at the time, so i would bid $300 or so on all of them, knowing i would be outbid. i was just screwing around until a "deal" came along (one did, a buy it now for $140). i'm sure someone watching those auctions thought there was some crazy bidder driving the price up on all of them, but the fact they ALWAYS went for more than my bid meant if i didn't put the $300 bid in, i'm certain someone else would have. i just mention this because there are always reasons someone bids what they do, and not all of them are improper.

looking at that Shizuoka auction, it looks like two folks with zero feedback bid it up an extra 10%. between relisting fees and the hassles of dealing with a way of paying for it or not paying for it since a zero-feedback bidder won, etc., i kind of doubt it was shill bidders running the price up.

personally, i never bid on reliabletools auctions because the prices always go way higher than my limit (plus they are on the west coast).

andy b.

Ken_Shea
03-07-2008, 12:32 AM
You know you're posting on HSM here and not PM, right?

There may be a handful of folks here that poke, prod and needle people for various (or any) reasons, but they're a very small minority. In my experience an incorrect statement or flawed design/setup/idea is simply corrected or ideas are offered to remedy the flaw. No malice or desire to put the "lessor" member in their place.

Perhaps I just have thicker skin from time on other, more combative forums, but I find this site to be very congenial.

Don't do PM phjones, lots of experience there just too many site owner attitude clones to suit me, but that's just me.

A prerequisite to posting should not be that one needs "thick skin". There is no good reason to reply in sarcasm when someone states their opinion or be whacked because of a single spelling error. One can disagree and/or offer an argument with out being sarcastic.

Minority of the posters now, yes, that is true, for now maybe. I did say "Some (not all)"
The minority has a way of becoming the majority if we are not watchful.

gnm109
03-07-2008, 12:41 AM
Don't do PM phjones, lots of experience there just too many site owner attitude clones to suit me, but that's just me.

A prerequisite to posting should not be that one needs "thick skin". There is no good reason to reply in sarcasm when someone states their opinion or be whacked because of a single spelling error. One can disagree and/or offer an argument with out being sarcastic.

Minority of the posters now, yes, that is true, for now maybe. I did say "Some (not all)"
The minority has a way of becoming the majority if we are not watchful.

Honestly, I've gotten to where I'm afraid to post much on any of these sites anymore. If you say something that isn't perfect, you can get attacked. So, I mostly just lurk. The only reason I posted on this thread is I do have a lot of experience on eBay.

I've got quite a bit of HSM experience on machinery and I'm an excellent welder but I just mostly lurk. Besides, it's all about learning and improving one's skills and I learn a lot by just reading.

I still go to PM to read but I know better than to post over there. It's all good though.

:)

Ken_Shea
03-07-2008, 12:56 AM
Well from gnm109's post it seems that the "Minority" can effect the "Majority"

His post is exactly what my point is, lets not kid ourselves in thinking this is just an an isolated example.

Good experience not being shared for fear of being ridiculed, attacked or made feel that one's own experience is not of value.

Your not alone gnm109 !!

I am done on this subject, till next time :)

JCHannum
03-07-2008, 08:23 AM
That is kind of a dumb answer since Reliable always seems to get top dollar for their stuff. So you would say "that is where the money goes"



Problem is this is just one of several times I've notice simular trend with Reliableís auctions. The shills never win any thing, they just drive up the final price.

You would think after a while they would learn to bid hirer or at least snipe Ė but then again, that way they would actually Win the item and that would be counter productive to shilling

Given by your vigilant defense of Ebay and Reliableís auctions, I take it youíre an ebone seller yourself.

Do you have similar bidders?

The Willie Sutton reference was an answer to a question why so many people only shop at Reliable. That is where the tools are. It is a good place to start your search for tooling, and it is a good place for onestop shopping for a bulk buyer looking for tools to export.

As far as shill bidding, how do you know which bidder was a shill, the winner or the loser? You simply see a pattern of two new to eBay bidders bidding against each other and assume one is a shill. Maybe both were shills.

I am not defending eBay or Reliable. I am pointing out the fallacy in your method of identifying a shill bidder.

I do sell, but in a much, much lower volume than Reliable. I do have bidders who will ask me to hold items while they bid on other of my auctions to combine shipping. I do have regular buyers. Most of my buyers have some eBay experience, but I do get first time buyers as well. I am a small potato, and doubt I have any dedicated buyers.

JoeFin
03-07-2008, 10:35 AM
Jim

I also sell a very low volume on ebone. My question to you is, "How often do you have multiple 0 feedback buyers simultaneously bidding on your items?

Personally I sort of cringe when I have a 0 feedback buyer bid on my stuff. As pointed out, we all started out some where, but when I started bidding on ebay a lot of sellers would require a minimum (5 or more) positive feed backs in order to be eligible to bid on some of their items.

Iíve bought from Reliable before and yes they do have a lot to offer.

But when Iíve bid on their items, along comes a 0 feedback buyer, with bid history 99% Reliable items, on 4 separate days over the course of 5 months.

When I examined his bid history (because I like to see who I am bidding against) he had the same pattern of bidding through out his bid history. A legitimate buyer has got to get better at bidding sooner or later.

Think about it, if you actually need the tool you have got to buy it from some one some where some day in order to use it to do what you needed it for in the first place when you where ready to lay down your hard earned money.

I see this same pattern of 0 feedback buyers almost exclusively bidding on Reliable tools auctions, bidding up the final price but never winning any thing over and over on their items. On itís face it doesnít appear to be natural market forces.

It is not hard for me to imagine a seller with a lot of commissioned employees or bonus incentive employees who would have plenty to gain from the outcome of these auctions.

JCHannum
03-07-2008, 11:06 AM
I typically list 10-20 items a week on eBay. I don't have the time or inclination to examine each and every bidder, and do not pay any attention to who is bidding. At the end of the listing, someone is the successful bidder, I send an invoice, he pays me and I ship the item. Life goes on.

Very rarely, I run into a non-paying bidder or other scam. It is part of doing business, I report him and block him from my auctions.

Look at my comment on how do you know which bidder is the shill. If there indeed is one, which one is it, either could be shilling. If Reliable does somehow use a network of shills, how does he control them on something over 300 auctions a week? How can he possibly coordinate and control "a lot of commissioned employees or bonus incentive employees" to prevent them from bidding against each other?

The committed Reliable Must Have Shill Bidders theorist will never be dissuaded from his belief.

dan s
03-07-2008, 11:52 AM
some auctions i looked up this morning.

several have multiple 0 or low history bidders. does this mean they are all shilling?

all you ran really assume from these people is that they are either new to ebay, or have no feeedback. I have heard stories of people requesting that the seller not give them feedback as they don't want people to know what they have purchased.

when i bid on an auction i usually go in and look at others bidders bid histories, so that i can figure out what type of person they are.

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=190202941736
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=320225456272
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=120230000839
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=160214406061
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=160214511654
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=250222110049
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=200204235928
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=140212124368
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=320224650380

steve-ma
03-07-2008, 11:52 AM
The Reliable tools discussion comes up so often as to be nauseating. I think where the main frustration comes from is that everyone thinks they can get a bargain because they see a Bridgeport starting at $0.99. As soon as some other bidder starts bidding early or often and your imagined bargain startsí slipping away, the tendency is to cry foul. And I agree, it is whining.

Reliable is on my favorite sellers list. Not because I buy a lot from them, but because of the variety of stuff that they have and the prices start low. Itís not unusual for me to scan their new listings with a cup of coffee in the morning before I go to work. I sometimes bid a dollar or two on items I would like for my home shop. And sometimes I do bid more later as the auction gets to the end, if I really want the item. I have not won a Reliable auction in a very long time, and yet I still follow the same pattern. I think a lot of folks do.

I doubt that they need to shill their auctions. Reliable knows that there are a bunch of folks who watch their stuff, and that the likelihood that items are going to go for dirt cheap is very low. Iíve sold on eBay, and it takes a bit of intestinal fortitude to put a $500 or a $5000 item on with no reserve starting at $0.99. I wouldnít do it!!! I donít have the following that they have.

My eBay philosophy has changed over the years. I noticed that I was succumbing to the Ďbidding frenzyí and paying too much for things. Now I usually watch many auctions for the type of item I want, sometimes for months. Do this, and you start to get an idea of what the item is worth Ė ďthe market priceĒ. (As someone said above about the B & S attachment, if you know that they usually go in the $350 range, you start to realize that you are not going to score one for $50.) Then I bid what I am willing to spend for an item, and walk away. No sniping. No whining. Thatís it!!

Remember, there is always Craigís List if you donít like eBay!!!

steverice
03-07-2008, 01:16 PM
When I go to E-Bay I never bid on anything that Reliable has offered.

After trying unsuccessfully (check spelling) on some items, I came to the unsupported conclusion that there was somthing rotten in Denmark.

After leaving Reliable behind I have had great experiances on E-Bay.

JoeFin
03-07-2008, 01:20 PM
And I agree, it is whining.

Show me 1 seller that has as many 0 feedback bidders, with 50 or more total bids and 80% of all bids with 1 seller, driving up the auction prices and I'll be quiet.

I'll bet you a 6" milling vise you can't

speedsport
03-07-2008, 01:42 PM
I still can't see the problem here, is it that you think somebody is making you bid more than you want to or that you could win the auction for less money if they weren't bidding?, if you don't want to pay the price DON"T BID!, what is so hard to understand here?

JoeFin
03-07-2008, 02:11 PM
I still can't see the problem here, is it that you think somebody is making you bid more than you want to or that you could win the auction for less money if they weren't bidding?, if you don't want to pay the price DON"T BID!, what is so hard to understand here?


I'll bet you a 6" milling vise you can't

same offer Steve

dan s
03-07-2008, 03:03 PM
Show me 1 seller that has as many 0 feedback bidders, with 50 or more total bids and 80% of all bids with 1 seller, driving up the auction prices and I'll be quiet.

I'll bet you a 6" milling vise you can't

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=280205162658

at time of post:
76 bids
2 different zero feed back sellers
1 bidder (14 feedback rating)with over 50 bids

Happy?

dan s
03-07-2008, 03:07 PM
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=170198462515 124 bids

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=110229714897 230 bids

http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=320224490611 307 bids

steve-ma
03-07-2008, 03:23 PM
Joe, you might owe Dan a vice.
And stop whining.
Steve

JoeFin
03-07-2008, 03:44 PM
Joe, you might owe Dan a vice.
And stop whining.
Steve

Right Steve

The bidder only bid on 3 items unlike some of the shills I've seen with 80 - 100 items bid on.

Read what I'm saying both in the original post prior to passing judgement. Your spending a great deal of effort to disprove my statement without ever reading my post

and stop BS-ing

Bill Pace
03-07-2008, 03:56 PM
Fellas....

This has deteriorated into another "aircraft aluminum" mess---how about letting it die. There will be no winners...

dan s
03-07-2008, 05:10 PM
lets examine some of your posts Joe.

in this post you claim that two bidders are shill bidding.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=339877&postcount=8

1. you claim user 4***b
only bids on Reliable Tool auctions
How is this guy a shill he has placed 2 bids one one item in the last 30 days.

2. you claim user a***t
only bids on Reliable Tool auctions
How is this guy a shill he has placed 7 bids one one item in the last 30 days.

and for this post.
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=340412&postcount=59

shills I've seen with 80 - 100 items bid on. how about some proof?


Given the the fact that you have yet to provide a link to anything that even remotely looks like a shill, why don't you go dig one up or just be quiet.

Milacron of PM
03-07-2008, 10:29 PM
Look at my comment on how do you know which bidder is the shill. If there indeed is one, which one is it, either could be shilling. If Reliable does somehow use a network of shills, how does he control them on something over 300 auctions a week? How can he possibly coordinate and control "a lot of commissioned employees or bonus incentive employees" to prevent them from bidding against each other?

The committed Reliable Must Have Shill Bidders theorist will never be dissuaded from his belief. Yep. Plus it's been proved time and time again that Reliable *looses money* on many of their higher ticket items. A number of PM members have observed them buying an item such as a Deckel mill at live auction and know exactly what it sold for.... and then we see the same item selling on eBay for $1,000 less a week later.

So if they have a shills, the shills are doing a pretty piss poor job of it.

andy_b
03-07-2008, 10:34 PM
i don't get some of those examples posted. i do the same thing sometimes just to screw around. who's to say it isn't some bored kid with nothing better to do. looking at the times, half of those bids are at 7am or noon EST, just when some punk would be eating breakfast or lunch. methinks some folks are still expecting to get $5000 items for $50 like back in the early days of sleezebay, and are upset when things start going for actual market value. as others said, if you don't like the price or seller, don't bid.

andy b.

matador
03-07-2008, 10:45 PM
As for the original question,why e-bay doesn't intervene?E-bay is a business making money.They are not going to kill the golden goose.The higher the bid,the more money in e-bay's till.They don't give a damn who pays,as long as they see the money.I don't use e-bay,but if I did ,I would set a max price,and go no higher.That kills any shill's effect.

Ken_Shea
03-07-2008, 10:53 PM
I should hasten to say that there are always exceptions to what seems to be the rule.

However, it is probably a safe bet to categorize the following into a single group, driven by a single motive, "Greed".

Used car
Antiques
Coin and stamp
Precious metal
Auction
and last but not least
Machinery
If they don't use shills it is because they have discovered that shills did not work for them.

And some times firearms dealers :D

Roy Andrews
03-08-2008, 12:22 AM
you made the statement that these zero feedback bidders NEVER win the auctions. how can they be this smart as to never win. that means they know what the winning bidder is going to bid and only take him that far and they are never wrong. the CIA was studying the wrong paranormals all those years. i'm not saying that they are an honest company but making that statement along with the poor diction and spelling gives you little credability and makes you sound like a poor loser.

kendall
03-08-2008, 03:23 AM
you made the statement that these zero feedback bidders NEVER win the auctions. how can they be this smart as to never win. that means they know what the winning bidder is going to bid and only take him that far and they are never wrong. .


It's very easy to retract a bid on Ebay.

I've done it twice, once when I misplaced a decimal, and once when the wife came in and told me she'd toasted her transmission shortly after placing a bid.

Ken.

Milacron of PM
03-08-2008, 09:51 AM
It's very easy to retract a bid on Ebay.
Ken. Moot point since they would need to retract the bid seconds before the auction ended, which is impossible. Also there is a notice placed when a bid is retracted.

steve-ma
03-08-2008, 11:33 AM
joefin,
I am not trying to start an arguement with you. Years ago when I first discovered eBay, (maybe 1999?) I would have agreed with you 100%. I suspected shilling and was PO'd about it and I too reported suspected instances to eBay (to no avail).

But then I realized two things. Since in those days I was making twice the salary I am today and I am very competitive, and I hated to lose auctions, I realized I was winning a lot but way over spending for items. Stupid. So I stopped getting into the bidding frenzy and just placed a proxy bid for what I wanted to spend for an item and that was it.

Then once I took the emotion out of it, I realized that shills and snipers just didn't matter to me anymore.

As folks above have pointed out, using eBay is an option, its a choice. If you think an auction (on line or in person) is fishy, walk away! To me it's like the way I handle shady auto mechanics, over priced restaurants, or RedSox tickets that resell for 10 times the face value.... I avoid them.

I would not want to argue one way or another if shilling goes on or not becuase it's difficult to prove or disprove. My gut says that for a lot of the reasons people have cited above, it's less prevalent than you think.

lazlo
03-08-2008, 11:54 AM
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=280205162658

at time of post:
76 bids
2 different zero feed back sellers
1 bidder (14 feedback rating)with over 50 bids

Happy?

Not a single one of those bidders has more than 20% bid history with the seller.

Reliable is the rare (only?) Ebay seller who has groupies that only bid on his auctions. That's why it keeps coming up in threads on the Ebay Safe Harbor Forum, here and on PM.

Funny thing about Reliable -- people are absolutely convinced one way or another that they don't shill, or that they do...

lazlo
03-08-2008, 11:59 AM
http://offer.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewBids&item=170198462515 124 bids

Also bad examples Dan. All the bidders on those auctions have less than 16% bid activity with the sellers, except M**M, who has 79% bid activity with the Seller, but that's because he's trying to buy a PS3 (game console), and he just registered on Ebay, and has bid on 3 consecutive PS3 systems, 2 which were from that seller.

mwechtal
03-08-2008, 11:59 AM
So, here's a question. In some of those bids that were posted the bidders were raising their bids several times with nobody bidding in between. Why would someone keep raising their bid with noone else bidding? I must be missing something.

Mike

lazlo
03-08-2008, 12:05 PM
That's the Ebay proxy bidding system Mike:

If you place a $100 bid on an item, but the current high bid is $50, your bid will show as $51 (the next highest bid increment). As other bidders bid on the same item, the Ebay proxy system will keep upping your bid from $51 up to the $100 maximum bid you placed. So it will show on the bid history that you placed a bunch of bids from $51 to $100, where you actually placed one bid.

This is one of the big reasons people snipe: it's human nature that if someone sees that "Mike" has outbid them by $1, then they want to "win" back the highest bid. So they'll keep "probing" your bid, notching it up $1 or $2 at a time, until they hit your maximum bid of $100. In other words, if you follow Ebay's advice "Bid early, bid often", then you end up paying more money for the item, because the other bidders have several days before the end of the auction to try to knock you off as high bidder.

dockrat
03-08-2008, 12:53 PM
Mike...click the "show automatic bids" link in the bid history page and it makes it all a lot clearer

Milacron of PM
03-08-2008, 01:27 PM
Funny thing about Reliable -- people are absolutely convinced one way or another that they don't shill, or that they do...Soooo, even after all this discussion, you are still in the latter camp ? Thought you'd be ready to throw in the towel finally on this, but still clinging to that illusion of your Sherlock Holmes snooping abilities eh ? ;)

mwechtal
03-08-2008, 03:09 PM
Lazlo and Dockrat,
Yeah, that makes sense now.

Thanks.
Mike