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loosescrewmt
05-08-2008, 08:58 PM
Walking out of my local provider of libations, I saw an ad on the board for a monarch 12 ee. I've read about the 10 EE and was wondering if this was the bigger brother of the 10? the price isn't all that bad for out here in the boonies, so I'm going to give the number a call...can't hurt to at least look at it (at least not too much?)

beckley23
05-08-2008, 09:43 PM
The "old" height(round dials) 10 EE swings approx 12-1/2", the "new" height(square dials) swings approx 13-1/4".
There is a 1000 EE, 13 EE, etc, but these are much larger machines, and seem to be very rare.
Harry

pcarpenter
05-08-2008, 10:15 PM
More generally, Monarch seems to have rated most or all of its lathes based on the swing over the carriage. This is much more conservative and perhaps more honest, but it would seem would put them at a competitive disadvantage.

I have a friend who has a 12CK. It swings 14", but 12" at the carriage.

Paul

JRouche
05-08-2008, 10:49 PM
This is much more conservative and perhaps more honest, but it would seem would put them at a competitive disadvantage.
Paul

:) Guess they figured out a way to compensate through other means. JR

loosescrewmt
05-08-2008, 11:10 PM
spent some time digging around on the web, can't seem to get google to find such a beastie. I did spend quite a bit of time reading the PM forum on monarchs. They sound like they are quite interesting machines. The note on the board said it was a 1941 build (I think at least) so it's a bit older. Nothing noted as to what was included beyond a taper attachment.
I already have a lathe- a newer chinese, but this would probably be a big step up in precision capability, depending on condition. I'll just have to give the number a call.

rantbot
05-09-2008, 12:01 AM
spent some time digging around on the web, can't seem to get google to find such a beastie.Don't know about Tony Griffiths' site?
http://www.lathes.co.uk/monarch/index.html

Beware - the drive electronics of the 10EEs are complex, and the obsolete electronic components are not available. The drive systems are often gutted nowadays and replaced entirely with modern electronic do-funnies, which is not a trivial project.

lazlo
05-09-2008, 12:30 AM
Don't know about Tony Griffiths' site?
http://www.lathes.co.uk/monarch/index.html

He's asking about a 12 EE, which I've never heard of. I think the seller may mean the Monarch C ("CK"), which like Paul says, was advertised as a 12x30 toolroom lathe.

rantbot
05-09-2008, 04:12 AM
He's asking about a 12 EE, which I've never heard of. I think the seller may mean the Monarch C ("CK"), which like Paul says, was advertised as a 12x30 toolroom lathe.
... D'oh! ...

rkepler
05-09-2008, 09:39 AM
Beware - the drive electronics of the 10EEs are complex, and the obsolete electronic components are not available. The drive systems are often gutted nowadays and replaced entirely with modern electronic do-funnies, which is not a trivial project.

First - a lot of the 10EEs have a motor/generator drive, and these are about as complex as a straight motor. About all that's required is greasing the bearings and replacing brushes & belts when they're worn. After that comes the tube drive that uses 2 C16Js and 2 3C23s for the motor control. All of the parts needed can be sourced (excluding the speed control rheostats) and I've talked several folks through repairs over the phone. Following the first tube drive was a second tube drive that has a different set of problems and can be a bit difficult to diagnose, but is still repairable. There were 2 more drive types that used early TTL and such that I would consider unrepairable, but that's a fraction of the machine production, maybe less than 5%.

But replacing the drive has been done by a lot of folks, from a straight replacement of the DC motor with an AC on VFD, to replacing with a high power servo motor. Pretty much any of the motor replacement jobs would be a bit large for a home shop with a small lathe and drill press, but if you're considering a 10EE you're likely a bit larger than the average home shop.

HTRN
05-10-2008, 05:26 AM
Heck, if the motor is still good, just convert to a modern DC drive system. Sabina motors (http://www.sabinamotors.com/DC_Drives_s/20.htm) makes drives for this purpose, I think..

Not cheap though.


HTRN

macona
05-10-2008, 01:14 PM
The only modern DC drives that work for the original motor are VERY expensive, most likely more than the lathe costs.

The problem is the motor needs a 240v armature voltage and 120v field. And to get past its base speed it needs field weakening as well.

FWIW, I have a complete running drive system I am going to be selling off out of my 10EE that I pulled to install my servo drive.

loosescrewmt
05-10-2008, 04:33 PM
So I went and looked at the lathe this morning. It is indeed a 10 EE, build date 12-1941. It's a motor-generator unit, 3 phase 440 volt, not currently under power.

I took a few tools with me, and did a bit of checking. There isn't much if any runout at the spindle nose, about .020 play on both axis. The geartrain feels pretty smooth when spun by hand in most of the gears. (my arm got a bit tired spinning all of the combinations).

The ways look to be in pretty good shape as well, no major wear over most of the travel. There seems to be about .002-.003 wear around the headstock on the V way, but the flat side isn't as bad. (that was a little hard to tell, as it took a bit to get the gunk buffed off )

It does have the taper attachment, but is missing a tailstock, any of the steadys that may have come with it, and only 1 3 jaw (5 or so inch?) burnard chuck. At some point, a BXA sized QC toolpost has been added.

Overall condition seems to be decent for a machine of that vintage- it's not leaking much, all of the sight glasses still read as full. Seller is asking 2500 for the machine, is this a fair price??

lane
05-10-2008, 07:25 PM
I think $ 2500.00 would be a steal around here all i ever saw were $12000.00 - $20000.00 +

macona
05-11-2008, 04:12 AM
Ouch. Thats high with no tailstock. Tailstocks run $300 up. Then you get to scrape it in to match your lathe.

The not under power is a killer too. Unless you see it moving under is own power you dont know half of whats going on.

The MG unit can be wired for 240. But the main contactor coil will be for 480. That contactor is hard to find, but yuou may be able to find a 240v coil. Or you could install a small 240 to 480 transformer to get the contactor to close.

Does the oiler in the apron work? Is is putting fresh way lube on the ways as you crank it back and forth?

As it sits I wouldnt pay over $1500 for it.

When I bought my 42 10EE last year I got original 8" 4 and 3 jaw, dog plate, face plate, 5c collet nose, drawbar, steady and follow rests, centers, drill chucks, bed stops, and a trav-a-dial. There was no bed wear (Although there was carriage wear). I paid $3000 for it. He also gave me a NOS 6"*Buck adjust tru 6 jaw for another $250.

This seems to be a pretty average price. They dont sell for over 10k unless you have a pristine I/M model with the works. Only time you see most EEs over 10k is from a dealer.

Go over to the Monarch forum on PracticalMachinist.com Thats where the greatest repository of monarch owners reside.

loosescrewmt
05-11-2008, 11:20 AM
I've been reading on the pm forum untill my brain exploded...

not too sure if the oiler is working or not- the machine has been sitting for several years as is, so I'd expect that the oiler system is gunked up.

I had a feeling that the asking price was too high, but that's the norm out here.

macona
05-11-2008, 04:04 PM
Wheres out here? Put your location in your profile so we can see where you are.

Swarf&Sparks
05-11-2008, 05:25 PM
Yup, and we get p1ssed on for buying chiwanese lathes!
I'm making parts, not just swarf.
See above, my location.

lazlo
05-11-2008, 05:43 PM
Yup, and we get p1ssed on for buying chiwanese lathes!

It's like buying an old Ferrari. They're finicky and can take a lot of skill to get them working, but once you do, you have a Ferrari :)


See above, my location.

Macona is asking where the OP (LooseScrew) is located, since machine tool prices here are highly regional.

The price seems high, especially without being able to turn it on. Replacing the spindle bearings is a major PITA on the 10EE, and the drives can be problematic, although the Motor/Generator is the simplest (and loudest ;) ) of the various drive systems.

wierdscience
05-11-2008, 05:52 PM
The drives in those lathes are nice,but your not buying it for the drive your buying for the ways/spindle/thread changes etc.

Almost anything can be used for a drive.A 5-7-1/2hp 3~ motor and VFD is one way,another is a servo drive and still another is a hydrostatic drive.

loosescrewmt
05-11-2008, 11:29 PM
Gotta edit the profile- location is western Montana. (where the men are men and the sheep are....nervous) and the machine prices tend to run a bit higher than other places with better supply. I've been looking to upgrade my shop with the intention of starting my own business in the next couple of years, so I've been on the lookout for a better lathe and a bigger mill than I have at the moment.

macona
05-12-2008, 03:54 AM
Still to high even for western montana. I drove from Portland to LA to get my 10EE. If you want a good machine you need to be prepared to drive for it.

Without it running, no tailstock, and almost zip tooling consider it a parts machine.