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Errol Groff
05-15-2008, 10:57 PM
Had a bit of excitment today.

http://neme-s.org/Fire/a_hot_time_in_the_old_town_tonig.htm

Melted metal content

mr bill
05-15-2008, 11:01 PM
with the price of scrap metal what it is these days you should get your $8 back. not going to help much mowing the lawn though. Hope no one got hurt.

wierdscience
05-15-2008, 11:47 PM
Humm...Viking funeral for an MTD in disguise?

Hope you didn't get hurt.

Rookie machinist
05-16-2008, 01:28 AM
Guess nothing burns like a deere too.

andy_b
05-16-2008, 01:35 AM
Errol,

i say take it to school in the fall. have your students evaluate what failed, and then have them rebuild it. plus, it gives you the excuse to buy something like a nice John Deere X500.

andy b.

macona
05-16-2008, 02:20 AM
That thing was "made" by Weedeater. Probably really made by MTD. Just like the low end JD's.

Friends of mine have the JD 324 (I think) that is a pretty nice machine. But still can beat the little Kubotas with a 2 or 3 cylinder diesel.

Oldbrock
05-16-2008, 03:00 AM
I saw the neighbor's Gilson go up in a similar ball of fire but that fire started when poplar fluff gathered around the muffler. I was melba too. Peter:eek:

Evan
05-16-2008, 09:39 AM
Nothing wrong with MTD that a few mods can't fix. :D

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/cab1.jpg

Carld
05-16-2008, 10:29 AM
So, did the demonstration of what happens when a mower catches fire go well and did the fire dept get good video of the event?

Did you set up a failure to start the fire or did you just put some gas on it for the demo?

aboard_epsilon
05-16-2008, 10:38 AM
had time to take pics of it ...but not time to get the garden hose out !!!

all the best.markj

hornluv
05-16-2008, 11:14 AM
Guess nothing burns like a deere too.

Probably not the kind of branding JD is looking for, but funny as hell! :D

garyphansen
05-16-2008, 11:20 AM
Gas cost too much to waste it on cutting grass! Let it grow long for the natural look. The deer need to eat too! If anyone complains, just tell them You are doing your part to stop gobal warming. Gary P. Hansen

Willy
05-16-2008, 01:20 PM
had time to take pics of it ...but not time to get the garden hose out !!!

all the best.markj

That's what I thought.
The grass looks pretty green, surely the hose has got to be closer than the camera. Or at least more effective in a fire situation than a camera.
If it's insured it is at least well documented.

Alistair Hosie
05-16-2008, 03:22 PM
your lucky it didn't happen here there are no such things as .A FULL TANK FOR $8that's a joke right more like eighty or more here.Alistair

Errol Groff
05-16-2008, 05:10 PM
When the fire started (small gas leak which got out of hand) I went in the house and got the extinguisher. My wife was afraid that the thing would blow in a giant ball of fire like a movie scene so she wanted me to stay well away from it. I have not been married for 42 years without learning a thing or two so I listened to her. That plus I never really liked that mower anyway.

Never having had the opportunity to photograph a flaming mower before I got the camera and started shooting the conflagration.

The fire guy asked if we had a hose and when my wife said that she thought one does not put water on a gasoline fire. He replied that they do it all the time with car fires. Live and learn.

All in all, no one was hurt, except the mower, I got some nifty photos and an interesting tale to tell.

As to the $8.00 loss of gas (petrol to Alistair) the tank was only two gallon U.S. capacity.

The thing was indeed a Weedeater brand mower, no longer available as far as I can tell. My experience with MTD products has been very good. They tend to have in stock parts for machines which may easily be considered ancient.

Well, tomorrow we are off to the grand re-opening of the Saugus Iron Works National Historic Site. Photos from a previous visit are at

http://neme-s.org/Iron_Guild_2006/iron_guild.htm

Regards to all,

Errol Groff

Carld
05-16-2008, 05:46 PM
Well heck Errol, you should have thrown some kerosene on it and helped it along. I wouldn't have called the fire dept. His statement that they use water on gas fire just supports my opinion of firemen.

You are not supposed to use water on a liquid fuel fire, it just spreads the fire. I quess if you can put hundreds of gallons of water on it in a matter of seconds in a mist type stream, well maybe.

If our home caught fire I would rather they stay away and let me handle it. All they do is tear everything up and put water all over everything whether it is burning or not. When they leave everything in the house is soaked and the roof is destroyed and the house has to be torn down and completely replaced.

Joel
05-16-2008, 06:06 PM
Sorry Carl, you are clearly speaking well out of any areas of expertise you may posses.

Weston Bye
05-16-2008, 06:25 PM
...You are not supposed to use water on a liquid fuel fire, it just spreads the fire. I quess if you can put hundreds of gallons of water on it in a matter of seconds in a mist type stream, well maybe.


When I was in the Navy they taught us how to extinguish great pools of burning fuel oil, with nothing but a fire hose.

That was 35 years ago. Maybe fires today are different. :o

barts
05-16-2008, 06:33 PM
What you don't want to do is pour a small amount of water into a burning oil fire in the kitchen - this causes the resulting violent steam expansion to blast the burning oil all over.... in the burning lawnmower case, if you have a hose capable of several gallons/min, you will just cool the fire down very quickly and also deprive it of oxygen. If you had a garden hose in your kitchen,
you could use that on oil fires really easily...

Fires need heat, fuel and air to burn. A large amount of water is really good at stealing the heat (my steamboat boiler is a good example!) and also depriving the fire of air....

- Bart

pcarpenter
05-16-2008, 06:37 PM
No....*Carl* is not supposed to use water to extinguish a petroleum fire. He clearly does not know how:D

Actually, I am sure that's a proper civillian answer since you could float bits of flaming petroleum to other areas if you weren't careful. My uncle is a captain with the Wichta, KS fire department. I will try to remember to ask him. I do recall when I was a small kid and he was stationed not far from us in the Air Force, he pointed out the giant fake steel "airframes" that they supposedly doused with 1000 gallons of jet fuel and put out as practice...again with water. I believe the answer is that its fogged above the liquid base to deprive oxygen. Certainly they don't blast water into a big puddle of burning liquid.

My guess is that its probably not that unsafe to put out a fire like that...unlike some other burning vehicles. The reason I say that is that I would think that a plastic fuel tank is not prone to a BLEVY (boiling liquid explosion). I would guess that they melt away allowing the fuel to burn rather than explode.

Paul

john hobdeclipe
05-16-2008, 06:41 PM
Sheesh, such a waste of perfectly good gasoline.

Evan
05-16-2008, 07:48 PM
I would guess that they melt away allowing the fuel to burn rather than explode.

That's my experience. I watched a drunk roll his car end over end a few times in front of the house we lived in 30 years ago. It landed upside down and the battery started a fire under the hood. It eventually reached the back and the gas tank "blew". Except "blew" is much too strong a word. Without a sound the fire suddenly became about 3 times larger for a little while.

garyphansen
05-16-2008, 08:02 PM
In the movies crashed cars always blow up. Does, it EVER happen in real life? I know in real life shooting holes in a gas tank will never even result in a fire unless shooting tracers or there is another source of inightion. Gary P. Hansen

ERBenoit
05-16-2008, 09:35 PM
Well heck Errol, you should have thrown some kerosene on it and helped it along. I wouldn't have called the fire dept. His statement that they use water on gas fire just supports my opinion of firemen.

You are not supposed to use water on a liquid fuel fire, it just spreads the fire. I quess if you can put hundreds of gallons of water on it in a matter of seconds in a mist type stream, well maybe.

If our home caught fire I would rather they stay away and let me handle it. All they do is tear everything up and put water all over everything whether it is burning or not. When they leave everything in the house is soaked and the roof is destroyed and the house has to be torn down and completely replaced.

Are you blind?? It is a burning lawn mower, not a pool of flamable liquid.

Have you ever been or even tried being a firefighter???? If you have no idea what it is like to be one, you obviously have no idea why certain things happen. Learn a little before you spout off.

I guess I now know your opinion of my un-paid profession. :( You can have you "opinion" of firefighters today, yet even if they know your "opinion" they will help you tomorrow.

Put on the turnout gear and take a little walk with me, with a wind chill of -30 or heat index of 117*, through some of what I have seen and done in the past twenty years.

I have rescued one person from a burning building, had to watch a woman blame herself for hours while her son lay dead at the base of the basement stairs, victim of accidental electrocution, seen four kids burned beyond recognition, watched one kid die as we were extricating from his wrecked car, seen 150 persons lose their homes in twenty minutes when their apartment building burned, heard countless screams of anguish from those in panic and pain. :(

It's not all bad.

Handing an old woman a sooty, wet photograph of her deceased husband, handing a little girl her cat that she thought would never come out of the tree, countless times I have heard THANK YOU for helping us. :)

Can I be pi**ed off here ?? :mad:

Apparently you are amongst the un-grateful b*st*rds that every firefighter on the face of the earth puts it on the line for. I lose sleep, time from work and family, etc. etc. etc. for free, and at my own personal safety for complete strangers.

I wouldn't trade it for anything.

I Thank You for your support of those in the firefighting sector of public safety.

Please keep your opinon of law enforcemnt to yourself.

ERBenoit
05-16-2008, 09:45 PM
In the movies crashed cars always blow up. Does, it EVER happen in real life? I know in real life shooting holes in a gas tank will never even result in a fire unless shooting tracers or there is another source of inightion. Gary P. Hansen

That's Hollywood. If the gas tank gets compromised, the gas leaks out and is introduced to an ignition source. That's how they "blow up". Since an automotive gas (liquid) tank is not pressurized, it would be very difficult to "blow up". Unless the tank has been tampered with to prevent venting, the tank will self vent long before it "blows up".

Now tires, shocks, and gas struts are a different story.

Joel
05-17-2008, 02:24 AM
I quess if you can put hundreds of gallons of water on it in a matter of seconds in a mist type stream, well maybe.
What, this isn't your 'maybe' effective SOP for a lawn mower fire Eric? :rolleyes:

Agreed about the gas tank explosions, its just not a problem. Tires sure can get your attention at times and magnesium can prove to be quite entertaining. :D


Speaking of explosions, this is where I spent much of Monday. There were about 3 dozen drums total, most containing Ethanol:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v186/JoelinTX/EthDrums.jpg

hitnmiss
05-17-2008, 11:00 AM
About 3 years ago 4 of us were coming back from dinner and saw a blaze near a house, looked very recently started.

We drove to the house and a guy was calmly watching his newer Ranger rover with a under hood fire about 4 foot from the attached garage. We called 911 and in 20 seconds or so the fire started spreading into the neighbors tree and really got going.

We had to snap him out of his blank stare, it was like he was a overloaded zombie.

We asked if he had a hose and he acted like that was the best idea he'd ever heard.. Amazing. The hose turned out to be about 5' away!

We got the hose connected (winter) and just turned on the water when the firemen showed up.

I can still see that guy staring at his car, house and fence going up like he was at a campfire warming hisself. I wondered if I could freeze like that in a similar situation.

Dawai
05-17-2008, 11:14 AM
No gas tanks don't explode like the movies.

I got a buddy who welds tanks up.. he wants them full of gas. He says the fumes is what explodes and purges them with either argon or exhaust.

I can remember filling a jeep tank with water and trying to braze it up.. it popped about two or three times blowing out several dents.

Fire is your friend as long as controlled.. when it gets out of control it is your worst nightmare. THE worst pain in the world is a burn I think.

I can remember old soldiers talking about strapping a stick of dynamite to a GI can of gas.. how it would flatten a building. OUR gas-vapor bomb (daisy cutter) is similar. OPPS>>> a daisy cutter bomb is a conventional bomb.. look up gasoline bomb.. first used in Afganistan

J Tiers
05-17-2008, 11:17 AM
Well, I think Carl is a bit strong in his opinion......

But, My father-in-law (also named Carl) had a shop fire...... caused by arcing in a wire, probable rodent damage.

Limited to one corner of the shop/garage.....

The local FD put it out in short order,..... but then soaked the whole rest of the place.

For instance, they OPENED EVERY DRAWER of some (metal) rollarounds on THE OTHER SIDE of the shop, 25 feet away from the fire, and carefully filled each drawer with water...... soaking mics, calipers, and tools of all kinds.

Then, he couldn't go in and save anything from rusting, because it had to be "investigated" in case he had started it to file a claim (investigation was apparently several days later)........ he finally said ^&^%$ it and got the WD40* and started in.... But he had to toss out quite a bit of stuff that was simply ruined for no reason by the FD.

* WD40 was naturally being used for its water-displacing action...... for those who will quibble

Carld
05-17-2008, 01:49 PM
Precisely my point J Tiers, the fire dept. always goes above and beyond the cause of the fire and tears up everything they can and won't allow you to clean up or protect anything untill they feel like it.

By the way, the fire dept is not a law enforcement agency, they are just fire fighters but they do think they are the police when they get to a fire. They can and do have people arrested for "interfering with their fire".

So I pissed some of you off huh! I have always been told not to use water on a petroleum fire, to only use a chemical extinguisher on it. As I said, if you have a hose that puts out a mist with a large amount of water it will/may control the fire. A garden hose on a large gas fire is not a good idea. You have to have the right equipment to fight a fire.

To stop any fire you have to take away the oxygen and heat. That is what fire extinguishers are designed to do.

Yes, I have a strong opinion on this and I don't keep my opinions to myself. An opinion is just that and your opinion is just as important as mine is.

Yeah, and the next post will say, opinions are like assholes, everyone has one, so give me your opinion, it's just as valuable as mine.

BTW, I won't chastise you for your opinion as you did me for my opinion.

ERBenoit
05-17-2008, 03:23 PM
Precisely my point J Tiers, the fire dept. always goes above and beyond the cause of the fire and tears up everything they can and won't allow you to clean up or protect anything untill they feel like it.

Not all departments act as you describe. This is a matter of department training and member control. If they feel that opening up every wall, ceiling, floor, closet, drawer etc. etc., and soaking everything is what is required for fire extinguishment, they need more training or leashes on thier firefighters. What was the name of that department again? I missed it.


By the way, the fire dept is not a law enforcement agency, they are just fire fighters but they do think they are the police when they get to a fire. They can and do have people arrested for "interfering with their fire".

Can and does happen.


So I pissed some of you off huh!

Yes you did. You painted all firefighters with the same brush, as home destroying renegades, and I didn't like it. We are not out to tear up people's homes. If you don't know what is involved, it might appear that way, but it is not.

Any home or property owner can question the actions of the fire department if they feel damage beyond necessary was caused. Yes, fire departments can, and have been sued for damages. Some departments have lost in the courts and had to pay up.

Joel
05-17-2008, 04:23 PM
For instance, they OPENED EVERY DRAWER of some (metal) rollarounds on THE OTHER SIDE of the shop, 25 feet away from the fire, and carefully filled each drawer with water...... soaking mics, calipers, and tools of all kinds.
Inexcusable. My crews would get the chewing out of the century if they did something like that. We train them to treat property as if it was their own. While this is not always realistically possible, we do pretty well. Some people don't probably don't know much about overhauling a fire. You do have to pull a lot of ceiling, wall or whatever, put water in drawers, etc. to put out all of the hot spots - lest the fire rekindle, and believe me, they will if you do not do a careful job. This laborious task comes after the intensity of putting out the fire so it is easy to get lazy. We train that there are no rekindles - you just didn't put all of the fire out - which is even more inexcusable.
On the fire pictured above, we managed to save the majority of machinery in the unit next door (which became quickly involved from the explosions) and was no small feat. Curiously, they had a newish Grizzly bandsaw exactly like the one I just got from Enco. The Grizzly seemed to have a slightly better fit an finish. :D



the fire dept. always goes above and beyond the cause of the fire and tears up everything they can
ALWAYS? Or is 'always' actually one experience and some anecdotal stories? I am willing to bet that I have been on a whole lot more fires than you have and 'never' is my personal experience.


By the way, the fire dept is not a law enforcement agency, they are just fire fighters but they do think they are the police when they get to a fire. They can and do have people arrested for "interfering with their fire".
Actually, we own the scene and are responsible for the safety of EVERYONE there, as well as the preservation of evidence. I gotta tell you, people with attitudes like yours (fortunately, not many) make my job all that more difficult because I have to babysit the idiots to keep them from either getting themselves injured or causing a host of other problems at a time when our hands are already full. BTW, a fire marshal investigates the fire, not the firefighters. Of the last 3 fires I have been on, ALL needed careful investigations because there was foul play. 2 were arson, 1 was murder/arson. Kind of heartwarming to risk your life at 3am for no pay because jerks have to spread the joy of their chosen but twisted lifestyles.


An opinion is just that and your opinion is just as important as mine is.
No, it is not.
Well, 'important' would be your hang up. As for more correct, on the other hand...
The difference being, obviously, that SOME opinions are backed by years of education, observation, training, experience and practice, while other opinions are a slap in the face to those who actually participate in such activities.

Obviously you or someone you know has had a bad experience like J Tiers father in law, but let me ask you if you will condemn to idiocy all machinists because ONE has made you a bad part?

If you are protected by a volunteer department, pay them and I'll bet they can afford to be more careful. Otherwise put a sock in it, because they are giving way more to their communities than you can possibly imagine.

ERBenoit
05-17-2008, 05:46 PM
Thanks Joel, I realized I was late for something while I was "replying". You saved me a lot of typing. :D

Carld
05-17-2008, 07:31 PM
Well, I guess I got a little carried away and ranted on some burning issues of mine. No, you can't slam everyone into the same pot so for that I'm sorry.

We have a volunteer fire dept here supported by county taxes. They SEEM to be well trained but I have not followed them to fires to see. No one here to my knowledge is complaining.

Several places we have lived the fire dept was not good and some would not call them for that reason. If you were not a paid member they may come to the fire and keep it from spreading outside the building but not put the fire out. We were a member of all the fire districts we lived in primarily to give them funds to work with.

I hope we never have a fire but I have fire extinguishers in the home and shop and will use them. Being a volunteer fireman is not easy.

Joel
05-17-2008, 09:07 PM
Well, I guess I got a little carried away and ranted on some burning issues of mine. No, you can't slam everyone into the same pot so for that I'm sorry.
Thanks, I and others appreciate it.



We have a volunteer fire dept here supported by county taxes. They SEEM to be well trained but I have not followed them to fires to see. No one here to my knowledge is complaining.
If no one is complaining, they must be doing a LOT right. Give them the benefit of the doubt. Better yet, give them a hand, a donation, a pat on the back, go to a council meeting and show some support, help them fix or improve something. I seriously doubt the county taxes go as far as they need to go.



Several places we have lived the fire dept was not good and some would not call them for that reason. If you were not a paid member they may come to the fire and keep it from spreading outside the building but not put the fire out.
I have a serious moral problem with systems like that. In a way, I can kind of understand because it is a constant struggle to get enough money to keep the apparatus and equipment up. Fund raising (begging for money) is in addition to the numerous hours spent on calls, training, business, maintenance and I could go on. All this effort so that you can justify every little thing to people who have absolutely no clue and who's only contribution is to complain. It does get tiring and frustrating.



I hope we never have a fire but I have fire extinguishers in the home and shop and will use them.
As do I. Nothing is as effective as hitting a fire in its infancy. I have 5lb or larger extinguishers scattered throughout my shop and one on each end of my house. Of course, the best measures are preventative ones.


Being a volunteer fireman is not easy
Its also generally thankless too. That's not why any of us do it, but it sure is a nice bonus when a job well done is acknowledged.

tdmidget
05-18-2008, 01:38 PM
Right on Joel. And Carl the fire dept's authority is derived from the police powers of the goverment. Thus they are permitted to enter, forcibly if necessary, and take whatever action is needed to protect lives and property. I used to be a field instructor for the Georgia Fire Academy and we would go to rural departments and teach them to handle flammable liquids including large quanties in a pit with water. Not every department can afford foam and the equipment to apply it. They do have water and we taught them how to use it.

Swarf&Sparks
05-18-2008, 01:53 PM
"There were about 3 dozen drums total, most containing Ethanol:"

I weep :(

Dawai
05-18-2008, 01:58 PM
Beings how this has became a pissing contest, I got up at 5am and let some off, then again at 8am..

Get over it or take it to PM please.. relieve the BS..

J Tiers
05-18-2008, 10:41 PM
What was the name of that department again? I missed it.


XXXXXXXX (now deleted to protect the guilty), and probably the local volunteer dept, since it was about a mile outside of the actual town. It was several years ago, like 10 or so.

Don't get me wrong...... A fire is a mess, and anyone who will agree to come and put them out, and try to save people and property has my thanks, and more.

To do the putting out makes the mess worse, but it is way better than the alternative.