PDA

View Full Version : OT - Looked up "argumentative" in the dictionary...



Too_Many_Tools
06-01-2008, 03:44 AM
It would seem some people never change....

Offer one's help on PM and you get a dope slap free of charge from Don...

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=159053

Please Don...can we have another?

Forrest Addy
06-01-2008, 05:37 AM
"Don, I hope I never have to rescue you from a burning building. You'd citicize my every move, my first aid technique, the way I picked you up and carried you, the route I took through the inferno, and utterly forget when we finally emerged into fresh air and safety that I was not only being helpful but I did it for free.

"The people who post here on PM are mere mortals: flawed maybe but with good intentions and quite often with genuine expertise. Most of them display good manners and common courtesy. If their free help doesn't suit you, why don't you hire experts that will give you the kind of answers you prefer? Then if they fail in the smallest detail, you can fire them thus imposing vengance for earing your wrath.

"I suggest you try "please" and "thank you" once in a while even if the help offered you seems misguided. It won't be fatal to you."

JCHannum
06-01-2008, 07:50 AM
The source of Forrest's consternation. Even after answering a question he gets slammed.

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=158812

A large number of M's posts are questions about this or that that would be locked if by another member. They quite often end up with responses of this sort yet, for some reason, the members still attempt to answer them.

kurt w
06-01-2008, 08:02 AM
Yep. PM has gone down hill, it used to be a nice place, but for the last few years Don has gone power mad IMO.

Renegade
06-01-2008, 08:10 AM
You don't have to wonder what it would be like to live under his roof.
As I've stated before I feel sorry for his wife and son.

tryp
06-01-2008, 09:05 AM
To be honest, I like Millacron hes a no bull**** kinda guy and to the point.

I think that he just gets tired of asking a question hoping to be answered by a guru in the subject that assumes he has above average knowledge. And he gets blasted with a whole crapload of answers assuming he knows nothing, by people that know less about the subject in question and lots of answers that just miss the point entirely.

I've given him a suggestion after reading one of his queries with average care and it was the exact thing he was looking for, yet in the same thread people suggested everything from "don't do it its unsafe" to "jury rig it like this" when he wanted a simple commercial solution but couldnt quite find it.

Mind you the link just posted is quite funny maybe hes having a bad day, I couldnt be bothered to read the whole thing.

Chipslinger
06-01-2008, 09:40 AM
To be honest, I like Millacron hes a no bull**** kinda guy and to the point.

I think that he just gets tired of asking a question hoping to be answered by a guru in the subject that assumes he has above average knowledge. And he gets blasted with a whole crapload of answers assuming he knows nothing, by people that know less about the subject in question and lots of answers that just miss the point entirely.

I've given him a suggestion after reading one of his queries with average care and it was the exact thing he was looking for, yet in the same thread people suggested everything from "don't do it its unsafe" to "jury rig it like this" when he wanted a simple commercial solution but couldnt quite find it.

Mind you the link just posted is quite funny maybe hes having a bad day, I couldnt be bothered to read the whole thing.


So from what I hear , He is not unlike Wolfie.

Lew Hartswick
06-01-2008, 10:30 AM
I use to (up till yesterday) read that group right after this one. I seldom
contributed but did occaisonally. However the latest bit on the ads
that take longer to load than it does to read the posts and it happens
on every page was the last straw. I left a note to post over here if
it get fixed. :-) As to Dons OT questions, I ususlly ignored them. :-)
...lew...

Carld
06-01-2008, 10:40 AM
Don has a nice site and it's very interesting. Don is his own worst enemy in his threads. I really wonder what his personality is in person because on the site he comes off as caustic to me. Rather than just ignore a post he will belittle the poster. Wouldn't it be better to say nothing.

You really can't judge a person by the threads and posts because many people hide behind the keyboard and use the personality they can't use face to face. I guess it's a way of releasing pent up emotions.

There are many of the people on PM and HSM that I would like to meet without them knowing who I am. I could see the real day to day person then and see if they are disadent and rant in real life as much as on the sites.

Milacron of PM
06-01-2008, 11:21 AM
Don has a nice site and it's very interesting. Don is his own worst enemy in his threads. I really wonder what his personality is in person because on the site he comes off as caustic to me. Rather than just ignore a post he will belittle the poster. Wouldn't it be better to say nothing.

You really can't judge a person by the threads and posts because many people hide behind the keyboard and use the personality they can't use face to face. I guess it's a way of releasing pent up emotions.

There are many of the people on PM and HSM that I would like to meet without them knowing who I am. I could see the real day to day person then and see if they are disadent and rant in real life as much as on the sites. A little birdie told me that Too_Little_Sense was over here "doing what he does". Apparently since I kicked him off PM he's been obscesssed with me.

Anyway, to address Carld's comments in particular, "in person" I am different, but it has nothing to do with "hiding behind the keyboard". In real life I am much more tolerant of gafts and stupidity, simply because I am guiltly of so many gafts myself. Real time conversation is a very different ballgame from posting on an internet forum. On a forum you have plenty of time to think and consider what you are about to post. And unlike "real life" you can even "do over" via editing. Thus in "real life" I am rarely critical of others, but in "forum life", I just see no excuse for much of the BS that gets posted, and will call someone on it.

Also, to tryp.... you have hit the nail squarely on the head sir, thank you. So refreshing to see someone "gets it"...especially the part about folks that assume that because you ask a question about a subject, that you apparently know *nothing* about that subject and are therefore free to chatter on ad infinitum about every possible side issue connected with that subject. When the reality may be that you may be an expert on that subject and know pretty much everything there is to know on it, *except* the one thing you are asking the question on !

And Renegade, I've been happily married to the same woman for 26 years...my first and only wife too.. how many here can say the same ?

Anyhoo, I'm sure this won't quell the flames that will follow, mostly boiling down to "but why can't you be nicer ?" but that's my comments for the day...now time to go sailing.

Norman Atkinson
06-01-2008, 11:25 AM
Carld,
Apart from being a Wail of a Walloping Window Blind stuck in the Bay of Biscay what is is a 'disadent'?

Gracias

Norm

Carld
06-01-2008, 11:48 AM
From Carls personal dictionary, disadent, one who goes against anything that anyone else says. Always takes the other side of any statement or issue.

Will that work?

Well, Don, I would still like to meet you someday but I still feel it would be better to just ignore a foolish or non answer reply. The reason I would like to meet some in person is just as you described of yourself. I think most are really good people to know in person but not necessarily on a forum.

There are several times I have typed a caustic reply only to delete most of it and type a gentle reply. Other times I felt justified going caustic but only when treated that way by another. To me it's if pushed, push back. I hate it when I fall into that trap.

Don, I thought you said several times you are never going to come to this site again. On one post reciently you said all info about the PM site can be found on the Caski site and not here. But, hi anyway.

Oh, I've been married to the same girl for 44 years now.

Norman Atkinson
06-01-2008, 12:19 PM
Carld,
My apologies. I thought that you had written a poem and after re-ckecking, found the author to be a 'Charles. E Carryl'

A bit of reads
'The man at the wheel was taught to feel
contempt for the wildest blow
And it often appeared when the weather had cleared
that he had been in his bunk below'

or if you must have it
'A case of arse salt
and battery'

Ooops

Norm

dp
06-01-2008, 12:53 PM
Don, I thought you said several times you are never going to come to this site again. On one post reciently you said all info about the PM site can be found on the Caski site and not here. But, hi anyway.


Once a week or so Don's inner drama queen pops out bristling with petulance, ruffles the creases from her crumpled skirts, shares a Tourette like outburst, then disappears again, waiting for the next moment of high drama. This is one such, there will be more.

Carld
06-01-2008, 01:05 PM
Now dp, be nice, I have a feeling Don is not the way he comes across in the forums. All that aside I do enjoy reading his posts in his threads:D and while caustic they have merrit. Many are the times I have clasped my hands to control the temptation to make a similiar post, but haven't we all.

I am sitting here posting while listening and watching a video of Mance Lispcomb, one of my favorite blues players, so this may have an effect on calming me some. He is, after all, an outstanding blues player/singer, Much like Mississippi John Hurt my other top favorite. Ummm, Jack O' Diamonds Was a Hard, Hard Card To Play.

dp
06-01-2008, 02:41 PM
Carl - I thought that was nice :)

torker
06-01-2008, 02:51 PM
Hope it's alright to hijack this thread..
Hey DT... you ol' burger flipper :D You got any old VN catalogs kicking around?
Thanks!
Russ

Renegade
06-01-2008, 08:47 PM
And Renegade, I've been happily married to the same woman for 26 years...my first and only wife too.. how many here can say the same ?


28 years next month for me.

You say your happily married to your wife, does she think the same?

Milacron of PM
06-01-2008, 08:49 PM
Don, I thought you said several times you are never going to come to this site again. On one post reciently you said all info about the PM site can be found on the Caski site and not here. But, hi anyway.
I never said I was never going to come to this site again. What I said was I was never going to post any notices of PM being down here again.

I never said so, but I also avoid posting any new threads here like the plague, since I am so polarizing. But if someone posts some total BS about me and I happen to see it, I will sometimes respond. I also occassionally respond to subjects that I happen to see that I feel I can contribute something.

But no more *starting* new threads over here from me....that's the distintinction.

Milacron of PM
06-01-2008, 08:52 PM
28 years next month for me.

You say your happily married to your wife, does she think the same? You want her cell phone number so you can ask ? What a stupid question... for an internet forum anyway... I mean if I say yes, you probably won't believe me anyway....so what's the point ?

Renegade
06-01-2008, 09:06 PM
What a stupid question... for an internet forum anyway... I mean if I say yes, you probably won't believe me anyway....so what's the point ?

If its such a stupid question then what do you think most of your OT questions are ........................Intelligent?LMAO:D

She must be one HE!! of a woman is all I can say.

Milacron of PM
06-01-2008, 09:13 PM
Hope it's alright to hijack this thread..
Hey DT... you ol' burger flipper :D You got any old VN catalogs kicking around?
Thanks!
Russ VN is one of the few machine tools I don't have old literature on, sorry. The 8 filing cabinet brochure collection I have, some files had water damage, apparently from a sprinkler system that went off decades ago, and I vaguely recall cringing as I threw away the damaged VN literature.

torker
06-01-2008, 09:21 PM
Thanks Don!

gnm109
06-01-2008, 11:11 PM
Now dp, be nice, I have a feeling Don is not the way he comes across in the forums. All that aside I do enjoy reading his posts in his threads:D and while caustic they have merrit. Many are the times I have clasped my hands to control the temptation to make a similiar post, but haven't we all.

I am sitting here posting while listening and watching a video of Mance Lispcomb, one of my favorite blues players, so this may have an effect on calming me some. He is, after all, an outstanding blues player/singer, Much like Mississippi John Hurt my other top favorite. Ummm, Jack O' Diamonds Was a Hard, Hard Card To Play.


Very interesting. I also learned to love the blues and traditional players of whom you speak, and others two. Back in the 1960's when the Ash Grove was still open in Los Angeles, both Mance Lipscomb and Lightnin' Hopkins were frequent players. I saw both of them in person several times through the years

I also got to see Big Mama Thornton, Odetta, Doc Watson, Brownie McGhee and Sonny Terry, Muddy Waters, Son House, The New Lost City Ramblers and many other groups of the day.

Sadly, I never got to see Mississippi John Hurt and I guess he's gone now, like many of the others. They were a wonderful group of musicians, for sure. Each show was a free music lesson for me and I still play guitar, mandolin and banjo.

As to the issues about PM, it makes no difference to me how someone else acts. You'll be OK over there as long as you don't talk about your lower level equipment, It's a good place to lurk but that's about it.

It kinda made me smile recently though when I saw the thread where M was looking for a HurdyGurdy. Anyone who collects musical instruments can't be all bad. I've got quite a collection myelf. ;)

mechanicalmagic
06-01-2008, 11:29 PM
I recently posted a reply to Milacron, on PM. He was asking about ways to make a "keypad" for a CNC control, either outside or in house.

Knowing Don's penchant for perfection, I did my best.

The result: I feel I got slammed because I didn't know that a "keypad" in the CNC manuals is a graphic overlay. No switches, or electrics.

And, I'll bet he never checked into my last suggestion to look at Kinko's (sign shop) for the graphic overlay portion of the keypad. If he did, it sure wasn't mentioned, even if it didn't suit his exact needs, I would like to have known why, since I plan to use them for a project.

I understand some of Milacron's frustrations with the board, it is popular, many posters.
But, it also has prolific "post whores" intent on replying to ANYTHING. Totally irrelevant of their knowledge. I have no clue how to solve this problem.

In response, I read only a few threads of interest, I probably miss a lot of good info.

I'm agree with Forrest, and my response is to NEVER reply to Milacron again.

I'm sure he will welcome my lack of participation, but there may come the time when 30+ years in research might save his ass. No longer an option.

Dave

JRouche
06-01-2008, 11:37 PM
Yep. PM has gone down hill, it used to be a nice place, but for the last few years Don has gone power mad IMO.

What?? And who the hell are you?? Six posts and you decide to chime in about whatever. Why dont you just stick to a project you have done lately?

Down hill?? LOL Thats too funny, trolling for responses, yer a good troll cause I responded..

I like ALL the free groups on the internet. Nuthing but very useful info and I learn from all of them..

Bashing one group on another group is just plain childish..

There is no such thing as a perfect anything. We just use what we can. And I use all the groups, even the News groups (as busy as the talk can be)...

So, if PM is going down hill in yer opinion so be it.. Haaa.. I can use alot of the information just fine.

Troll!!!!!! JR

Carld
06-01-2008, 11:37 PM
gmn109, I sure wish I had been able to see them in person like you did. yes MJH is dead. He died in 1969 I think. I play acustic fingerstyle blues

gnm109
06-02-2008, 12:31 AM
gmn109, I sure wish I had been able to see them in person like you did. yes MJH is dead. He died in 1969 I think. I play acustic fingerstyle blues


Yes, I don't pretend that I ever got as great as they, but I sure learned from them. Also, as you probably know, it's possible to pick up a great deal from the recordings of the greats. Those are still available.

I had a small musc store in Los Angeles for about ten years with my brother and I learned to do repairs on acoustic instruments, primarily guitars.

So as to relate this to machinery, I atually got into home machining through woodwork for guitar repairs. Some of the machinery I accumulated and still have are things like a 14" Delta Rockwell Bandsaw and a ca. 1948 Parks Wood Plane that can do up to 4" X 12". I restored that one with the help of my dear late father. We used about a gallon of phosphoric to get the rust off. It has a 2 HP reverse induction Emerson motor that is the size of a watermelon. I also have the usual scroll saws and a Delta-Rockwell 10" Contractor's saw with a belt drive motor. For a dust collector I have a Cyclone brand, made in US that sits on top of a 55 gallon barrel with a two hp Baldor motor.

The woodworking equipment is all American equipment, I might add.....in case anyone from PM is watching. Ha.

I later went into metal work but alas, my budget and repair skills would only permit Asian equipment for a lathe and Mill Drill at that time. I do have American welding equipment however, a Victor O-A setup, a new Miller Syncrowave 200 for TIG and Stick and a near-new Lincoln SP 175 plus MIG so I'm set there.

I did look at a whole bunch of used American equipment like lathes and milling machines in my budget range about 15 years ago when I got into the metal work but the condition on most of them was so dreadful that it scared me off so I bought new Asian. That's the way it goes~!

I think that this is a terrific site and I hope to learn and also contribute eventually. I've been sick and mostly in bed for the past 6 months having my hip rebuilt but I'l be back in the shop this summer so I hope to provide pictures of some of my projects.

By the way, anyone who plays guitar is OK in my book! ;)

Carld
06-02-2008, 09:48 AM
gnm109, Yes, I try to learn from the videos and have a friend in Georgia I visit from time to time that is a killer blues player and nails the old players. Well hell, he's right in the middle of it and knows many of the living and dead Atlanta blues players.

As far as equipment I have a CamTak Tiawan lathe and a MillPort Tiawan mill. Both are very good and very accurate. I always buy the best quality I can afford in machinery.

Renegade
06-02-2008, 10:09 AM
What?? And who the hell are you?? Six posts and you decide to chime in about whatever.

Troll!!!!!! JR

JR, I have no beef with anyone (but DT) on this board, but since when does post count have to do with their IQ or whether they can reply to a thread or not, maybe a section for new members only and then they can post with the regulars after X amount of intelligent replies.

We all had a first post, and harassing new/low post count members only drives them off to somewhere else.

kurt w
06-02-2008, 03:38 PM
What?? And who the hell are you?? Six posts and you decide to chime in about whatever. Why dont you just stick to a project you have done lately?

Down hill?? LOL Thats too funny, trolling for responses, yer a good troll cause I responded..

I like ALL the free groups on the internet. Nuthing but very useful info and I learn from all of them..

Bashing one group on another group is just plain childish..

There is no such thing as a perfect anything. We just use what we can. And I use all the groups, even the News groups (as busy as the talk can be)...

So, if PM is going down hill in yer opinion so be it.. Haaa.. I can use alot of the information just fine.

Troll!!!!!! JR

I am who I am. Been here sense 2-05-07 just don't post much. I guess you started with 1'000 post.
"Bashing one group on another group is just plain childish.."
Is what you just did any deferent? Is bashing another member any better?
I was not trolling for anything and I could care less if anyone responded.

Chipslinger
06-02-2008, 04:50 PM
Troll (Internet)
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
• Ten things you may not know about Wikipedia •Jump to: navigation, search
"Do not feed the trolls" and its abbreviation DNFTT redirects here. For the Wikipedia essay, see Wikipedia:What is a troll?
An Internet troll, or simply troll in Internet slang, is someone who posts controversial and usually irrelevant or off-topic messages in an online community, such as an online discussion forum or chat room, with the intention of baiting other users into an emotional response[1] or to generally disrupt normal on-topic discussion.[2]

Contents [hide]
1 Etymology
1.1 Early history
2 Identity trolling
3 Usage
4 Concern troll
5 See also
6 References
7 External links
7.1 Troll FAQs



[edit] Etymology

Mac1
06-02-2008, 06:54 PM
Nice place to visit, but I wouldn't want to live there.

mochinist
06-02-2008, 08:17 PM
oops posted in the wrong thread


pm is aight with me

tattoomike68
06-02-2008, 09:36 PM
Don from PM is a freakin jerk.

I recommend everyone be a smart ass jerk right back at him and tell him what a dumb ass peice of crap he is.

:p

JRouche
06-02-2008, 09:49 PM
JR, I have no beef with anyone (but DT) on this board, but since when does post count have to do with their IQ or whether they can reply to a thread or not,

We all had a first post, and harassing new/low post count members only drives them off to somewhere else.

Yer right, a post count does not give you any special anything to be talking crap about anyone else. But credibility lends something with what you have posted before. And a guy that hasn't posted ANYTHING decides to chime up when the smack talking starts leads me to believe he is just a troll.

And my point is to NOT drive anyone off. But most new posters are usually easy on the personal bashing of another person. You know, just like the new guy in the shop. He doesn't usually start the first week off with talking sh!t about the other lathe operator. JR

JRouche
06-02-2008, 09:56 PM
I am who I am. Been here sense 2-05-07 just don't post much. I guess you started with 1'000 post.
"Bashing one group on another group is just plain childish.."
Is what you just did any deferent? Is bashing another member any better?
I was not trolling for anything and I could care less if anyone responded.

And yer right, for me to say anything negative about you was indeed childish on my part.. Thats my downfall in life, my mouth always leads the brain, thats immaturity...

But I see you dont post ANYTHING but decide this is the best contribution you could give to this group. Hopping on the bandwagon to talk crap. Ok, it MAY be a real issue for you, this topic. It appeared trollish to me so I called it so.....

Keep up the useful posts and Ill be reading... JR

J Tiers
06-02-2008, 10:19 PM
I guess I just don't get that bothered by "Milacron"......

And that after I got a bit of the "why would you even post that" treatment recently, although I admit I gave some back as well.......

I see his point. And I regularly see, here and elsewhere, the chiming in of folks who "almost sorta know about something a bit like that"............. to answer questions where "definite knowledge only" is requested.

The "noise" is often deafening, and probably drives away the people who DO know.

Sounds like a bunch of airhead 14 year olds here..... like "Do you know what she had the nerve to say?............................."

Lew Hartswick
06-02-2008, 11:41 PM
I see his point. And I regularly see, here and elsewhere, the chiming in of folks who "almost sorta know about something a bit like that"............. to answer questions where "definite knowledge only" is requested.

The "noise" is often deafening, and probably drives away the people who DO know.


Yep! I have quit answering and usually even reading threads that
involve the kind of electrical and electronic subjects that I worked on
for 40 years because of all the "incorect to just plain bad" advice from
others that havent a clue what they are talking about.
I took up metal working just before I retired so am still in the
"don't know it all but have learned a few good pointers" stage so
try to keep up with those.
...lew...

Deja Vu
06-03-2008, 07:10 AM
....Very interesting thread!!! :cool:

rantbot
06-03-2008, 10:00 AM
Yep! I have quit answering and usually even reading threads that involve the kind of electrical and electronic subjects that I worked on for 40 years because of all the "incorect to just plain bad" advice from others that havent a clue what they are talking about.
Interesting; my experience was similar. When it was widely touted as the "go-to" place for advice about rotary converters, I took a look and was a bit nonplussed to find what bizarre rubbish passed there for good technical advice. I looked at something else, though I don't recall exactly what - I think maybe some confident hogwash about precision spindle bearings. Now of course that's just two for two, and doesn't really prove anything; but I never felt a motivation to look at anything else, and have just given it a pass ever since.

Considering all the paeans of praise about what a "great resource" it is, I thought I was the only one who found it a general waste of time. But, maybe not.

Michael Moore
06-03-2008, 11:02 AM
Welcome to the Internet. Unless a forum has moderators who are true experts in everything that might be talked about and they are going to be editing posts for accuracy it is up to the reader to try and pick out who seems to have a real clue.

Funny, that seems to apply off the Internet too, as I've talked to 'experts' at brick and mortar businesses in real life who seemed to lack an understanding of their subject.

I've learned lots of useful stuff at PM and met some very informed and helpful people who have given me some very appreciated help. That is true for many other fora too.

But the responsibility for the final decision always rests with the person who has asked for the advice.

cheers,
Michael

Forrest Addy
06-03-2008, 12:19 PM
Rantbot: Gleaning good info from messageboards requires the patience and persistance of a finch picking grain out of horse poo. I'm pretty active on a couple of boards and regard myself as moderately expert on a number of topics. Fully half my posts deal with squeching hazardous bad advise and wrongheaded concepts.

A few years ago I tried to establish a trend where posts on electrical matters contained a brief statment of the electrical qualifications of the poster. (Know nothing about electricity but I helped my brother in law pulle wire one week end. EE speciaizing on high voltage switchgear. Licenced electrician. Etc.) Rod Peterson who is a true expert on electrical matters and whose advice can be trusted calls it "the Addy disclaimer." I think it helps the questioner to distinguish chalk from cheese especially when issues like electrical safety are part of the equasion.

Many people need simple advice on pulley ratios, use of coolant in the home shop, RPC's, even painting of concrete floors but the noise level is so high and there is so much conflicting bad advice good advice is all but drowned out. It's the task of the public spirited few to persist... etc but personally I like to butt heads with the ignorant. So if you have something to offer in the line of expertise it will earn you points to use it to allay ignorance. If you can do it diplomatically, so much the better.

Too_Many_Tools
06-03-2008, 03:46 PM
A little birdie told me that Too_Little_Sense was over here "doing what he does". Apparently since I kicked him off PM he's been obscesssed with me.

Anyway, to address Carld's comments in particular, "in person" I am different, but it has nothing to do with "hiding behind the keyboard". In real life I am much more tolerant of gafts and stupidity, simply because I am guiltly of so many gafts myself. Real time conversation is a very different ballgame from posting on an internet forum. On a forum you have plenty of time to think and consider what you are about to post. And unlike "real life" you can even "do over" via editing. Thus in "real life" I am rarely critical of others, but in "forum life", I just see no excuse for much of the BS that gets posted, and will call someone on it.

Also, to tryp.... you have hit the nail squarely on the head sir, thank you. So refreshing to see someone "gets it"...especially the part about folks that assume that because you ask a question about a subject, that you apparently know *nothing* about that subject and are therefore free to chatter on ad infinitum about every possible side issue connected with that subject. When the reality may be that you may be an expert on that subject and know pretty much everything there is to know on it, *except* the one thing you are asking the question on !

And Renegade, I've been happily married to the same woman for 26 years...my first and only wife too.. how many here can say the same ?

Anyhoo, I'm sure this won't quell the flames that will follow, mostly boiling down to "but why can't you be nicer ?" but that's my comments for the day...now time to go sailing.

Right on que...LOL...bullies are so predictable.

Thank you Donnie....can I have yet another dope slap?

Please...pretty please....with sugar on it.

So ...how's that cash flow problem of yours going?

You reap what you sow Little Big Man.

Laugh...laugh...laugh....


TMT

Norman Atkinson
06-03-2008, 04:44 PM
TMT,

At this moment none of us know what or why any one of us is 'grumpy'
A long while back, I wrote of what was going to happen because I could see a slump coming up. I wrote of rising fuel prices and inefficient vehicles.
At Christmas, the market went arse over tit with loans which were not going to be paid back. It was in the US but the ripples ran back to just across the road from here. The second biggest mortgage firm wentbust. Today, another British 'biggy' had to have 23% of its wealth bought out. Since Christmas, fuel prices in Europe not just the UK are rocketting up- and there is more to come. I was in HongKong and my mates are Chinese and China is importing rice. At the moment, house prices are dropping and the threat of negative equity faces thousands. It is not merely happening in the UK but it is in Spain and France. Food- coupled with all sorts of troubles is rising by- 25% or more in 6 months.
Banks are not lending money to people who haven't got the money and credit cards are becoming a joke.

The crunch comes- not perhaps with Don directly but every big firm and little firm and the man in the street- with an empty begging bowl.
Do remember that you too are part of the system- and that you are not going to get more than scrap for your tools or they may rust. You may not have a job, you may have a starving family and your washers may not be worth a plugged nickel. Will anyone want you- or give you a crust? Not when their own bellies are empty.

You see, TMT, I am an old, old man and in 1929, the year that I was conceived, men jumped from the NY skyscrapers. They had reached the end of the road.

Before you start a further tirade, take one step back and see yourself of where you will be at Christmas 2008 and Christmas 2009. Don will have his own problems. So, believe me, will you.

There is barely time to build your defences- I suggest that you concentrate on yourself and your own problems!

Me? I saw it happening. My problems- health and age only

Norm

J Tiers
06-03-2008, 07:54 PM
It was in the US but the ripples ran back to just across the road from here.

Close, but you have it backwards......

The ripples were HERE in the US, really.

There is a lot more investment capital among the super-rich, and it was all looking for an outlet that could make money. Twice as much money as 10 years ago, much more than the productive output of the entire world.

So.........

What was the hot market? Ah, yes, US mortgages. The "mortgage-backed security".

And what was that?

First there is a sort of "bundling" of many mortgages into a profitable item, paying (theoretically) a good dividend. Shares of that income potential are then sold as the "security" which, obviously, is "mortgage-backed" since that is where the income is from.

So, There were LOTS of rich europeans and asians etc looking for investment, and only so many mortgages in the US........ (is this sounding familiar yet?)

So, what to do? The price of these securities was rising due to demand, so many acted to supply this demand from foreign investment for the securities. They issued MORE mortgages, and duly bundled and sold shares, etc.

But, how did they GET these mortgages? Well, that was easy.........they issued a mortgage to anyone who wanted one, and was essentially willing to lie about their income to provide at least a specious basis for issuance. Of course LOTS of perfectly honest people got hooked into mortgages they should not have qualified for...... in many cases because the contracts were in dense legalese, and did NOT reflect the explanations given to them.

The figuring was that money could be made if as many as 12% of the mortgages (about 1 in 8) went bad.

Trouble is, 25% went bad...... so the house of cards collapsed. The worst hit are the folks who get turfed out of "their" houses.......

This is why I say the ripples were IN the US, NOT outside..... The basic huge demand drove the "creation" (with in many cases a good dose of deception, to be sure) of investment vehicles. And this demand was NOT from within the US......

One could say that the foreign investors basically got what they should have expected, and the people who really got the shaft were the ones who got snookered into bad mortgages right here in the US. THEY didn't do anything but sign on the line

Now, that money has moved onwards........ The NEW "HOT INVESTMENT" is commodities..... Yep, the biggies..... OIL and FOOD.

Normally, demand is curbed by price. When it rises too far, demand falls off. I hear about new drivers in India and china, which is true. But they are not rich enough to buy $15 gas in quantity...... nor $200 oil. There has to be another reason why oil jumps the way it has.

And there is...... Investments in commodity futures. Mind, I am not claiming any "evil conspiracy"..... more like a "lemming behavior". But, that money that lost out in mortgages is still demanding investment vehicles, and now commodities is "it".

The money is COMPETING to "get in" and the run-up of pricing has been in a considerable part due to "out-bidding" each other to get in. naturally there are indeed "organic" drivers for price rises, but from 30% to 50% of the rises have been sparked by speculators engaged in "competitive bidding", along with added fallout in driving down the dollar, etc.

obviously it can't go on. There is a limit and it will hit when demand drops enough that some are left "holding the bag" on high priced futures that they have to liquidate lower. Then, the lemmings will drop out as fast as they went in, and reason will probably return, at least to that market.

There isn't a lot of different investments left to bid on (or bid up), and the whole system of capitalization and inevitable growth may be in for a bit of a shock............. Eventually someone must pay, but what if nobody does?

BTW, a number of countries which have subsidized fuel for citizens are stopping that. The effect will be to make fuel demand more in accord with costs, which almost has to be an improvement, since a class of fuel users who were not responsible to pay for it will now have to pay, and will lower usage.

SUVs are not ONLY in the US, they tend to be very popular in areas with subsidized fuel..........................

Norman Atkinson
06-04-2008, 02:56 AM
Hi Jerry,
Thank you for adding your bit. I will not argue because there was a lot of money about but its real origins are unclear( to me)
What is clear is rampant inflation. What is also clear is what we are running into.How we get out of it- isn't. Personally, I am more than OK and I haven't needed to work for the last 25 years or so.

What is really bugging me is just how long these forums are going to last because they are indicators of what is much , much larger and distressing outside these once 'hallowed halls.'

It's the old men dreaming dreams and having visions syndrome.
Sorry, old friend

Norm

J Tiers
06-04-2008, 08:10 AM
The real "doomsday scenario" financially is that you will be just as poor as anyone else, because investments will be utterly worthless, and land must be actually occupied to be held...

At that point, most people will be in very sad shape.

I would speculate that the people on these forums will be better off.

Either they live in more remote areas, with attendant advantages (and disadvantages, due to roving outlaws), OR and more importantly, we are the folks who are most likely to be able to FIX THINGS, and hence we may be in demand, or at least able to trade un-stealable capabilities for sustenance.

You can steal stuff, but abilities can only be destroyed or enslaved, never stolen.

Norman Atkinson
06-04-2008, 09:33 AM
Jerry,
I actually lived not only through the poverty of the 30's but the privations of 6 years of total war starvation and the aftermath.

Nobody can fling anything at us that we have not experienced before.

It is as simple or as complicated as that. What happened at 11AM(GMT)Sunday 3rd September 1939 prepared us for anything.

Norm

lazlo
06-04-2008, 11:36 AM
At Christmas, the market went arse over tit with loans which were not going to be paid back. It was in the US but the ripples ran back to just across the road from here.

More than you may realize! The multi-national mortgage companies that were issuing bad loans (Bank of America, Citigroup, Countrywide Financial, JPMorgan Chase, Washington Mutual and Wells Fargo) were re-packaging the mortages as "mortgage-backed securities" that were sold on Wall Street, and bought-up by mutual fund managers.

So when the sub-prime lenders started defaulting on the mortgages, the mortgage-backed securities washed-out, and a bunch of investment banks world-wide went bankrupt, including Bear-Stearns (who was bailed-out at the 11th hour by the Federal Reserve, which is completely unheard of...)

Norman Atkinson
06-04-2008, 12:12 PM
Robert,
Of course, I know. Do you honestly think that I am always playing the clown?

Must tell you about the fabricated Stent!

Norm

lazlo
06-04-2008, 12:25 PM
Of course, I know. Do you honestly think that I am always playing the clown?

Sorry Norm, I didn't know about the mortgage-backed securities being re-sold on Wall Street until the Economist article about the Bear Stearns debacle. There's also another crisis in the insurance industry -- apparently these idiots were issuing multi-billion dollar financial insurance policies on the mortgage-backed securities, and so now the insurance companies are asking for $13 Billion in Federal relief.

All these assholes play golf together, so my layman's synopsis of the crisis is that some shyster in Countrywide comes up with a scam to create large numbers of bad loans to high-risk borrowers, then they package them in chunks and re-sell them to their buddies on Wall-Street, who then take out a billion dollar insurance policies on them.

The CEO's of all three companies (the mortgage company, the investment bank, and the insurance underwriter) make hundreds of millions of dollars on the annual bonuses, and when the pyramid scheme collapses, they quietly step down and take their automatic severance bonus.

These guys should be in Federal, Pound Me in the $# prison...


Must tell you about the fabricated Stent!

I'd love to see that! Is is the Brooks version, like Gagetbuilder made? Or did you use bar stock?

Norman Atkinson
06-04-2008, 12:50 PM
Normal Tactics- It's called 'pi55ing in the same pot'
The Stent-- I bought it for 150 and it turned out to have been fabricated out of mild steel sections-- and is bootifooooooool!

Recall my comments way back when

Cheers

N