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deltaenterprizes
06-03-2008, 04:33 PM
I was sent a video of water decomposition using radio waves,seems to be too good to be true,I figure it takes more energy to produce the radio waves than is produced by heat of the gasses burning.

Anybody else see this video?

NickH
06-03-2008, 06:04 PM
And it was sent by who?
That can tell you a lot and save you looking credulous in front of the whole world :D
Nick

bob ward
06-03-2008, 06:30 PM
You're right delta, there is no free lunch.

Theoretically, energy of separation equals energy of recombination.

In practice, system losses ensure that energy output is less than energy input, which may be OK if its a means to achieving a certain result, whatever that result may be.

PTSideshow
06-03-2008, 06:35 PM
You are right, yes it works but it doesn't make more than it cost we just went thru this a while ago here. To bad the search doesn't work. That video is on the web and some people are flogging it like it was an improvement on sliced bread;) File this next to the guy from down under that can boil water in a glass by sound waves or sonic vibrations which will work if the water is agitated enough to cause the friction to cause the heating but again input is higher then the output. There still isn't a free energy lunch:rolleyes:

Evan
06-03-2008, 07:16 PM
I don't recall paying for sunlight. :D

A.K. Boomer
06-03-2008, 08:14 PM
Don't worry ole friend melanoma is just around the corner:D :D


(and I hear its quite expensive)

Forrest Addy
06-03-2008, 08:27 PM
Evan Wrote: "I don't recall paying for sunlight."

Man! Are you behind on your good weather tax. I'm a tax consultant. Send me your sunshine tax money ($1200 a year I think) and a major credit card number and I'll make sure you are never bothered by unspent tax money. ;-)

J Tiers
06-03-2008, 08:51 PM
I don't recall paying for sunlight. :D

Wait a while...... Warren Buffet is working on that.

The electric companies already tried it......... rent you a solar setup AND charge the going rate for electricity output from it.


Oh, yeah the saltwater fuel..... fuggetttaboutit

wierdscience
06-04-2008, 01:21 AM
How about Sonoluminescence? Could be a thresh hold to fusion.





http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonoluminescence

Evan
06-04-2008, 02:58 AM
I wasn't entirely joking. However you look at it, creation by a supreme being or instantaneous appearance from a quantum fluctuation in the true vacuum, the Universe itself appears to be the ultimate Free Lunch.

Something for nothing, indeed.

NickH
06-04-2008, 03:14 AM
I wasn't entirely joking. However you look at it, creation by a supreme being or instantaneous appearance from a quantum fluctuation in the true vacuum, the Universe itself appears to be the ultimate Free Lunch.

Something for nothing, indeed.

Yes, but looking at it from your perspective you don't get to leave this particular table alive :D
Nick

Evan
06-04-2008, 04:30 AM
A significant limitation. I don't plan on leaving a tip.

Swarf&Sparks
06-04-2008, 07:20 AM
Restaurant at the end of the universe?

digger_doug
06-04-2008, 09:59 AM
He's here in erie, pa.

His name is John Kansius, the same guy that was on
60 minutes a little while ago using radio waves against
cancer.

A little background. He owned the local ABC television
station, Is a ham (forgot his callsign, haven't called him
for years). Has alot of money.

I think the water splitting thing, which is a spinnoff of the
cancer thing, just dropped his credibility... right off the
scale.

Yes I've seen the footage (on the local ABC station
nightly news...), but I believe he's pumping a good
kilowatt of power in the space to emit a candle sized flame.

Doug

Scishopguy
06-04-2008, 12:08 PM
Restaurant at the end of the universe?

"There's a party at the end of the world....."

Jimmy Buffett

DaHui
06-04-2008, 12:52 PM
I've seen the video but I never heard any claims about free energy. I thought the point was you could combust salt water (I know this is over simplified)...but the idea is pretty interesing in itself. I mean, take a tube of water, bombard it with radio waves and then set the water on fire. That's pretty sweet. It would make for interesting dinner conversation at least.

Maybe we could use solar energy to power the RF generator to make the water combustable, then we could heat up water with the burning water to make steam and use the steam to turn a turbine that tuns a generator and make electricity!

Evan
06-04-2008, 02:58 PM
If all you want to do is dissociate water then that is easy. Heat up some paraffin wax in a container until melted and almost smoking hot. Throw a tablespoon of water on it. Before doing this place a call to 911 and keep them on the line so they can hear your screams because the water will dissociate to hydrogen and oxygen and then recombine with an explosion that will spray smoking hot wax everywhere. It may even catch fire in the process.

All it takes to make H2O come apart is sufficient kinetic energy. The water on the wax is heated so quickly that it doesn't have time to boil and escape as steam so it dissociates.

bob ward
06-04-2008, 05:51 PM
If all you want to do is dissociate water then that is easy. Heat up some paraffin wax in a container until melted and almost smoking hot. Throw a tablespoon of water on it. Before doing this place a call to 911 and keep them on the line so they can hear your screams because the water will dissociate to hydrogen and oxygen and then recombine with an explosion that will spray smoking hot wax everywhere. It may even catch fire in the process.

All it takes to make H2O come apart is sufficient kinetic energy. The water on the wax is heated so quickly that it doesn't have time to boil and escape as steam so it dissociates.
Now I know why not. Another of life's minor mysteries solved.

J Tiers
06-04-2008, 09:02 PM
If all you want to do is dissociate water then that is easy. Heat up some paraffin wax in a container until melted and almost smoking hot. Throw a tablespoon of water on it. Before doing this place a call to 911 and keep them on the line so they can hear your screams because the water will dissociate to hydrogen and oxygen and then recombine with an explosion that will spray smoking hot wax everywhere. It may even catch fire in the process.

All it takes to make H2O come apart is sufficient kinetic energy. The water on the wax is heated so quickly that it doesn't have time to boil and escape as steam so it dissociates.

Are you sure of that?

if that is true, then there should be some similar results such that when you pour water on a hot fire the fire should flare up........ water on a red-hot piece of metal should result in a flame..........

Something in that statement appears to be a tad "off". Do you have a reference on that?

The explanation that makes more direct sense to me is that:

1) water boils below wax boiling......

2) water is heavier than wax........

so

3) water falls through the wax, getting heated up all the time........ and at some point it flashes into steam, undergoing a rapid expansion as a gas, blasting wax all over the place........

Some minor amount of dissociation into H2 and O2 may in fact happen, but I very much doubt that it is the major factor..........

Evan
06-04-2008, 10:55 PM
f that is true, then there should be some similar results such that when you pour water on a hot fire the fire should flare up........ water on a red-hot piece of metal should result in a flame..........

Something in that statement appears to be a tad "off". Do you have a reference on that?
Personal experience. I don't recall where I found out about it but I tried it when I was about 16 (with a face mask). It exploded and it wasn't just a steam explosion either. You are right about one thing, the water is much denser than the hot wax so it sinks and the steam it makes is still trapped and surrounded by the hot wax so it is rapidly heated but not under pressure which allows it to dissociate.

Water will dissociate even at room temperature. It's a matter of quantum probability. Not very often but sometimes a water molecule will be hit by several others in rapid succession without having a chance to shed that kinetic energy by bouncing off something else. It goes over the threshold and falls apart as the kinetic energy exceeds the binding energy required to pump it out of the low energy state.

The hotter it is to begin with the more often this happens. The steam trapped in the hot wax can't escape and it is all superheated at once. Without the extreme pressure normally associated with superheated steam to hold thing together (oversimplification alert) the dissociation progresses at a high rate. Boom.

BTW, it makes a visible flame. Very violet tinged with pink but clearly visible.

JCHannum
06-05-2008, 07:41 AM
It is unlikely that that was a result of dissociation. When water dissociates it produces primarily H+ & OH- ions. The amount of Hydrogen produced would be minimal, and would burn with an almost invisible flame if it were indeed present.

Evan
06-05-2008, 09:22 AM
See here:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/839495/water_explosion_in_fire/

JCHannum
06-05-2008, 09:54 AM
Which is a demonstration of why water should not be used on a grease fire. It goes to flash steam, atomizing the grease, or in the case of the vid, the boiling wax making it much more combustible. This is the reason atomizing steam is used on #6 fuel oil burners in oil fired boilers. Absent the atomizing, the oil would merely burn with a slow, smoky flame.

Evan
06-05-2008, 10:37 AM
While all that is true it doesn't go far enough. In particular it doesn't explain the auto ignition of gases when water is thrown on hot wax that isn't burning or even near a source of ignition. I have personally seen that happen.

JCHannum
06-05-2008, 11:35 AM
The mechanism is well known and understood. It is fully explained in this link, including a detailed description of a classroom demonstration. Note that there is no mention of danger of autoignition, or warning of possibility. If this were a potential, it would be well known by chemists and fire professionals.

http://www.woodrow.org/teachers/chemistry/exchange/topics/safety/DEMOgreasefire.html

fasto
06-05-2008, 01:24 PM
water on a red-hot piece of metal should result in a flame..........


Shipboard fires can be very tough to put out because of this. If the fire gets hot enough to burn the steel (like a cutting torch burns the steel) that fire cannot be put out with water in the conventional manner. The water adds to the fire.

To put out a fire like this, usually CO2 is used if it's available. If not, the fire is put out from the edges first.

Evan
06-05-2008, 01:38 PM
If this were a potential, it would be well known by chemists and fire professionals.

Regardless, it happens. There is probably a catalytic effect involved. Dissociation of many compounds is enhanced by catalytic effects. The action of platinum on hydrogen peroxide is a notable example. I don't have time to look up possible explanations for it right now.

Water on hot metal is shielded from the heat by a layer of steam. The steam in turn is free to escape as more is generated.

J Tiers
06-05-2008, 10:17 PM
Shipboard fires can be very tough to put out because of this. If the fire gets hot enough to burn the steel (like a cutting torch burns the steel) that fire cannot be put out with water in the conventional manner. The water adds to the fire.

To put out a fire like this, usually CO2 is used if it's available. If not, the fire is put out from the edges first.

Steel shavings will in fact do that, and there was a link on PM/HSM to a report on such an incident on a ship.

And, I think that even CO2 will be dissociated and increase burning of such a fire...... It certainly dissociates in a blast furnace.

However, ENOUGH water will cause the cooling to overcome the dissociation and fire. But it is very seldom that it is possible to get enough water into the right place.

It is important to realize, though, that in that case, the steel is already burning. And it is in fine shavings that burn well, not a "chunk".

Dissociation of water is also a very important factor if you are trying to make "town gas", in which case water supplies the materials for the CO and H2....... If water did NOT dissociate the process would be worthless, but I can assure you it does work.

However, the conditions under which it is a significant factor are not the same as tossing some water into a pan of molten wax........... or pouring water onto a chunk of hot iron.

While there might be some dissociation in the wax case, it is probably a very insignificant factor as far as the explosion that blows wax all over........ That would be mostly (no doubt virtually 100%) a steam explosion.

And the hot iron might dissociate some water, but certainly not enough to make that cause significant noticeable fire, or light the iron.

And, of course, the inevitable disclaimer for the totally physics challenged: Since the energy required to dissociate the water must come from somewhere, you cannot get free energy with the process... In the case of steel shavings, for instance, the oxidation of the steel provides the "fuel" to produce the energy that keeps it going...... when that fuel runs out, it stops.

The process is not unlike thermite... Thermite contains an oxide (rust) that is reduced, with the oxygen taken up by another oxidizable material (aluminum).

In the steel fire with water, there is likewise an oxide (water) that is reduced, with the oxygen taken up by another oxidizeable material (iron).

Evan
06-05-2008, 10:36 PM
I recall the experiments I did with water on wax very clearly. There is much more going on besides a steam explosion. As usual I had protective equipment then as I was testing the experiment for my father to use in his science classes. I spent a lot of time in his science lab setting up experiments and making sure they worked properly and determining the safety aspects of the demonstration.

In particular, with the wax heated to the point of nearly flashing on it's own but well removed from the electric hot plate at the other end of the lab bench if a very small amount of water was dripped in from a pipette it would flash into a purple/violet flame but not spray any significant amount of wax around.

J Tiers
06-05-2008, 11:14 PM
if the temperature is known, one can determine if there is enough thermal energy to break the water in *significant* amounts.....

EVERYTHING is a balance......... and the equilibrium point moves.

Temperature is a well-known "equilibrium mover".