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Fasttrack
06-06-2008, 01:58 PM
:eek: I hope this doesn't turn into a huge argument... but ...

Lets say that I believe in following the machine instructions, and it advises using "high quality machine grade oil with viscosity measuring 275-290 saybolt at 100 degrees F"

What is 275-290 seconds saybolt in SAE or ISO designations? The table I was looking at suggests an SAE rating of ... 120, which can't be right!!

Thanks guys. I thought there was a table someone posted that had conversions but maybe not; I couldn't find it.

Fasttrack
06-06-2008, 02:02 PM
Oop - Nevermind, I found the chart!

Looks like I want an SAE 30 weight oil. I reckon ISO 68 Hydraulic oil would be ok too. Not much difference between hydraulic and machine oil, is there?

I'm planning on vacuoline for the ways, if I can find a source. Mobil says they still make it but the usual suppliers don't carry it.

jimmstruk
06-06-2008, 02:55 PM
As for way oil, I mixed some 15w40 and Lucas engine oil additive about 50/50, applied some on ways. Lasts 4 times longer than way oil. JIM

lazlo
06-06-2008, 03:10 PM
Just use chain saw lube and Get 'R Done ;)

That was a joke, by the way, before Forrest jumps all over me :)


Looks like I want an SAE 30 weight oil. I reckon ISO 68 Hydraulic oil would be ok too. Not much difference between hydraulic and machine oil, is there?

ISO 68 and SAE 30 is the same viscosity. I think you're asking about the difference between automotive SAE 30 oil and hydraulic oils, like the Mobil DTE series. The hydraulic/machinery oils have different "add packages" with anti-friction, anti-stiction, and anti-wear ingredients.

To make matters more complicated, Mobil's hydraulic oils, which seem to be the most common, come in "Named Series" ("Heavy", "Medium" and "Light") and "Numbered Series" (DTE 22, 24, 26). DTE Medium and DTE 24 are both ISO 68 viscosity. If you read the application sheet, there's very little difference between the two.

Especially for a home shop, it probably doesn't matter much, as long as you get the viscosity right. My Millrite manual calls for "SAE 30" oil, but doesn't specify what kind of oil.

My Clausing, on the other hand, specifies Mobil DTE 24 by name, which is a specific ISO 68 hydraulic oil. So I use what Clausing suggests, since the various hydraulic oils all cost roughly the same, especially if you order with free shipping from Enco.


I'm planning on vacuoline for the ways, if I can find a source. Mobil says they still make it but the usual suppliers don't carry it.

Mobil makes it for the printing press industry, but MSC et al don't carry it. I split a 5 gallon bucket with a friend from San Antonio -- he just called the local Mobil rep in San Antonio.

Fasttrack
06-06-2008, 07:33 PM
Thanks Lazlo! I'll see if I can find a mobil rep around here to buy a pail of the stuff.

I've got a bunch of Hy-Gard John Deere brand hydrualic fluid. It doesn't say what the viscosity is or anything usefull about it. I'll have to call a JD rep and see if its heavy enough. They also make a Low Viscosity Hy-Gard which seems pretty thin.

wierdscience
06-06-2008, 09:27 PM
McMaster-Carr carries a lot of the oddball stuff,it was the last place I bought the DTE-24.

Forrest Addy
06-06-2008, 10:03 PM
CHAIN SAW LUBE!!! QUAAACK! Quack! Quack!Quack, quack!

Oh! You were foolin'. Dang you Lazlo! Don't stir up grouchy old farts like that. It makes us incontinent. Now I gotta change my Depends.

tattoomike68
06-06-2008, 10:31 PM
CHAIN SAW LUBE!!! QUAAACK! Quack! Quack!Quack, quack!

Oh! You were foolin'. Dang you Lazlo! Don't stir up grouchy old farts like that. It makes us incontinent. Now I gotta change my Depends.


I like chain saw lub on my machine ways... :D

ulav8r
06-09-2008, 03:49 AM
Moore, of jig borer fame, sells Vacuoline. It was $25 per gallon last fall.

barts
06-09-2008, 11:15 AM
Note that the blurbs for vacuoline say:


Mobil Vacuoline 1400 Series oils are extra high performance lubricants specifically designed to satisfy the requirements of machine tools that use one oil for both hydraulic systems and way lubrication. They are formulated using high quality mineral base oils and a unique additive technology that provides excellent lubricity properties to eliminate stick-slip and chatter of heavily loaded and vertical box ways. They exhibit a high degree of oxidation and thermal stability that increases the service life and helps keep lubricated surfaces clean and free from corrosion or deposits that could detract from finished parts quality and accuracy. Mobil Vacuoline 1400 Series provide the optimum balance between these divergent requirements.

These products are the result of an innovative technology to meet the low frictional properties required to assure acceptable production levels of quality parts with minimum downtime in today's high output machine tools. They exhibit the ability to inhibit oxidation and the formation of lacquers and deposits on ways and in hydraulic systems while providing excellent load-carrying performance to control component wear and extend equipment service life.

Applications

* Machine tools with a common system for hydraulics and way lubrication
* Applications where cross-contamination of way lube with hydraulic oil can result in poor performance
* Machinery with separate systems for ways and hydraulics where one oil is desirable for both systems
* Areas where conventional mineral based lubricants are not adequately protecting way surface



Thus, you can use Vacuoline in more places than you think... handy if you don't want too many different pails of oil sitting about...

lazlo
06-09-2008, 11:48 AM
Moore, of jig borer fame, sells Vacuoline. It was $25 per gallon last fall.

Yowsa! Ttok (a quiet member here) and I split a 5 gallon pail of Vacuoline for $57 !

Fasttrack
06-09-2008, 12:53 PM
The manual reccomends Socony Vactra Heavy Medium X oil - what is the modern day equivalent of that?

I think I may just go with mobil vactra. I only need it for the slides, the vacuoline seems like over-kill.

lazlo
06-09-2008, 01:12 PM
Vacuoline is just the old Vactra formula. Mobil took most of the tackifiers (peritack) out of the modern Vactra to satisfy EPA requirements, so it doesn't cling like it used to.

Another way oil that still has the tackifiers is Hangsterfers, which MSC carries:

http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=4529601&PMT4NO=44181540

MSC/Enco's house brand way oil "Tru Edge" also still has the tackifiers.

If you search on PM, I did a little experiment with Vacouline, Vactra, and Tru Edge, and Vacuouline and Tru Edge clung tenaciously to a piece of smooth cold rolled, and Vactra just slid down the piece.

lazlo
06-09-2008, 01:15 PM
By the way, I think the Lucas engine oil additive is just peritack (tackifier) in a bottle, so you can probably add the Lucas stuff to Vactra until it clings like you like:


As for way oil, I mixed some 15w40 and Lucas engine oil additive about 50/50, applied some on ways. Lasts 4 times longer than way oil. JIM

Fasttrack
06-09-2008, 01:44 PM
Thanks Lazlo - you've been a tremendous help. Do you know what weight I should be looking for? Enco calls ISO 220 "medium" weight and since the plate says heavy medium, I'm guessing that is what I should go with.


I did read your previous posts about Hangsterfer's and True Edge and decided I'd buy one of those over the vactra. Vaculine has gone up alot and is hard to find. The closest mobil rep is quite a ways away.

Even the True Edge conventional stuff is up 60 some bucks per pail. A year ago, in the 2007 catalog, they were still 40 some bucks :(

lazlo
06-09-2008, 02:53 PM
Do you know what weight I should be looking for? Enco calls ISO 220 "medium" weight and since the plate says heavy medium, I'm guessing that is what I should go with.

ISO 220 weight is like molasses. Normal way oil (Vactra #2 et al) is ISO 68. You mentioned earlier that the manual called for "Vactra Heavy Medium", which is ISO 68:

http://www.mobil.com/USA-English/Lubes/PDS/GLXXENINDMOMobilVactraNamed_DoubleLetterSeries.asp


Even the True Edge conventional stuff is up 60 some bucks per pail. A year ago, in the 2007 catalog, they were still 40 some bucks :(

Ouch! Ttok and I bought the Vacuouline last Summer (IIRC) -- sounds like the prices have gone up a lot!

By the way, there's Tru Edge and Tru-Edge Semi-synthetic. The latter is what I have -- it's blended with molybdenum disufide. To be honest, I can't really tell a difference (in stiction) between the Vacuouline and the Tru Edge. I really don't like the Vactra #2 I have though...

pcarpenter
06-09-2008, 03:29 PM
As for the (non-detergent) automotive oils being about the same as hydraulic oils, I am not so sure I would equate them. One of the features of hydraulic oils which are pumped through orifices etc is that they are usually considered to be "low foaming". Whether this is through additives or other formulation changes, I do not know. I use hydraulic oil in my gear headstock on my lathe. I did add a small amount of the Lucas oil additive which really does cause it to climb the gears better, but this is probably not necessary...especially if your American Pacemaker is pressure lubricated. I use Mystic (Citgo) from the local Tractor Supply, by the way. If you really want DTE (Mobil's brand), its available mail order from Enco in Gallons and 5Gal pails as I recall. If you need it locally, Grainger also carries it according to their web site, if you have one of those nearby.

Back to the anti-foaming properties....this is a bit anecdotal since who knows what the rather dark, strong smelling Chinese egg-foo-goo was that came in my headstock, but it foamed badly and I did not leave it in very long. Here's a crappy cell phone pic. I cleaned out the headstock thoroughly even rinsing in Kerosene and dried it and then refilled with hydraulic oil. I have not seen this behavior at all with the hydraulic oil (ISO VG68).

Paulhttp://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n16/pfcarpenter/lathelubefoam3.jpg

lazlo
06-09-2008, 03:37 PM
I did add a small amount of the Lucas oil additive which really does cause it to climb the gears better, but this is probably not necessary...especially if your American Pacemaker is pressure lubricated.

Paul, how much Lucas did you add per gallon of headstock oil? Is there a recommendation on the bottle? I bet that would work really well in the apron too.

pcarpenter
06-09-2008, 04:20 PM
Sadly, I was not very methodical about adding the Lucas additive. I am generally not for putting in (in just about anything) a big bunch of additives as they reduce the amount of the lubricant you are supposed to use. My general take on it is that if you use the right lubricants, you don't need a bunch of additives. In this case, its not so critical as its just a bath, and the additive itself is a perfectly good lubricant.

I think there is about a gallon in my little 13x40 import lathe headstock...and maybe a cup or so of the Lucas oil additive. Their little demonstrators at the auto parts place are pretty instructive. They have sets of interlinked gears that you drive with a crank, and the lubricant only at the bottom. It crawls right up to the top gear under rotation.

One other place where I do use the Lucas additive is on the outboard gear train. Its very sticky stuff. I found that other oils just sling off quickly and grease squishes out almost immediately leaving little or no film. I can drip a drop on the outboard gear train that drives the feed/threading gear case and it clings and forms a web between the two running gears. Quiets it right down immediately. Since I don't engage the feed/threading gears all the time, I am toying with putting a Gits oil cup and little copper tube that will point right onto the largest gear in the train. I can just put a drop or two in it without pulling the end gear cover and let it run right down and drip on it when I do use it.

Edit-- you know, now that I think of it, I think what I did was to run the lathe with the headstock cover slid back so I could see, but not far enough that I flung oil everywhere and then squirted the Lucas additive in. The thinking was that it would help it mix rather than settle to the bottom, but it also is something you can see working and I just added it until I saw an improvement in gear cling. I would guess it was less than a cup, and it was more than 1 gallon of hydraulic oil because I remember remarking that the remainder of the 2 gallon jug was not going to be enough for a full oil change the next time.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n16/pfcarpenter/Kent%20lathe/PICT1041small.jpg

lynnl
06-11-2008, 03:02 PM
What auto parts store(s) carry this Lucas stuff?

I know I've seen that hand cranked gear demo model on an auto parts counter, but it's been a long time and I don't recall where it was.

pcarpenter
06-11-2008, 03:16 PM
I bought my Lucas oil additive at a regional farm supply chain (Farm and Fleet) because they have it on sale for like $5-6 a quart from time to time. I know I have seen it at my local OReilly's

I tend to believe that its probably the same stuff as STP but don't know that for sure. I read quite a bit lately about how the zinc content of motor oil (a high pressure lubricant that helps protect main and rod bearings) has been reduced. I think it was an environmental thing. I am tempted to go to adding the Lucas stuff or STP (both of which contain a zinc compound) to my motor oil too. I have never been a big proponent of oil additives, but I am also not fond of reducing the life of my engine as expensive as modern vehicles are so someone else can feel good about themselves.

Back to the lathe thing however...its pretty clear that the tacifiers really help the oil climb--pretty useful in an oil bath lubrication system where not all of the gears are fully submersed. I can watch the oil level really drop off in the sight glass when the lathe is running...which is not a bad thing....its being pulled out of the bottom of the gearcase and onto the gears and bearings. I also use the Lucas additive with hydraulic oil in the apron reservoir and QC gearcase as these are great examples of a gearcase where the upper gears depend on lubricant being carried up by the lower gears because the lower gears just barely dip into the small volume of oil held in reserve.

Paul

lazlo
06-11-2008, 06:57 PM
What auto parts store(s) carry this Lucas stuff?

Pep Boys.


I know I've seen that hand cranked gear demo model on an auto parts counter, but it's been a long time and I don't recall where it was.

My 5 year old daughter loves the Lucas gear model on display. She loves to turn the cranks and watch the oil climb up the gears, almost like magic :)

oldtiffie
06-11-2008, 07:14 PM
Still the best and most traditional lubricant of all is money.

It has kept and will continue to keep the wheels of industry and commerce going and grease many palms in the process - as it always has - and will.

In that context, in a scale of 1 to 10, the best lubricants are:
1. money
2. money
3. anything and everything else
4 to 10. doesn't matter

ulav8r
06-11-2008, 08:55 PM
Oldtiffee,

Where are the Wiki links to back up that "fact"? :confused:

tattoomike68
06-11-2008, 09:01 PM
Oldtiffee,

Where are the Wiki links to back up that "fact"? :confused:

LOL that was a good one.

oldtiffie
06-12-2008, 06:10 AM
Here's a start and a good example.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brent_Wilkes

Money, commerce, industry (and of course - "politics") as well as plenty of "palm-greasing" to "keep the wheels turning" are all there.

There are others, but if you are that interested, and if you are in the US in an election year, I'd suggest that you get off your "freckle" (as it is no longer a "salmon-pink smudge") and do some looking for yourselves.

And, for what its worth while I am on my soap-box in my now glass-less Glass-house, I am quite sure that it is not limited to the US. We've had some prime examples here.

"Now how is this related to the OP?" I hear you ask.

Because it is "greasing" (aka oiling) the prime screwing machine.

oldtiffie
06-12-2008, 06:43 AM
It seemed to me that the most direct and possibly best and quickest way to source first advice and then product would be from someone who has ample wide-ranging experience in such things and had customers (and his reputation and warranty costs/liabilities) depending on it was to ask.

Who best?

The Company that provides the machines and the warranties as you could bet that unhappy customers would have been pretty vocal about it.

And who might that be?

My supplier.

And that is what I did and why I use that "cold saw" oil in my geared head lathe and vertical mill.

http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=S092

And just in case there are any questions as to what the "Cold saw" is -here they are:
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Search

My next "shot", had the need arisen, would have been a visit to some of the (small/medium) "Production" and "Jobbing" shops here.

Really, the question could have been re-phrased to ask what is best for the ranges of use, size and age of machines in a typical or specific HSM shop. Or perhaps what not to use in these cases - and in both cases - "Why".

The oil for cold-saws that we get in the Winter? We get that from a Supermarket, or a Pharmacy (here) "Drug Store"?? (US?) - and get stuff for sniffles, cold-sores and chill-blains while we are at it.