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38_Cal
06-25-2008, 12:37 AM
I've got a job coming up where I'll need a collet closer setup for my 11x24" Rockwell-Delta lathe with an L-00 spindle nose. Anyone out there got a surplus setup or good drawings/photos of such a setup? TIA! :D

David
Montezuma, IA

lazlo
06-25-2008, 01:08 AM
Hi David,

I have a Royal 5C closer on my Clausing, but the L-00 spindle mount doesn't really factor in much. You have the standard Royal lever mechanism at the back, the typical collet tube, and a spindle taper to 5C adapter (4 1/2 MT to 5C, in the case of the Clausings, Rockwell has a very similar, but proprietary adapter).

There's a L-00 nose piece, but that's mostly to make it easier to eject the 5C collets, and isn't really mandatory, especially in a non-production environment.

A hand-wheel closer is pretty simply -- just a thrust bearing between the handwheel and the collet tube. You can make the 5c tube out of DOM tubing (Aircraft Spruce is one source), but you'll have to find the Rockwell taper to 5C adapter.

Good luck,

Robert

doctor demo
06-25-2008, 01:50 AM
David, I have a Rockwell 10'' screw machine that I just picked up. It has a lever closer on it, but I have not had it long enough to examine it yet. When I go to the shop wednesday I'll look more closely at it.
Steve

Dave, I checked on the delta rockwell today and it is actualy an 11'' not a 10'' like I thought.
The nose piece is home made from a piece of alum and beat up .
The spindle/morse adapter is not too bad , and measures as follows :1.544 od at large end, 1.447 at small end , 1.960 length of taper, .565 thick flange at front 2.490 od. Bored for 5c .
If you can't find one for your machine and would like to use this one, all it will cost you is postage and a promise to return it when finished with it



.
Steve

Chipslinger
06-25-2008, 07:33 AM
IIRC a Rockwell 14 w/a L00 nose is a 4 1/2 morse taper . there was something on this a couple of months ago I think Wolfie had pics.

JCHannum
06-25-2008, 08:24 AM
You will need an L00 nose protector of some sort to keep the nut from flopping around. These are not too difficult to make. Otherwise, the drawbar and collet adaptor are the same as any other setup.

lazlo
06-25-2008, 12:44 PM
You will need an L00 nose protector of some sort to keep the nut from flopping around.

You don't on the Clausing JC -- the MT 4 1/2 -> 5C adapter fits entirely inside the spindle taper. I've run my lever closer without the nose protector. It just protects the spindle threads and makes it easier to eject the collets.

quasi
06-25-2008, 12:47 PM
are you sure it is not a Yarno taper, like a 10L Southbend or 12" Harrison has?

lazlo
06-25-2008, 12:51 PM
are you sure it is not a Yarno taper

LOL Quasi! We keep having this discussion :) I think you mean a "Jarno" taper, but the Rockwell has a proprietary MT 4 1/2 taper:

When is a Morse Taper not a Morse Taper? (Lathe spindle noses.) (http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=28258&page=3&)


MT 4 1/2 ___________ small=1.266 inch, large=1.500 inch, taper=.62400 in/ft
MT 5 [Rockwell]_____ small=1.442 inch, large=1.545 inch, taper=.63151 in/ft
MT 5 [Sheldon]______ small=1.485 inch, large=1.620 inch, taper=.5891 in/ft
MT 5 [Southbend 10L] small=1.532 inch, large=1.629 inch, taper=.6024 in/ft


The reason these tweener tapers come up is because the MT4 gage line is too small to pass the largest 5C collet, and an MT 5 spindle is a lot larger than normal for a 10 - 12" lathe.

The Clausing MT 4 1/2 is actually an ASA standard (it's in Machinery's Handbook, if you can believe it).
http://www.loganact.com//tips/tapers.htm

The Rockwell/Sheldon/Southbends all have proprietary MT 4 1/2 variants: they shorten the Morse Taper at different points, which makes them incompatible. The Rockwell is actually a shortened MT5, with the MT5 taper. The Southbend uses a shortened MT5 with the MT3 taper (bizzarre).

JCHannum
06-25-2008, 02:12 PM
You don't on the Clausing JC -- the MT 4 1/2 -> 5C adapter fits entirely inside the spindle taper. I've run my lever closer without the nose protector. It just protects the spindle threads and makes it easier to eject the collets.
With an L0 series mount, there are no spindle threads, they are on the chuck. The nut is loose on the spindle unless some means to retain it is used.

lazlo
06-25-2008, 07:37 PM
With an L0 series mount, there are no spindle threads, they are on the chuck. The nut is loose on the spindle unless some means to retain it is used.

JC, the spindle nose protectors are meant to protect threaded spindles. Since the L-XX spindles don't have external threads, the nose protector is completely superfluous.

Here's my bare naked Clausing 5914:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/5CCloser001s.jpg

Here's the Clausing with the L-00 spindle nose protector screwed in:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/5CCloser002s.jpg

Now here's the Clausing with the MT 4 1/2 -> 5C adapter installed inside the spindle taper. Notice that I took off the useless nose protector:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/5CCloser003s.jpg

...and finally, here's a 5C collet drawn into the Clausing's spindle, ready to turn. The 5C drawbar pulls the adapter into the spindle. It's rock-solid, and not flopping around. Notice that not only do I not have the nose protector installed, but I don't even have the L-00 key installed (I'm finishing-up the paint):

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/5CCloser004s.jpg

lazlo
06-25-2008, 07:58 PM
Last picture. The MT 4 1/2 to 5C adapter on the left, the L-00 spindle nose protector on the right. David really just needs the drawbar, closer, and the Rockwell taper to 5 adapter, he doesn't really need the spindle nose protector on the right:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/5CCloser014s.jpg

By the way, although the L-00 lathes all have incompatible spindle tapers, and therefore need proprietary spindle taper -> 5C adapters, the spindle nose protector is just a miniature L-00 chuck, so spindle nose protectors are interchangeable. You just don't need one ;)

38_Cal
06-25-2008, 09:45 PM
Thank you! This is great info to have...the light at the end of the tunnel isn't a freight train!

David
Montezuma, IA

JCHannum
06-25-2008, 09:52 PM
I fully understand the setup of the Type L spindle. I do not believe it is a good idea to operate the lathe with the chuck retaining nut unrestrained. The nose protector provides this function as well as providing a smooth surface, preventing potential snagging by the key. To each his own, but I would prefer to have a protector in place for both reasons.

I made my own draw bar and 5C adaptor for my Sheldon, and made the nose protector out of plastic as that was the largest OD piece of stock I had on hand at the time, it can be of any material, but it makes things more comfortable when working close to the collet particularly when performing a hand operation such as filing.

lazlo
06-25-2008, 10:15 PM
I fully understand the setup of the Type L spindle. I do not believe it is a good idea to operate the lathe with the chuck retaining nut unrestrained. The nose protector provides this function as well as providing a smooth surface, preventing potential snagging by the key.

I'll agree with the latter part: the nose protector shields the L-00 key, but I don't follow the former part JC. Are you saying you don't like having the L-00 collar loose while the spindle is running? Why?

By the way, the other purpose of the L-00 nut is to wedge the 5C adapter out with a screwdriver after you've ejected the collet :D I don't do this, but every nose protector nut I've ever seen has wedge marks on it, and some folks (like Joe Bergamo at Plaza Machinery) call it a "knock-out nut."

Different strokes...

JCHannum
06-25-2008, 11:18 PM
It does not seem like a good idea to have anything loose on a lathe spindle. While it might not harm it, I doubt that it does it any good as it was designed to be fastened to the chuck thread. When using collets, the work is usually small diameter, requiring high spindle speeds and anything unattached has the potential to either cause damage or damage itself.

The nose protector is easy to make if you can't readily obtain one, and only takes a few seconds to install and remove, so why not use it?

rdfeil
06-26-2008, 01:12 AM
Lazlo and JC,

Not trying to start a fight but I have to agree with JC on this one. My LeBlond is a L-0 and if it is run without a chuck (bare nosed) the collar nut will get to 'chattering' on the spindle. This may not cause a problem but it just seems wrong to have things rattling on the spindle:rolleyes: . Also, a nose cap will protect both the spindle/keyway and the operator in the event of a mishap.

Robin

lazlo
06-26-2008, 09:41 AM
My LeBlond is a L-0 and if it is run without a chuck (bare nosed) the collar nut will get to 'chattering' on the spindle. This may not cause a problem but it just seems wrong to have things rattling on the spindle:rolleyes: . Also, a nose cap will protect both the spindle/keyway and the operator in the event of a mishap.

I agree Robin -- I thought about the big L-00 key spinning around next to the collet last night. It's nice to have a big, hardened, relatively disposable hunk of steel or cast iron covering all that while you're doing collet work.

I usually use the nose protector myself, but I was trying to make the point that the L-00 system doesn't really come into play when you're designing/building a closer -- you build the closer around the inside spindle taper, which is the proprietary Rockwell MT 4 1/2, not L-00. If David needs to get something up and running quickly, he can get by with a shop-built handwheel/thrust bearing/5C collet tube system.

L-00 nose protectors do occasionally show up on Ebay, but they're not particularly common. Joe Bergamo (Plaza Machinery) might have one -- they usually go for $65 - $100.

rdfeil
06-27-2008, 01:13 AM
Lazlo,

I understand and agree completely. The L taper has no effect on the closer or the collets. Quick and dirty works well when needed. I would remove the spindle key if I were going to run bare nosed just for safety. If a person wants a project and has a chuck, make a protector:D . I would use UHMW as it machines like butter and will work as a protector. The taper is easy to set with an indicator on the spindle nose. The threading would be VERY fun, I think it is 4.5 per inch Tunr slow goes quick:D . The keyway would be the most challenging, broach on the taper if you have a broach, or mill it as it doesn't carry a load being a protector the fit can be sloppy loose.
Just a thought.

Robin

MikeHenry
06-27-2008, 01:38 PM
Laslo,

Is your nose protector made of steel or cast iron? I have 2 of them, one of which was probably original to my 5914, and they are both made of aluminum. I'm just curious which type of material was most common.

Chipslinger
06-27-2008, 02:12 PM
L00 face plates go for around 20 bucks on ebay. it goes on a lathe cut it DOWN.:rolleyes:

38_Cal
06-27-2008, 02:34 PM
L00 face plates go for around 20 bucks on ebay. it goes on a lathe cut it DOWN.:rolleyes:

Thanks, Chipslinger! I had already thought of that, and had just bookmarked the one on EvilBay right before I read your post. Great minds think alike! :D

David
Montezuma, IA

BadDog
06-27-2008, 04:01 PM
In my experience, L00 face plates go for well over $20 on ebay. However, dog drivers go for less, and used chuck backing plates (when found) for even less. I would look into getting a POS L00 chuck (I've had folks give me those) and using it's backing plate. In fact, L00 4 jaws often have a bolt on mount that looks almost exactly like a standard nose protector...

lazlo
06-27-2008, 04:04 PM
Laslo,

Is your nose protector made of steel or cast iron? I have 2 of them, one of which was probably original to my 5914, and they are both made of aluminum.

Mine's hardened cast iron Mike. The OEM Royal nose protectors were aluminum.


L00 face plates go for around 20 bucks on ebay. it goes on a lathe cut it DOWN.

I wish. L-00 faceplates are $75 - $100 on Ebay.

BadDog's idea of the L-00 Dog Driver is better: they usually go for $35 - $50:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280238239722

Edit: just found this L-00 dog driver for $35 BIN:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320268191697

...and here's an actual L-00 spindle protector for $85. Note that it also has the L-00 collar nut, which you wouldn't need...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170209886002

Chipslinger
06-27-2008, 06:29 PM
Thanks, Chipslinger! I had already thought of that, and had just bookmarked the one on EvilBay right before I read your post. Great minds think alike! :D

David
Montezuma, IA

We are Iowans,go figure. :o

Chipslinger
06-27-2008, 06:33 PM
Mine's hardened cast iron Mike. The OEM Royal nose protectors were aluminum.



I wish. L-00 faceplates are $75 - $100 on Ebay.

BadDog's idea of the L-00 Dog Driver is better: they usually go for $35 - $50:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=280238239722

Here's another one from the same seller. Of course, by the Heisenberg uncertainty principle, now that I've posted it, the price will go up ;)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270250224475

Edit: just found this L-00 dog driver for $35 BIN:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=320268191697

...and here's an actual L-00 spindle protector for $85. Note that it also has the L-00 collar nut, which you wouldn't need...

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170209886002
Damn, and me without any proof, I bought one last year for $17.50 and $10 s&h. But I am sure times have changed, now that the cat is out of the bag everyone will drive them up.:mad:

lazlo
06-27-2008, 06:59 PM
Damn, and me without any proof, I bought one last year for $17.50 and $10 s&h.

Man, you got lucky! Was that a dog driver, or a face plate?


But I am sure times have changed, now that the cat is out of the bag everyone will drive them up.:mad:

Not likely. Everyone with a L-00 lathe (myself, JC, Russ/BadDog, ...) has a nightly Ebay search scanning for L-00, L00, L-OO, ... :D

Chipslinger
06-27-2008, 07:40 PM
I had to cut 4" off the thing so I assume it WAS a faceplate, Its a SNP now.

BadDog
06-27-2008, 07:57 PM
Man, you got lucky! Was that a dog driver, or a face plate?

I'll say! I would LOVE to find one for that price! And I can tell you this, I've missed MANY with a $50 snipe!

Not likely. Everyone with a L-00 lathe (myself, JC, Russ/BadDog, ...) has a nightly Ebay search scanning for L-00, L00, L-OO, ... :D
You better believe it. But that may be changing. I'm tring to figure out how to fit a 16x60 in my shop, so I'll be moving to a D1-6 if I take the bait...

lazlo
06-27-2008, 09:12 PM
Russ, did you buy a Mori? :D

JCHannum
06-27-2008, 09:47 PM
My Sheldon spindle is 2-1/4 8TPI. Check the seller on those two dog plates.

Rich Carlstedt
06-27-2008, 09:52 PM
Deleted due to missed page with correct info

BadDog
06-27-2008, 10:05 PM
Nope, it's a Taiwan semi-clone. Got some nice features including a near new Newal DRO. Big mutha, too big really... But I'll PM rather than go further OT here...