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Fasttrack
06-30-2008, 10:22 PM
Well guys, I've finally made it back home and I'm working on uploading some 200 pictures and videos onto photo bucket to post here. Don't worry, I won't post all of them!

Here's the whole story:
(Skip to the bottom for photos and list of awesome tooling)

I started seriously looking for a used lathe back in the late months of winter after seeing a SB heavy 10 go to auction at my university. Luckily, I lost the bid on that tiny piece of junk! :-) Then, I almost bought a really nice Sheldon for 800 bucks, but I was a few hours too late. Lucky again! I decided to join the PM forum and I posted a "want" ad over there. I said I was looking for a used, quality medium to heavy duty lathe in the Missouri area.

I just happened to get a message from a truly awesome guy who goes by the username "ions82". He is an awesome and inspiring individual, well worth doing business with.

Anyway, it happened that he had a 1943 Pacemaker that he had been thinking about selling. He needed shop space and didn't want something quite that big for various reasons. At first, I wasn't sure he was going to part with it and he was asking $2500 for a 16 by 30, well tooled.

After many emails back and forth, he mentioned that he had the good fortune to come to own a SECOND 16 by 30 pacemaker, date 1945. It had sat quite a bit outside and had some issues including a busted up z-axis handwheel. Now he could have sold this lathe separately, but he decided that he would let me take away BOTH machines for the price of the first one!!!! I couldn't believe it. Only trouble was that he was out in NM.

Finally my brother in law and I made it out there in his big rig and picked up the two machines. It was a great experience and I have an enormous amount of respect for Ions82, but that is a whole other story!

Along with two wonderful machines, I walked away with a large crate of tooling and a new friend.

Some specifics:
The first is a 1943 Style C Pacemaker. It has had some new bearings and bushings in the carriage, compound, and feed rod/lead screw support. All new belts, new motor control box, and a 7.5 HP GE motor. It is in great working condition except for two issues. The first is a sheared key in the apron. When trying to cut a keyway in the lathe, the handwheel slips. It does fine while cutting something, but it slips if the carriage is moved too far towards or away from the headstock. This brings me to the next problem... worn slides! There is noticeable wear in all the sliding parts, but not enough to really concern me. A test bar showed that, despite the obvious wear (the carriage gets so tight towards one end that the handwheel slips!) it still cuts a truer test bar at 1" dia than does my brand-new Smithy lathe. It holds .002 in 24" and some of that may be due to flex since there was no follow or steady rest and the DOC was .1 :-D

The second machine is a 1945 Style C. Everything appears to be original, including a 7.5 HP Sterling Motor and control box. It was purchased by the US Navy in 1945 and then placed in the National Industrial Reserve before 1948. After which time it sat until 1975 or possibly later before being donated to the community college where it spent a quite a bit of time sitting outside. There are stains from the sulfurized cutting oil that mark where the carriage sat for a long time. There is almost no wear anywhere on the lathe. In fact, there is still the factory frosting on the cross-slide and on the compound, although the cross-slide has some scratches in it from careless students. It needs a lot of work and I plan to post at least four and probably more threads outlining all the work I've done to it. So far, I've fixed a sheared key in the apron, repaired the busted up handwheel and cracked casting, repaired a severely damaged taper attachment (oh yeah it came with the anti-friction TA!) and next up is to fix the tailstock and finish repairing a part on the compound. The quill doesn't move on the TS... I'm afraid it may have a stripped nut...

Alright, enough talking. Here are some pictures and the list of tooling. I will post a few more times for photos . I'd also like to share a video of the '43 in action making a part for the '45

On the semi in NM:
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0336.jpg

On the trailer but back in the shop:
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0391.jpg

The 1945:
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0392.jpg

The 1943:
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0446.jpg

List of tooling included:
Cushman Chucks 10" 3 jaw 10" 4 jaw 12" 3 jaw 12" 4 jaw
12" 4 jaw with "Lathe 10" emblem
Bison Never-before-used 10" 3 jaw chuck
Hardinge Brothers Inc - SJORGEN "Speed Chuck" 2J collet chuck
Hardinge 2J collets, 1/4" to 1&1/8" by eighths and a few misc sizes like 5/16 and 9/16 and 17/32
Dormer and "Collis" Various taper adapters, everything from MT1 to MT4
SkyHook Toolpost hoist for changing chucks
Jacobs two number 14 ball bearing chucks
Supreme Chuck ball bearing chuck, 1/8-3/4 capacity
12 assorted Q/C tool holders, including Aloris, Armstrong, and Dorian. Only one "made in china" piece
Two Q/C tool posts. Both are wedge style, one is larger than the other by quite a bit and is a Dorian product, the other is PhaseII
Dorian Collet holder for Q/C post
McCrosky Turret tool post - 1&1/4" capacity
Kennametal 1&1/2" diameter boring bar and Q/C holder for bar and a 1&1/4" Insert holder
Sandvik Coromant Insert holders, both LH and RH and a threading/grooving one along with a whole bunch of spare clamps, screws and carbide inserts for turning, threading and grooving
Spe-D-Cut insert holder
Fostoria work light
Splash shield, ATW steady rest, ATW micrometer stop
Fasco Industries Coolant pump and resevoir
The Ruthman Machinery Co "Gusher" coolant pump and resevoir
Also there is a third pump attached to the built in resevoir on the '45 lathe.
I forgot the two NEW Ritten live centers!


p.s. Thanks everyone for supporting me when I was searching for these machines. Special thanks to Forrest Addy, Lane, Lazlo and many others for helping with specific questions and encouraging me to purchase the lathes.

Fasttrack
06-30-2008, 10:23 PM
Alright, here goes some more pictures

The Scary Part! (This is the 1943 being removed)
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0457.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0458.jpg

The hoist in action!
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0475.jpg

The 1945 after removing some parts and washing:
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0615.jpg

Fasttrack
06-30-2008, 10:24 PM
And some pictures of the tooling ... I may have gotten carried away with the pictures... :-)

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0452.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0459.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0465.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0463.jpg

Fasttrack
06-30-2008, 10:27 PM
A few last pics I couldn't help sharing... In case you can't tell, I am very very excited!

The 1945 Cross-slide:
http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0610.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0466.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0467.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0471.jpg

psomero
06-30-2008, 10:27 PM
i haven't been on here in a long time and when i came back, everybody was mentioning pacemakers. i knew i was one of the youngest people on here (just turned 22 last month), but i was a little worried there about the repeated mention of pacemakers.

never realized there was a pacemaker lathe, though. talk about a relief when i finally put that together in my head...

Fasttrack
06-30-2008, 10:34 PM
LOL I got you beat - I'm 19 and I don't need a medical pacemaker, yet! :D

I didn't know about them either until I started doing research. Lathes.co.uk is a great place to learn more about them but I first read about them from some members here who placed them in the "super lathe" category.

Here is a thread talking about them:
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=115875&highlight=super+duty+lathes

lazlo
06-30-2008, 10:37 PM
I hate to tell you this Fasttrack, but that lathe isn't rigid enough for carbide :D

Beautiful machine, and a great haul on the tooling!

rmack898
06-30-2008, 10:57 PM
Tom,
That's an incredible score! Tool porn if I ever did see it. Good luck with them and enjoy!!

deltaenterprizes
06-30-2008, 11:08 PM
We had two of those in the first shop I worked in,beds were a little longer very nice machines to operate,yours looks in much better shape.

lane
06-30-2008, 11:21 PM
I sure hate to bust your bubble fastrack . But those aint hobby shop lathes those are the real Mc Coy.The only thing I see wrong is it sure would have been nice if one was at least 60 inches between centers. A little short for my liking.Nice haul kid.

psomero
06-30-2008, 11:44 PM
man, it looks like you've got some serious space problems on your hands there. too bad there isn't a way to bandsaw half of your space off and have it shipped to my house...

those two machines do look like a hell of a find, though. hope you enjoy them.

DR
07-01-2008, 12:04 AM
So, how much did you have to pay?

And what will you be doing with them?

Fasttrack
07-01-2008, 12:05 AM
I hate to tell you this Fasttrack, but that lathe isn't rigid enough for carbide :D

Beautiful machine, and a great haul on the tooling!


Damn ... I guess I better just pack up all my carbide and send it to you, huh?

Lane - Yep, exactly what I thought too. For the price and given the tooling and condition, I was happy. Since my brother-in-law had a semi truck, we actually made money going out to NM anyway, so it worked out well. Ideally, though, it would be a 54" or longer. Oh well, you can't have it all! Besides, it took me alot of hours at minimum wage to save up for these puppies :)

Psomero - Yeah! I'm keeping them in my brother-in-law's shop. Its 60' by 200' or something like that. I think its actually bigger, but its huge either way! Looks small when you have a two-story combine or new 4 wd tractor in there.

I figure I will leave one of the lathes behind with him as a sign of appreciation for letting me work out of his shop until I get a place of my own. He seems enthusiastic. In fact, he wants to buy a mill now :D

A.K. Boomer
07-01-2008, 12:23 AM
I remember the thread on here about these machines, You didnt just buy a couple of lathes, you got cherself a piece of proud American history thar feller,

one word; Bombproof (grand score)

ZINOM
07-01-2008, 12:44 AM
Good lord Fasttrack...great luck for you...may you always be so lucky!

Now to have some fun.

John

cijuanni
07-01-2008, 01:04 AM
Great score!!!

But, I want to know how I get a brother in law with that TRUCK!
Oh the stuff I could haul home. :)

Fasttrack
07-01-2008, 01:07 AM
Good lord Fasttrack...great luck for you...may you always be so lucky!

Now to have some fun.

John


You know John, you are absolutely right. Its getting late and I'm getting reflective, which means I will probably ramble but ...

This past year I can't help but feel incredibly lucky. I've never had a year that was so good (I guess that bodes ill for the following years!) and today, on my way back home, I was listening to Randy Pauch's Last Lecture book on cd. He talks about achieving childhood dreams, but not in the normal motivational speaker way. I couldn't help but realize just how incredible life has been. My childhood dreams were three: be a scientist, have a go-kart, and be Norm Abram (sp?) on "This Old House". And I am so incredibly greatful to have been able to live out my dreams.

I built a real, functional go-kart with almost no cash scrounging parts by the time I was a sophmore in high school. (Previous to that were the wooden go-kart attempts. Those had a bad habbit of pushing the steering column through the plywood bottom when you hit a curb) Although I no longer desire to be Norm, I still have a passion for teaching and I am so lucky to be able to go to college and study to be a professor. I get to combine my passion for teaching with my passion for science while working in an amazing atmosphere.

I've got a family that loves me, a nephew and two nieces that I adore and I've got parents who have encouraged my curiosity and ambition. I built forts and then argued with the homeowner's association when the told me to take it down. I built a 2 story trebuchet, which the homeowner's also told me to take down, I transformed my mother's side of the garage into a shop, I dug a four foot hole in the backyard just to hide in while playing "army". How many parents would let their kids get away with this behavior?

And now, due to the grace of God, the kindness of others, especially my sister and brother-in-law, and generally just good fortune I am able to buy two beautiful lathes. Long before I bought my combo machine, back when I was trying to figure out how to make a go-kart (i.e. 4th-5th grade) I dreamt of having machines to make any part I could possibly need. And now I am well on my way to owning a shop that can produce almost any part I will need.

To be able to work in metal like we do or be able to work in science as I hope to be able to is really an incredible blessing. This past year I have been thankful everyday, even while stressed out and bogged down with homework, that I am where I am right now.

So I guess I want to thank everyone. I've learned alot here and you (collectively) have set me on a path to many expensive machine tools :)

Also, I want to appologize. I can be stubborn and arrogant. I try not to be, but I am not perfect so I am sorry to those that I have unjustly snubbed or otherwise offended. I hope you can forgive me and not hold my precocious behavior against me.

Tom


edit: cijuanni - I guess you just have to be lucky! ;) :D

hardtail
07-01-2008, 01:49 AM
Kid you have a lot of philosophy, humility and appreciation for your years.....smile

That looks like a kick a$$ shop that they have found a new home in........bad news is the ironitis is gonna break you fillin it up.......

Looks like a new JD combine sittin in the background, this on a farm?

Congrats on the new acquisitions, we need more like you............

pntrbl
07-01-2008, 01:52 AM
That's a fine looking pair of machines FT. I'm sure you'll use them well.

SP

BadDog
07-01-2008, 02:14 AM
Congrats on that fine haul! I'm green with Envy! I just wish I had the space for such a find. But just remember, be careful! Those big fellas can do some horrendous damage in a single moment of distraction...

torker
07-01-2008, 09:26 AM
Fasttrack!! You done good! Pretty nice score alright!

A.K. Boomer
07-01-2008, 10:04 AM
Also, I want to appologize. I can be stubborn and arrogant. I try not to be, but I am not perfect so I am sorry to those that I have unjustly snubbed or otherwise offended. I hope you can forgive me and not hold my precocious behavior against me.

Tom


edit: cijuanni - I guess you just have to be lucky! ;) :D



If its any consolation you seem to back up any slight hint of arrogance (I really never noticed ((and im the "king":p )) with a pretty fair grip of knowledge --- what just shocked the hell out of me in this thread was learning you are only 19!:eek: Never would have guessed.
Youv got an unbelievable start on things -- when I was your age I was fixated on trying to drink as much beer as I could guzzle and also trying to cork every girl in town --- decades later - Im glad i got "most" of that out of my system (but it sure was fun)
Fasttrack, your name suits you - you have leapfrogged your way into some very cool stuff --- it will be interesting to see your rapid progress, Take Badogs advice and be careful with those beasts --- lots of power there,
Kudo's and good luck to you Young man.

Alistair Hosie
07-01-2008, 02:44 PM
Nice lathes well done ! Well you sure got a great big truck for two little machines was that not a bit of overkill? still well done have fun Alistair

Fasttrack
07-01-2008, 03:56 PM
Hardtail - Thanks! That combine is actually 5 years old. Its a 9860 STS and will likely be replaced in another 2 or 3 years. Its a row-crop farm, about 2000 acres.

Thanks AK, I appreciate that.

Thanks to everyone else too! Everytime I start up these big machines I think about that infamous thread here a while back that had a link to a man who was killed while using a large lathe. These certainly demand more respect than my little Smithy when it comes to safety issues!

Alistair - Each lathe weighs in at 8200 lbs according to the manual. Along with all the tooling, 17000lbs is a bit much to pull behind an ordinary pick-up! Plus, with this truck we could take a load out there and make money. We hauled a load of steel to a fab shop first in Ft. Worth and then on to Clovis. Pretty neat seeing the steel mill. They take round rod and tubing and roll it into square tubing and solid square!

quasi
07-01-2008, 06:08 PM
those lathes are so good, you now have nowhere to go but down! I think you owe your brother in law big time, as well as the gentlemen that sold you them. Up here a dealer would want 8000$ or more each for them.

Alguy
07-01-2008, 06:40 PM
Nice score , Be sure you keep the rust fairys away , in our unheated barns in Ohio they like to show up.

A.K. Boomer
07-02-2008, 09:38 AM
It does fine while cutting something, but it slips if the carriage is moved too far towards or away from the headstock. This brings me to the next problem... worn slides! There is noticeable wear in all the sliding parts,.


Fasttrack, remember your original pacemaker post and the info that was uncovered;

"The outside bed vee's were detachable, made from tool steel hardened to 60 Rockwell and designed to be replaceable should the need arise."

Perhaps you can either build one really tight lathe and keep one a "beater" or you could actually still find replacement bed vee's for the one thats worn, I really like the design on those --- I wish I had a little baby one to put in my basement.

wierdscience
07-02-2008, 09:47 AM
Two Pacemakers for less than the price of one.

Okay I officially hate you,can I be in your will?:D:D

A.K. Boomer
07-02-2008, 09:58 AM
You cant hate em Weird --- I already tried and it dont work, He's too damn grateful, he even put in a plug for his parents, Damn, there's nothing bad to get ahold of and run with:p

I just gave this thread a 5 star

To me this thread is the most inspiring that Iv come across in along time, It give's me a little hope that the world is not doomed, That there are still kids out there that are not only going to carry the torch but carry it high and proud, FT im suspecting the guy who sold you the lathes seen the same thing, he sounds cool and like all he really wanted was to see them go to someone who was going to take the time and take care of them,
You give your parents credit and that is so very cool, But pat yourself on the back too fella --- many of kids are handed the opportunities that you have and they just piss it away with a sour ass attitude, Long live the pacemakers!

mcassill
07-02-2008, 11:17 AM
Yup, you did real well there. I found a 16" by 60 Pacemaker from 1953 on ebay out of Chicago a year ago; have had no end of fun with it. 15 HP (!!) demands a good deal of care with the workholding and everything else, but oh lordy will it make the chips fly. It came with one 3-jaw that was pretty well clapped out; I have now replaced that with a 12" Bison 6-jaw for most bar work. Enjoy!!
Mark

john hobdeclipe
07-02-2008, 11:21 AM
Good deal, Fasttrack, Really good deal. I'm impressed. You're off to a good start.

S_J_H
07-02-2008, 11:35 AM
Oh how I would love to have one of those machines! Good score!!

Steve

pcarpenter
07-02-2008, 12:48 PM
Tom-- you have a good head on your shoulders and that will take you far. Its great that you appreciate and respect your parents as that's all too rare nowdays. Take good care of those machines...they are history that is disappearing as more and more stuff like that just gets melted. How sad.

Those are really nice machines and well tooled to start with. The other thing you have going for you with a larger lathe is that you can find lots of surplus tooling too big for many of the rest of us to use.

I believe you are from somewhere in northern Illinois (when not away at school). If you get down to central Il, stop in and visit, and I will take you to one of my favorite used tooling places. They have less and less tooling and more and more other industrial surplus, but there are lots of toolholders floating around that you could use, for example. Of course you probably have access to even more places like that around Chicago.

Paul

DR
07-02-2008, 03:35 PM
Fasttrack, remember your original pacemaker post and the info that was uncovered;

"The outside bed vee's were detachable, made from tool steel hardened to 60 Rockwell and designed to be replaceable should the need arise."

Perhaps you can either build one really tight lathe and keep one a "beater" or you could actually still find replacement bed vee's for the one thats worn, I really like the design on those --- I wish I had a little baby one to put in my basement.

I'm sure some one will correct this info if it's iwrong.....

I was told years ago regarding a LeBlond lathe with similar ways that while replaceable, they still have to be ground after installation ($$$$$$).


About the Pacemaker's.......I had an opportunity to buy one for a very good price not long ago. After trying it for a half hour, I passed on it. It became apparent you'd need arms like Popeye to run the thing all day, that carriage takes some effort to move. The other issue was how hard it was to get any feel for the cut, definitely not for fine work. That machine also only had the 1000 rpm spindle, I needed faster.

These machines appear in better condition to the one I looked at. I wonder if the same issues as I experienced apply here.

Scishopguy
07-02-2008, 05:12 PM
About the Pacemaker's.......I had an opportunity to buy one for a very good price not long ago. After trying it for a half hour, I passed on it. It became apparent you'd need arms like Popeye to run the thing all day, that carriage takes some effort to move. The other issue was how hard it was to get any feel for the cut, definitely not for fine work. That machine also only had the 1000 rpm spindle, I needed faster.

These machines appear in better condition to the one I looked at. I wonder if the same issues as I experienced apply here.

Dr...I had a 16"x 40" 1952 model at my last work place. I know what you mean about the "feel" of the handwheels but I got used to it very quickly. That was just on the longitudinal feed and the wheel was large to make it easier to drag that huge tailstock with the spring pin in the carriage apron. What I really liked about it was the friction clutch. When cutting large threads (3 or 4 TPI) you could ride the clutch and get really fine control, which made internal threading to a shoulder a piece of cake. I would dearly love to find one of those sweet old girls somewhere for cheap.

Dragons_fire
07-02-2008, 05:50 PM
Nice score...

i didnt realize there was as many young guys around here as there is.... im 24 and got ym first lathe ( a busybee 10x18) when i was 20. i wanted one since i was about 12 though!!

Fasttrack
07-02-2008, 10:25 PM
AK - I don't really know what to say besides thanks, so thank you!

As far as the replaceable ways goes, they did not become standard until 1955. Before that, they were costly extras. Bourn and Koch still produces OEM parts for pacemaker, including the replaceable V's. They do not need to be ground once installed, however they do need to be professionally installed. Each bolt has to be adjusted and tweaked just right to get the V lined up correctly. The cost of doing this is comparable to having the soft ways ground/scraped.

For the one lathe that is worn, I'd like to some day have it machined and turcite installed. Given that each lathe only cost me say 1000, I reckon I can spend another $5000 on getting it in top-notch shape and for the price of one new import machine, I'll have one heck of a lathe. I don't have that kind of money right now, but its something to save for eventually.

Thanks Paul - I'd like to do that sometime. It'd be neat just to take a look around, if nothing else!

DR - I've not noticed that. I got used to using a cinci tray top at school that was pretty large as well. The movement on the pacemakers is actually alot smoother and you learn to trust the machine on delicate stuff. I wouldn't use it for anything smaller than 3/8" but for anything large you get a pretty good feel of what's going on. Moving the tailstock is heavy work, but the rest didn't seem bad at all. Especially with rapid-traverse on the long ones and auto-feed for long cuts. I've not tried any tapping with the lathe yet, so not sure about that. I've drilled down to a 1/4" hole and, although it looks funny to have such a tiny drill sticking out of such a big tailstock, but it went fine. I like to listen to whats going on as much as feel it. I always get irritated working somewhere with the music cranked up because I get used to what a particular machine and operation is supposed to sound like and then judge whats going purely by sound.

If you do small stuff, though, a small lathe is a must! I like having my little smithy still available for those small parts that require alot of "feel", like threading 6-32 holes in brass.

Evan
07-02-2008, 10:46 PM
You amaze me Tom. Fasttrack indeed. What a way to get a real shop going. You will make one hell of a teacher.

Fasttrack
07-03-2008, 12:28 AM
You amaze me Tom. Fasttrack indeed. What a way to get a real shop going. You will make one hell of a teacher.


Thank you Evan. That means alot coming from you. I know we've butted heads on occassion, but your work is always extremely impressive.

I hope very much to be able to teach at a university, I can't imagine anything better than that, but I worry about whether or not I'll make it. I love the physics and the math, but the whole deal seems too good to be true. I'm waiting for a big slap in the face...

carlquib
07-03-2008, 01:47 AM
Fasttrack, you just need the right pickup and trailer. My little bitty F350 regularly pulls around my 26,000 pound backhoe, and didn't even grunt when it pulled my little 12,000 pound shaper home from Oregon. Plus it will get between 13 and 15 mpg pulling the trailer empty, none of my semis will do better than 7 mpg of course they still get almost 7 mpg pulling 120,000 pounds.

The farm thing is cool it gives me cover for my iron habit. Although I don't know if I have enough faith to farm in the mid-west were all the irrigation comes out of the sky.

-brian

Fasttrack
07-03-2008, 01:00 PM
LOL yep - some years it's pretty stressful!

I've got a K3500 that would've handled it, I think. Its an awful long way to take a '89 P/U. Plus its an automatic and auto tranny's get nice and toasty pulling like that. 2000 miles is nothing on a big rig, though. Also, like I said, we took a load out there so it paid for our fuel there and back. It didn't pay for my brother-in-law's time, but it did pay the fuel bill so you can't beat that.