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R W
07-03-2008, 07:39 PM
Have a Perkins P6 engine (head removed) with a badly contaminated water
jacket in the block, does anyone know of a chemical or solution that can be
used to help in the removal of this.
I intend to remove the expansion plugs and use a pressure washer for the
final attempt at cleaning.
Thank You.

A.K. Boomer
07-03-2008, 07:50 PM
Besides some extensive "pull the block" and bead blast it out -- the way I would go about it is mix up a batch of that stuff thats used to clean radiators and blocks, pour it in before you remove the freeze plugs and let it soak, then car wash it out with high pressure, you might have to repeat...

firbikrhd1
07-03-2008, 08:00 PM
This is just an off the cuff suggestion, not completely thought out, but what if you used the electrolytic method I've heard about here and in other places. If you were to remove and replace the freeze plugs with two that are the rubber expansion type, fill the block with the baking soda and water solution and use the bolts in the expansion plugs as the anode and cathode (I think that's the right term), hook up a small battery charger and let electrolysis do the work.

A second suggestion is to use "inhibited acid" available from A/C & refrigeration suppliers and used to clean the cooling systems on A/C water towers. I've used the stuff myself and it cleans rust and only rust leaving the metal so clean is will immediately rust just from moisture in the air. Inhibited acid isn't used straight but mixed with water according to the recommendations on the container. It can be pumped around until it gets "dead", removed and replace with fresh solution until all rust is removed.

topct
07-03-2008, 08:36 PM
Freeze plug?

lazlo
07-03-2008, 08:41 PM
Evap-O-Rust:

http://www.evaporust.com/

O'Reilly carries it, but it's a lot cheaper on Ebay.

Tinkerer
07-03-2008, 08:41 PM
Take a look at Evapro-Rust could be the ticket. I've used it and it works very well.

http://www.evaporust.com/

Oldbrock
07-03-2008, 08:54 PM
Topct it is actually a core plug where the water course through the head and block mold core is located and have to be machined and core plugs installed. In Canada we hope they pop out when the block freezes before the block cracks. So in the frozen North we call them frost plugs. Never happens of course, the block always cracks first. That's why we use antifreeze all year round.Peter

bob308
07-03-2008, 09:05 PM
they actualy plug the holes that are used to get the sand cores out after the block is cast.

topct
07-03-2008, 09:44 PM
Topct it is actually a core plug where the water course through the head and block mold core is located and have to be machined and core plugs installed. In Canada we hope they pop out when the block freezes before the block cracks. So in the frozen North we call them frost plugs. Never happens of course, the block always cracks first. That's why we use antifreeze all year round.Peter

And that is why they are not "freeze plugs". :D

firbikrhd1
07-03-2008, 11:16 PM
'scuze me y'all, I'm jus' wunna thoz dumb suthern boys. We always called 'em freeze plugs down my way, even if that aern't the proper name. I guess it's sort of a local thang....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeze_plug

A.K. Boomer
07-03-2008, 11:20 PM
I know why their there but I also call them freeze-plugs,
I actually got a "superwrench" award/trophy sitting here at home because of one,
The sweedish fella I used to work for (still a dear ole friend) was really cool and when someone who worked for him did something out of the ordinary yet positive he would get them a trophy and there would be a saying under it -- the saying under this one was just a card that had some french words that I didnt know what they meant -- I asked him and he said they meant "talent will out"

This particular trophy is a mechanical man/figure made of nuts and bolts and springs and he's turning a wrench,

Now for the relevance of the topic:p

When I was just 18 I moved out here and got a job working for this guy at his foreign car repair shop, I was doing my thing and he was working on an old toyota -- a corolla - corona or cresenda or something like that, anyhoo, he went to a salvage yard and got an engine to replace the one in the car because it shelled out a rod bearing and blew its guts ----- he totally got the salvage engine in and fired it up and it would not pump up oil pressure, he had checked the oil and it was fine, he planned on running it - warming up the old oil and then dumping it, but what he found after it wouldnt pump up was that there was a load of coolant in the bottom of the pan, UGGGHHH he said -- the engines junk -- all that work to put it in,, he stated that the block must be cracked, I immediately asked if there were any "freeze plugs" he stated nowhere to be seen, I went and looked at the engine and he was right -- nowhere external, I then see a side panel lifter cover (I think actually two of them side by side) I told him I thought they would be worth removing, he said NO very firmly and said they are a very picky salvage yard - if we screw up a gasket and its obvious they might not take it back as its shaky ground to begin with, plus he stated that all there is under there is lifters and pushrods (like i said -- early toyota) I seen how hard he worked putting the engine in, I could not just "let it go" (see fella's -- Iv always been a stubborn ass)
So I let him cool down and asked him if I could please remove it and I would take my time with a razor and not destroy anything --- NO!!
it was all bad timing as he was already pissed with what went down, Still -- I could not not think about it and it was driving me crazy, --- it was only two bolts, then I remember him going to the house (20 ft. away) to talk on the phone with the salvage people --- now was my chance, I grabbed a ratchet and a socket --- I popped the first cover off -- as I removed it something fell onto the cement under the car --- and then I see the vacancy hole where the plug was --- BINGO I got it, I had enough time to retrieve the plug and when Captian Crunch (he got that nickname for dropping a volvo trans on his pinkie) was walking back from the house to the shop I flipped him the plug (like a coke bottle top) He caught it, looked at it and there wasnt an expression --------- he immediately left the shop in a furry (burned rubber in somebodys saab) I thought I was in really big trouble, I not only disobeyed a direct order, i basically disobeyed three of them, then he shows up fifteen minutes later with my superwrench award, he's all smiles and gives me a big hug -- then thanks me for not listening to him! we press the old plug back in with some sealant ------ he changes the oil we get pressure and the car burns a little oil but other than that it goes down the road....
Moral of story; To each there own, but I call em a freeze plug:)

.RC.
07-03-2008, 11:57 PM
Freeze plug?

Welsh Plug

speedy
07-04-2008, 12:47 AM
Known as a frost and a welch plug down this way.
If it's my motor, it gets the brass version... and don't forget the bugger behind the flywheel.

addition: http://www.britishcarweek.org/welch_plug.html

A.K. Boomer
07-04-2008, 01:02 AM
I have a set for a 22RE sitting in of all places the built in spice cabinet that I never use in the kitchen --- I just went and checked what the plastic covered cardboard pack says and its none of what anybody says - but it has to do more with freezing than any other term other than "freeze plug" --- the pack is labeled "expansion plugs" I dont believe their talking in expansion as in the plug itself as it actually physically goes through a compression whilst pushing it into the block;)

speedy
07-04-2008, 01:29 AM
They would be the cursed shallow dished type?

A.K. Boomer
07-04-2008, 01:32 AM
No, they are the full bodied ones, they look like a cap with the ridges removed...

Now that you bring it up I remember what your talking about, their not very popular (thank god) but I have seen them and they do make you cringe, dont know how they even seal sometimes...

doctor demo
07-04-2008, 01:51 AM
RW, do I understand that you have the head off? Are you planing to remove the short block from the vechicle or clean it in place?
I like the electrolisis idea, maybe after flushing the bulk of the rust out first.
Whatever method you choose to clean ,there is an additive available for the cooling system to prevent future problems. I have some but will have to look for it to get the name as I can't remember it off the top of my head at the moment.
Steve

GKman
07-04-2008, 08:50 AM
My experience using electrolysis (which has been good) showed me that a lot of square inches of anode are required. Don't see how you could get that inside a water jacket.

Freeze plugs. Everybody knows that they are put there so if you forget to use antifreeze the ice will push them out and save the block.:p

Swarf&Sparks
07-04-2008, 08:59 AM
yup, core plugs, welsh plugs, wotever....
The electrolytic derust method tho, is a one-time, in a tank setup.

Just make sure that the sacrificial material (anode) is insulated from the block where it goes through the plug holes/water passages.

Anode/s are connected to the positive terminal, block to negative.
Use any kind of battery charger as power supply.
Washing soda is often recommended as an electrolyte, but wood ash will do. Just about anything will do, but don't use salt, it will gas off chlorine.

gnm109
07-04-2008, 12:58 PM
'scuze me y'all, I'm jus' wunna thoz dumb suthern boys. We always called 'em freeze plugs down my way, even if that aern't the proper name. I guess it's sort of a local thang....

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeze_plug

Well, the Canadian fella, Mr. Brockley1 calls them "Frost Plugs". On the other hand, he says he uses "Antifreeze" all year. Maybe he should switch to "Antifrost" mix and start calling them freeze plugs like everyone else does.

Regardless of Wikipedia or any other source, I have never, ever heard one called a "frost Plug". Not even once. Maybe it's a Canadian thing.

.

Swarf&Sparks
07-04-2008, 01:18 PM
I've always known em as core plugs.
Then again, I've never had a block freeze :D

kendall
07-04-2008, 01:42 PM
I've always called them eithr freeze plugs or core plugs, you say freeze plugs and everyone knows what you mean, say core or welch plug and few are aware of it.

My old mustang 289, would NOT keep the plug directly behind the motor mount on the drivers side, and being right at the mount there was no room for a regular off the shelf rubber expansion type. My first ever real machining project was to make a freeze plug that would stay in that thing without interfering with the motor mount. Looked so good and worked so well I thought about making some for the rest of the engine

Ken

Swarf&Sparks
07-04-2008, 01:47 PM
To ask a straight question, are not the plugs (by any name) less common since the advent of lost foam casting?
:confused:

FrankC
07-04-2008, 04:05 PM
Well, the Canadian fella, Mr. Brockley1 calls them "Frost Plugs". On the other hand, he says he uses "Antifreeze" all year. Maybe he should switch to "Antifrost" mix and start calling them freeze plugs like everyone else does.

Regardless of Wikipedia or any other source, I have never, ever heard one called a "frost Plug". Not even once. Maybe it's a Canadian thing.

Yup, Frost Plugs, Garage, Chesterfield, AntiFreeze (not Coolant) is required all year, ... all Canadian things 'eh

J. Randall
07-04-2008, 09:33 PM
Brockley, I left an old 58 GMC pickup with a 60 model 348 in it sit in the shade on the north side of a shop all one winter. It had antifreeze in it, but come spring all the plugs were laying on the ground underneath it and the block was dry. I put new plugs in it and drove it a couple more yrs, was still running good when I sold it. That is the only time I ever saw that happen.
James

pcarpenter
07-17-2008, 04:21 PM
If you go the electrolysis route, don't follow the first post verbatim...one side needs to be the engine block. If you just use two insulated freeze plugs and hook one terminal to each, you will be tranferring metal from one bolt to the other:D You want to transfer metal from the engine block to the sacrificial anode, pulling the rust off in the process.

Edit-- if it were me, I would replace all the plugs with the rubber type and have a bunch of anodes all over the place, all wired together. Water passages are circuitous enough that its going to be hard to get even transfer as is desired. Distributing the anodes will help somewhat.

Be prepared to flush out not only loosened rust, but some gray looking crap too...that's normal. I do think I would follow this process with some caustic, provided you can route it around without having it come in contact with light-metal parts (copper, aluminum etc...as in radiators).

Paul

smiller6912
07-17-2008, 06:22 PM
I have quite good results by "Pickling" ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickling_%28metal%29 ) steel and cast iron.
I (being quite the tight-a$$) use a 1-1 solution of water and plane old, cheep white vinegar.
I recently had to turn some parts from the customers very rusty and mill-scaly 3" HR bar stock. An overnight soak in my home brew "Pickling Liquor" proved quite successful.
Be forewarned, any of the above processes can leave the cleaned surfaces subject to flash rusting and should be treated with a good rust inhibitor as soon as possible.