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View Full Version : OT..A "Cashless Society???



torker
07-18-2008, 08:50 AM
Well I've heard rumours...that if you deposit large sums of cash in the bank that they want to investigate you.
i thought it was BS.
It's not.
I sent the ol' lady to town yesterday to plunk down $6500 on my CC so i could pay for my ironworker.
HOLY Smoke... they grilled her... made her fill out papers.
WTF!!!
I've been saving up money for a couple months for that.
Sold a lot of my personal toys... my partially restored 75 Camaro..a couple of my old motorcycles... my Lincoln plasma cutter... so I could finance a new machine.
You work hard... give up your toys... try to better yourself and the a$$holes treat you like a criminal.
I am officially pissed.
I could have walked in there and paid on that CC with another CC and nobody would have said a thing.
but Nooo... you don't want to pay with cash...
Jerks!
Russ

DR
07-18-2008, 09:10 AM
.............

I sent the ol' lady to town yesterday to plunk down $6500 on my CC so i could pay for my ironworker.
HOLY Smoke... they grilled her... made her fill out papers.
WTF!!!
...........................



Who grilled her?

What kind of papers?


I don't fully understand the situation. The $6500 was to pay off a previous CC balance? And it was cash? If so, it does sound a bit strange doesn't it? I bet if she had sent a check for $6500 it wouldn't have raised any eyebrows. But, here's somebody with a fairly high CC balance paying cash......of course they're suspicious.

loose nut
07-18-2008, 09:36 AM
It's BIG BROTHER look for druggies and terrorists trying to launder money by making largish deposits in many banks to make it legal money and screwing the little unimportant people like us while they do it. Ain't the future look'in bright!:( :( :(

torker
07-18-2008, 09:40 AM
The teller at the bank.. she even had to go get a supervisor.
No... i don't have a high CC balance.... I put the cash on the card to pay for the ironworker.... that way the CC never gets high.
That's how i buy a lot of stuff.... I pay cash as I go... always.
So what do you mean... "Of Course" they'd be suspicious?? Am i missing something here?
Guess I'm still in the dark ages. I bought my Rodeck racing motor... got a loan from the bank at the time...$16,000... took it out in cash cuz the guy wanted cash... a farmer from Manitoba...a truck/tractor puller.

Evan
07-18-2008, 09:59 AM
There are limits on the amount of cash that may be processed in and out of accounts beyond which additional information is required. These are prescribed by the federal government and are in place to prevent money laundering by drug dealers and other similar criminal activity. They have been in place for many years and IIRC are part of international agreements to regulate cash exchanges for the purpose of criminal activity including tax evasion. Similar limits apply in nearly all countries to the amount of cash that may be carried across a border.

Bob Ford
07-18-2008, 10:08 AM
All governments would like a cashless barter less society. NO TAX would go unpaid! Big brother would have much better control over itís subjects.

Bob

dp
07-18-2008, 10:10 AM
I had that problem when I bought my Harley. Wanted to write a check for it and pay it off. They couldn't accept it, couldn't accept cash, either. I had to go to the bank and have them issue a counter check for $18,000 and some change. It's a nutty attempt to keep honest people honest and repress a black market economy.

Timewarp
07-18-2008, 10:11 AM
Yes Torker, they think that you are a drug dealer! I had the same issue - wanted to put 12 grand on the credit card for a steel order. I had been paid for a boat - 16 grand in twenties! I asked the teller what the max deposit was without the red tape, then made multiple deposits. Can't remember all the details, this was 6 years ago.
Also at the time I had no bank account. I didn't have a lot of money and it seemed like the interest they were giving me was not paying for the monthly banking fees. I could not see the advantage to lending my money to the bank, in principle or in practice.
Pablo

Evan
07-18-2008, 10:31 AM
They couldn't accept it, couldn't accept cash, either.

There is a law in the US (if it hasn't been repealed) that if payment in cash (legal tender) is refused for a purchase then the payment is deemed to have been made anyway.

bob ward
07-18-2008, 10:32 AM
A few months ago when I went to make a $6000 cash deposit at the bank, the teller whispered to me "I shouldn't be telling you this, but split that into 2 deposits otherwise I have to charge you a cash handling fee".

A cash handling fee?!?!?! At the bank?!?!?!

FFS!

Evan
07-18-2008, 10:44 AM
Coinage Act of 1965
Section 31 U.S.C. 5103

Legal tender

"United States coins and currency (including Federal reserve notes and circulating notes of Federal reserve banks and national banks) are legal tender for all debts, public charges, taxes, and dues."

Dawai
07-18-2008, 11:00 AM
Same here.. my lil motorcycle parts business..

I went to the bank.. had about six thousand in pocket, was thinking gee I'll get beat to death by a local cop with my tattoos and my purple harley. They done thought that once before I was a drug dealer.. THE bozo's here thought so about me too.. Seems Russ defended me as hard as he did the GURL..

OKAY, retail sales, cash register in wallet, about 15% is profit of total gross intake.. so it looks like a lot more than it is. WIFEY? she thinks, he ain't broke, he has a thousand in his pocket.. but alas, I done spent the 15%.. kinda blonde economics.. I know I still got money in the bank cause I got checks left..
It's floating credit money, not profit. When will everyone start using plastic cards instead of cash, I have to ride to town to deposit cash. That costs me time and gas-money.

Less than 10k in cash? nobody asks me a thing at the bank.. more than.. tax papers..

pcarpenter
07-18-2008, 11:03 AM
My wife works at a local large credit union. I could tell you stories...not about specific people...she is very professional in that regard--but about people trying things.

People do come in trying to deposit a check and then turn around and spend it in some more discrete way like paying off a balance that is due to get them out of trouble...only to find that the check is bad or that the money came from some ill gotten gain. The bigger the sudden winfall, the more likely its bad. In a credit union, if poeple cost the other members enough money, they become former members. I don't know what banks have to do to get rid of the unscrupulous scumb.

In any case, large transactions that involve funds coming in and then going immediately back out in some form...even a payment on a credit card--end up immediately suspect, because of idiots. If they didn't challenge you (and all the others who are trying to bilk the bank so to speak), you would end up paying for it. You might not know about it except in higher fees, but you might consider it more palatable than being challenged to prove your transaction was legitimate and that you didn't just fence a bunch of stolen goods to pay off your credit card.

Paul

Dawai
07-18-2008, 11:07 AM
Ohh yeah..

printing your own "barter cash" has made people rich.. Freemen in Montana was the last "Lesson" on "not to do that"... not heard a word since about it or the freemen's court case.. The local people tried to cash the self printed barter-checks they had, they were no good at the bank.

It started in New York state where a guy with a assembly company hired people to work, paid them in script to spend in his retail store.. it didn't interrupt their food stamps or unemployment.. not illegal.. but not exactly legal either.. He went around teaching people how to barter.. I'd like enough money to retire too..

One pair, also involved in organized Tax evasion, they were found with a mattress laying on them burning when the entry team got into the building to arrest them. Shot in the head. Obvious suicides? one was the local sheriff other was the "extremist". New laws closed the loopholes that allowed them to "not pay taxes" in America.. It used to be voluntary.. not now. They just didn't advertise you didn't have to.

Anyways.. it used to be coal miners who got paid in script to spend at the company store.. my grampa was a coal miner..

retusaf99
07-18-2008, 11:36 AM
My wife owns a travel agency, and I do the books for her. We recently had a group of 90 or so instructors/students from the local college, going to China.

We got a check for in excess of $130,000 for their travel, which we deposit and I write a check for something slightly less to pay for the travel, etc., that we researched and provided. (A portion of the rest goes to new tools...;) )

We called Bank of America to explain the situation, cuz we're a small business, not Donald Trump. I think that helped. No glitches.

Still, adding five zeroes on a check is a bit unnerving....

Doug

lynnl
07-18-2008, 12:08 PM
Sounds like maybe Canada has something like our RICCO act here in the U.S.

The RICCO act (Racketeering Influenced Crime and Corrupt Organization ...or something like that), was passed to give law enforcement an upper hand in dealing with organized crime.
One of its provisions is severe restrictions on any cash transactions of $10K or more. Of course there's a lot more 'gotcha's than that, but that's the one specific that I can remember reading of.

Actually it's RICO not RICCO.
More here: http://www.ricoact.com/

DR
07-18-2008, 12:17 PM
.................................

I've been saving up money for a couple months for that.
Sold a lot of my personal toys... my partially restored 75 Camaro..a couple of my old motorcycles... my Lincoln plasma cutter... so I could finance a new machine.
.......................



Okay, aside from the usual criminal drug money laundering, Russ has given reasons for government's interest in large cash transactions.

He sold some of his "personal" toys. Assuming Canadian tax laws are somewhat similar to US laws, was there a gain on any of these transactions? How about the partially restored Camaro? Was it sold for more than he paid for it? Yes, well then that's taxable income. Does Canada have sales taxes? Were they paid on these sales?

Forget the big brother watching nonsense. There are laws regarding what is taxed and what isn't. A good deal of cash transactions involve evasion of taxes. That's why the suspicions of his large cash deposit. If you don't like the laws, vote in representatives who'll change them.

Scishopguy
07-18-2008, 12:31 PM
Down here in "Drug Smuggler land" you had best not be caught with much cash on your person. Some of the counties on the east coast of Florida were getting pretty bad about confiscating cash using the excuse that it was most probably profits from drug sales. The zero tolerance laws allow them to take your cash, your car, and your house if they can prove that any drug residue is present. Most of the proceeds of these seisures is given to local law enforcement for their efforts. Volousia county got their butts in a crack, though, when they started racially profiling folks and stopping them and taking their cash money. A lot of the poorer folks don't trust banks and keep all their cash on their person...not a sound idea either. The long and short of it was that the county got spanked and had to give back some of it and some high up muckie mucks got fired, but I'm sure it still goes on to some extent.

torker
07-18-2008, 12:34 PM
Ya.. the Camaro...lol! I lost about 2000 dollars on that one.. the dirt bikes... lost the usual depreciation. the plasma cutter...bought for $2400(for my old hobby shop)...sold for $800.. this was all my personal stuff. There is no law up here to pay tax on that...or everyone would have a business licence.
So what you are saying... when you have a garage sale.. you go to the government and complain cuz you need to pay them tax money for your garage sale.. i think not!
Geezuz.. it was only $6500.. I'd heard it was $10,0000 before they got excited.

pcarpenter
07-18-2008, 12:45 PM
From what my wife has indicated, the government notification issue here is $10k and I figured it was a tax thing...pretty good chance it could be income. On the other hand, the credit union where she works does train them to look at sudden large transactions with care in order to protect the credit union and its members. If you run a small business and carry in regular deposits, they know what to expect. If you do something out of the norm, they do have to cover their own butts and try to determine if it might be a scam. That makes it about making sure the other credit union members aren't going to get screwed and not about satisfying federal law.

Cash would tend to take some of the liklihood of a scam out of the loop, but if you say sold your neighbors car and quickly put the funds on your Visa, it could be a lot of hassle after that was figured out for them to reverse things and I suppose Visa could say "too bad, you should have done your homework before accepting the funds" My guess is that if you were regularly carrying in deposits of $6500 cash, no one would have batted an eye.

Paul

DR
07-18-2008, 01:11 PM
Ya.. the Camaro...lol! I lost about 2000 dollars on that one.. the dirt bikes... lost the usual depreciation. the plasma cutter...bought for $2400(for my old hobby shop)...sold for $800.. this was all my personal stuff. There is no law up here to pay tax on that...or everyone would have a business licence.
So what you are saying... when you have a garage sale.. you go to the government and complain cuz you need to pay them tax money for your garage sale.. i think not!
Geezuz.. it was only $6500.. I'd heard it was $10,0000 before they got excited.


You lost money on the sale of items.....then it would seem no income taxes would be due (at least in the states). What about sales taxes? Do you have such a thing? Did you collect it and give the amount to the government?

In the states the fact that these were personal items would have no bearing. Gains are taxable, and all sales are taxable unless the buyer has a tax exempt status.

Garage sales, yes, by law you "should" be paying taxes on gains and the applicable sales taxes "should" be collected. Do people do it? Not very often I suspect.

Don't get me wrong...I'm not try to justify anything that happened to you. You asked why these things happen. I'm trying to explain why. The "why" is that a good many large cash amounts represent some evasion of taxes.

torker
07-18-2008, 02:04 PM
DR.. I know what you are trying to say...but.. How would they ever enforce that? That would also mean they'd have to cruise ALL the newspaper classifieds etc.
Ludicrous....
BTW.. My wife prepares income taxes for people each spring. She took a new course last year.
This was put on by the government for new tax laws etc.
The govermment "instructor" made the comment that "even Garage Sales" should be taxed.
The wife then pointed out that the government would have to issue EVERY citizen a tax number and a business number..
The instructor had no answer to that.

AlleyCat
07-18-2008, 02:32 PM
I had two state sales tax audits in the past. One thing I learned about was called the "occasional sale". I had sold some stuff laying around the plant to make space for other new equipment. When the auditor saw the receipts (which I should have destroyed) he said "We aren't interested in that stuff since it would be classified as an "occasional sale" anyway.

Several years later I was helping my friend setup at a large outdoor flea market and here comes a guy from the state department of revenue with tax forms for people selling things. My friend gets kind of worried but I told him I would handle this for him. I told the state dipwad that everything being sold here was part of an "occasional sale" and no tax would be collected. He gave me some lip service and said it had to be reported anyway. I told him what I learned from Mr. XXXX at the field audit bureau that this was an "occasional sale" and no reports were required. Then I asked for his id and name. He said "Have a nice day gentlemen" as he walked away. I turned to my buddy and said "F' him". My friend said "Nothing like learning something new".

pcarpenter
07-18-2008, 02:36 PM
Alleycat-- Guess you showed him:D Now you are audit bait...which is good for the rest of us since you have the bullseye on your butt:rolleyes:

Paul

AlleyCat
07-18-2008, 03:04 PM
Not a target at all. That was more than ten years ago and I got rid of that sales tax license anyway. Nobody ever wants to stand up to these people but I always have if I know I'm right.

The reason I knew the head guy from the field audit bureau is because the guy doing one of my sales tax audits was a total idiot and I told him to leave and not come back. Then the top dog called me and said he would finish the audit himself which is what happened. He turned out to be reasonable and a pretty nice guy as well.

When the audit was complete he told me I was correct on everything that was disputed and that he would "educate" the original auditor pertaining to the items in dispute. Later I received a letter thanking me for my cooperation and appologizing for the problems caused by the first auditor. They also included a bill for a little over $500 due to errors on my part. This was because I didn't charge sales tax to a HVAC contractor.

In Missouri a contractor is considered the end user and always charged sales tax. Another lesson learned. It would have been ten times worse if I just went along to get along with the first guy.

Evan
07-18-2008, 03:12 PM
Ya.. the Camaro...lol! I lost about 2000 dollars on that one.. the dirt bikes... lost the usual depreciation. the plasma cutter...bought for $2400(for my old hobby shop)...sold for $800.. this was all my personal stuff. There is no law up here to pay tax on that.

Sales of personal items are taxable here Russ. In fact, even trade of labor is taxable on the deemed value. There isn't a lot of difference in principle between our tax laws and the US although many of the details are different. The biggest difference is that the US has a general policy of only taxing money once whereas we have to pay tax every time money changes hands. Worse yet, we have tax compounded on tax such as the GST which is applied to gasoline including the gas tax portion of the cost. In the US mortgage interest is a deductible expense as it will be taxed as somebody else's income. Here it isn't deductible so we pay tax on the money used to pay the mortgage and the mortgagor also pays tax on the interest we paid and he received as income.

lwalker
07-18-2008, 04:09 PM
IIRC the "paperwork required" limit was lowered from $10,000 to $6,000 after 9/11/01 because apparently terrorists are dealing primarily in cash.

In other words, somebody found a new excuse to screw with the American public.

torker
07-18-2008, 04:23 PM
Sales of personal items are taxable here Russ. In fact, even trade of labor is taxable on the deemed value. There isn't a lot of difference in principle between our tax laws and the US although many of the details are different. The biggest difference is that the US has a general policy of only taxing money once whereas we have to pay tax every time money changes hands. Worse yet, we have tax compounded on tax such as the GST which is applied to gasoline including the gas tax portion of the cost. In the US mortgage interest is a deductible expense as it will be taxed as somebody else's income. Here it isn't deductible so we pay tax on the money used to pay the mortgage and the mortgagor also pays tax on the interest we paid and he received as income.
Umm..yes.. Tax will be paid on the car... by the new owner. I already paid sales tax on it when I bought it.
Show me where you "have" to pay tax on the sale of your used car AS THE SELLER? And where?? Who do you pay the money to? Who enforces this?
Do you pay taxes on sales of personal items...LOL!??? I think not.
Hundreds and hundreds of people sell personal stuff in the newspapers everyday... why don't they pay tax?
There "is" a form you can get from the tax people...to pay taxes on some personal items... wonder how many they hand out every year?
Have we ever heard of the government enforcing this? I haven't.

mayfieldtm
07-18-2008, 05:45 PM
There are limits on the amount of cash that may be processed...

Used to always be $10,000 ,but, a few months back it was changed to whatever amount the bank chooses or if the bank is suspicious.
I think it's the harry ass ****s that a lousy $6000 should be a problem.

As far as I'm concerned the Credit Card banks are among the biggest Crooks around.

Tom M.

torker
07-18-2008, 05:53 PM
It's nothing for me to take in $4000 or $5000 in a day. I rebuild motorcycles and sleds then sell them. (I don't make much profit tho). Sell a couple $2500 machines in a day and you've got it. Many of these are paid for in cash.
I've never had a problem putting money like that in my business account... but to pay that on a personal CC... That's a no no???
What a crock! What the hell is our world coming to?
If it really is to do with the terrorists.. then shame on us. Sorry but I'm thinkin a bit of good ol' racial profiling is in order. When was the last time someone with the last name of Brewer stole an airplane and crashed it into Walmart in Cranbrook, BC?

mochinist
07-18-2008, 06:27 PM
Timothy Mcveigh was pretty white looking from what I remember

torker
07-18-2008, 06:40 PM
Timothy Mcveigh was pretty white looking from what I remember

I knew that was coming. Gawd I hope I'm not around when they finally get us all shoved into that sardine can.

retusaf99
07-18-2008, 06:53 PM
Timothy Mcveigh was pretty white looking from what I remember
I suspect he's now kinda brown from the permanent dirt nap he's on. May he rot in he**. :eek:

Doug

Chipslinger
07-18-2008, 07:05 PM
I was in K.C. a few years ago and hit some G-sales most had some sort of permit for a Garage / Yard sale, this cost them money I assume, and now the city has names and addresses of potential income tax evaders.


Just another way Big Brother has his thumb on you.

mochinist
07-18-2008, 07:07 PM
I knew that was coming. Gawd I hope I'm not around when they finally get us all shoved into that sardine can.Sorry Torker, but Im not a good ol redneck and I know whats it like to be racially profiled. :)

Greg Parent
07-18-2008, 07:13 PM
FINTRAC is Canada's financial big brother.

http://www.fintrac.gc.ca/intro-eng.asp

torker
07-18-2008, 08:25 PM
Sorry Torker, but Im not a good ol redneck and I know whats it like to be racially profiled. :)
Mo...I've seen your pic. What did you get "profiled" as a middle class white guy?
I feel your pain!
I've been there...
Trying to cross the US border... middle class white guy with a very expensive toy (blown alcohol mud rail).
US border guard.. "Hmmm.. well looky here...middle class white guy with expensive toy... HOLY $HIT.. he's GOTTA be a drug dealer"
Two hours up against a brick wall in over 100 degree heat (in the shade) while they rip apart my truck, my wifes purse/my wallet, and I'm beggin them not to slash open my $900 apiece mud paddles..(cuz they are too dumb to know how beadlocks work).. ya..it sukks!
Maybe we shouldn't open this can...(you know...how a dozen middle easterns spent $100 grand that's going to cost the US billions and Canada has to deal with the aftermath)
Russ

torker
07-18-2008, 08:43 PM
Guess you shouldn't judge a book by it's cover.. I have enough Algonquin Indian in me to pull a status card.
Comes in damm handy when useless, lying, thieving Indian employees accuse you of "racial profiling" :D

mochinist
07-18-2008, 09:12 PM
Mo...I've seen your pic. What did you get "profiled" as a middle class white guy?
I grew up on an Indian reservation that also had a lot of agriculture and with that came hispanic families. The elementary school I went to was a lot of fun even though I had a hispanic last name my Mom was white and so was my step dad, thats all the kids needed to see, I think there were maybe 5 other white kids in the school. I got into a lot of fights.


I'm a mutt, I have enough Cherokee in me that I was able to get me and my kids our tribal cards and the benefits that come with it, also have enough hispanic that I get all kinds of great junk mail and telemarketing calls in spanish. Some people think I look white, some think I look like a hoodlum, namely cops. I got arrested a few times in college for minor stuff like underage drinking, this was in a pretty white town and it ws funny how I always got treated like **** by the cops while my whiter looking friends got handcuffed in front, while I was having handcuffs overly tightened and being tossed into the back of a caop car like I murdered someone.

torker
07-18-2008, 09:43 PM
I grew up on an Indian reservation that also had a lot of agriculture and with that came hispanic families. The elementary school I went to was a lot of fun even though I had a hispanic last name my Mom was white and so was my step dad, thats all the kids needed to see, I think there were maybe 5 other white kids in the school. I got into a lot of fights.


I'm a mutt, I have enough Cherokee in me that I was able to get me and my kids our tribal cards and the benefits that come with it, also have enough hispanic that I get all kinds of great junk mail and telemarketing calls in spanish. Some people think I look white, some think I look like a hoodlum, namely cops. I got arrested a few times in college for minor stuff like underage drinking, this was in a pretty white town and it ws funny how I always got treated like **** by the cops while my whiter looking friends got handcuffed in front, while I was having handcuffs overly tightened and being tossed into the back of a caop car like I murdered someone.
Mo.. I knew you where my brother! LOL! Nikasatawa nunich mouwich!

oldtiffie
07-18-2008, 11:56 PM
This is how it is in OZ as regards cash transactions:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AUSTRAC

I expect that its similar in principle but perhaps varying in detail in other countries.

The Tax laws are something else.

As in all or most of these and many other issues, not knowing is no excuse.

dneufell
07-19-2008, 01:00 AM
Hi Guys!
Here in Gratfton/Caanan N.H. my bank branch had a small plaque saying
you had to fill out papers to deposit more than $7500.

DP.....yup....I had problems at the Harley shop too.

last......I put a deposit in (under $7500 and a few months later the sign was gone) and the teller asked me where i got the money......Dean

JRouche
07-19-2008, 01:13 AM
Whats funny, actually irritating, is the banks seem to frown on good o'l hard cash. Say if I was to walk in with 8000 in cash to deposit they look at it like it was sh*t paper and its ugly. But if I were to walk in and deposit an 8000 dollar check its no problem. Or if I had 8000 electronically transferred no big deal again..

Gimme a break!!!! Cash should be king.. Its a shame how the banks perceive a minor deposit like that. Eight thousand isnt really that much these days.

I had 22,000 EFT recently into my account. They didnt even bat an eye. Was in there and no questions asked. Now if I brought a stack of sweaty, smelly hundreds in the tune of eight grand its all of a sudden drug money or something LOL I gotta tell the kid behind the counter Im not into drugs, it was hit money silly lil girl LOL

Now, if there is a run on the banks as any good depression should have imagine all the startled looks folks will get when they start paying all their bills with cash that they removed. "Martha. dig two grand outta the mattress to pay the mortgage" "But no Bill, I dont wanna, it helps my back, that lump and that b*tch at the bank gives me a hard time"... LOL

Wait till the cash become so de-valuated that folks are trying to pay the bills with the gold they converted their cash into..

Yeah, they want you totally cashless so they can freeze your "apparent" money at their whim.. Jerks.... JR

bruto
07-19-2008, 01:25 AM
I was in K.C. a few years ago and hit some G-sales most had some sort of permit for a Garage / Yard sale, this cost them money I assume, and now the city has names and addresses of potential income tax evaders.


Just another way Big Brother has his thumb on you.

Much more likely a local zoning issue than taxes, since income tax is only on profit, and sale of used personal property is generally a profitless transaction and not reportable; and most if not all states exempt "casual sales" from sales tax provisions as well. The usual purpose of permits, aside, of course, from being a de facto tax on events, is to prevent people from running such sales as a business, which would make them subject to various regulations, as well as sales tax.

Evan
07-19-2008, 01:40 AM
This may or may not be true but even if it isn't it is. Apparently at one time in the past a question came up at the upper levels of the US government. It was asked "What would be the easiest and best way to keep track of our citizens and everything they do?" The problem was assigned to several agencies but it is said that the CIA had an answer immediately. They said "Get rid of cash". As people in the covert operations business they were very well aware that non-cash methods of payment always leave a trail.

Another not so obvious side effect of non-cash transactions is that you can be set up if so desired. Transactions can appear on the record that never really happened and wouldn't normally be trackable with cash, perhaps a payment to a hooker or a purchase of a weapon.

Along with no cash would of course be the institution of a single personal ID number with all agencies using the same main database. Tracking tax cheats would be trivial since all money you receive could be traced back to source and followed when it leaves your hand.

We aren't very far from this right now. The US and Canada eliminated large denomination bills ostensibly to make it more difficult to carry on criminal activities. However, it also makes it more difficult for the casual tax evader too since it makes more difficult to pay for high value items.

Doc Nickel
07-19-2008, 02:01 AM
The US in particular sure seems to be putting a lot of effort into redesigning the bills and reissuing fancy quarters and dollar coins, for someone trying to "eliminate" cash transactions.

Doc.

Evan
07-19-2008, 03:00 AM
The US in particular sure seems to be putting a lot of effort into redesigning the bills and reissuing fancy quarters and dollar coins, for someone trying to "eliminate" cash transactions.

That is for a reason unrelated to tax evasion and general tracking of exchanges. Over half of US currency in circulation circulates outside of the US where it is effectively out of US inspection and control as it isn't processed by US banks at some point. An unknown but large percentage of that currency is counterfeit. Changing the bills both makes it harder to counterfeit and effectively eliminates the US liability for the huge value of currency still circulating in the old style bills. In particular, the new bills are printed in a way that even makes them appear to be a poor counterfeit on casual inspection. This has the effect of devaluing the currency as a medium of illegal exchange in places where the use of the embedded security measures is either unknown or hard to apply.

If the new bill is easy to counterfeit in appearance only it tends to put the illegal street level money traders out of business in places like Afghanistan as they will soon be awash in such bills.

Also, it is the stated position of the treasury that the elimination of large denomination bills was to make it harder to carry out illegal cash transactions.

Doc Nickel
07-19-2008, 05:25 AM
Oh, I know why they changed the bills and why they stopped printing the $500 and $1000 bills (I once had a real $500 bill, by the way. I shoulda kept it.)

I'm just saying, those actions aren't quite consistent with the other "conspiracy theory" statements earlier in the thread- IE, Goverment wants to track all transactions by getting rid of the paper money, etc. Tangible tender isn't going anywhere.

Doc.

Evan
07-19-2008, 06:15 AM
I'm just saying, those actions aren't quite consistent with the other "conspiracy theory" statements earlier in the thread- IE, Goverment wants to track all transactions by getting rid of the paper money, etc. Tangible tender isn't going anywhere.


Specie currency such as coinage will be around forever as it serves a useful purpose and is of no particular consequence in illegal activities (including tax evasion). The statement "Goverment (sic) wants to track all transactions" is a given, not some sort of conspiracy fodder. Getting rid of paper money isn't necessary. RFID implanted in the money will serve just as well. When you combine this with RFID in drivers licenses and other ID it is entirely feasible to track nearly all transactions.

oldtiffie
07-19-2008, 06:54 AM
It suits the banks too as they get a "slice" of every electronic transaction. With cash they have to account for every note and coin and count them as well as returning unservicable currency to Treasury/Mint and getting and accounting for every new coin and note. We all know what a PITA it is if you are in a queue in a Bank if a business/shop person is depositing or withdrawing a large amount of cash - there are any number of other examples.

Security for and in the banks would be a lot less stringent if only very little or no cash was "on-hand".

Cash "on-hand" cannot really "earn" anything for the banks.

It is easier to reconcile electronic transactions.

"Cash-handlers" (Tellers/Clerks etc.) are a real expense to/for banks and this too affects their "bottom line".

I do a lot of electronic banking. I only withdraw the cash I need from the ATM for day-to-day shopping. Some large/tool etc. items I pay in cash and sometimes by Electronics Funds Transfer (EFT).

It is not all Government caused although the Government and Tax/Revenue/Customs/Social Service etc. Departments have a vested interest in "knowing" this stuff.

Dawai
07-19-2008, 08:16 AM
There's a gas station in Atlanta, no tellers, no clerks.
You swipe or you drive off. It was close by the airport.

Robberies occur about every day. To customers, not the station.


Using debit card to buy gas can bring a surprise

Some stations freeze large amount of customers' cash

McClatchy-Tribune June 22, 2008 CHARLOTTE, N.C. - Some drivers paying for gas with a debit card are experiencing a different kind of pain at the pump.

Gas stations concerned about collecting on automated debit-card transactions are freezing large amounts of money in consumers' checking accounts, causing financial headaches for some drivers who carry low balances.

When a consumer swipes a card at a gas pump, most gas stations freeze $1 as a confirmation that a valid checking account exists. That hold usually lasts for a few hours, but can stretch to a couple of days. The station later debits the actual amount of the gas purchased from the account.

But as gas prices soar to record heights and fill-ups reach into triple digits, some stations around the country are freezing much higher amounts, some bankers say. Some of the consumer complaints have centered on Shell and Exxon stations, which are usually independently owned, though the practice could include other local stations./><br /> The manager of the station did not immediately return a message. And several other managers reached at various gas stations said they didn't know what amounts were being held or how it was determined. Despite the big-time names, most gas stations that sell Shell, Exxon and other brand names are independently owned.<br /><br /> Hotels have been placing extra holds on debit and credit cards for years in case customers run up extra expenses before checking out, such as for telephone calls, mini-bar items or other services.<br /><br /> But it has been happening at stations because some fear banks won't cover increasingly large gas purchases if the money ends up not being in a consumer's checking account, said Red Gillen, an analyst with Celent, a Boston-based financial services research firm.<br /><br /> &quot;Because there's a time lag between pumping and paying, there's a lot of money at risk. You're going to see more and more gas stations doing this,&quot; he said.<br /><br /> The hold policies can cause financial headaches for consumers in several ways, said Nathan Tothrow, director of marketing for Charlotte Metro Credit Union:<br /><br /> A debit-card transaction might be rejected even though drivers have enough money in their accounts for the gas they want to purchase. &quot;They have enough money for the gas, but not for the hold,&quot; he said.<br /><br /> The holds can tie up cash that can't be used for at least a few hours. Unsuspecting consumers might have other transactions declined because the holds are in place.<br /><br /> And there's a danger that the holds can stay on for longer than a few hours, causing other transactions to cause an account to be overdrawn, triggering fees.<br /><br /> Tothrow said the credit union has received complaints about excessive holds. The bank investigated and found several gas stations were freezing $75 and $90. Most still froze only $1, he said.<br /><br /> &quot;For a lot of folks, a $90 unexpected hold can cause a problem,&quot; he said. &quot;I really don't like that they are doing it to our members.&quot;<br /><br /> The way to avoid holds is to use the debit card with a gas station attendant and enter your PIN number because there are no holds involved and the account is charged immediately for the exact amount. But many financial institutions still charge a fee for using PIN numbers rather than signatures. Most gas stations and merchants send in charges as one bundle at the end of the day, after most holds have fallen away, Tothrow said. But some stations have started sending in the charge for pumping gas quicker, even before the hold has worn off. That can put double financial pressure on a checking account, at least for a few hours.<br />

mbensema
07-19-2008, 01:37 PM
The govermment "instructor" made the comment that "even Garage Sales" should be taxed.
The wife then pointed out that the government would have to issue EVERY citizen a tax number and a business number..


not in the States, business numbers are only used for corporations or LLC type business, social security numbers are used for sole proprietorships so setting that up would be very simple. I don't think the government has much interest in tracking personal or garage sales from an income point since that would mean people could start claiming loses on their taxes, which would cost them big money since I would guess most of these sales are at a loss.

Sales taxes are a different matter, it would be very simple for the town to require some sort of permit to hold a garage sale, but unless they planned on putting in alot of effort in enforcement, there is no way for them to know how much was actually sold. Since most garage sales probably only net a couple hundred dollars, I don't see them going that route, paying for a permit would raise far more money for the town.

Evan
07-19-2008, 02:54 PM
Just think though if all payment were by electronic means. We already have the technology at the individual level, just most people don't yet know about it.

Here is a personal credit/debit card reader. It can be used to transfer money from one person to another any time and any where just like paying at a till. If you have the appropriate bank accounts this is all you need to accept card transactions no matter what or where it is for.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics4/cardswiper.jpg

Here is an even smaller one. Just press the button to accept the transaction.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics4/cardswipr2.jpg



These are not experimental or prototypes, they are in wide use in countries outside the US. Canada for instance leads the world in the used of electronic payment technology, especially debit cards. I haven't written a check in years and I usually pay via debit card.

All the government needs to do is monitor these transactions when the info is transferred to the bank and automatically apply the appropriate tax to the transaction.

I used to think we were safe from this sort of government activity because of the enormous data load it would create. I didn't bank on the incredible and continued increase in computer processing power to the degree which it has progressed so far. It makes it easily possible to track everyone. Your average top end home computer has enough processing power now to track a small city worth of people.

Oldbrock
07-19-2008, 04:07 PM
Russ. You live out of town, you ride motorcycles, you have your own business and have a hand in running a motel, you often have large amounts of cash. You could have a grow op somewhere in the bush could be their thinking. You are a little different from ma and pa suburbanite. Pee on em and hold your head up. Peter

wierdscience
07-19-2008, 04:32 PM
Well Russ you must remember that our two governments have one thing in common,both are run by money grubbing thieves at all levels.As a result those thieves believe that we are all thieves as well since they are.

Then we have the "Seagulls"(beauraucrats) the reason we call them Seagulls is because they are protected by the governmnet,eat s--- and do nothing.

Has anyone figured out just what the total costs of our micro-managing government bottom feeders is?Every few years the ones here get new offices,new desks,new cars,new computers all at taxpayer expense.

Our town recently spent $60,000 on a design firm to make proposals for new water/services invoice designs.WTF?Not actual forms,just possible designs.There isn't anything wrong with the ones we have,but some seagull wants a change,along with a new way to screw us out of some more money.

RICO law has nothing to do with criminal activity,it only deals with taxation or the lack there of.They really don't care about how many drugs are on the street,they only care about the money.

At the end of the day we could function very efficently if we went to a sales and tarriff tax based system,outlaw all other forms of tax,just tax money as it's spent.Only we can't do that because our semi-retarded chimp brained bearuacrats would be out of a job and lord knows no one else would hire them.

Evan
07-19-2008, 05:11 PM
RICO law has nothing to do with criminal activity,it only deals with taxation or the lack there of.

Tax evasion IS criminal activity. It's also how the government has managed to bust a lot of high level mob and gang members (including Al Capone IIRC). It's also closely tied to conspiracy offenses. It isn't a criminal act to to litter but it is a federal offense to plan it with a buddy and then litter.

wierdscience
07-19-2008, 05:40 PM
Tax evasion IS criminal activity. It's also how the government has managed to bust a lot of high level mob and gang members (including Al Capone IIRC). It's also closely tied to conspiracy offenses. It isn't a criminal act to to litter but it is a federal offense to plan it with a buddy and then litter.

Exactly my point,anyone convicted using RICO is convicted on tax evasion and not drug charges.Capone was never convicted on a single case of bribery,alcohol transport or sale or money laundering.Had he filed a tax return for each year and reported income from his businesses he probably would never have seen the inside of a cell.

Evan
07-19-2008, 10:32 PM
The important point is that the law was implemented as a way to prosecute those they otherwise couldn't nail down. As far as I am concerned though it puts the government in a moral conflict. I don't see any moral way for the government to justify the collection of income tax on illegal earnings. I have no problem with the entire amount being confiscated as the proceeds of crime subject to due process but taxing illegal earnings is a convenient fiction to enable prosecution of those otherwise out of reach.

I am always opposed to laws that are enacted for ulterior reasons than those espoused in the law itself. In Canada the law simply states that the possession of funds obtained as the proceeds of crime is a crime itself and the funds are subject to confiscation by the state.

kc5ezc
07-19-2008, 10:59 PM
Really interested in the full scope of what banks and credit unions are required to put up with? Google 'bank secrecy act'. You can't believe the kind of BS financial institutions and their people have to put up with.
Makes me sick. No cash; no cards; barter only and don't tell anyone what you bought or sold.
Life in 'The Land of the Free.'
John Burchett
in Byng OK

oldtiffie
07-20-2008, 02:21 AM
There is more "digital banking" than you think. All cheques (here) - checks?? USA? - are processed electronically. They are pretty well worthless until your check has been scanned and your account has been debited and first the bank and then the "payee"s account is credited.

I would guess that most here who are either on wages, hourly rates or salaries are paid electronically and not is cash. "Making up pay" (cash in envelopes etc.) is a real expensive and inconvenient process for most employers. Further, with electronic payment the payer has electronic proof that the amount was in fact debited from his account and credited to the payee's account.

Bank statements can be retrieved electronically and processed and down-loaded directly into a spread-sheet or accounting software by you or your Accountant or Tax Agent.

Its not that easy if you lose your check-book or butts.

The Revenue Offices have very powerful computerised systems that will "trigger" an event to be investigated if you have any transactions out of the ordinary based on either your own specific "profile" or a typical profile to "fit" you.

If you don't have a full "paper trail" when the inevitable Tax Audit arrives and gives you a "going over" you will have problems!!! The banks run similar "profiles" based on your history.

I draw out about $500 from an ATM each fortnight for day-to-day domestic expenses. If I have a large purchase I either get cash "over the counter" from my bank or pay by Electronic Funds Transfer with funds debited to my account and credited to the dealer/supplier over-night. Its as good as cash and suits most suppliers. Most of our regular accounts are paid by "Auto Deduct" (Utilities, Municipal Rates/Taxes, Car registration and insurances (House and Contents and car etc.). I pay my gas bottle rental and usage by BPay etc.

I only have one card - VISA - which is very handy as I can use it for "on-line" purchases which are "Credit" and they too are "Auto-deducted" monthly. I sometimes use "PayPal" as well.

It is all very smooth and seamless.

I am a great fan of electronic banking. The service is excellent and the cost is almost too cheap to believe.

I don't know what its like in other countries, but in OZ, anyone who is or is deemed to be "in business" has to have an Australian Business Number (ABN) as well as to be registered for Goods and Services Tax (GST - 10%). This includes everything and everyone from "Sole Trader", Partnerships, Small and Medium Enterprises, larger business and Corporations - the lot.

Here, legally, it is not money that is taxed but "benefit/s". That includes money in all forms as well as bartering. Bartering is usually not chased too hard - but it can be. If two people each do $1,000 worth of work on an exchange basis, the Tax Office sees it as a benefit of $1,000 each and taxable or more correctly reportable as tax is not payable until the "taxable income" exceeds a minimum figure.

"Garage sales" are not "chased" but "Flea Markets" and their stall-holders are sometimes.

Tax "minimisation" is legal but tax "avoidance" is not. Penalties under the Tax Acts are very severe - both in monetary and jail time terms.

In my case at least there is no case for "cash" other than for day-to-day use and for occasional "big" items that I choose not to pay by EFT. But, if I do pay by cash I make damn sure I get an electronic receipt.

I have had a "full on" Tax Office audit some years ago and I don't want to repeat it. I just want to sleep easy at night!!!

Annual Tax Office Returns/Reports are "self-audited" as it is faster and cheaper for the Tax Office - and the Tax Payer/Payee. Some "tried it on" to "chisel" the Tax Office on their self-audited returns and the Tax Office took them to the cleaners. Others have tried the "Black Economy" route (all "cash-in-hand" etc.) to avoid tax but eventually some-one "in the loop" (and vengefully spouses and jealous neighbours and work-mates etc.) who gets "busted" "squeals" and the whole "house of cards" comes tumbling down and the Tax Office has a real feast!!!.

"Electronic payment" helps keep me "in the clear" with the Tax Office.

It is also a very quick cost-effective (cheap!!) way to do business - commercial and private.

Evan
07-20-2008, 02:27 AM
You can't believe the kind of BS financial institutions and their people have to put up with.

Sure I can. My wife worked for several different banks in the past. You wouldn't believe some of the things that aren't looked after correctly.

I once was doing a service call at a bank here in town when at 4:30, bank closing time, an audit team swooped in and placed the bank on lock down. That means they lock all the doors and nobody goes in or out until they are finished. Ok, I think to myself, I work until 5:00. So I did. At 5:00 I approached the door and asked to be let out. The head bean counter came over and politely informed me that they wouldn't be finished until 7:00 or so. I politely asked him what name I should give the RCMP to charge for unlawful detention as I pulled out my cell phone. I explained I was no longer on my job and was only a private citizen on his way home. With only a small wisp of smoke from around his ears he decided that it was probably a good idea to unlock the door and allow me to leave.

On another occasion a computer customer of mine called me in a panic. He submitted his monthly Visa billings as usual to his bank (which shall remain nameless). The disk was returned with a note explaining that it contained a virus and could not be processed. The bank didn't even call him to alert him that his funds were not processed and he didn't find out until the disk came back in the mail, not even courier.

Naturally he was very upset. I did an on location service call within minutes and closed my store to do it. A thorough check of his computer revealed no virus. In fact, the only virus to be found was on the floppy disk returned by the bank. It was a particularly nasty one that had the potential to actually destroy the motherboard by erasing the BIOS flash rom on some machines.

I questioned the customer about the disk and he explained that he always used the same disk each month to submit his billings. That made it clear. The virus originated at the bank and not from the customer. His disk was infected the previous month when it was processed as usual. The disk was then returned to the customer including the new boot sector virus. Fortunately, the customer never made the mistake of trying to start his machine with the disk in the drive so his machine was not infected.

I tracked down the Head of IT for the bank which wasn't easy until I explained that the bank may have a multi million dollar liability problem and I could prove it. The bank had been sending out virus infected disks to X many customers for at least a month, maybe longer. As I explained this to the department head he grew very quiet as the implications sunk in. He took my name and number and promised he would get back to me. I agreed.

A week later he called and apologised on behalf of the bank for the difficulty caused for my customer and myself. I suggested he reimburse my customer for my fee. An employee (now former I presumed) had decided it was too much trouble to scan every disk for viri each time on the stand alone system provided for that purpose. He asked (begged isn't too strong) that I please not reveal this to anybody although he knew I was under no obligation to keep it a secret. I agreed. I had no reason not to, at that time.

I do find it an interesting feeling though to have information in my hands that can bring fear to the heart of the upper echelon.

As an aside unrelated to this I sometimes recount various details of my employment at Xerox or make comments related to the company. I never in my 23 years with them agreed to sign a non disclosure agreement of any sort and never did although they were presented to me to sign. I merely never returned them and they were promptly forgotten by whomever was tasked at the time with looking after it. This came as quite a shock to them when I quit. Too late. They tried to withhold my last paycheck until I signed a NDA so I called the Labor Relations Branch. They told me (with a detectable note of anticipation) that they would welcome an opportunity to peruse and examine the files at Xerox if I would just make an official complaint. I declined but related this to the HR Manager at X and my check was promptly delivered.

oldtiffie
07-20-2008, 02:56 AM
.......................................

On another occasion a computer customer of mine called me in a panic. He submitted his monthly Visa billings as usual to his bank (which shall remain nameless). The disk was returned with a note explaining that it contained a virus and could not be processed. The bank didn't even call him to alert him that his funds were not processed and he didn't find out until the disk came back in the mail, not even courier.

Naturally he was very upset. I did an on location service call within minutes and closed my store to do it. A thorough check of his computer revealed no virus. In fact, the only virus to be found was on the floppy disk returned by the bank. It was a particularly nasty one that had the potential to actually destroy the motherboard by erasing the BIOS flash rom on some machines.

I questioned the customer about the disk and he explained that he always used the same disk each month to submit his billings. That made it clear. The virus originated at the bank and not from the customer. His disk was infected the previous month when it was processed as usual. The disk was then returned to the customer including the new boot sector virus. Fortunately, the customer never made the mistake of trying to start his machine with the disk in the drive so his machine was not infected.
.................................................. .......



Well, that did raise my eye-brows Evan.

As long as I have been using electronic trading with suppliers/payee (I was always the customer/payer) the Trader used his "on-line" (to his bank) (my) bank-card reader, keyed in his key-code and the amount owing. I just had to decide between "check or savings" accounts and whether I wanted to pay by credit or direct debit (EFT) and then key in my PIN. The Traders bank then authorised the transaction as correct and I was presented with one copy of the printed receipt and the Trader got and retained the other/second copy.

I have asked all the Traders I deal with and they all tell me that the amount is credited to their account/s when I pay by EFT and perhaps a day or so later if I pay by "credit". All transactions are available on-line and "on-screen" for the Trader.

So far as I know no Trader has to or has had to send in a "floppy" or other re-writable media to the bank and then get it back from the bank by "snail mail". It may have been the case in the days on comptometrists when every entry was done manually - but that is a lot of years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comptometer

In the dim dark past - and occasionally even today - there are some that still use the "manual" system where a card is put in an enclosure and a roller or something is run across it and a physical signature (of the customer) is required. The Trader gives the customer a carbon copy, and keeps the "original" (to be sent to his bank) and another carbon copy for his records and tax-reporting requirements. Perhaps he transcribed all of these to a "floppy" (in the past) or a CD/DVD-RW (today).

Evan
07-20-2008, 05:07 AM
The event I described happened perhaps 6 or 7 years ago. It had nothing to do with online anything, just the submission of preauthorized account deductions for membership charges at a gymnasium. I doubt they still use the same procedure but that isn't the point. Even though the bank had a proper protocol to prevent problems it wasn't followed. The human element is always the weakest link in the chain. That is the point and it doesn't matter what the precise technology is, there will always be humans involved unless the computers develop true intelligence. Failures in machines are virtually always the fault of a human in one way or another. True random unforseeable and unpredictable failures for reasons unrelated to operation and/or design are exceedingly rare. It isn't often that people are hit by meteors and the same holds true for computers manufactured and programmed by people.

oldtiffie
07-20-2008, 07:15 AM
Thanks Evan.

My wife and I are members of the local Gym which is owned and run by the local municipality (Shire). It works very well, is better-run, equipped and staffed and far cheaper than any of the commercial Gyms for 50Kms around - and there is no selling of anything else nor are staff allowed to. If any member has a valid reason to cancel or suspend membership - it is done there and then. If membership is paid by "auto-deduct" the cancellation fee is one months membership. Easy and painless and advised to members on joining or renewing membership.

Not so in some commercial Gyms of which some are notorious for not canceling the auto-deduct facility and for charging heaps to cancel out. They also are constantly pushing for extra sales and income with staff on incentive and/or profit-sharing schemes. These Gyms seem to figure prominently in "scam" reports in the press and "Consumer" magazines.

Our (OZ) Corporate Regulator has some excellent pro-forma letters to address this sort of scam as regards auto-deduct etc. payments. I had one occasion to use it and mentioned that I'd got the advice from the Corporate Regulator here and from then on there was no problem at all.

We have "on-line" Tax Reporting for annual Tax Returns here. I haven't used it yet as it doesn't suit my circumstances. From what I've read and from what I've heard from some that use it, it is gob-smacking as to the details that the Tax Office can and does fill in as regards all income received including but not limited to: interest, Pensions, wages/salaries etc.; tax paid; tax liability etc. All that is required is to amend/revise it if and as necessary and then send it off. After that the Tax Office will send a reply - with a check if a refund is due or a bill if tax is due/payable - in two weeks flat!!

All financial dealings are referred to the Corporate, Financial and Bank Regulators, Tax Office and heaps of other Federal Government departments and agencies.

I'd guess that all countries are a lot more "electronic" and monitored/regulated than many people will know or suspect.

Other than the "glitch" above, I've never had a single problem nor have I lost a single cent in my rather long time in the "cashless society".

It is very efficient and very cheap and reliable. I have an electronic "paper trail" anywhere any time.

As previously said, I do all my dealings electronically other than day-to-day stuff and some tools - but I have receipts for them from an electronic financial system.

Those electronic records are much better than all the old paper receipts in the "shoe-box under the bed".

It sure does suit me.

Evan
07-20-2008, 08:23 AM
Having been involved with computers since the early 1960s I know better than to trust them. I use online banking but only to a limited degree. I do not use any service that allows for money to be moved out of my control which naturally includes electronic bill payment or any other sort of funds transfer. I move money around in my own accounts including buying and selling securities but that is always reflected by appropriate changes in the related acounts at that bank. I also always print out a capture of the confirmation web page to provide a real paper trail of my activities.

I have never seen a machine or system perform flawlessly. When dealing with machines the expectation should be of failure to perform at some time and to some degree. It makes no sense to expect otherwise. Machines are made by people and people are always fallible.

KiloBravo
07-20-2008, 09:21 AM
Why would the government need to track your money, when they can turn on your cell phone and listen to your conversations ?

http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-6140191.html

The FBI appears to have begun using a novel form of electronic surveillance in criminal investigations: remotely activating a mobile phone's microphone and using it to eavesdrop on nearby conversations.

The technique is called a "roving bug," and was approved by top U.S. Department of Justice officials for use against members of a New York organized crime family who were wary of conventional surveillance techniques such as tailing a suspect or wiretapping him.

the eavesdropping technique "functioned whether the phone was powered on or off." Some handsets can't be fully powered down without removing the battery;

Swarf&Sparks
07-20-2008, 09:29 AM
"paranoia"

a matched pair of noia,
several noiad pairs

money will not fill your belly

Dawai
07-20-2008, 09:47 AM
The FBI appears to have begun using a novel form of electronic surveillance in criminal investigations: remotely activating a mobile phone's microphone and using it to eavesdrop on nearby conversations.

Tain't nothing new.. I was a member of a club where the Phone in the hall could be accessed by dialing a phone number, it'd never ring, just turn on the speaker. Normally during gatherings. Once it was known this was happening the pay phone got gone.

This was just a card game visited by several wealthy people in Chattanooga by the way, before you think I was doing something really illegal. I was security for the women and brought the bottles of booze and poured drinks. (poker losers like to beat women)

With the cell phones gps nowadays, it'd give a wide range of information.

EVAN: lemme tell you from working with robotics for more than 20 years.. computers do make mistakes. Windows light, crapola.. they'd crash two or three times a night. Computers are machines, made by man. Robots are more complicated machines, programmed by man.

J Tiers
07-20-2008, 10:05 AM
Changing the bills both makes it harder to counterfeit and effectively eliminates the US liability for the huge value of currency still circulating in the old style bills.

The government policy has always been and still is, that ANY legitimate bill of ANY time period or issue MUST be acknowledged and credited as "real money".

Evan
07-20-2008, 10:07 AM
Why would the government need to track your money, when they can turn on your cell phone and listen to your conversations ?

A little research shows this to be an issue specific to only the Nextel and Motorola cell phone models that are based on the Motorola iDen walkie-talkie radio design. It a "feature" that is part of their "TrakIt" system and doesn't apply to cell phones in general.

http://trakit.ca/solutions/hardware/iden.aspx

Evan
07-20-2008, 10:10 AM
The government policy has always been and still is, that ANY legitimate bill of ANY time period or issue MUST be acknowledged and credited as "real money".


That isn't how it works with the black market money changers in other underdeveloped countries. They will only accept whatever they choose and what their customers feel is correct. By changing bill designs the US treasury threw a giant wrench in the black market money business.

gnm109
07-20-2008, 10:43 AM
I don't know the number but as I understand it, there is a federal rule that anyone who deposits $10,000 or more must be reported and a form filled out by the bank and sent to the "authorities". The idea, of course, is to discover if there is any money laundering going on.

(Edit I just read all of the posts and I guess that the number is down to $6,000 now post-9-11.)

I know some bank officers that have told me privately that anything more than $3,000 or $4,000 is immediately suspect.

So, whenever you hand over a large amount of cash, you probably should have some paperwork with you to show the source. We live in a society where these rules are ever-tightening.

The obvious point is that many people, usually the self-employed, are tempted to take payment in cash, put the money in a shoe box and then at some point attempt to put it into the bank, thereby avoiding the payment of taxes.

I sure wish I had some cash. I'd like to ry it sometime to see what happens. LOL.

In the case of the OP's $6,500, it would have helped had there been a nice collections of bills of sale for the items of personal property that were sold to raise the cash for the credit card payment.

gnm109
07-20-2008, 11:00 AM
"paranoia"

a matched pair of noia,
several noiad pairs

money will not fill your belly


I once had a Parakeets but one died and I replace it with a paralegals.

DR
07-20-2008, 12:11 PM
Paranoia....

Yep, with the current administration we have good reason to be paranoid. A lot of their shenanigans in the name of national security are now coming to light.

Hopefully some of the administration will see some prison time. Of course, if their convictions come before Bush is out of office he likely will pardon them as he did with Lewis "Scooter" Libby.


BTW, a bit of trivia......

Has there ever been another instance of this situation? When Lewis Libby"s conviction was announced, the NPR reporter breaking the news was Libby Lewis. What are the odds of that kind of play on names ever happening again?

Your Old Dog
07-20-2008, 01:18 PM
In the US, every deposite over $10,000gets reported by the bank to the feds. Supposedly it has to do with drug money. If they asked your wife questions, she likely gave them the same answers a money laundering dealer would !! "Yeh, I sold a car, motorcycle and airplane to raise the cash" I don't think anyone at the bank is entitled to see if you even own a airplane to sell ! :D

A famous Canuck Marshall McLuhan said we are heading for a plastic world and it could be a problem if plastic (credit/bank cards) become the norm instead of cash as, if some computer screws up and you can't correct the problem by proving otherwise, you become a non-person even though you exist in the flesh. Having cash to work with should always be preferred over paper and plastic.

mark61
07-20-2008, 06:37 PM
[QUOTE=Evan]
Another not so obvious side effect of non-cash transactions is that you can be set up if so desired. Transactions can appear on the record that never really happened <



I was in college when the banks started using ATM's. The bank branch at the college had an ATM that handed out $xx but recorded $XXX as with drawn. Their internal account had the decimal point moved over 1 place. It happened to so many people and the bank REFUSED to admit it the college eventually screwed a peice of plywood over the damn ATM machine. All the students involved lost hundreds of dollars at a time when $5 could mean the difference between washing clothes or smelling like a wino! I have never since then had any sympathy for banks or people who choose to work for them.

mark61

Dawai
07-20-2008, 07:18 PM
THE ATM at my bank, it is not owned by the bank. A private company owns it, and runs it. Bank of America. That's what they told me anyways.

Very interesting as some of my cash deposits took weeks to get in my account. I quit using it.

oldtiffie
07-20-2008, 11:56 PM
David.

I make a practice of depositing cash in person in my bank with a Teller (here) Clerk (US?) and it is counted and I get a printed receipt after electronic processing. It is on my on-line statement by early AM the following day - without fail.

I have never been challenged when depositing cash. I do have to wait for the time locks to operate if I am withdrawing large amounts of cash in large notes (say $3,000 plus in $100 notes) as that sort of cash is not kept in the Teller's ready-cash drawers.

I never turn my old Nokia 5110 mobile/cell phone on when I am at home. I don't even wear it at home. If in the car or out walking I take it but don't turn it on. I only turn it on when I want to make a call then turn it off. My mobile bill rarely exceeds $10/month - it is usually zero. My "house" phone bill is rarely more than $10/month either. I can get by very well without a mobile phone.

Yes the old 5110 is ancient - but all I want is to make and get phone calls - nothing more - and it works just fine.

I should make the point that in electronic banking/financial terms that "cash" or "money" is almost a non-event as all you will see on any report or statement is credits, debits and totals expressed in equivalent "money/cash" terms. It can be converted to "cash" - provided the financial institution/bank has the funds available (ie that it is "liquid" and can dispose of assets/equities to survive that "call"). I would be concerned if I were in the US or UK with funds in one of the financial institutions "under watch" though. That is not the case here in OZ as all of our Banks are very strictly regulated as regards liquidity.

Another problem with the "cashless society" is that a lot of people don't equate credit/debit with "real money/cash" as they neither see nor deal with notes or coin. Some may be wary of say spending a $100 note but are a lot less hesitant in spending smaller notes up to say a value of $100 on the same purchase.

Many here are finding out the hard way about the "down-side" of leverage and reducing values as well as credit getting harder to get (if it is available) and the increasingly stringent conditions and the real meaning of a less than perfect credit worthiness. They are not used to being refused credit either.

Many people have zero or less net equity. Many don't realise the difference between "having" something (ie still with debt against it) and owning it outright (nil debt or encumbrances). Many too do not realise that what they think something is "worth" may not be true. A buyer or the market will decide that "on the day".

Many have no effective "buffer" or "Plan B" in that they have little or no liquid funds in case "things go bad".

I still have vivid memories of my parents counting out what little income (cash) there was into piles (many small ones) for the week/fortnight's expenses - food, rent, clothing, heating, cooking, utilities ("coin in the slot"). It was rare that there was enough to "go around". But at least there were no loans (nobody like us could get one!!) and certainly no "credit" or "electronic banking". There was no shortage of debt-collectors and other with books and cash bags that were after payment. No pay - no service -easy as that. There were plenty of people evicted and turned out onto the street with their meagre belongings.

People did have sort of "credit" facility in some stores called "lay-by" where a deposit was paid and regular payments were made until paid when the goods were handed over free of debt. Many younger women got their "trousseau" (aka "hope chest") - sheets, linen, etc. ready for when they got married that way. It all seems to start to come undone when "hire-purchase" came in as the predecessor of "credit" etc. and all of the problems that flowed on from that.

The "consumer economy" was born.

We keep a minimum now of a years expenditure "in hand" "just in case".

Because our banking is so well regulated here, I have no problems at all with electronic banking and the "cashless society".

torker
07-21-2008, 01:28 AM
I guess I'm a bit different than a lot of people. It's been years since I've had a vehicle payment. I build all my "new" vehicles myself...from old ones.
I have very little debt... other than my mortgage.
I pay cash for whatever I buy. I try to stay "even"...that's about the best I can hope for.
I've made a lot of money remodelling/selling houses...That's been the best money I've ever made. I buy "almost" a complete homeshop cabinet shop and use the tools/machines to do the job then sell the stuff after the job. I've save thousands doing this.
I was raised by depression era parents as I'm sure others here where.
I still live by that "doomsday" philosiphy... it made a lot of people a lot of money over the years.
I see the young people of today.. mired in debt that they'll never get out of.
I know of one 30 year old guy...he's $150,000 in debt...two newer pickups...a quad and a $50,000 CC debt. He owns nothing...he's not alone today.
No Thanks!
I'll keep dealing in cash thanks!

gearedloco
07-21-2008, 02:45 AM
Having been involved with computers since the early 1960s [ ... ]

Hmmmm - Berkeley, early 60's, father a scientist at the "Rad Lab," IIRC. Ever play Space War on the DDP-24?

Not only was it fun, it turned out to be one heck of a diagnostic. As the machine started to age it became more and more cranky and fiddly to keep working. If Space War would run the "production code" would run. Turns out, Space War really beat on the "tender" parts of the machine harder than anything anybody could come up with in the way of a "real" diagnostic or the normal scanning code.

Thank God they never tried to use the '24 for accounting...

Evan
07-21-2008, 03:28 AM
I take it you meant PDP, not DDP? The first machine I programmed was a Bendix G-15. At the time the PDP-8 was the top of the line in personal computers. I never did play space war as none of the machines I used were equipped with a vector display.

kendall
07-21-2008, 10:04 AM
I'm with Torker on that. I Don't use credit. Everything I own was paid for at time of purchase, can't see paying extra for the privilege of buying something.

Guy I worked with did EVERYTHING with credit, lunch was put on his card, groceriesm gasoline, home furnishings etc, was chronically broke and always complaining about his bills. Dude made quite a bit more than I did but just couldn't see that the credit cards were killing him.

I get my vehicles cheap, fix as needed and have trucks/cars that look and drive as good as new for less than a third overall and they're MINE.

Great thing is that it leaves a lot more cash for TOYS, and I like having a lot of toys!

ken.

A.K. Boomer
07-21-2008, 10:23 AM
Ken, im with you and Torker on this one too, what Torker said about being raised by depression era parents "hits home" for me also, growing up it was a little different as sometimes you would wonder "why"
Then you get a little older and you have nothing but respect for your folks...

I dont own a CC, but my brother does and he does it up right, he puts everything he can on it, he also pays it off every single month, there is 0 interest charge --- and he gets to fly to all his vacation spots many times a year for free...

Dawai
07-21-2008, 10:36 AM
I'd like to have more barter deals, But enough cash deals to pay the bills.

With barter, you can trade for things on 10% of value sometimes.

gearedloco
07-22-2008, 02:13 AM
I take it you meant PDP, not DDP? The first machine I programmed was a Bendix G-15. At the time the PDP-8 was the top of the line in personal computers. I never did play space war as none of the machines I used were equipped with a vector display.

Nope - DDP-24, 24-bit, did both sign-magnitude and 2s-compliment math. Built by Computer Control Corp in Framingham, Mass. At the time, it was the "latest and greatest" in the mini-computer world. It arrived on site the day I started working there. I outlasted it by quite a few years.

It was the basis of a system built and used to measure spark-chamber film. The vectors were generated by some Lab-brewed hardware that could be driven by the DMA system. A large display (15" dia, IIRC) was driven by the same hardware that drove the CRT that scanned the film. System had a whole 8K-words of memory.

It had a mode where the plotted points could be generated and displayed without the vector hardware, but still driven by the dma.

Anyhow, one Sunday afternoon a car with plates from someplace like Georgia went ripping through the front gate without stopping. The Cop in the
gate-house got on the radio and 2 cop cars blocked it in as it was entering the B50 parking lot. The driver gets out and finds himself facing a couple of cops with pistols pointing at him. The conversation went sorta like, "Who are you, and where do you think you're going?"

"We's a gonna meet our cuzzin Jeffrow who works here on weekends an' he's a gonna show usn's how ta play space war on da DDP-24." It all went down hill from there.

Come Monday, there were quite a few unhappy people around, and "cuzzin Jeffrow" was chief among them. At that point, space war became an Official Diagnostic to be used only by maintenance and software folk while
preforming their official duties. Except on annual family day open house.

I guess, in order to make it somewhat relevant to the topic, I should mention that it had neither a credit card reader nor a coin slot. But, as I understand it, quite a bit of useful knowledge was gained as a result of it's use. Your tax dollars at work!

Evan
07-22-2008, 04:53 AM
I made up for what I missed back then by buying a Vectrex home game machine. I still have it (two of them in fact) and almost every single accessory that was ever made available including light pen, 3D glasses, spare controllers and just about every cartridge still in original boxes and with the original colored screen overlays, all in excellent condition. It also has Space War in real live vector graphics. :D

Apparently the 3D headset is worth some real money. Mine is still in perfect shape and in the original box.

Your Old Dog
07-24-2008, 08:19 AM
Apparently the 3D headset is worth some real money. Mine is still in perfect shape and in the original box.

Okay, I'll bite if no one else will. What are you using for a third ear? :D

Evan
07-24-2008, 09:41 AM
How about an Audiolumitron?

Don't laugh too hard, I have seen the 3D imager accessory sell for over $1000.00.