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gr8life
07-23-2008, 10:49 AM
I have a 9x20 lathe with a 5C set thru collet chuck. I have a new lathe 13x30 and am considering selling the smaller one. I keep seeing ER collets mentioned in articles and do not understand how they are held and what the advantages are. Any advice or help?
thanks

sidegrinder
07-23-2008, 11:01 AM
An advantage of the ER type collets is that they have a larger holding range. A set of ER-40 for example will provide continuous coverage up to 1" diameter. The drawback is they are typically held in some type of a chuck with solid draw bar, ie no through hole for longer stock. This can be worked around by constructing a spindle/backplate mounted holder. I guess they are mostly for tool holding rather than stock holding, but I do have one that I trade back on forth with on my lathe and mill. I like 'em;)

pcarpenter
07-23-2008, 11:08 AM
nine views and no replies...I think folks are afraid to touch this as its subject to lots of opinion.

5C seems to be prevalent in the US, so it means a lot of tooling uses a 5-C spindle making a set of collets a good investment. 5C, however, is a design with the collet split only at one end. As such it does not squeeze parallel on anything other than its nominal size so you really should not use them for anything but the size they are stamped for.

ER collets suffer from the restriction of bore size (at least in ER-32 which seem to be so common) since 5C are available up to 1-1/8". On the other hand they are split in both directions and are doulbe tapered such that tightening the collet nut will squeeze the collet parallel to its bore and there is more total movement available. Someone else will chime in with the amount of variability in size each collet has, but suffice it to say that they are capable of holding work (or tools) a bit on either side of their nominal size.

I am keeping my eye out for a bargain on ER-32's and also own a set of 5C's by 32nds since they both have advantages.
Paul

NickH
07-23-2008, 11:16 AM
I have a collet chuck for my Myford Super 7 which fits on the same way as the chucks & so gives a full size through hole for stock, I'm sure this arrangement would be possible with most lathes, I use a collet chuck & drawbar on my milling machines,
Regards,
Nick

lazlo
07-23-2008, 12:09 PM
ER collets suffer from the restriction of bore size (at least in ER-32 which seem to be so common) since 5C are available up to 1-1/8". On the other hand they are split in both directions and are doulbe tapered such that tightening the collet nut will squeeze the collet parallel to its bore and there is more total movement available. Someone else will chime in with the amount of variability in size each collet has, but suffice it to say that they are capable of holding work (or tools) a bit on either side of their nominal size.

I have and use both 5C and ER-40 chucks in my shop. Paul covered most of the key points, but to elaborate on one issue: ER collets have their minimum runout at the nominal size, and the runout spec increases the further the collet clamps away from the nominal size. For Americans, that ends up being a double-whammy, because ER collets are made to metric dimensions, so the "3/4" ER collet is actually a 19-20mm collet, with nominal runout at 19.5mm = .77".

That hasn't been an issue for me in my home shop, but a job shop might want to measure the runout difference.

The TG ("Tremendous Grip") double-angle collet system is essentially the Americanized version of the ER collet system (I don't know which came first), and the TG collets have their minimum runout at Imperial Dimensions. TG's seem to be less common than ER though, and since they're mostly made by Kennametal et al (i.e., no generics), they tend to be more expensive.

Bob Campbell just posted a neat TG150 collet chuck he made for his lathe here:

http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showpost.php?p=934357&postcount=56


I am keeping my eye out for a bargain on ER-32's and also own a set of 5C's by 32nds since they both have advantages.

Be careful with bargain ER collets -- a lot of folks have posted about high runout on their $99 ER collet sets. I've been patient enough to pick-off ETM and Rego Fix collets on Ebay, but I hear that Frank Mari's ER collets are very good, and much cheaper.

MickeyD
07-23-2008, 12:21 PM
I use Maritool (maritool.com) ER-20 collets in my cnc mill and have been very happy with the performance, delivery, and price. Frank is on my list as a good guy and a pleasure to do business with.

Now for lathe collets, I use 5C and 22J on my Colchester. I use a cheap set of enco collets for grabbing anything that is a little bit nasty and a good set of Royal ones for the nice work. I think that using the ER collets on a lathe is a European thing - not saying that it is bad, just different. There is more than one way to skin a cat, and in the end you still have chili.

John Stevenson
07-23-2008, 12:40 PM
I also own a set of 5C's by 32nds since they both have advantages.
Paul

I have a set of ER 32's that go from 1mm [ 0.040"] to 20mm [ 0.787" ] in one thou increments :)

.

lazlo
07-23-2008, 12:46 PM
I have a set of ER 32's that go from 1mm [ 0.040"] to 20mm [ 0.787" ] in one thou increments :)

That's odd -- my ER-32's go from 1mm to 20mm in 0.07874015748031496062992125984252" increments ;)

bob ward
07-23-2008, 03:01 PM
ER collets have their minimum runout at the nominal size, and the runout spec increases the further the collet clamps away from the nominal size. For Americans, that ends up being a double-whammy, because ER collets are made to metric dimensions, so the "3/4" ER collet is actually a 19-20mm collet, with nominal runout at 19.5mm = .77".


The imperial ER collet sets that Maritool sell are, according to their website, genuine imperial sizes and not restamped metric sizes. Usual disclaimers.

Arc Euro http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk sell a nifty 5C to ER32 adaptor (originally designed by a person well known to these pages) which allows you to use ER32 collets in the headstock with long stock same as a 5C collet.

But yes, both 5C and ER have their place.

Timo
07-23-2008, 03:27 PM
gr8life, I had a similar question and received some good information. You might want to check out this thread
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=29781

Tim

vinito
07-23-2008, 05:21 PM
Since it hasn't been mentioned yet:

One big difference between double-angle collets (ER) and drawbar type split collets which are split only on one end (5C) is that the ER type collets require enough length of stock into the collet to grip properly, while 5C type collets can grip on very short pieces since it's solid in the back end. This can be an issue in a lathe collet chuck since sometimes you may want to grip on a short piece to work on it (like say a small screw that's only 1/4" long or the like).

Sometimes you need to grip and odd-sized piece and sometimes you need to grip a short piece, so overall I guess you need to have both types for lathe chucks. It took me a few years to work it out, but finally I have one of each and I use both of them pretty often depending on what I'm working on.

You can make a short plug of the diemeter you need so an ER collet can grip it in the back while it grips a short piece in the front. That's kind of a hassle but it can be done in a pinch. In kind, you can turn a 5C soft "emergency" collet to any size you want within it's range, but that's kind of a hassle too for just a single part - not so bad for a production run.

quasi
07-23-2008, 05:28 PM
can you get ER collets in hex, square, rectangular, expansion, emergency, ...?

can you get a ER spindex? or other milling fixtures that are available in 5c?

John Stevenson
07-23-2008, 05:42 PM
can you get ER collets in hex, square, rectangular, expansion, emergency, ...?

Someone reckons you can get square but I have never seen one.
Again I have never seen the other types. I can't see how an expansion can work given the front closing nut.


Can you get a ER spindex? or other milling fixtures that are available in 5c?

Yes you can get a spindex in both ER and 5C but only from the UK, or you can get a 5C to er 32 adaptor for existing 5C setups, again only from the UK.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/catalogue/results.aspx?search=er32

This comparison between 5C and ER's often comes up and there is no magic bullet collet system.
It depends on many things like legacy tooling [ no point buying ER's if you have shed loads of 5C ]

Use of collets, [ again ER isn't any good if you are needed special shapes or internal]

Wheri ER does score is for the beginner just starting out as you need less of them for a full set with no gaps and it's probably the only work holding and tool holding system with it's size limits.

So one set of collets can equip a lathe and mill and the odd attachment like a spindex.

I like the ER system as it fills a need at low cost but having said that for the last month I have been using a series of expanding 5C's that have been turned up to do repetition jobs but that again that's not true home shop work.

.

gr8life
07-23-2008, 06:28 PM
Thanks for all the input, think I will stick with 5C. Should I find a deal on flebay for ER's I might give it a try. I like the 5C chuck, it allows you to work close in even with a ball turner.
thanks again for all the help

bhjones
07-23-2008, 09:48 PM
You could use a MT3 mount to hold your ER collets, and that would get in the way of using the spindle ID for stock, but the solid drawbar is not used to actually open/close the ER collet.

ER collets are pushed in by the cap from the front. The collet has a groove in it that part of the cap rides in so that when you unscrew the cap it retracts the collet freeing the stock/tool.

On a lathe you'd buy or make a collet holder that mounts to the spindle via the threaded nose or what ever method used by the lathe to secure a chuck. This of course leaves the spindle ID free to slide stock through.

On a milling machine is where you'll see the drawbar system used to retain the collet holder. In this situation it's mostly used to hold cutting tools.


An advantage of the ER type collets is that they have a larger holding range. A set of ER-40 for example will provide continuous coverage up to 1" diameter. The drawback is they are typically held in some type of a chuck with solid draw bar, ie no through hole for longer stock. This can be worked around by constructing a spindle/backplate mounted holder. I guess they are mostly for tool holding rather than stock holding, but I do have one that I trade back on forth with on my lathe and mill. I like 'em;)

oldtiffie
07-23-2008, 10:04 PM
An advantage of the ER type collets is that they have a larger holding range. A set of ER-40 for example will provide continuous coverage up to 1" diameter. The drawback is they are typically held in some type of a chuck with solid draw bar, ie no through hole for longer stock. This can be worked around by constructing a spindle/backplate mounted holder. I guess they are mostly for tool holding rather than stock holding, but I do have one that I trade back on forth with on my lathe and mill. I like 'em;)

Maybe - but not here. I have ER-32 on my lathe and have the full 20mm (~0.800") accessible - I also use it on my mill - both in a dedicated MT3/ER-32 adaptor (which does have a draw-bar and the same collets as in my lathe is used on my mill table - and tilting table, rotary table etc. - all with "straight through" 20mm. I have had no need to up-size to ER-40.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/AirSmith03.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/AirSmith06.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/HF45-4.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/AirSmith01-1.jpg

lazlo
07-23-2008, 10:51 PM
I have ER-32 on my lathe and have the full 20mm (~0.800") accessible - I also use it on my mill - both in a dedicated MT3/ER-32 adaptor (which does have a draw-bar

Sidegrinder is saying that the ER collet chucks are solid, and don't allow through-hole gripping, unlike the 5C system, which uses a hollow drawbar.

I have ER-40 chucks on my lathe headstock, tailstock, my mill, and my T&C grinder workhead, and none of them have a hollow drawbar. For long stock I use a 5C chuck.

lazlo
07-23-2008, 10:56 PM
The imperial ER collet sets that Maritool sell are, according to their website, genuine imperial sizes and not restamped metric sizes. Usual disclaimers.

I'm looking on Frank's web page, and I just see the normal Metric ER collet sets:

http://www.maritool.com/Collets-ER-SERIES-COLLETS-ER-SERIES-SETS/c21_56_22/p33/ER-40-COLLET-22-PIECE-SET/product_info.html

He does sell individual Imperial ER collets in 3/8", 1/2", which is really nice. Wish he had a 3/4" ER collet -- that's the 19-20mm ER collet I use the most.

Paul Alciatore
07-24-2008, 03:00 AM
Someone reckons you can get square but I have never seen one.
Again I have never seen the other types. I can't see how an expansion can work given the front closing nut.
.....
.

John, This should work for an expanding ER:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v55/EPAIII/ERExpandingCollet.jpg

This is just a concept drawing so it is not to scale. A two-part collet is shown with the nut. The nut is the two blocks with darker shading. The inner part of the collet (diagonal shading) is solid (not slotted) and has a tapered front that sticks out of the nut. The section of this part under the nut is cylindrical. The rear of the inner part fits into the rear taper of the holder/closer. The outer part of the collet (not shaded) is slotted and has a tapered hole to fit over the taper of the inner piece. At the area under the nut it’s bore is also cylindrical and a close sliding fit to the inner part. This cylindrical area extends a bit forward of the beginning of the taper to allow for movement and expansion. The tight fit is important to maintain good run out.

Someone else commented about ER collets not allowing for long stock to be fed through. There is absolutely no reason why this needs to be so. I made an ER-11 collet holder/closer for my Unimat and simply bored a 9/64" hole completely through the back of the holder. This matches the 1/4"+ spindle bore of the Unimat and so it does not limit long stock being fed through it in the least. I believe the situation would be exactly the same for the larger series of ERs.

John Stevenson
07-24-2008, 03:34 AM
I'm looking on Frank's web page, and I just see the normal Metric ER collet sets:

http://www.maritool.com/Collets-ER-SERIES-COLLETS-ER-SERIES-SETS/c21_56_22/p33/ER-40-COLLET-22-PIECE-SET/product_info.html

He does sell individual Imperial ER collets in 3/8", 1/2", which is really nice. Wish he had a 3/4" ER collet -- that's the 19-20mm ER collet I use the most.

Buy a 19-18 collet and the 3/4" will be top size.

.

bob ward
07-24-2008, 05:40 AM
Maritool's larger ER32 imperial sizes are at http://www.maritool.com/Collets-ER-SERIES-COLLETS-ER32-INDIVIDUAL-SIZES/c21_56_59/index.html?page=2

oldtiffie
07-24-2008, 07:55 AM
I have ER-32 on my lathe and have the full 20mm (~0.800") accessible - I also use it on my mill - both in a dedicated MT3/ER-32 adaptor (which does have a draw-bar


Sidegrinder is saying that the ER collet chucks are solid, and don't allow through-hole gripping, unlike the 5C system, which uses a hollow drawbar.

I have ER-40 chucks on my lathe headstock, tailstock, my mill, and my T&C grinder workhead, and none of them have a hollow drawbar. For long stock I use a 5C chuck.

(My) ER-32 adaptor for my mill IS "solid" as it fits in my mill 3MT and is held in with a draw-bar. I can use that in the 4MT in my lathe spindle - but I don't.

These are the collets - with "straight through" capacity.
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/ER32-Collets

Here is the ER-32 collet chuck used in the mill and which requires a draw-bar and so has no "straight through" capacity.
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=C105

Here is my ER-32 (with 20+mm "straight through") adaptor (bought from "LittleMachineShop.com) on my lathe.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/AirSmith03.jpg

I deliberately machined the location bore (to suit the spindle flange) to have 0.03mm (0.0012") clearance so that I have a "tap true" facility to true up any job/collet to the accuracy/TIR that I require before I "fully tighten up". It is remarkable simple, quick and very accurate. I have the same facility on my 3-jaw chuck except that the clearance is 0.0.1mm (0.004") to allow for the pretty well standard 0.003" maximum run-out on a new 3-jaw chuck. I can "tap true" a 3-jaw chuck very accurately in a matter of just a couple of minutes).

This is the same adaptor on one of my rotary tables (rotabs) where I have the same "straight though" and "tap true" facilities. I can centre/align the job in the collets to the rotab centre in minutes as well.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/HF45-4.jpg

It can be readily mounted on my tilting tables/angle-plates as well. It works just as well on the magnetic chucks on my grinders.

I have this ER-32/5C (20mm) "Spindexer" that John Stevenson previously mentioned.
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/catalogue/product.aspx?prod_id=1ab9a38f-23a1-4d40-a4df-6e53fed07bb0

It too has "straight-through" capacity of 20+mm in both ER and C5 modes. It works a treat for grinding the ends and side/diameter cutting edges using the ER collet that I am going to use with that end-milling cutter in the mill. I just sit it on my "sine-bar" magnetic angle plate either directly onto my magnetic grinder chuck or just clamped to the T&G grinder table.

I am still "tossing up" as to whether to order the 5C/ER-32 adaptor (also designed by John Stevenson) from the UK.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/catalogue/product.aspx?prod_id=b01b4b54-5755-4cb3-8b34-e9dc6ca0180c

It will suit my "air quill" on my T&C grinder (which is made for C5 collets) as I can then use my ER-32 collets in place of the C5's. This draw-bar is hollow as well and so has the required "straight-through" facility.

I hope that this demonstates that ER collets and adaptors can and do have "straight through" capacity.

lazlo
07-24-2008, 08:37 AM
I hope that this demonstates that ER collets and adaptors can and do have "straight through" capacity.

Huh?! The ER collet chucks are solid -- Sidegrinder is saying that ER's can't hold stock past the inside dimensions of the chuck. Same deal with John's ER->5C adapter -- the chuck is solid, so stock can't extend past the inside of the chuck.

This is my ETM R8 ER-40 collet chuck*. The small hole in the back is for the solid R8 drawbar that John is so fond of ;)

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/ETMER40.jpg

5C collets, on the other hand, use a hollow drawbar that threads onto the back of the threaded 5C collet, so they can hold stock that's longer than the collet + chuck + drawbar.

*That little "crack" at the top of the collet chamber scared me for a second when I posted the picture, but it's just grease.

oldtiffie
07-24-2008, 09:11 AM
Is that so? Now where does it say so at:
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/catalogue/product.aspx?prod_id=b01b4b54-5755-4cb3-8b34-e9dc6ca0180c

As I read it it says:

5C to ER32 Collet Adaptor
This clever little adaptor will enable you to use ER32 collets in your existing 5C fixture (not required for Stevenson's 5C indexing head). Standard Internal & external 5C drawbar threads. (only works with drawbar locking fixtures)

That says nothing about it being solid.But I'd just about guess that as internal and external draw-bars are catered for that its hollow.

My guess is also that the adaptor is the same as a 5C collet.

I said:

These are the collets - with "straight through" capacity.
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/ER32-Collets

Here is the ER-32 collet chuck used in the mill and which requires a draw-bar and so has no "straight through" capacity.
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Pro...stockCode=C105

Here is my ER-32 (with 20+mm "straight through") adaptor (bought from "LittleMachineShop.com) on my lathe.

So I said my chuck was solid but my adaptor was hollow.

I also said that my "Stevensons Spindexer" (5C/ER-32) is "hollow" - which it is.

This is what sidegrinder said at post #2:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=370181&postcount=2


An advantage of the ER type collets is that they have a larger holding range. A set of ER-40 for example will provide continuous coverage up to 1" diameter. The drawback is they are typically held in some type of a chuck with solid draw bar, ie no through hole for longer stock. This can be worked around by constructing a spindle/backplate mounted holder. I guess they are mostly for tool holding rather than stock holding, but I do have one that I trade back on forth with on my lathe and mill. I like 'em;)

This is quite in agreement with what I said as I included and differentiated between the "solid" "chuck" and the "hollow" adaptor/s.

lazlo
07-24-2008, 09:15 AM
Tiff, you're jumping all over the place again.

Look at the back of my ER-40 collet chuck. It's solid, with a little hole in the back for a solid drawbar. That's how all ER collet chucks are made.
With an ER collet chuck you can't stick a 3 foot x 1" piece of stock through a 1" collet and out the back and through the hollow drawbar like you can with a 5C collet.

I know, because I have, and use both in my shop.


The drawback is they are typically held in some type of a chuck with solid draw bar, ie no through hole for longer stock. This can be worked around by constructing a spindle/backplate mounted holder. I guess they are mostly for tool holding rather than stock holding

That's very true.

John Stevenson
07-24-2008, 09:17 AM
Huh?! The ER collet chucks are solid -- Sidegrinder is saying that ER's can't hold stock past the inside dimensions of the chuck. Same deal with John's ER->5C adapter -- the chuck is solid, so stock can't extend past the inside of the chuck.



NOT ALL ER collet chucks are solid.
The face plate mount ones are thu hole, equal to at least the max size the collet can hold.
The spindex with 5C / ER capabilities has exactly the same thru hole as the 5C one.
Same for the 5C / ER adaptor, in fact this uses the exact same drawbar as the 5C.

.

lazlo
07-24-2008, 09:22 AM
The face plate mount ones are thu hole, equal to at least the max size the collet can hold.

Right, Sidegrinder made that distinction.


The spindex with 5C / ER capabilities has exactly the same thru hole as the 5C one.
Same for the 5C / ER adaptor, in fact this uses the exact same drawbar as the 5C.

For the Spindex, didn't you just take a standard 5C Spindex and a 5C emergency collet, and bore the 5C collet out for the ER clamping dimensions? So you would need to neck down the inside of the 5C emergency collet by the 16 closing angle of the ER system?

So isn't the through-hole in the resulting 5C emergency collet significantly smaller than the collet clamping size?

In any event, using a ER->5C adapter as an example how you can pass long stock in an ER collet chuck is a bit amusing, don't you think? :)

In any event, I use both ER and 5C in my shop, and whoever said that there's no Silver Bullet for collets is absolutely correct -- ER is really nice for the clamping range, and I love the ER speed chuck for the mill, but I find that the 5C chuck is more flexible on the lathe than an ER chuck, because I can use solid emergency collets, expanding collets, square and hex collets, and also stick long stock through it -- like most ER collet chucks, the MT3->ER collet chuck I used in my lathe headstock and tailstock doesn't have a through-hole.

John Stevenson
07-24-2008, 01:24 PM
For the Spindex, didn't you just take a standard 5C Spindex and a 5C emergency collet, and bore the 5C collet out for the ER clamping dimensions?
No.


So you would need to neck down the inside of the 5C emergency collet by the 16 closing angle of the ER system?

So isn't the through-hole in the resulting 5C emergency collet significantly smaller than the collet clamping size?
No.




In any event, using a ER->5C adapter as an example how you can pass long stock in an ER collet chuck is a bit amusing, don't you think? :)
Simple, unscrew the ER nose closing nut, insert the largest collet in which for the ER32 is 20mm. Refit the nut, feed in long length of 20mm bar from either end to suit, tighten closer nut.

Same applies for the spindexer which doesn't need a drawbar of any description.

.

lazlo
07-24-2008, 02:02 PM
For the Spindex, didn't you just take a standard 5C Spindex and a 5C emegency collet, and bore the 5C collet out for the ER clamping dimensions?

So you would need to neck down the inside of the 5C emergency collet by the 16 closing angle of the ER system?
No.


???

Best of Both Worlds
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=21535&


Picked the bits up today from our importer, 5C blank arbor with 50mm nose diameter and an ER32 nut.

Drilled and bored out to 8 degree to fit the collet, stub turned down to 40mm and threaded 1.5mm pitch to fit the nut.

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/stevenson.engineers/lsteve/files/5CER2.jpg

Peter N
07-24-2008, 02:33 PM
Robert, the 5C/ER spin indexer and the 5C/ER adaptor are different items.

The spin indexer has the outside of the (standard) nose threaded to take an ER nut, but it uses a short removable sleeve inside the bore which is 5C shaped on the outside of the sleeve, and ER32 shaped on the inside, and this has to be inserted and used with the nut. Take these out and the indexer is back to being 5C.

I've got one of the Stevenson indexers, and I was going to take a picture of the sleeve to show the idea a bit better, but errr... as I haven't taken the sleeve out of the bore for about 2 years it was well and truly stuck in there.:o , and a few light then heavier taps with a drift did nothing to move it...

Peter

lazlo
07-24-2008, 02:35 PM
Robert, the 5C/ER spin indexer and the 5C/ER adaptor are different items.

Ah, that makes a lot more sense!

Yes, a picture would be nice :)

Thanks Peter,

Robert

oldtiffie
07-24-2008, 07:35 PM
Thanks mark, I will "pick it and run with it" from here for you as I'd much rather take and post pics than all this bloody typing!!!

I will post some pics of John Stevensons ER-32/C5 "Spindexer" hopefully later in the day. I will show it both assembled and dis-assembled, hopefully all on a 20mm rod - like a skewer!!! but not to be BBQ-ed!!

I will show my lathe/mill ER-32 adaptor the same.

This will clear things up.

I can understand the confusion.

ulav8r
07-24-2008, 09:42 PM
There is no reason ER collets can't take work through the collet. If your collet chuck has a solid back end, modify it. You are a machinist, aren't you? :)

lazlo
07-24-2008, 09:47 PM
Look at the back of my R8->ER-40 collet chuck (in the picture I posted on the previous page). That's the hole for the drawbar.

The only way you can do through-hole clamping is either with a hollow drawbar (5C), or with a nose clamp (like the lathe backplates, or this mystery Spindex that John made for the Chinese that no American has ever seen ;) ).

The Morse Taper ER collet chucks can't pass stock either, unless you're going to bore straight through the morse taper :)

John Stevenson
07-25-2008, 04:50 AM
The only way you can do through-hole clamping is either with a hollow drawbar (5C), or with a nose clamp (like the lathe backplates, or this mystery Spindex that John made for the Chinese that no American has ever seen ;) ).

Tough :D Buy a ticket to China or pay shipping from ARC in the UK.


The Morse Taper ER collet chucks can't pass stock either, unless you're going to bore straight through the morse taper :)

Very true but there are usually alternative ways to hold adaptors / chucks. In a mill or lathe tailstock you are limited but these are being used in a tool holding application where the limited length is adequate for the chuck being used. Jacobs chucks on taper mounts and TG, DA's all suffer the same problem but have never raised flags before.

Where the query come in is on a lathe headstock and comparing to the 5C system. In fact using the ER is actually a bonus as it's both a work holding and tool holding system, something the others are not.

Many have used a Jacobs taper shanked chuck in the headstock spindle and accepted that there is no thru hole, perhaps some have used TG's or DA's in a headstock but it doesn't seem popular and again has the same blindhole drawback.

But fitting a backplate type ER chuck or even making one to fit the spindle nose gets away from this limitation. The same could be done for TG's or DA's but no one thinks it's worth it given the user base.

Over the years we have had numerous tapers and fittings , B&S, Jacobs, R8, 5C, ER, Jarno, INT, ISO, BT, Deckel and numerous others as manufacturers have tried to carve a niche.

The modern trend is to consolidate on these and push the most popular. Worldwide and remember America or the UK isn't the centre of the machinery universe any longer the ER system is gaining in popularity.

It's the main system in Europe and that covers a large area, and is gaining all over.
Go to a modern machine tool show,not a hobby one but where the latest machining centres are and look what is being used.
THIS is what drives the standards and production.

.

oldtiffie
07-25-2008, 05:56 AM
The only way you can do through-hole clamping is either with a hollow drawbar (5C), or with a nose clamp (like the lathe backplates, or this mystery Spindex that John made for the Chinese that no American has ever seen ).

Tough :D Buy a ticket to China or pay shipping from ARC in the UK.

.


Hm-m-m-m-m.

I have one of those "John Stevenson ER-32/5C Spindexers" that I saw on this forum, ordered and bought from ArcEurotrade over the net.

As I understand and recall it, John make the prototype and forwarded it to the Chinese who made it - and very well too!! - and exported it to Arc EuroTrade who are the sole world-wide distributors.

Arc EuroTrade were magnificent in their assistance to me in that instance and several times later. I can thoroughly recommend them.

I find it a bit of a stretch for lazlo to speak for all Americans as if they didn't see it because it couldn't have been seen here or in the US because he didn't see it. I daresay it will come as a (no??) surprise that laslo has seen fit to arbitrarily appoint himself as spokesman for all in the US.

I posted details of the web site for it here only this week. I have posted that link several times over many months and have had comment from the US and certainly no advice that anyone (else?) could not get the link to work.

I will try to have those pics taken and posted in the next day or so as it will clarify many issues.

lazlo
07-25-2008, 02:31 PM
Tough :D Buy a ticket to China or pay shipping from ARC in the UK.


I have one of those "John Stevenson ER-32/5C Spindexers" that I saw on this forum, ordered and bought from ArcEurotrade over the net.

I didn't realize that ARC Euro would ship to the 'States. Has anyone here done that? How expensive is it, especially since we (Americans) have to pay in pesos?


I find it a bit of a stretch for lazlo to speak for all Americans as if they didn't see it because it couldn't have been seen here or in the US because he didn't see it. I daresay it will come as a (no??) surprise that laslo has seen fit to arbitrarily appoint himself as spokesman for all in the US.

It wasn't arbitrary 'Tiff. Just as you were elected the official Wikipedia representative on the HSM Forum, I was elected as the US representative for those home-shop machinists interested in John's ER Spindexer. :p

lazlo
07-25-2008, 02:39 PM
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/catalogue/product.aspx?prod_id=b01b4b54-5755-4cb3-8b34-e9dc6ca0180c


You guys keep posting the link to John's 5C -> ER Collet:

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/imagecache/6fab6ad7-9d1c-4464-a76a-b3853f80edef_260x109v1.jpg

Where's the ER Spindex on Arc Euro?

It's not under "New Products", "Milling Machine Accessories" "Workholding" and "indexer", "spindex" etc all turn up blank.

There's a mention in the catalog page for the 5C collet "not required for Stevenson's 5C indexing head" so I'm sure it's there somewhere...

Peter N
07-25-2008, 02:45 PM
It's here, about 3/4 down the page:
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/5C-Fixtures

Having soaked mine in penetrating oil overnight, the ER sleeve is still well and truly stuck in the nose, so I'm going to have to make a mandrel to try and press it out from the back.
Probably a bit of corrosion holding it in there.

Peter

TexasTurnado
07-25-2008, 03:15 PM
It's here, about 3/4 down the page:
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/5C-Fixtures

Having soaked mine in penetrating oil overnight, the ER sleeve is still well and truly stuck in the nose, so I'm going to have to make a mandrel to try and press it out from the back.
Probably a bit of corrosion holding it in there.

Peter


Now they just need to make a slightly larger one so I can use my set of ER-40 collets:D

lazlo
07-25-2008, 04:10 PM
It's here, about 3/4 down the page:
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/Catalogue/Collets/5C-Fixtures

57.50 is a very fair price in the UK, but it's $114 in the US, and I'm guessing that shipping is going to be a b!tch...



Now they just need to make a slightly larger one so I can use my set of ER-40 collets

Yeah, I've standardized my shop on ER-40: that chuck I posted on the previous page is one of four -- I also have an NT-40 (for my T&C Grinder), and an MT-3 for my headtock and tailstock.

I also use ER-16's for tapping.

So what's another set of ER collets between friends ;)

John Stevenson
07-25-2008, 04:41 PM
You guys keep posting the link to John's 5C -> ER Collet:

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/imagecache/6fab6ad7-9d1c-4464-a76a-b3853f80edef_260x109v1.jpg

Where's the ER Spindex on Arc Euro?


Laxlo,
I put the link in post # 13

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/catalo...px?search=er32 (http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/catalogue/results.aspx?search=er32)

And here's a picture of the orginal on right and the Chinese one on left.

http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/er32_5C.jpg

Mine just has a plain adaptor sleeve, the Chinese thread theirs as per 5C so you can pull it in with a drawbar but as it has no slots it doesn't matter. the retaining and tightening are done via the front nut.

.

lazlo
07-25-2008, 07:19 PM
Thanks for that John -- neat! I'll order one just for posterity's sake :)

oldtiffie
07-26-2008, 08:12 AM
Now that it seems - at long long last - that there is stuff that works and is of excellent design and quality made outside the USA, I thought I'd post some comment and links to pics of some of the ER-32/C5 stuff that I have that has a 20+mm "pass-though" facility - as I said I would in recent posts.

First of all, the "Spindexer" was designed by John Stevenson, made in China and is distributed world-wide by/through ArcEuro (UK).

He is a very very clever fellow is our John.

So, on with it:

Here is my 3MT/ER-32 chuck (no "pass-through" but does have an 8mm - 5/16" hole through) that requires a draw-bar for use on my mills and lathe:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-2.jpg

Here (again!!!) is my ER-32 adaptor for use on my lathe and mills (it has a 20+mm "pass-through"):
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-3.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-4.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-5.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-6.jpg

Here is my John Stevenson-designed ER-32/C5 "Spindexer" (mine is on the left - note the ER-32/C5 sleeve/adaptor - which as John says, can be tightened by either the draw-bar - my preferred method - and the closing nut - which I leave on as a thread-preserver!!):
http://www.stevenson-engineers.co.uk/files/er32_5C.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-7.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-8.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-9.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-10.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-11.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-12.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-16.jpg

Here is my air-sleeve/spindle from my Tool & Cutter grinder. The air-sleeve has a C5 collet and draw-bar. I will order this C5/ER-32 adaptor from ArcEuro:
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/imagecache/6fab6ad7-9d1c-4464-a76a-b3853f80edef_260x109v1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-13.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-14.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ER-32_C5/ER32-C5-15.jpg

The "Spindexer" can move axially as required just by re-locating the limit-ring. It is as smooth and as accurate as I could wish for. It will work very well as a head for grinding both the ends and diameters of end-mills. I will just mount it on my tilting/"Sine-bar" magnetic chuck on my Tool & Cutter or Surface grinder/s. I have the specially-designed adaptors for my grinders but I can see many uses for the "Spindexer" too.

oldtiffie
07-20-2009, 05:57 AM
(My) ER-32 adaptor for my mill IS "solid" as it fits in my mill 3MT and is held in with a draw-bar. I can use that in the 4MT in my lathe spindle - but I don't.

These are the collets - with "straight through" capacity.
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/ER32-Collets

Here is the ER-32 collet chuck used in the mill and which requires a draw-bar and so has no "straight through" capacity.
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=C105

Here is my ER-32 (with 20+mm "straight through") adaptor (bought from "LittleMachineShop.com) on my lathe.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Lathe_misc/AirSmith03.jpg

I deliberately machined the location bore (to suit the spindle flange) to have 0.03mm (0.0012") clearance so that I have a "tap true" facility to true up any job/collet to the accuracy/TIR that I require before I "fully tighten up". It is remarkable simple, quick and very accurate. I have the same facility on my 3-jaw chuck except that the clearance is 0.0.1mm (0.004") to allow for the pretty well standard 0.003" maximum run-out on a new 3-jaw chuck. I can "tap true" a 3-jaw chuck very accurately in a matter of just a couple of minutes).

This is the same adaptor on one of my rotary tables (rotabs) where I have the same "straight though" and "tap true" facilities. I can centre/align the job in the collets to the rotab centre in minutes as well.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/HF-45%20Mill%20misc/HF45-4-1.jpg
It can be readily mounted on my tilting tables/angle-plates as well. It works just as well on the magnetic chucks on my grinders.

I have this ER-32/5C (20mm) "Spindexer" that John Stevenson previously mentioned.
http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/catalogue/product.aspx?prod_id=1ab9a38f-23a1-4d40-a4df-6e53fed07bb0

It too has "straight-through" capacity of 20+mm in both ER and C5 modes. It works a treat for grinding the ends and side/diameter cutting edges using the ER collet that I am going to use with that end-milling cutter in the mill. I just sit it on my "sine-bar" magnetic angle plate either directly onto my magnetic grinder chuck or just clamped to the T&G grinder table.

I am still "tossing up" as to whether to order the 5C/ER-32 adaptor (also designed by John Stevenson) from the UK.

http://www.arceurotrade.co.uk/catalogue/product.aspx?prod_id=b01b4b54-5755-4cb3-8b34-e9dc6ca0180c

It will suit my "air quill" on my T&C grinder (which is made for C5 collets) as I can then use my ER-32 collets in place of the C5's. This draw-bar is hollow as well and so has the required "straight-through" facility.

I hope that this demonstates that ER collets and adaptors can and do have "straight through" capacity.
............

oldtiffie
07-20-2009, 06:39 AM
In response to a PM message from a member I amended a post in this thread to include some images that no longer showed up because I had been "house-keeping" in my PhotoBucket account.

The query was related to the current thread at:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showthread.php?t=35681

I inadvertently posted it as a post instead of just an amendment.