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.RC.
08-01-2008, 08:39 PM
Are there any manual lathes of any size made in western countries any more (US, UK, Aus etc etc)...It would seem to me that while CNC lathes are still made in first world countries manual lathes seem to be the mainstay of the Asian countries...

Alan in Oz
08-01-2008, 08:49 PM
I suppose Myford, that's if you can afford one. I did a quick tour of the Hercus facility in Adelaide about 10 years ago, at that time they mentioned they had around 6 (IIRC model C) bed castings remaining and this was the last of the line. The fellow mentioned at around $10k they simply could not compete with the imports at that time.

rotate
08-01-2008, 08:51 PM
I believe Hardinge manual lathes are still made in the USA.

Emco manual lathes are made in still made in Europe.

John Stevenson
08-01-2008, 08:53 PM
Plenty still being made in Eastern Europe, TOS etc.

.

toastydeath
08-01-2008, 08:55 PM
There are, but the ones I've seen start at $25k for a 16x60 sized machine. Real trick machines, rapids in all directions and constant surface speed cutting. I think Hardinge still makes the HLV for a ridiculous sum of money. High quality, production oriented machine tools are difficult to produce, and brand new manual machines just don't have much of an economic draw.

You don't see manual machines being made by a great variety of western countries because there's very little money in making a top quality toolroom style manual machine.

quasi
08-01-2008, 09:11 PM
Standard Modern lathes claim to be made in Canada.

smiller6912
08-01-2008, 09:11 PM
You could check with a company that still makes TVs or stereos in the US.......
.......... oh yea, none of them left either

beckley23
08-01-2008, 09:15 PM
Monarch 10 EE.
Harry

Evan
08-02-2008, 02:32 AM
Standard Modern lathes claim to be made in Canada.


They are. This came up a while back so I phoned them and asked where their machines are made. The lady on the phone laughed and then invited me to stop in at the factory to see them being built.

quasi
08-02-2008, 01:16 PM
interesting, my local Pirate, I mean machine tool dealer thinks they are made in Asia. Perhaps they have their castings made there?

I used an 11" x 24" Standard Modern for a while, a friend bought one from a local fellow who had bought twenty some of them from a local school. It was actually a very nice lathe, telescoping taper attachment, 5c capable spindle. I think the 11" was discontinued a while back.

lazlo
08-02-2008, 01:39 PM
Monarch 10 EE.

According to Don's history of the 10EE on PM, the last new 10EE made was the one sold to United Airlines in 2002 for $80,000 (!) Monarch sells factory refurbs for $55,000, but I don't think that really applies to the OP's question.

Same deal with Hardinge: according to posts on PM, they haven't made an HLV in the last several years. They're also in deep financial trouble -- the CEO just resigned, and their stock is at historic lows, which Hardinge claims is because of unfavorable exchange rates on imported components. :rolleyes:

lazlo
08-02-2008, 01:49 PM
The lady on the phone laughed and then invited me to stop in at the factory to see them being built.

Assembled or built? I've heard in several places that Standard Moderns are made in Asia -- I don't see how any Western company can afford to make manual machine tools domestically.

I can easily see the secretary looking at lathes being assembled on the factory floor from imported components and assuming that they're being made there.

Myford's a boutique UK thing -- I called Blue Ridge Machinery (the US distributor) in July '07, and the base Super7 was $13,500 for the short bed version (7 x 19"), and $14,000 for the "long-bed" version (7 x 31") !!! The Dollar has dropped precipitously since then, and fuel costs have gone way up, so I'd imagine the 7 x 31 is pushing $20K in the 'States. You can buy a really nice Hardinge HLV-H for that price!

TOS went out of business several years ago, and the pieces were bought by Trens, which I think is now made in China. Maybe Don can comment.

In addition to Emco that's already been mentioned, Weiler and Schaublin still make manual lathes, but bring a big wallet :)

fasto
08-02-2008, 02:05 PM
ALthough these lathes are a bit smaller, they're made in Shrewsbury, MA, USA less than 4 miles from here.
http://www.derbyshirelathes.com/
Descended from one of the famous Waltham, MA lather manufacturers from the turn of the 20th century.

lazlo
08-02-2008, 02:08 PM
Hey, that's neat! I've never heard of those before!

I'm up in the Worcester area a lot -- do you know if they give factory tours?

beckley23
08-02-2008, 02:16 PM
Monarch ran an ad in one of the mags about a year or so ago, they put several new EE's on the U.S.S. George H.W. Bush. I imagine the cost was over 100, 000 ea. Their rebuilds are going for a little over 54,000, according to a very recent post on the Monarch forum at PM.
Harry

fasto
08-02-2008, 02:49 PM
I'm up in the Worcester area a lot -- do you know if they give factory tours?
I'm not sure - I've never asked. I even looked at space literally next door and I never even looked in their building. I believe that I did not know their company was located there.

Evan
08-02-2008, 02:57 PM
I can easily see the secretary looking at lathes being assembled on the factory floor from imported components and assuming that they're being made there.

She didn't sound like a secretary to me, perhaps the office manager. She also had the manner of somebody that has worked there a long time, not a young chick. Our conversation was a bit more detailed than that as I explained that these sort of rumors were common on boards like this. She assured me that they were indeed made in Canada as they always have been.

From their website:




STANDARD-MODERN LATHES Inc., is the exclusive
manufacturer of the well-known STANDARD-MODERN™ line of
Engine and CNC lathes.


Our manufacturing facility in Mississauga, Ontario combines modern CNC and conventional machine tools to produce accurate and consistent components for both our assembly area and spare parts business. Experienced machinists and electrical technologists ensure the quality of each lathe produced.


http://www.standard-modern.com/aboutus.html

Ries
08-03-2008, 04:40 PM
I am pretty sure there are no "NEW" 10EE's, but for around $50K, they will regrind and scrape a bed, and build one up just like new for you.
Hardinge HLVH's, from what I understand, are still being built, in Elymra NY, brand new, also in the $50K range, in batches of a dozen or so, as orders come in.

Aside from that, and the Standard Modern, there are also the Lehmann lathes, which are supposedly assembled in the US from imported castings- oil country lathes, probably also well north of $50k, built to order with long lead times.
http://www.lehmannlathe.com/

And thats about it for North America.

Hass makes a couple of "close to manual" CNC machines, with handles you can turn if you want to.

TOS was the umbrella company that sold all the different machine tools of the Czech republic- so they sold TRENS lathes as TOS, but you can still buy the same-ish machine direct from TRENS.
Lion, Summit and a few other companies from eastern europe are also making manual lathes in Poland, Bulgaria, and Romania- they are usually relatively large machines- 18" to 36" in swing, up to several meters in bed length, and seem to start at about $25,000 landed in the USA, with the larger ones ranging up towards $100k.

Realistically, with the chinese making $2000 lathes, nobody, world wide, can compete at the low end. Well, maybe the Indians- they do make manual lathes, but not many get exported.
Here is an interesting Indian company that makes Manual Shapers, Nail making machinery, and all kinds of mid 20th century manual machine tools-
http://www.atlasmachinesindia.com/map.htm

The Taiwanese (several companies),
the Koreans, (Nameson-
http://www.webbmachinery.com/Namseon/namseon_engine_lathes.htm )
the Brazilians (Romi
http://www.romiusa.com/
and Nardini),
and the aforementioned eastern europeans all make medium to large manual lathes like these, and worldwide, the prices to do so run pretty much the same- starting at just under 20 grand, and ranging up, quickly, from there. Good bearings, motors, and castings run similar prices most places- as in, not cheap.

I believe a couple of the really high end euro builders still make lathes as well- but if you think paying $15,000 for a new Taiwan 18x60 lathe (which is what a new Jet runs) is a lot of money, you dont wanna know what a precise, well built, swiss, austrian, german or french lathe would cost.
I am guessing a new Schaublin 102 is more than a new Toyota, although probably cheaper than some Lexuses.
http://www.daswiss.com/schaublinHighPrecisionLathes.htm

aboard_epsilon
08-03-2008, 05:31 PM
Not sure weather they are still "making" but certainly refurbishing

they may or may not be still turning out pultras ..

smart and brown ....now known as bracehand Ltd

http://www.barrystarling.co.uk/id3.html

All the best.markj

Timleech
08-03-2008, 05:57 PM
Dean, Smith & Grace do still just about mention manual machines in their literature, though whether they actually sell any new ones I wouldn't know.

http://www.deansmithandgrace.co.uk/index.php

Tim

bollie7
08-03-2008, 11:09 PM
Colchester, I believe, are still made in, well, Colchester. Not 100% certain of that though.
Colchester Triumph 2500 is around $42,000 here in Aus for a basic machine.

I went to a engineering expo in Sydney recently. Lots of Chinese machines, some quite rough in their finish but some looked quite good, and well finished. About $15,000 in Aus for a similar sized machine to the Colchester.
http://www.assetplant.com/images/catalogue/pdf/30.pdf
I have no idea what this machine is like apart from just looking at it. The Colchester is probably a better machine but is it $27K better?

bollie7

.RC.
08-04-2008, 12:21 AM
I guess it all depends on what your application is...It might be $27 000 better...

How much did say a plain South Bend cost in 1960 compared to a sedan of the day...I mean $42000 is not a lot of money in todays market...It is comparable to how much a new family sedan will cost you, and that car you buy you will throw away after six or seven years...I bet if you buyed a Triumph 2500 you would not expect to throw it away after only seven years..I think if someone added normal inflation into the equation we would find that good quality lathes have not appreciated very much in price compared to cars and groceries...Just that we have all these cheap ones now...


Lathes have got cheaper but so has the quality and design...Look at the tailstocks on these new lathes...Look at how small they are....Look at the size of the saddle or lack of size...Everything is made cheap with no class or artistic design..

Evan
08-04-2008, 02:01 AM
A new car in 1960 was around $2000 to $4000 depending on model. $2000 would buy you a Volkswagen Beetle in 1965. A SB9 workshop lathe was about $109 when it was first introduced in 1937 and probably around $300 or so in 1960. In 1960 you could buy a good sized chunk of land and a reasonable house for what a new lathe of Western manufacture costs now in dollar numbers.

Building a lathe is very labor intensive if you build it the "old fashioned" way to high standards of quality. It's a product where the labor component far exceeds the materials cost and it doesn't lend itself well to automated production because of the relatively small market. In the early 60's a really well paying job paid around $100 to $150 per week. That means a SB9 cost about a month's pay. Today an equivalent lathe would cost at least 2 months pay for the same job that paid $100 a week in 1960.

So, in earned income terms the cost of a new manual lathe has at least doubled and as much as quadrupled since then. The biggest issue now with the Chinese products is no longer quality but a noticeable lack of refinement. They are being built by hard goods manufacturers, not machine tool makers. As a result in many cases the design doesn't reflect the actual needs of a machinist but instead what an industrial designer thinks a machinist needs. And of course, the price reflects not only the lower cost of labor but also the much lighter construction of the tools, especially at the low end. A Chinese lathe in the range up to about 13 x 36 weighs about half of what a Standard Modern 13 x 34 weighs and the Standard Modern doesn't include any tooling at all in that weight

bollie7
08-04-2008, 05:32 AM
I guess it all depends on what your application is...It might be $27 000 better...

How much did say a plain South Bend cost in 1960 compared to a sedan of the day...I mean $42000 is not a lot of money in todays market...It is comparable to how much a new family sedan will cost you, and that car you buy you will throw away after six or seven years...I bet if you buyed a Triumph 2500 you would not expect to throw it away after only seven years..I think if someone added normal inflation into the equation we would find that good quality lathes have not appreciated very much in price compared to cars and groceries...Just that we have all these cheap ones now...


Lathes have got cheaper but so has the quality and design...Look at the tailstocks on these new lathes...Look at how small they are....Look at the size of the saddle or lack of size...Everything is made cheap with no class or artistic design..

Ringer, I agree absolutely and if I had the money a new Colchester would be on the menu, but at the moment it would be extremely difficult to explain that sort of outlay to the significant other person, on what is, for me, strictly a hobby toy. LOL. Doesn't hurt to dream though. Actually there has been a couple of Triumph 2000's come up recently for around $8500, which is a lot more affordable for me, so hopefully in the not too distant future, one might end up living in my shed.

regards
bollie7

oldtiffie
08-04-2008, 05:57 AM
It absolutely no use re-fighting old wars that have been waged and won/lost. Its too easy to lapse into a state of being "shell-shocked" or "punch drunk" - perhaps a gibbering wreck.

Its a business "out there".

We are in a globalised economy in which nobody is owed or can demand or expect a living - and there is no real signs of it getting any better anytime soon. The recent end to the Doha round of trade talks gave ample evidence of that.

In short, you may have to lower your sights, lift your cost expectations and either buy of go without what is on offer.

That something is not to your liking for whatever reason does not mean that it may not be quite OK for others - who will pay the "going/asking rate".

No matter how good the name of a company or its product is or might have been, as soon as there is a "sniff" of "financial" or "survival" problems they become a self-fulfilling prophesy and the crowds (will) desert them in droves - and on it goes.

Peter N
08-04-2008, 06:20 AM
Colchester, I believe, are still made in, well, Colchester. Not 100% certain of that though.

Not for many years I'm afraid, the old Hythe Works closed in 1992 and is now modern flats and houses, although the roads do have names such as "Capstan Place", "Mascot Square", & "Triumph Close".

I live about half an hour away from Colchester, and back in the 70's the company I worked for was a supplier to the Lathe company. These days Colchester Lathe is based in Heckmondwike in Yorkshire, but I have been told that much of the machinery is now made in China.

Peter

EDIT: Sorry, the main site is now a Tesco Supermarket, the old warehouse/storage site is the one with the streets named after lathes & parts.

lazlo
08-04-2008, 09:51 AM
These days Colchester Lathe is based in Heckmondwike in Yorkshire, but I have been told that much of the machinery is now made in China.

There was a long thread on PM that mentioned the same thing -- that Colchesters are now assembled in the UK with Chinese castings/assemblies. But at least they're the Colchester design (and mass).

JCHannum
08-04-2008, 10:31 AM
While I do not have the price of a South Bend 9" lathe in 1960, I do have the price of a 12" Atlas in 1967. Directly from the price list, $656 & $685 for 42" bed and 54" bed respectively. This was a bare benchtop lathe, rocker toolpost, faceplate, two centers and reducing sleeve for the spindle. No motor, steady or follow rest, etc.

The South Bend lathe was more expensive, but this can give a number to equate to today's numbers.

In 1966, bought my first home for $15,000. Mortgaged to the hilt with three kids, I could not afford to buy a new car or any sort of lathe. That same home was recently sold for close to $400,000, but not by me.

lazlo
08-04-2008, 03:04 PM
A SB9 workshop lathe was about $109 when it was first introduced in 1937 and probably around $300 or so in 1960.

From the Inflation Calculator (based on the historical consumer price indicies from USGPO):
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

What cost $109 in 1937 would cost $233 in 1960.
What cost $109 in 1937 would cost $1615 in 2007.

S_J_H
08-04-2008, 06:19 PM
Here is an ad from 1922 for my Artisan lathe. Note the price does not include a motor!
http://i109.photobucket.com/albums/n48/S_J_H/vintage%20Artisan%20lathe/ArtisanLathe1922.jpg


Now that lathe, is old, crude but in many ways also beautifully made with great attention to detail. Bronze gears, scraped ways, even scraped spindle bearings, cone clutch etc.

All you can get now in a small manual lathe are the ugly cookie cutter very boxy looking import lathes. But they sell like hotcakes since they are so cheap! And to be honest, the ground bed ways are pretty decent and they do work quite well for the homeshop guy.

Steve

lazlo
08-04-2008, 06:43 PM
Wow, the Artisan is $30 more than the SouthBend, and that's without a motor! :)

JCHannum
08-04-2008, 07:01 PM
1934 South Bend prices;

9" Workshop lathe $94- $135.00
9" Toolmaker lathe $158.00 - $188.00
9" Junior bench lathe $188.00 - $218.00
9" Standard Change Gear Bench Lathe $244.00 - $274.00
9" Quick change gear bench lathe $284.00 - $314.00

Prices depend on bed length and include 1/4HP motor & "regular lathe equipment" whatever that is. Price quoted for 1939 might be understated, although inflation was not as large a factor at that time. Source is Price list No.6, July 15. 1934.

"The workshop lathe operates from lamp socket for two cents per hour."

lazlo
08-04-2008, 09:31 PM
9" Quick change gear bench lathe $284.00 - $314.00

Ah, that's a lot more interesting Jim:

What cost $314 in 1934 would cost $4980 in 2007.

oldtiffie
08-05-2008, 07:45 AM
From the Inflation Calculator (based on the historical consumer price indicies from USGPO):
http://www.westegg.com/inflation/

What cost $109 in 1937 would cost $233 in 1960.
What cost $109 in 1937 would cost $1615 in 2007.

Be careful here.

The consumer price index is based on what is regarded as a statistically typical basket of goods in a domestic situation.

Lathes etc. will or should be assessed under a typical price index for a typical enterprise over the same component parts over the same period.

In the 30's and 40's - even into the 50's etc. most people were just about to enter, were in or were trying to overcome the effects and costs of a major depression and WW2 and the "War effort".

The "average Joe" just simply didn't have the room, money, time or well-priced broad-range selections that we seem to take for granted.

Lets be sure we are comparing apples with apples and not apples with oranges.

There might well be quite a limited "new" selection now in "western countries" even if you had the money to buy it.

With Eastern Europe now "in the game", I'd think that the definition of "Western Countries" might be a bit "rubbery".

Mcgyver
08-05-2008, 08:15 AM
Tiffie makes a good point, you only have to be off the cpi ever so slightly to make a huge different over that long a period of compounding. Relative increases in Western wealth since 1937 resulted from productivity gains and those gains have not happened equally over different segments - if we became much more efficient at making bread for example, then bread would look like its inflated a lot less than something we didn;t make the same gains at, I dunno, say maybe microscopes. Overall, it is a useful measure as the cost of microscopes and machine tools does show up in the CPI, but it is error prone to apply the a long term change in CPI directly to individual goods

Ries
08-05-2008, 09:47 AM
The other reason this straight inflation theory doesnt work is that the last recorded price for a Southbend, albeit a heavy 10, was NOT $3000- It is $19750!

http://www.southbendlathe.com/GS26LT.htm

I dont think that these lathes are still available- as the factory shut down, and everything was auctioned off earlier this year- but the website is still up, and it tells us that the humble South Bend was actually priced about similar to a japanese car.

This is one of the reasons there are effectively no more american made manual lathes.
When a simple South Bend is 20 grand, and the last known prices (from the late 80's) for a full sized (18" to 24" swing, 60" to 120" bed) LeBlonde or other old line american lathe was between $150,000 and $200,000- well, you can see why people are buying $40,000 Czech machines.
The $150k to $200k prices are what I have heard were charged the US Government for some of the last few lathes of that size made and sold in the USA. Not definite, proven figures, but enough different people who worked for govt shops have mentioned prices in that range that I believe em to be approximately correct.
I do know that at about the same time, late 80's, Chambersburg was quoting $125,000 for a 150lb self contained blacksmithing hammer, a chinese version of which today sells for $10,000. Similar price spread, similar incredibly high US manufacturing price.

JCHannum
08-05-2008, 11:01 AM
South Bend did not make the Heavy Ten in 1934, the closest comparable one was possibly the 11" X 60" underneath drive that gave 36" between centers priced at $492.00 with QC gearbox.

That works out to $7802 in 2007 dollars. While still not the $19750 of the last quoted price of the Heavy Ten, it also does not include any of the features of that lathe such as toolroom accuracy, hardened ways, taper attachment, steady and follow rests, four way toolpost, D1-4 spindle, metric transposing gears and so forth. Once those features have been added in, the gap will narrow quite substantially.

beckley23
08-05-2008, 10:02 PM
Take a look at the prices that Monarch quotes for new accesories/attachments in the attached link. I have a price sheet from 1984, and most if not all the accessories/attachments are 50% less, with a new Imperial 10 EE selling for 45,000+, and the I/M machine for 55,000+.
I think part of the explanation for the price increases, besides inflation, is that the manufacturers have lost the economies of scale for a variety of reasons.
http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=162610
BTW, new 10 EE's are available. I asked when I ordered a manual for a new addition to the shop yesterday.
Harry

JCHannum
08-05-2008, 10:20 PM
When I was involved in machinery MRO, many machines, or components had been in production for years. Every year, the bean counters adjusted the repair parts prices for inflation by adding ten percent. The result was that a fifty cent bolt ended up at an exhorbitant price.

Monarch has been making that steady rest for something approaching 60 years at this point, and the $2570 price is probably a result of those same economics.

lazlo
08-05-2008, 10:27 PM
I think part of the explanation for the price increases, besides inflation, is that the manufacturers have lost the economies of scale for a variety of reasons.

Good point. The Moore Special Tool Company came very close to going out of business in the early 90's for the same reason: they focused on a low volume, high precision, high margin market segment that literally vanished out from underneath them. If Producto hadn't bought them, they probably would have gone belly-up.

A similar thing is happening with a delayed reaction to the eastern European vendors like TOS: their labor was cheap at the end of the cold war, but now that they're being integrated into the EU, their wages are going up, and they're being forced to out-source a lot of stuff to Asia.

oldtiffie
08-05-2008, 10:32 PM
Perhaps they have have been "protected" from real competition for too long. Perhaps they were just "pigging" and "on the Government tit" for too long as well. It is surprising what "pressure" can be brought to bear for Government agencies to buy "local" at what ever price is "asked" - and it happens. It would be hard for a commercial operation to justify buying at those prices unless really needed and there was no equivalent in the market.

Also, as the OP was "New manual lathes in western countries", and given that "western countries" includes but is not limited to the USA, why are manual lathes from Europe and Eastern Europe not included - or more particularly why are they ignored or not discussed?

lazlo
08-05-2008, 10:57 PM
why are manual lathes from Europe and Eastern Europe not included - or more particularly why are they ignored or not discussed?

Western and Eastern European lathes have been mentioned several times in the thread Tiff: Myford, Emco, Weiler, and Schaublin are all mentioned on the first two pages, and then again several times later.

oldtiffie
08-05-2008, 11:11 PM
Only "in passing".

Current "European" (including East Europe) NEW prices compared to similar USA-made lathes would be both helpful and instructive.

To not do is not in accordance with the OP.

[Edit]
I took my own advice and I have to say that my search turned up a big zero regarding new lathes made in Europe.
[End edit]

Ries
08-06-2008, 11:10 AM
Tiffie, there are NO new USA made manual lathes, besides the Hardinge HLVH toolroom lathe.

(as mentioned earlier, you can have older american lathes rebuilt, and there is one company that uses imported castings to make, to order, extremely expensive large spindle bore oil country lathes, but they probably make 2 or 3 a year, max.)

Nobody in the USA makes a manual lathe that is comparable to the Lion, Summit, and Trens lathes made in Eastern Europe.

The closest is the Haas TL-1, which is a CNC lathe which has manual handwheels.
And curiously, the TL-1 is actually priced similarly to the manual lathes from eastern europe- although its easy to add lots of high priced options to any Haas product and double the price.
Haas, by the way, is the largest machine tool builder in the world, by number of machines built, and they are all made in Ventura Ca.
http://www.haascnc.com/details_LATHE.asp?ID=310

Here are links to currently available eastern euro lathes in the USA- all are larger than home shop sizes, and priced accordingly. All start at around $20,000 to $25,000 US, and quickly go up from there. The cheapest Trens I could find here, at the modern tool site, is $31,000.

http://www.lionlathes.com/

http://www.summitmt.com/engine-lathes.shtml

http://www.moderntool.com/lathes%20new.htm

In addition, there is the aforementioned Schaublin

http://www.smsa.ch/pl-102b-e.html

Weiler

http://weiler.eu/390.html

and Cazanueve, from France

http://www.cato.fr/us/cazeneuv.htm

And in Brazil we have Romi and Nardini

http://www.romi.com.br/mf_tornos_universais.0.html?&L=2

https://www.cartaobndes.gov.br/cartaobndes/PaginasCartao/Catalogo.asp?Acao=DF&CTRL=&Cod=35488


Current prices, especially in this era of oil, aluminum, steel, and copper prices changing daily, are only available by actually contacting manufacturers.

But aside from the Chinese, I dont think anyone, worldwide, makes a lathe in the 18" x 60" size for below $15,000 US, and most start at more like $25,000 to $30,000, and rapidly rise up towards $100k, as size and complexity increase.

In most cases, it is actually CHEAPER to buy an equivalent sized CNC lathe- there is less precision machining, casting, and hand work in a CNC lathe than a similar sized, high quality, manual lathe.

lazlo
08-06-2008, 04:04 PM
Tiffie, there are NO new USA made manual lathes, besides the Hardinge HLVH toolroom lathe.

When's the last time one was sold? The last one I've seen discussed on PM was at least 3 years ago.


Nobody in the USA makes a manual lathe that is comparable to the Lion, Summit, and Trens lathes made in Eastern Europe.

Are you sure that Trens, in particular, are made in Eastern Europe anymore? If you look at the latest Trens lathes, they look a lot like the Asian lathes...

Ries
08-06-2008, 04:14 PM
Its my understanding that Hardinge is making a batch of HLVH's about every six months, as they accumulate enough orders to make it worth it.
I guess the only way to find out for sure would be to call the factory, though.
http://hardinge.com/usr/pdf/turning/1332A_HLV.pdf

However, if you go to MSC, and click "check stock" on the $49,748 HLV, it says "in stock and ready to ship", which leads me to believe that they have a new one.
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMPXNO=7637670&PMT4NO=47347246

As for Trens- here is the factory website- and this lathe doesnt look chinese to me-

http://www.trens.sk/eng/sn32.htm

lazlo
08-06-2008, 04:39 PM
Peter is the moderator of the Monarch Forum on PracticalMachinist:

Hardinge Calls it Quits on the HLV-H (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=117597)

01-29-2006, peterh5322
Diamond

It is reliably reported that the final ten HLV-H toolroom lathes are being assembled on the erection floor at Elmira, and no more will be made.

This should come as no surprise as HLV-H clones, some of which have features quite advanced over the HLV-H itself, are selling for about $17K, and even Hardinge Brothers have been buying these lathes for its internal use.

HLV-H, RIP.

01-30-2006, W. Carter Marcy
Aluminum

I spoke to a fellow at Hardinge today, as I was ordering some parts for my HLV-H. I asked him about the production of these lathes. He said that yes, in fact, they are halting production as soon as the machines in progress are finished. He said the reason was lack of demand, but they intend to make them again if the demand increases. I think the chances of that happening are slim. He did say that the parts will be available as always, and they hope to continue the replacement parts indefinately.

.RC.
08-06-2008, 07:19 PM
In most cases, it is actually CHEAPER to buy an equivalent sized CNC lathe- there is less precision machining, casting, and hand work in a CNC lathe than a similar sized, high quality, manual lathe.

Well since CNC do not need headstock gears or quick change gearboxes or leadscrews/feedscrews and all the associated bits to compliment those parts it is not hard to believe that CNC would be cheaperto make, however CNC is as useless as tits on a boar pig for repair work in maintenance shops, plus has a very short life expectancy as control boards after five years become obsolete and made of unobtanium.. Plus CNC machines have no class they just look like a square block like some limp wristed californian would use.. :D

oldtiffie
08-06-2008, 08:07 PM
Tiffie, there are NO new USA made manual lathes, besides the Hardinge HLVH toolroom lathe.

(as mentioned earlier, you can have older american lathes rebuilt, and there is one company that uses imported castings to make, to order, extremely expensive large spindle bore oil country lathes, but they probably make 2 or 3 a year, max.)

Nobody in the USA makes a manual lathe that is comparable to the Lion, Summit, and Trens lathes made in Eastern Europe.

The closest is the Haas TL-1, which is a CNC lathe which has manual handwheels.
And curiously, the TL-1 is actually priced similarly to the manual lathes from eastern europe- although its easy to add lots of high priced options to any Haas product and double the price.
Haas, by the way, is the largest machine tool builder in the world, by number of machines built, and they are all made in Ventura Ca.
http://www.haascnc.com/details_LATHE.asp?ID=310

Here are links to currently available eastern euro lathes in the USA- all are larger than home shop sizes, and priced accordingly. All start at around $20,000 to $25,000 US, and quickly go up from there. The cheapest Trens I could find here, at the modern tool site, is $31,000.

http://www.lionlathes.com/

http://www.summitmt.com/engine-lathes.shtml

http://www.moderntool.com/lathes%20new.htm

In addition, there is the aforementioned Schaublin

http://www.smsa.ch/pl-102b-e.html

Weiler

http://weiler.eu/390.html

and Cazanueve, from France

http://www.cato.fr/us/cazeneuv.htm

And in Brazil we have Romi and Nardini

http://www.romi.com.br/mf_tornos_universais.0.html?&L=2

https://www.cartaobndes.gov.br/cartaobndes/PaginasCartao/Catalogo.asp?Acao=DF&CTRL=&Cod=35488


Current prices, especially in this era of oil, aluminum, steel, and copper prices changing daily, are only available by actually contacting manufacturers.

But aside from the Chinese, I dont think anyone, worldwide, makes a lathe in the 18" x 60" size for below $15,000 US, and most start at more like $25,000 to $30,000, and rapidly rise up towards $100k, as size and complexity increase.

In most cases, it is actually CHEAPER to buy an equivalent sized CNC lathe- there is less precision machining, casting, and hand work in a CNC lathe than a similar sized, high quality, manual lathe.

Thanks immensely Ries.

That has opened up the discussion no end.

"Schaublin" are my "dream machines" having used them (lathes and mills) in the Tool Room when I was an Apprentice. Some of the features in those machines were world-leaders - and looking back - still are.

I was rather expecting that few if any new lathes were being made in substantial numbers in the USA - and other "Western Countries" (as many would interpret that/those zones) . I would not include "occasional" or "limited" or "batch" runs in those figures.

I expect that TOS will get pricier as the full costs of complying with the EU regulation is realised though!!.

Taking all this as a "given" it seems that for new ("good/USA" quality or otherwise) lathes that it will be the EU/"TOS" for a while and then only China, Japan, Korea, Asia generally and India.

I suspect that there will be a dwindling supply of "USA-made" "quality"/used/second-hand/"pre-loved"/abused/junk available for a while yet which will make some of the stuff that had been restored by some home shops to be in very high demand and priced accordingly.

There may be a surge of good cheap machines as a result of the present "financial difficulties" for a while but when that source "dries up" and the economies pick up, the availability of good cheap machines may be a thing of the past.

But the topic was and is about "new" lathes in "Western countries.

mochinist
08-06-2008, 08:20 PM
however CNC is as useless as tits on a boar pig for repair work in maintenance shops I love it when people say sh1t like this, so full of it. CNC's are being used more and more in maintenance and repair shops, especially cnc lathes like the haas tl series.

oldtiffie
08-06-2008, 08:35 PM
Yes that raised my eye-brows too mochinist.

I doubt that I'd ever have need for a "full on" CNC "machining centre" but I sure can see me needing a CNC(-ed) lathe though. As I understand it, the CNC software allows pretty well "manual" control" without the physical "hands on".

I am taking a great interest in John Stevenson's current thread on his new "Seig" CNC-ed lathe for those very reasons.

Similarly, I have a brand new "Seig" X3 mill-drill in my shop just waiting for me to get in the CNC retro-fit (when my bl**dy supply/developer "gets his finger out" and "comes good" with it!!).

In my shop a good light machine is all that is needed to do all that I can for-see.

I have a 10 x 18 Chinese lathe (which is very good) as well as a HF-45 vertical mill-drill, both of which will remain "manual".

I fully expect that over time I will migrate to all-CNC with only occasional use of the "manual" machines.

I don't expect to ever want or have to (try) to buy a new "Western country" lathe or other machine.

.RC.
08-07-2008, 06:53 AM
I wonder what machine tools go into US naval ships then...It is my understanding that all US military gear must be made in the US (this is why our defence industries cannot sell Aussie made gear to the US military and instead can only build it in the US like the Austal catamarans)

oldtiffie
08-07-2008, 07:12 AM
Good question Ringer, it has universal application - including here in OZ well.

Government policy is quite often "slanted" toward "locally made only" with the inference that it is "supporting local industry" when in fact it is the result of "political leverage" (read: lobbyists, politicians "paying debts/seeking favours or re-election" etc. etc.). There is little if any need for the very limited preferred bidders to worry about competitive bids as the Government provides a continuing source of revenue. The same applies to "tied" "Foreign Aid" where the donor country directs that all materials (machine included) be sourced from the donor country manufacturers or distributors.

The real deal is in the supply of "spares and repairs".

And of course, "those in the know" get the best or only chance to buy what are essentially new machines in a year or so at scrap or "fire-sale" or "give-away" prices.

Defence industry and agriculture are experts at getting this sort of "assistance" - whether they need it or not. "Education" is not too far behind.

oldtiffie
08-07-2008, 07:32 AM
Peter is the moderator of the Monarch Forum on PracticalMachinist:

Hardinge Calls it Quits on the HLV-H (http://www.practicalmachinist.com/vb/showthread.php?t=117597)

01-29-2006, peterh5322
Diamond

It is reliably reported that the final ten HLV-H toolroom lathes are being assembled on the erection floor at Elmira, and no more will be made.

This should come as no surprise as HLV-H clones, some of which have features quite advanced over the HLV-H itself, are selling for about $17K, and even Hardinge Brothers have been buying these lathes for its internal use.

HLV-H, RIP.

01-30-2006, W. Carter Marcy
Aluminum

I spoke to a fellow at Hardinge today, as I was ordering some parts for my HLV-H. I asked him about the production of these lathes. He said that yes, in fact, they are halting production as soon as the machines in progress are finished. He said the reason was lack of demand, but they intend to make them again if the demand increases. I think the chances of that happening are slim. He did say that the parts will be available as always, and they hope to continue the replacement parts indefinately.

Thanks lazlo.


This should come as no surprise as HLV-H clones, some of which have features quite advanced over the HLV-H itself, are selling for about $17K, and even Hardinge Brothers have been buying these lathes for its internal use.

I am neither gloating nor surprised, but if true it more or less "says it all". It is a major concession by Hardinge, who as I've seen mentioned on this forum, are having "financial" ("survival??") problems of their own.

In the event that it happens where are the "genuine Hardinge" spares to come from?

Is/are Mexico and other South American countries included in "Western Countries", and if not, why not?

That part of the world has its own oil, refineries, iron ore, steel mills and some manufacturing capacity. I would not be the least surprised to see more from there. Or would the US regard that as "another Cuba"? or new/neo "India/China" on their door-step?

.RC.
08-07-2008, 07:55 AM
Government policy is quite often "slanted" toward "locally made only" with the inference that it is "supporting local industry" when in fact it is the result of "political leverage"

Of course the flip side to this is that when you need it in times of emergency you can get it..A bit like the government selling off ADI then ADI finding out that the only propellant manufacturing plant at Mulwala was obsolete...The government was left with two choices either help ADI redevelop the site at a cost of $200 million+ or let ADI shut it down and import all powder supplies for the military...Then they remembered that in times of war or dire emergency it may be impossible to import the needed product as your once ally may refuse to supply you with needed ammunition like the US Congress did to South Vietnam in 1974 with ammunition supplies..

Eventually the government chipped in a lot of money and the Mulwala site has been redeveloped into a modern plant..

.RC.
08-07-2008, 08:06 AM
Is/are Mexico and other South American countries included in "Western Countries", and if not, why not?



Good question....Maybe we should change the topic to rather than western countries instead to "Are there any quality fully manual lathes made any more like the old Leblond's,American Pacemaker's, Macson's, Sheraton's, Dean Smith & Grace's, Cazaneuve's, Mori Seiki's???"

Which is sort of what I was meaning the thread to lean towards..

oldtiffie
08-07-2008, 08:22 AM
Of course the flip side to this is that when you need it in times of emergency you can get it..A bit like the government selling off ADI then ADI finding out that the only propellant manufacturing plant at Mulwala was obsolete...The government was left with two choices either help ADI redevelop the site at a cost of $200 million+ or let ADI shut it down and import all powder supplies for the military...Then they remembered that in times of war or dire emergency it may be impossible to import the needed product as your once ally may refuse to supply you with needed ammunition like the US Congress did to South Vietnam in 1974 with ammunition supplies..

Eventually the government chipped in a lot of money and the Mulwala site has been redeveloped into a modern plant..



In theory - perhaps.

Mulwala is in exactly the wrong spot as is the ADI-run Ordnance factory at Bendigo. They were to be closed down as being uneconomical and badly sited, but were kept open and subsidised because of "local pressures and influences". Williamstown Dockyard was the same.

Its all "politics" as those facilities are in sensitive political "heart-lands" - no matter how they "spin" it.

The reality is that most allied countries use similar/same pattern arms and ammunitions so that they can supply each other. Its no good being the "odd one out" when you run out far from home.

Using over-seas designed equipment is the same justification.

Its got to be there when you need it. "Supply", "repair", "tankers" have limited capacity and must be compatible with allied patterns.

The logistics can be horrific - the more so if the situation is "desperate".

Most of our support etc. industries for defence are over-seas owned and managed/run anyway.

ADI was sold by the government and is all foreign-owned (Thales).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Defence_Industries

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thales_Group

Here's another:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Submarine_Corporation

And another (the list goes on and on):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boeing_Australia

Its almost a licence to print money!!

They are all "sole suppliers" and the control (or lack of it) of Defence contacts and expenditure is legendary.

Not too many of our allies would want to be too dependent on critical supplies from here.

oldtiffie
08-07-2008, 08:42 AM
Is/are Mexico and other South American countries included in "Western Countries", and if not, why not?


Good question....Maybe we should change the topic to rather than western countries instead to "Are there any quality fully manual lathes made any more like the old Leblond's,American Pacemaker's, Macson's, Sheraton's, Dean Smith & Grace's, Cazaneuve's, Mori Seiki's???"

Which is sort of what I was meaning the thread to lean towards..

I would guess that if we stick to "new" lathes that there almost certainly are.

There is no real reason to suppose that some of the better lathes from Asia and India are not or cannot be made to that standard.

I think that Ries "nailed" it nicely as regards Europe in his post #44 at:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=372630&postcount=44

Most of the "old" lathes you mention went out "backwards" long before the "Asian influx". Most in later years relied on "Government assistance". They "made their names" prior to, during and after WW2 where any good machines were snapped up due to short supply and long lead-times. As soon as the competition "hotted up" - out they went.

On the other hand, I don't doubt for a minute that the Chinese will not use that classic "Western capitalist" ploy of "predatory pricing" to "knock off" any competition and then will dominate the markets and will charge accordingly - just as GM, Ford, GE, Westinghouse etc. did and do - with their "cousins" here, Europe, UK and else-where.

lazlo
08-07-2008, 02:11 PM
In the event that it happens where are the "genuine Hardinge" spares to come from?

Is/are Mexico and other South American countries included in "Western Countries", and if not, why not?

I'm not sure I should bring this up, lest I get death-threats :), but Hardinge has a plant in Taiwan, and supposedly the SV/XV series CNC machines are built there...

oldtiffie
08-07-2008, 06:09 PM
Thanks lazlo.

I'd be inclined to turn it around though.

It is possible that if you were able to determine who the large(st) shareholder/s of Hardinge is/are that you might find that beneficial ownership is in China.

If that is the case, Hardinge (China) may have plants in Taiwan and the USA!!!

Or it might be the Arabs (oil) or Russia (oil)!!!

Seriously though, I don't think it matters as commerce/industry will do as it must to make a dollar and to survive. I don't think for a minute that this does not apply to other "American" companies. It sure does happen to so-called OZ companies that are owned over-seas ands have either got their own plants in China and/or have stuff made by China and imported.

OZ was never a serious machine tool maker. We have and still do make some on a minor scale - but nothing significant - so far as I am aware.

I am more/only concerned with the way the machine/lathe operates and what its cost and "spares/support" situation is.

.RC.
08-07-2008, 07:22 PM
I am more/only concerned with the way the machine/lathe operates and what its cost and "spares/support" situation is.

But you must have some pride when you see something mechanical that says "Made in Australia." Whether it be a Chamberlain tractor or a Sunbeam mixmaster (yes I know Sunbeam always has been an overseas company)

All we seem to concentrate on now in this country is selling "services" and dumbing down the nation as much as possible..

.RC.
08-07-2008, 07:27 PM
I love it when people say sh1t like this, so full of it. CNC's are being used more and more in maintenance and repair shops, especially cnc lathes like the haas tl series.

Ok fair enough I was a bit harsh but when I said repair (and limp wristed californian :D) I meant turning down that shaft that the apprentice welder just stuck a heap of bird **** on with big globules everywhere, or jobs where they just need one end of a piece turned down a bit or a thread on one end..I know CNC gear is good even for one off new pieces and I have read some can even repair threads...

oldtiffie
08-07-2008, 09:41 PM
I am more/only concerned with the way the machine/lathe operates and what its cost and "spares/support" situation is.


But you must have some pride when you see something mechanical that says "Made in Australia." Whether it be a Chamberlain tractor or a Sunbeam mixmaster (yes I know Sunbeam always has been an overseas company)

All we seem to concentrate on now in this country is selling "services" and dumbing down the nation as much as possible..

I do have an immense pride in something that is designed and made in OZ that does what is intended, is an elegant solution and is priced right and well-supported. It does not need to be a machine tool. We are a very innovative country and our research, development and science are "way up there".

I am quite well aware too of the conditions under which some of those earlier "Made in Australia" stuff was made. It was appalling - and would not have been tolerated in third world countries. "Hercus" et al were "knock-offs" of the USA "South Bend" lathes. So were most of the machines made here during and after WW2. Ask some of the people who worked there.

It just so happens that I lived in Kensington (the "pits" and a real slum) in Victoria in the 40's and 50's and I saw and delivered newspapers etc. to the workshops and foundries etc. I was a "sticky beak" as regards things mechanical - and it was not pretty. I used to pass McPherson's plant/factory where they made the much-vaunted "Macson" range of lathes etc. It was not too bad - but it sure wasn't good. I have friends who worked in that slave-hole known as McKay-Massey-Harris in Footscray as well. It was no wonder we had a strong Communist Party (long since gone) and strong Trade Unions!!! And don't ask about the conditions in the steel mills or shipyards at Whyalla and Newcastle!!

I can well understand why even now kids don't want to work in cold hard work-shops as part of a machine that has to be de-humanised and "cost efficient". Its no wonder they'd prefer to be a drafter, Electrician, Carpenter or Plumber. Those trades are more "personal" and you can "go out on your own" as a sub or main contractor with minimum costs and over-heads and do quite/very well. But I would not encourage a Fitter-Machinist/Tool-maker to try it unless there was a very compelling case.

There is nothing wrong with the service industry where you have to be innovative and self-sufficient and a good diagnostician and technologist working with a lot more modern technology.

Evan
08-07-2008, 10:14 PM
Plus CNC machines have no class they just look like a square block like some limp wristed californian would use..


Born and raised in Bezerkley, California. :D

Square block eh?

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/eng4thaxis.jpg

mochinist
08-07-2008, 10:54 PM
Ok fair enough I was a bit harsh but when I said repair (and limp wristed californian :D) I meant turning down that shaft that the apprentice welder just stuck a heap of bird **** on with big globules everywhere, or jobs where they just need one end of a piece turned down a bit or a thread on one end..I know CNC gear is good even for one off new pieces and I have read some can even repair threads...I can live with that. I just get annoyed when I see people saying that, both have their advantages.

.RC.
08-07-2008, 11:00 PM
Born and raised in Bezerkley, California. :D

OK anyone who I have not yet offended and feels left out please raise your hand...:D




I have friends who worked in that slave-hole known as McKay-Massey-Harris in Footscray as well.

What sort of conditions were they???? would they have been considered the norm at the time???? Sort of like modern day call centres where you are monitored 100% of the time and even have your toilet breaks marked down in case you take too many..

I am a late generation X'er so I was not around to see what conditions were like back in the 50's, 60's, 70's...Although looking back at the pictures from that era, you don't see many fat people...

oldtiffie
08-07-2008, 11:37 PM
OK anyone who I have not yet offended and feels left out please raise your hand...:D

What about the "limp-wrist brigade"?



What sort of conditions were they???? would they have been considered the norm at the time???? Sort of like modern day call centres where you are monitored 100% of the time and even have your toilet breaks marked down in case you take too many..

I am a late generation X'er so I was not around to see what conditions were like back in the 50's, 60's, 70's...Although looking back at the pictures from that era, you don't see many fat people...

In a word - atrocious. OH&S was not even practiced let alone invented!!.

Long hard hours with little rest in hot/cold (very) ill-lit conditions with little or no "benefits" with plenty waiting to take your job at lower wages if you lifted your head or were "too slow". You were given no notice - just "out" (and on the "black list"). Wages were at subsistence levels. There was no "dole" - just work for the "man" on subsistence pay ("Susso"). There were little or no "benefits" or "amenities" as we know them.

This was not always the case as there were some "good" shops, employers and Foremen.


Sort of like modern day call centres where you are monitored 100% of the time and even have your toilet breaks marked down in case you take too many..

Worse than that - lots worse. Very limited number and times for toilet breaks. And it was the sack if you took a book or paper to read!!!

Call centres might look or be like "battery hens" but at least they get to sit in comfortable chairs in clean air-conditioned spaces and have all the "benefits" as well as Canteens, car-parks, showers, locker-rooms, Sick Bays, OH&S, award/contract wages/rates, universal health care etc. etc.


Although looking back at the pictures from that era, you don't see many fat people...

You don't see too many that are really well - or really old - either. Very few working under those conditions survived to get an Age pension at 65 years of age. It was "sweat-ed labour". It was not just in OZ either - it was fairly universal.

Living in the slums didn't help either - nor did poor clothing and nutrition.

Those so-called "good old days" were anything but to many at the time and yet are "romanticised" by some who were never there, never knew or had family etc. who went through it.

Despite all of this there were some superb Tradesmen/Craftsmen - quite a lot actually - but not all were!!!

And I will be damned if I'd think well of any machine made in my country under those conditions - no matter how well it worked - lathes included - in this "Western Country".

R W
08-08-2008, 12:33 AM
And I will be damned if I'd think well of any machine made in my country under those conditions - no matter how well it worked - lathes included - in this "Western Country".

The Sunshine H V McKay factory built good quality farm machinery, possibly only surpassed by John Shearer in SA, No doubt working conditions wern't great but they would have been equal to or better than any where else in the world at that time and most probably ahead of conditions in many Asian factories to-day.
In fact to-day I look back with pride at the time I spent working these Australian made machines.

.RC.
08-08-2008, 12:51 AM
What about the "limp-wrist brigade"?


ha ha that was a joke aimed at the state of California as to me that seems to be where all our engine emission laws come from...We have some Stihl gear that says it is made to comply with Californian clean air act etc etc and unless the fuel you stick in them is brand new they simply refuse to run, while our Husqvarna gear will run regardless..

oldtiffie
08-08-2008, 07:44 AM
The Sunshine H V McKay factory built good quality farm machinery, possibly only surpassed by John Shearer in SA, No doubt working conditions wern't great but they would have been equal to or better than any where else in the world at that time and most probably ahead of conditions in many Asian factories to-day.
In fact to-day I look back with pride at the time I spent working these Australian made machines.

I don't doubt that H V McKay stuff was good - very good - especially the Sunshine Harvester. Its long life and productivity in the field year after year was legendary. But that is agricultural machinery. I am talking about the conditions on which some of the earlier stuff was made, no doubt on OZ-made lathes etc.

They had to lift their game in later years else the Unions and of OH&S people as well as industrial awards would have seen them closed down.


No doubt working conditions wern't great but they would have been equal to or better than any where else in the world at that time and most probably ahead of conditions in many Asian factories to-day.

That seems to be saying that it was OK because it was no worse than others. It is in fact saying that it was always poor - which was not always the case in many (other) shops.

Try this quote:


Harvester Judgment
A dispute between McKay and the unions representing the Sunshine workers was heard before the Commonwealth Court of Conciliation and Arbitration in Melbourne between October 7, 1907 and November 8, 1907.H. B. Higgins heard evidence from employees and their wives. In the Harvester Judgment, he obliged McKay to pay his employees a wage that guaranteed them a standard of living which was reasonable for "a human being in a civilised community," regardless of his capacity to pay. McKay successfully appealed this judgement, but it became the basis of the basic wage, which dominated Australian economic life for the next 60 to 80 years.

from:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/H_V_McKay

The "wages" and "conditions" were equally bad but were separate issues.

It does sound a lot like it is supposed to be in China doesn't it?

After I left Primary School (Kensington, Year 6, age 11), I won a scholarship to go to the brand new Footscray Junior Technical School (Year 1, 1948) to start my mandatory 3 (minimum) or 4 (preferred) year pre-Apprenticeship Trade training/schooling. It was not far from Sunshine where the H V McKay factory was. Quite a few of my school friend's fathers and/or grand-fathers or brothers worked there as there was not much else that was closer. It was still not a nice place to work on any count. There was a lot of ill-feeling and "strife" there then.

loose nut
08-08-2008, 05:33 PM
Square block eh?

http://vts.bc.ca/pics3/eng4thaxis.jpg

Evan, Artisans say that a statue is just a block of marble with the extra bits cut away. It looks like the extra bits are gone from your block, with a few new ones added in.

.RC.
08-08-2008, 11:44 PM
So we can say that there are some but very few manual lathes made in western countries and where available are quite pricey...However you can buy reconditioned lathes from some manufacturers(or get them to recondition their brand of lathe that you own)..New higher priced ones seem to be available from eastern EU countries and South American countries.

However manual lathe manufacturing in eastern countries seems to be prevalent and quality is improving all the time to the point where it would equal what used to be built in post industrial countries, however design of these new lathes leaves a lot to be desired but then since CNC is capable of so much new manual lathes do not need to be fully featured like the days of old...

oldtiffie
08-09-2008, 02:44 AM
That's a fair summary Ringer.

Machines are made to a cost with functionality - aesthetics are not an issue - but real or perceived value for money is.

The whole project end-to-end has to be viable enough to make a reasonable profit and to recover tooling, finance and development costs. With low margins and high costs, that means long production runs and high sales volumes.

Same as cars and consumer goods I suppose.

I only want my machines to last 5 years at which time I will review them and decide whether to retain/repair or replace them or leave them as they are or get rid of them altogether. Many businesses have a similar model/business/finance plan. Cars and consumer goods are about the same.

On several occasions I have made a point when I am at my preferred supplier on OZ (Hare and Forbes - Machinery House) to take a walk around some of the old machines for sale that have been "traded in" and (re)put back up for sale etc. I then have a look at the new stuff (almost exclusively Asian - China/Taiwan). The new stuff wins hands down pretty well every time.

http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/

http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Used_Equipment

It may well be different else where and in the eyes of others.

If I have a rare or unusually large or difficult job that I cannot do myself, I will either re-think it or get it done by others (costly!!) or buy in new tools. Its rare for me to have a job that I can't hold in one or two hands.

I have fairly limited time and space in my shed/shop too so they limit things somewhat. There is not an unlimited supply of funds/cash here either!!

Support for the machine/tool is important as well.

homeshopAl
08-11-2008, 09:07 PM
Good evening. A year and half ago I was looking at Lathes. I thought that The Myford would look great in my basement shop. I enquired at a USA Vendor of Myford Lathes. The fellow told me that being that the dollar exchange rate was poor, The Myford would cost me $13,000.00 I was totaly surprised that it could cost so much. homeshopal

lane
08-11-2008, 10:08 PM
To all who read. Their will come a time in the not to distance future where it will be illegal to build , rebuild are repair any thing. You buy it use it throw it away. at that point we wont be allowed to have lathes and mill and the toys we have now. I just hope I`m dead by then. My guess would be about 2050 are so. Something to think about the way things are going.
What I know for sure is in1981 a South Bend lathe 10k with cabinet cost$3183.95 The motor was $191.00
The drum switch was$113.10
Taper attachment $280.00
Steady rest was $157.25
Thread dial $48.00
6" 4 jaw chuck $.250.00
5 " 3 jaw chuck $260.00
Total cost with freight for 10K South bend was $4607.00 all from my original bill of sale .

oldtiffie
08-12-2008, 04:00 AM
Why not re-think this?

As I understand it the US makes some excellent CNC(-ed?) lathes. It should not be too difficult to use the lathe similar to manual under CNC control. When ever my supplier comes good with my CNC-retro kit for my "Seig" X3 mill, it will run under Mach3 to/into which I will insert/use a "Shuttle Express" (which I have ready) and which can switch or be switched between drives/ports (under software) and used as a manual hand-wheel. Mach3 screen display will act as a DRO.

http://www.contourdesign.com/shuttlepro/shuttlexpress.htm

There has been too much made of the "tail-stock problem" with CNC lathes.

John Stevenson, lazlo and a few others are really "into" this and their advice is excellent.

The "Seig" CNC lathe that John S is developing with and for "Seig" is an excellent example.

I can't see why a good new CNC(-ed?) lathe "Made in the USA" lathe can't be bought and do the job.

I can't see why we have to stick to a traditional engine or cone-pulley lathe - at all.