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View Full Version : One more... a stuck tailstock quill



Fasttrack
08-01-2008, 09:03 PM
First question:

Is quill the right term? I'm never sure what to call the retractable part of the tailstock. I've heard quill and ram both and I'm not sure what is correct.

Second question:

Its stuck :( How do I un-stick it? :)
The quill is rusted in place and I've got it disassembled, but even some penetrating oil and heavy blows with a hand sledge didn't budge it. Do I need to rig up a big ol' bath of washing soda and water or... ? I don't want to break anything. Any tricks for doing this or should I just have at it with a sledge hammer. There's no rush to get it done, and i'll figure something out eventually but I thought I'd see what you all had to say on the matter.

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0732.jpg

http://i108.photobucket.com/albums/n22/fasttrack237/Pacemaker/100_0733.jpg

BadDog
08-01-2008, 09:32 PM
No idea if it's the best way, but I would approach something like this.

1) If you think it might work, soak (actually soak in a pail) in penetrating oil for a while. Try to press out, but not too aggressive.

2) The reason I said "if you think it might work" on #1 is that it will interfere with #2 if it does not. I've had some luck soaking badly stuck stuff in Phosphoric acid (Concrete etch 5:1 with tap water). That stuff has worked wonders of several stuck and rusty assemblies, and seems to do no damage to good metal. I used it on an old shaper compound (probably off a 20" 'er) and when done it still had undamaged paint and you could see scraping clearly on the slides. Moves smooth as glass and you would be hard pressed to tell it was every rusty (except for badly pitted steel portions).

Good luck!

KiddZimaHater
08-01-2008, 11:20 PM
Place it in a large bucket, or plastic tub.
Go to Home Depot or Lowes, and buy 1 gallon of Acetone.
Go to Auto parts store, buy a couple of cans of power steering fluid.
Now cover/soak your tailstock with a 50/50 mix of acetone & power steering fluid, for a couple of days.
That'll loosen everything up.
After soaking, 'Persuade' the ram out with a stiff board and mallet.:D

Rich Carlstedt
08-01-2008, 11:33 PM
Yes, Quill is the proper term.
Your photos are so close up, I am not sure of what I am looking at?
It seems that the top photo shows the REAR of the tailstock, with the leadscreww still attached, and the leadscrew thrust bearing removed below.
The second photo seems to be the inside of the tailstock , taken from the
rear without the leadscrew and showing the rear bore .

So what I appear to see is a lot of rust inside ?
Plug the hole, stand the bore up, and fill the chamber with an inch or so of
penetrating oil. gently heat up the outside of the casting about 100 degress and let it stand ( do not boil the oil.)
Try it the next day.

I would not use phosphoric acid, as that will turn the metal black, but that is up to you.
If it was mine, and I had no arbor press to remove it. I would make a plug of scarap aluminum or steel, to loosely fit the bore and a little short of the thrust bearing..
fill the chamber with grease (30 % ?) and insert the plug in the space and occupy as much space as possible ( less grease lost )
Take the thrustbearing and make a grease zerk adapter for the bore, and screw in the bearing.
Then put a grease gun on the zerk and pressure release the quill using hydralic grease pressure
Rich

Fasttrack
08-01-2008, 11:39 PM
Thanks guys! I hadn't thought about using grease pressure. I don't have any press around here and wrestling it in the press is tough. It weighs about 200 lbs.

Yep - sorry for the crappy photos. The top one is the rear of the tailstock with the screw installed and the bearing is still in place. The bearing seats against that large cast plug. The bottom is the inside of the bore showing some of the rust/corrosion.

Rich Carlstedt
08-01-2008, 11:40 PM
The least amount of damage to the parts IF THE QUILL HAS A THROUGH HOLE is to put a pipe over the quill outside, and longer that the quill.
Then put a threaded rod through the quill and have a big washer (s) inside against the rear of the quill.
Put a bigger washer accross the pipe at the head stock end and nut it.
Then hit the nut with an impact wrench.
This will put the tailstock casting under compression ( very goood !), while pulling the quill out

Rich

Fasttrack
08-02-2008, 12:04 AM
Hey! I hadn't thought of that. Awsome tip, Rich! Thanks a bunch. I think I will try that. I just need a pipe big enough... the quill diameter is 4" and there is currently a center stuck in the taper. It does have a through hole and a couple of pecks with a bit of brass rod and a hammer should knock the center out.

BadDog
08-02-2008, 01:13 AM
I would not use phosphoric acid, as that will turn the metal black, but that is up to you.
Rich
I keep hearing about that. Below you will see a thumbnail of the shaper compound I mentioned. It was rusted solid and freed up by acid bath, then disassembled and cleaned, then back in the acid bath to finish on areas now better exposed. I don't notice any significant blackening...

http://img4.pictiger.com/ff3/16282391_th.jpg (http://baddog.pictiger.com/images/16282391/)

Here is a pick of my setup drawer. Many of the items in there came from $5-10 "lots" at auctions, some came from scrap bins, most had at least "fingerprint" markings, and some had significant rust where let stand in coolant and such (at a guess?). Can you tell me which ones went through the acid? Here's a hint, most of them; so you could pretty much pick anything in that drawer and win the cigar...

http://img4.pictiger.com/37e/14437270_th.jpg (http://baddog.pictiger.com/images/14437270/)

Likewise I've got a "quick vise" and many other similar items that showed some rust and/or serious "patina", many of these now look near new. I don't understand how everyone keeps having all these problems with Phosphoric Acid cleaning. Too high on the ratio maybe? I'm using Concrete Etch from HD at (usually) around 5:1. I've seen some blackening depending on alloy, but it generally comes off with light oil and fine Scotch-Brite (for aesthetics). Critical surfaces like ways are generally in Cast Iron which seems to have only the lightest of grayish discoloration. But it usually comes off easily with ISO 22 DTE and cotton, though I have been known to use a light touch with a fine (usually already "worn in" on non-critical surfaces) scotch brite. And I also sometimes use a "soft" wire wheel on non-critical surfaces to speed it up a bit, but that's just getting in a hurry mostly...

All I can say is that I'll be buying another gallon when this one is consumed! :D <shrug>

Fasttrack
08-02-2008, 10:56 AM
I think if you use Naval jelly or similiar that is advertised as a "rust remover" it causes that blacking. Its supposed to protect the bare metal from further rust damage, according the back of the bottle.

Most coolant shouldn't rust bare metal. It is too basic. Acid, on the other hand, will rust them. I used one of my free 1-2-3 blocks to make a sort of jig while soldering some pieces. I didn't think about it then and just wiped the excess flux off of the blocks. Well, the acidic flux accelerated the rusting process and I've now got some very hairy clumps of rust growing on the inside of the block and some discoloration on the outside.

Richard-TX
08-02-2008, 11:53 AM
Place it in a large bucket, or plastic tub.
Go to Home Depot or Lowes, and buy 1 gallon of Acetone.
Go to Auto parts store, buy a couple of cans of power steering fluid.
Now cover/soak your tailstock with a 50/50 mix of acetone & power steering fluid, for a couple of days.
That'll loosen everything up.
After soaking, 'Persuade' the ram out with a stiff board and mallet.:D

I would lengthen that out to at least a week. I had a piston that was rusted solid in a bore. Soaked it for two weeks in mineral spirits. It same out with a little coaxing. If I ever have to do it again I am going to try diesel fuel.

ckelloug
08-02-2008, 01:00 PM
The amount of phosphoric acid is critical I suspect. I do not know the ratios but I've been reading and I know for example that fuming nitric acid will passivate the surface whereas a weaker solution will just dissolve the part :eek:

See wikipedia entry on nitric acid.

--Cameron

BadDog
08-02-2008, 06:14 PM
I think if you use Naval jelly or similiar that is advertised as a "rust remover" it causes that blacking. Its supposed to protect the bare metal from further rust damage, according the back of the bottle.
I'm told (and read) that the black coating and other effects depend on the alloy. For instance, I believe it is the presence of zinc that cause Phosphoric Acid to create "Parkerizing". Similarly, higher carbon content in steel seems to increase the blackening effect, while iron seems largely immune to it (but does get a sort of gray mat finish). In my experience, anything that doesn't include Zinc cleans right up and looks nice. That's assuming that it is, in fact, Zinc presence that has caused the few cases where I saw blackening that was more stubborn. In any case, it hasn't been enough of an issue for me to bother investigating how to reduce the effect.

JCHannum
08-02-2008, 06:59 PM
Acid is acid, and acid attacks metals. Some more than others, but I prefer not to use it.

A soak in diesel for as many days as you can stand followed by jacking out with all thread as Rich described would be my preference. I had a totally tied up Fairbanks Z headless engine that succumbed to this method after a week of soaking. It had had the ignitor removed and mice had taken up residence for several years. Mouse pee is corrosive and quite effective at siezing an engine.

Scishopguy
08-02-2008, 07:33 PM
I have been a fan of KROIL ever since I tried it. A friend had a small engine that was stuck solid and we broke it free by putting a spoonful of KROIL down the spark plug hole and leaving it over night. That stuff turns rust into a muddy sludge. It spun over the next day without resisting. I have no connection to Kano Labs but I can say as a customer that their stuff works as advertised.

ckelloug
08-03-2008, 02:29 AM
Not to harp on the acid point but concentration is a very important aspect of what happens. The chemistry is such that some extremely concentrated acids produce oxide layers on metals which prevent further oxidization while weaker dilutions of the same acid would simply dissolve the part.

I learned about this property doing research on how to dissolve the copper portion of an armor piercing round without harming the steel core to help a colleague who needed to take accurate measurements of the steel core. I ended up milling it rather than dissolving it as getting a hold of fuming nitric acid isn't easy on short notice so I didn't see the effect described above.

See
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitric_acid#Passivation

Regards all,

Cameron