weld cast iron to 1045?

[Carld]

Can I use nickel rod to weld cast iron to 1045 stee? If not then what can I use?

[CCWKen]

I'm a better grindor than a weldor so I'd probably try it. I was told you couldn't weld W-1, O-1 or HSS bits but got past that fib. I would heat the 1045 up to red first though. Wouldn't hurt to have the CI hot too. Cool slowly after.

[Fasttrack]

http://www.thefabricator.com/Metallurgy/Metallurgy_Article.cfm?ID=570

[lazlo]

I was told you couldn't weld W-1, O-1 or HSS bits but got past that fib.

Oh, you can weld HSS no problem, the problem is that you temper the HSS in the process.

This is a pair of 5/16" Chicom HSS toolbits that I TIG welded to a 5/16" piece of mild steel, and then let cool very slowly. You can see all the rainbow colors from the extensive oxidation that went on. The hardness dropped from 56 Rockwell (i.e., a typical HSS cutter) to 46 Rockwell, which isn't going to work well as a cutting tool:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/HSSTIG.jpg

If you notice on the top piece, I just tacked it front and back. The hardness is ~ 46 Rockwell in the rainbow area, and the hardness goes back up considerably toward the center, in between the two heat affected zones.

On your application, you were making a press die with HSS toolbits, so it didn't matter that you tempered the HSS in the process...

[wierdscience]

Oh, you can weld HSS no problem, the problem is that you temper the HSS in the process.

This is a pair of 5/16" Chicom HSS toolbits that I TIG welded to a 5/16" piece of mild steel, and then let cool very slowly. You can see all the rainbow colors from the extensive oxidation that went on. The hardness dropped from 56 Rockwell (i.e., a typical HSS cutter) to 46 Rockwell, which isn't going to work well as a cutting tool:

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u15/rtgeorge_album/HSSTIG.jpg

If you notice on the top piece, I just tacked it front and back. The hardness is ~ 46 Rockwell in the rainbow area, and the hardness goes back up considerably toward the center, in between the two heat affected zones.

On your application, you were making a press die with HSS toolbits, so it didn't matter that you tempered the HSS in the process...

Shallow tin filled with water,business end of tool bit submerged under water HAZ weld area out.TIG uphand,no loss of temper at the cutting edge.

[lazlo]

Shallow tin filled with water,business end of tool bit submerged under water HAZ weld area out.TIG uphand,no loss of temper at the cutting edge.

That sounds interesting Weird -- that's an old trick for welding on electric motor shafts. Did you test it with a hardness tester to see how much hardness you're losing?

But why go through all the hassle? If you want to attach HSS to a piece of stock, just braze it -- the brazing temperature doesn't come anywhere close to HSS's transition temperature.

That's why HSS toolbits are brazed, not welded, to their shanks. :)

[wierdscience]

That sounds interesting Weird -- that's an old trick for welding on electric motor shafts. Did you test it with a hardness tester to see how much hardness you're losing?

But why go through all the hassle? If you want to attach HSS to a piece of stock, just braze it -- the brazing temperature doesn't come anywhere close to HSS's transition temperature.

That's why HSS toolbits are brazed, not welded, to their shanks. :)

Never seen a HSS bit brazed to anything,that's why Williams and Armstrong make all those tool holders;) You must mean carbide.

Never tested any of them,if it doesn't change color it hasn't been affected,no need to test right?

By having the cutting edge submerged and the shank sticking up on an angle you are effectively directing the heat where you want it to go which is away from the cutting edge.It also takes a lot of heat to boil of a cup of water.

You can pull a lot of tricks with water,wet rags,fireclay and some practice.

Another trick I have used to weld toolbits is to use Vise grips for heat sinks.

[Fasttrack]

Actually tool steel is brazed quite often. A properly brazed joint on HSS is stronger than a welded joint. My friend was summarizing an interesting lecture in his metallurgy classes about the "phenomenon". A block of HSS ground and brazed to another has a much stronger joint than the same two blocks welded. He had some samples where the, in the welded case, the shear failure occured at the weld bead. In the brazed case, the failure was in the tool steel, not the brazed part. The brazed layer is very very small, hardly even visible.

Similarly, if you try to flatten out a penny in a large vertical brake/press, it will actually imprint the penny on the dies instead of flattening out the penny. As the pressure increases, the static friction between the die and the copper increases until it is more favorable to deform the die than it is to squeeze the copper across the surface of a die. This only works on a vertical press. On a train track, for instance, the pressure is applied in a non-linear fashion that causes the penny to stretch out.

[JRouche]

Shallow tin filled with water,business end of tool bit submerged under water HAZ weld area out.TIG uphand,no loss of temper at the cutting edge.


What a great idea!!!! Talk about a huge heat sink... Gonna stuff that one away for future reference. I like it!!!!! JR

[lazlo]

Never seen a HSS bit brazed to anything,that's why Williams and Armstrong make all those tool holders;) You must mean carbide.

No, I'm talking about the brazed HSS boring bars, for example. M-42 HSS brazed onto the end of a mild steel boring bar:

http://www1.mscdirect.com/ProductImages/0806101-11.jpg
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMCTLG=00&PMAKA=7808201

[wierdscience]

No, I'm talking about the brazed HSS boring bars, for example. M-42 HSS brazed onto the end of a mild steel boring bar:

http://www1.mscdirect.com/ProductImages/0806101-11.jpg
http://www1.mscdirect.com/CGI/NNSRIT?PMCTLG=00&PMAKA=7808201

I got a wheel barrow full of those,only none are brazed,mine are all single piece HSS.

[Carld]

What I am doing is welding a 1045 steel flange to a cast iron tube off a Central Machine drill press. The original flange cast as part of the tube cracked at the thin weak area. I turned the old flange off and undercut the tube some and made a new flange that I am finishing up now.

I have a .002" press fit and when I press the flange on I will mount it in the lathe, indicate the flange face in if needed then drill and tap four places around the OD and bolt the flange to the shaft. Then I will weld the flange to the tube on the top as the underside is cut for the rack to lift the table.

Then I can reassemble my drill press.

Thanks for the info.

[CCWKen]

Oh, you can weld HSS no problem, the problem is that you temper the HSS in the process....
I know. That's the point. We're past that already. I've also been welding W-1 for years now. Too many here read some Googled page and all of sudden become experts. The topic comes up all the time and the same ones keep saying you can't weld HSS or the drill rod stock. Not all applications require HSS to be a lathe cutting tool. I'm certain that most here know the effects of heat on metal. I've burned a few lathe bits myself.


On your application, you were making a press die with HSS toolbits, so it didn't matter that you tempered the HSS in the process...
Actually, they were punch dies and yes, they worked in spite of being tempered in the corners. It's what kept them from shattering in the punch.

You seem to be the expert on metallurgy at the moment. In stead of clogging up threads with useless arguments, why not just offer an answer to Carl's question. It could be he doesn't give a hoot about tempering his 1045.

[wierdscience]

Dang it I forgot to answer myself:o


Well here goes,definately pre-heat before welding,bury in dry sand when finished to slow the cooling.

As an alternative you could braze it,the braze will be just as strong as the cast,but will increase the chances of sucess.

[lazlo]

I know. That's the point. We're past that already. I've also been welding W-1 for years now. Too many here read some Googled page and all of sudden become experts. The topic comes up all the time and the same ones keep saying you can't weld HSS or the drill rod stock.

The difference is, I didn't read any Google page -- I actually welded those HSS pieces myself, and tested the Rockwell hardness before and afterwards in the ACC welding lab. That's about as scientific as you can get.

The conclusion from the 10 point drop in Rockwell hardness, even with a quick pass on TIG (which has a much lower HAZ than stick welding), is that you can't weld HSS without annealing it. The resulting welded HSS was ~46 Rockwell (10 - 16 point drop), which is a little harder than 4140 Pre Hard, but not by much...

By the way, the same does not apply to drill rod (O-1, W-2, A-2, etc...) -- they're delivered annealed, so they're a perfect candidate for welding, and then subsequent heat treating.

My welding instructor, who's a aerospace and fab- certified professional TIG welder and welding certifier, laughed when I asked about welding HSS: "You'll ruin it. Braze it if you want to keep the temper."

[lazlo]

Well here goes,definately pre-heat before welding,bury in dry sand when finished to slow the cooling.

As an alternative you could braze it,the braze will be just as strong as the cast,but will increase the chances of sucess.

Wierd, last time we were arguing about this, one of the Get R Done guys posted that you could weld HSS (which you can), to which you responded with this post, which matches my "scientific" shop test almost exactly:


We had a company in town that made custom electrical connectors and brackety for the electronics industry.All of thier punch tooling was made up of ground to size HSS toolbits that were laid up in stacks and welded together around the sides and accross the bottom.Nothing fancy,just 7018.A heated pile of sand was used to cool them off slowly.

When welded you end up with a transitional area that runs from 67-70rc at the tools cutting edge,down to 58-60 in the weld area and then down to the base metal the bit is welded to.

So like I've said before, you can weld HSS, but even if you're very careful you're dropping the hardness by ~ 17 - 25%, almost down into the 4140 Pre Hard range.

Seems like a much better approach to braze the HSS, where the brazing temperature doesn't get anywhere near the critical temperature, or welding annealed O-1 or equivalent, and then heat-treating the resulting tool.

[Shuswap Pat]

I used to do a lot of repair work, and you never know what was going to come in the door. Euctectic-Castolin (www.castolin.com), Arctec and other weldng consumable suppliers have made quantum leaps in the art of joining dissimilar metals. I would try (castolin) Eutectrode Xuper 2240. It is a low heat electrode for CI, that wikk attach it to almost anything except a cedar fence post. Contact your welding supllier for the corrct solution. With the c1045, normaly you should preheat to about 350F, but with the correct rod you may not need to do that.

I am not tied to any of these guys, but that is what worked for me.

Good luck

Pat

[loose nut]

Can I use nickel rod to weld cast iron to 1045 stee? If not then what can I use?

You can weld it with that, but I wouldn't advise it, there are much better rods available now for just that purpose, check with your local welding supplier, see what they have available (specialty weld companies have rod to weld just about any different metals together) and what welding procedure (very important with cast iron) to use with them. Different rods have different techniques and some rods are better than others. Sodel and Exergon brands are probably the best for cast iron work but not cheap (more than $100.00 per pound, OK just breath deep breaths, deep breaths).

[lazlo]

I would try (castolin) Eutectrode Xuper 2240. It is a low heat electrode for CI, that wikk attach it to almost anything except a cedar fence post.

Are all these fancy CI rods still NiRod of some sort?

Edit: that Xuper 2240 sounds like exactly what Carl is looking for:

EutecTrode Xuper 2240

Applications
Low-heat-input manual electrode for the "in-situ" repair and maintenance of cast iron and for joining cast iron with steels or copper alloys. Applications include pump bodies, compressors, machine frames, casting defects, lathes, pulleys, dies, levers, gears, generators, flanges, tables and engine blocks.

Technical data
Tensile strength Rm: 370-420 N/mm 2
Hardness (as deposited): 130-170 HV30

Features and benefits
• Exceptional weldability in all positions
• Nodular graphite deposit resists cracking
• Low-heat-input
• No electrode overheating
• Also suitable for contaminated surfaces

[wierdscience]

Wierd, last time we were arguing about this, one of the Get R Done guys posted that you could weld HSS (which you can), to which you responded with this post, which matches my "scientific" shop test almost exactly:



So like I've said before, you can weld HSS, but even if you're very careful you're dropping the hardness by ~ 17 - 25%, almost down into the 4140 Pre Hard range.

Seems like a much better approach to braze the HSS, where the brazing temperature doesn't get anywhere near the critical temperature, or welding annealed O-1 or equivalent, and then heat-treating the resulting tool.

Yes it should,but turning and shearing tools are two different animals,you actually want a softer tool for shearing.Leaving them as hardened will likely mean a sharp snap as the tool shatters.

I got nothing against brazing,it works fine,it's just arc welding is faster.

[Carld]

After much thought and talking to a machinist that I have high respect for I have decided to use a version of Dutch pins to retain the flange. What I will do is drill and tap the face of the flange at the joint line of the flange and shaft for 1/4-20 set screws at 4 places and set them with locktite. That should make a solid mount without distortion and removeable if needed. I had thought about that and the welding from the start and talking to Don cinched it for me.