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nheng
08-27-2008, 09:12 PM
I'm hearing all sorts of things that are going to be handed out to America from the back of a truck but not one word about how any of it will be financed other than taking from the rich and giving to the poor. What's going to happen is that half of the rich will retire, shutter their businesses, etc. and the other half will become poor :eek:

Not one clue among any of those whose mouths spout their empty promises. It seems that the same may hold true for half of the country. Hopefully November will show that there is still some common sense left.

What does this have to do with machining? Plenty as there is a very real long term risk that everything you like to do could be regulated, taxed or prohibited. And, if you should become successful at what you do, you will pay even more than ever, ending up with less than ever.

There is a very real danger that life and freedom as we know it will be seriously challenged ... from within. It's funny (or not) that after 9/11 Bin Laden said we would choke ourselves. We seem to be making progress in that direction. Hopefully it can be reversed.

Mad Scientist
08-27-2008, 09:54 PM
There is a very real danger that life and freedom as we know it will be seriously challenged ... from within.

Sadly I believe that is the goal of those who are actually in control of the government.
Isn’t it strange that out of all the millions of people in this country that these candidates are the best our major parties can give us?

tattoomike68
08-27-2008, 10:07 PM
Taxing the rich wont help folks get a job, I dont know about you guys but the poor folks never gave me a job.

I wish we could fire every last one of the politicians in washington DC, and start over. make those lazy peices of crap get a real job for once.

38_Cal
08-27-2008, 10:10 PM
And put them (and all Federal employees) on Social (in)Security, like the rest of us. No more full pay for life after one term! Guaranteed that the system would be fixed asap!

David
Montezuma, IA

A.K. Boomer
08-27-2008, 10:22 PM
Its going to get even worse in about a week, all with a bad track record to boot, not that im taking sides or "proud" of one over the other,
Sad that every time its an election year you hear most people say their voting for the least "evil"
I hear many people say we have the best system around too, I believe we once did, but I dont think this is what our forefathers spilled their blood for --- it has eroded into crap...

lazlo
08-27-2008, 10:24 PM
Its going to get even worse in about a week, all with a bad track record to boot

LOL, just wade right in AK! ;)

Forrest Addy
08-27-2008, 10:26 PM
Here we go. My propaganda is better than yours. Hurricaines of lies and nonsence are blasting forth fron Denver now; in only a week, more lies and nonsense will blast from Minniapolis. No party has a lock on truth in politics, posing the best qualified candidates, or serving the best interests of America. The bed you can do at present is cull what reliable news you can from the existing media and vote against the worst candidates.

If you want good government you can't sit around repeating oversimplifications and sound bites, badmouthing all who disagree with you, and failing to be critical of those whose words please you most. You have to involve yourself in local politics to the exxtent practical, analyze the issues from original sources where possible, and above all insist that elected officcials represent all the people and not just thaose that put them into office.

You want better government? Vote for the individual best suited for the office not the propaganda that would place him there.

Politics are refuges for scoundrels and opportunits scouting for personal advantage and they infest BOTH parties. If you think you own party doesn't lie to you, you're not only a fool but a hazard to the coming generation.

Dawai
08-27-2008, 10:48 PM
A very large bottle of tranquilizers just for moments like tonight. They prescribed three a day, well three a day makes me near comatose.

Hillary? Hillary.. the goofy guy standing next to her looked like he was right out of a looney bin.. Unreal..

The Rifleman on tonight? Lucas McCain for president. Washington needs a enema. Next election, watch out for the terminator.

dewat
08-27-2008, 10:55 PM
http://i81.photobucket.com/albums/j218/dewat/Fairytales.jpg

lazlo
08-27-2008, 10:55 PM
If you want good government you can't sit around repeating oversimplifications and sound bites, badmouthing all who disagree with you, and failing to be critical of those whose words please you most.

Words of Wisdom.

Todd Tolhurst
08-27-2008, 11:20 PM
Politics are refuges for scoundrels and opportunists scouting for personal advantage and they infest BOTH parties. If you think you own party doesn't lie to you, you're not only a fool but a hazard to the coming generation.

Amen, brother.

Evan
08-28-2008, 12:42 AM
Politics reminds me of this:

http://vts.bc.ca/pics/mw1.jpg

Charles Ping
08-28-2008, 02:09 AM
Politics reminds me of this:

http://vts.bc.ca/pics/mw1.jpg

Women in bikinis fighting in a mudbath?
Not sure that I'm on the same wavelength as you Evan.

Ryobiguy
08-28-2008, 02:39 AM
I think the point is that it's a circus act of mudslinging that doesn't accomplish anything. Except entertainment maybe.

-Matt

Evan
08-28-2008, 04:09 AM
I also like this quote from President Regan:


It has been said that politics is the second oldest profession. I have learned that it bears a striking resemblance to the first.
Ronald Reagan

oldtiffie
08-28-2008, 04:38 AM
Ain't changed much has it? A three ring circus?
http://www.answers.com/topic/three-ring-circus

"The greatest show on earth"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Greatest_Show_on_Earth

And the Ring-master and master illusionist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PT_Barnum

PTSideshow
08-28-2008, 05:30 AM
When dealing with Politics God had a plan and most people keep forgetting it.

The words Lips, Lawyers and Liars all shall begin with the Letter L
Since most politicians are lawyers.
Remember this if a lawyer lips are moving he is lying!
So if a politicians lips are moving he's lying
And man has it been flying this week:D
And only this next week then it really starts till November, and if he loses we will never here the end of it and the Clinton's will never go away!

J Tiers
08-28-2008, 06:54 AM
Anyone who really WANTS to be president, Senator, etc, has already proved that they have something to gain by getting elected. That means that you can look for trouble.

The only thing WORSE than people who WANT to be president, Senator, etc is people who DON'T want to be president, senator, etc.

The principle of the thing is, as everywhere else on earth, trying to find the crook who's scam is most likely to benefit YOU, and voting for that one.

Now, the benefit of electing a crook who really wants to be president, is that that person will have to deal with 200 or so OTHER totally unprincipled crooks, who are the leaders of other countries, or the leaders of international organizations such as al Quaida, etc. Therefore electing a well-meaning good person, like Jimmy Carter, is just a guarantee of being stepped on by the rest.

The answer is generally to choose the most beneficial crook, and keep on them to make sure they don't make side deals.

If the above seems cynical, that might possibly be because it IS cynical.

But it aligns very well with human nature, because every one of YOU is an unprincipled crook ALSO. It is your nature, just as it is mine.

We needn't show it, and most do not, but that does not mean that it isn't true.

if it were not true, then there would be no need for laws........

Which brings us back to government, which is "of the crooks and by the crooks". The structure of government as set up assumes that the elected officials will be crooks, and attempts to set up a system in which they are prevented from doing the harm that they might do if allowed unlimited power.

Hey, I would not have liked Jimmy Carter as an absolute dictator, or Reagan, let alone the Clintons, Nixon, etc.

Ed P
08-28-2008, 07:31 AM
"I'm hearing all sorts of things that are going to be handed out to America from the back of a truck but not one word about how any of it will be financed other than taking from the rich and giving to the poor. What's going to happen is that half of the rich will retire, shutter their businesses, etc. and the other half will become poor.
Not one clue among any of those whose mouths spout their empty promises. It seems that the same may hold true for half of the country. Hopefully November will show that there is still some common sense left."




"I contend that for a nation to try to tax itself into
prosperity is like a man standing in a bucket and trying to lift himself up
by the handle."

-Winston Churchill


"Suppose you were an idiot.
And suppose you were a member of Congress....
But then I repeat myself."

-Mark Twain


Ed P

gellfex
08-28-2008, 11:04 AM
Anyone who really WANTS to be president, Senator, etc, has already proved that they have something to gain by getting elected. That means that you can look for trouble.


The worst part is the system is expert at making those NOT crooks indistinguishable from the criminals, leading people to believe the above statement.

I have a close friend who ran for city council of Hoboken last year. Hoboken is about as corrupt a town as you'll find in one of the most corrupt counties in the country. This woman is as clean as the driven snow, yet the local machine painted her as corrupt as they were. Her opponent was a sleazebag entirely funded by developers and other politicians, and half his votes were either outright bought or voter fraud (yes, voter fraud is alive and well despite claims to the contrary), yet they tried to put her on his level.

She won, but only after winning a second court ordered election after he had attack dogs challenge her 1st victory in court.

Retail politics is a real eye opener. My own local Jersey City councilman is currently getting his butt kicked by campaigning to reduce "pay to play" contributions from city contractors and to keep elected city employees from simultaneously holding county jobs, very often with a conflict of interest. The corrupt machines have both sharp fangs and relentless grinding molars that keep the honest people from wanting to get into public service.

Evan
08-28-2008, 11:38 AM
Looks like our government is about to call a general election here as well. It will probably be in October or November. At least with the Canadian system the runup to the election is only a couple of months long. Other than that it has nothing to recommend it. You will never have well qualified people running for office if they have to put all their assets in a blind trust and let somebody else manage them, which is how it works in Canada. What morons.

J Tiers
08-28-2008, 06:34 PM
The worst part is the system is expert at making those NOT crooks indistinguishable from the criminals, leading people to believe the above statement.

I have a close friend who ran for city council of Hoboken last year.

Where did the statement that you ridicule make mention of city council?

Right, it did NOT, and the reason for that is that it is not TRUE about city council. Sometimes.

Your friend DID have something to gain. Don't even try to deny it, it is true without any question, and I don't have to know your friend to know that.

If you think about it you will figure out what.


You will never have well qualified people running for office if they have to put all their assets in a blind trust and let somebody else manage them, which is how it works in Canada. What morons.

That IS stupid..... While pretending to make sure they don't line their own pockets, it almost certainly fails to actually DO that.

The thing to fear the most, is "government fairness". "Fairness to WHO?", THAT is what you must ask.

gellfex
08-28-2008, 06:57 PM
Where did the statement that you ridicule make mention of city council?

Right, it did NOT, and the reason for that is that it is not TRUE about city council. Sometimes.

Your friend DID have something to gain. Don't even try to deny it, it is true without any question, and I don't have to know your friend to know that.

If you think about it you will figure out what..

I assumed all political office was in the "etc". You're right, she wanted something, she desperately wanted a city run for it's citizens, rather than it's pols, municipal workers and developers, which is how it's normally done here in Hudson County. Her specific issues were a park for her ward rather than a reclaimed city lot being sold for more condos, and sewers that actually drained, rather than backing up into peoples homes and the streets in storms. I know this person well, she's a Unitarian from New Hampshire, our kids went to preschool together. Sorry, there is no other agenda, she is as far from a career politician as you can get.

gnm109
08-28-2008, 08:08 PM
When dealing with Politics God had a plan and most people keep forgetting it.

The words Lips, Lawyers and Liars all shall begin with the Letter L
Since most politicians are lawyers.
Remember this if a lawyer lips are moving he is lying!
So if a politicians lips are moving he's lying
And man has it been flying this week:D
And only this next week then it really starts till November, and if he loses we will never here the end of it and the Clinton's will never go away!


I'm a lawyer and I think you are out of line.....but then, I'm probably lying since my lips are moving. Really, I was a nice guy until i passed the California Bar exam. :)

nheng
08-28-2008, 08:20 PM
Several of my friends are not old but what I would have to call old school lawyers. They feel the same way about many of today's lawyers and the legal profession that much of the public does. One has two kids heading to college and does not want them to consider the profession either.

Just got new bearings for my BPT motor but it's been a long day and I gotta head to the stadium ... on TV. Fell asleep to it last night :)

PeteM
08-28-2008, 09:17 PM
Disappointing to hear so many folks who don't feel they can help the nation make smart choices. Sure there are crooks on both sides of the political spectrum. But that doesn't mean we can't put them in their place.

There are some real issues on the table this election.

1) Figuring out a broad portfolio of energy options is key to our prosperity. No nation is better equipped to figure out what's next; but we can't be held hostage to the past.

2) We're spending trillions in what our forefathers called "foreign entanglements" and as a result bleeding from a thousand cuts economically.

3) No campaign seems to be addressing the issues of efficiency in government. Regardless of whether we tax ourselves (total burden) at 30% or 35% (or even 50% like much of Europe) -- we need to get higher return out of every dollar we spend.

4) Health care is one area we should be getting the world's best return on investment. Instead, we spend nearly twice the cost per person as the next nations but rank far lower on almost all metrics (infant mortality, longevity, etc.). This hurts our individual productivity and places a burden on business.

5) Similarly, we should be leading rather than lagging other top nations in K-12 education, especially in the sciences. There's no better "leading indicator" of which nations will do best in the years ahead.

A.K. Boomer
08-28-2008, 09:24 PM
I wish you were running for president Pete, Id vote for you in a second, Best little speech I heard in along time...

J Tiers
08-28-2008, 09:56 PM
You're right, she wanted something, she desperately wanted a city run for it's citizens, rather than it's pols, municipal workers and developers, which is how it's normally done here in Hudson County. Her specific issues were a park for her ward rather than a reclaimed city lot being sold for more condos, and sewers that actually drained, rather than backing up into peoples homes and the streets in storms.

I suspected a general reform, and specific issues, which you have confirmed.

I tend to like that sort of person.

Just remember one thing...... The Bolsheviks overthrew the Russian Czar. But the first thing the soviet communist party did was to murder or imprison virtually all the Bolsheviks.

Why?

Because, as always, reformers (or revolutionaries) are very handy for getting things done, especially if you want those things done. But once the goal is attained, they are very uncomfortable as rulers and co-members of government. They don't know how to stop "reforming" (or fomenting revolutions), because that is what they DO.

So reformers usually end up almost as bad as the people they replaced (overthrew).

It is a rare reformer who either knows where to stop, OR has an agenda which is totally centrist. Most are on a fringe, and end up imposing, or trying to impose, that fringe opinion on the majority.

In fact, that is the problem with both parties now. Even with a "maverick" on one side, and "new blood" on the other, one gets the definite feeling that the words will be different, but the results may be uncomfortably similar......

I did NOT particularly like the chanting I heard from convention coverage.......

Does not take much imagining..... HEIL! HEIL! HEIL!...... Not a good image at all. But we will probably hear much the same thing in a week from a different crowd of the unthinking mass.

nheng
08-28-2008, 10:09 PM
PeteM, I'll take some exception to #4 but you now have 2 votes ;) Den

lazlo
08-28-2008, 10:10 PM
2) We're spending trillions in what our forefathers called "foreign entanglements" and as a result bleeding from a thousand cuts economically.

We're not bleeding from a thousand cuts -- it's one big, sucking chest wound.

The fully-burdened estimate for the war's cost is now up to 1.5 - 1.7 Trillion Dollars, and that's if we left today. We're spending $12 billion a month in Iraq -- $16 billion a month if you include Afghanistan. How are we ever going to recover from that??

McCain has stated that he wants to stay the course in Iraq. OBama want to get out ASAP. But how do you do that? If you pull the troops out now, there's going to be 100 years of Shiite versus Sunni versus Kurd civil war, and it's going to completely de-stabilize the region, Al Qaeda will regain its foothold, and Iran is already a tinder box.

What's sad is that no matter what grand plans that McCain or OBama have, their presidency is going to be completely consumed with Iraq. And it seems like a completely hopeless situation.

wierdscience
08-28-2008, 10:30 PM
What's sad is that no matter what grand plans that McCain or OBama have, their presidency is going to be completely consumed with Iraq. And it seems like a completely hopeless situation.

Obama and the dems have several big problems,the war has turned around months ago and they now must figure out a way to spin a win into a loss.The surge did infact work and the Iraqi military has begun stepping up and taking the load.

The other problem they have is the economy isn't as bad as they would like.

And third the democrat controlled congress has done a horrible job of doing absolutle nothing constructive in the most inefficent and expensive manner possible.Their %9 approval rating is probably lower,but the margin of error hides some of the disgust.

lazlo
08-28-2008, 11:12 PM
Obama and the dems have several big problems,the war has turned around months ago and they now must figure out a way to spin a win into a loss.The surge did infact work and the Iraqi military has begun stepping up and taking the load.

I'll agree that the surge seems like it worked to reduce sectarian violence (see chart below), but the problem is that we're no closer to turning the country over to the Iraqi army, and we're still losing between 20 to 50 US soldiers a month killed in action. So we're still going to spend $16 Billion/month in Iraq/Afghanistan for the forseeable future. So that 1.5 - 1.7 Trillion dollar debt is going to continue to skyrocket, and it's a boat-anchor on our economy.

Or put a different way: if you're worried about Democratic entitlement programs, they pale in comparison to the amount of money we're burning in Iraq, and there's no way for either OBama or McCain to get us out of there...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/e/e0/Sec_Violence.jpg

wierdscience
08-29-2008, 12:20 AM
We are actually much further along than that.I still have two cousins over there right now,both say the same thing.They stand back and watch while the Iraqis do the majority of the work.Make no mistake there will be a US presence in Iraq for a long time to come,but nowhere near 150,000 troops.

As for entitlements,I am still waiting to hear the exit strategy for the war on poverty the single most expensive war in history and counting.$6.9trillion and counting.

http://perspicuity.net/civics/poverty.html

Another loser for the dems is their crackhead energy "policy"which looks something like this-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/wierdscience/xlg_sewing_bike.jpg

Have you seen the new T.Boone ad where he has to clarify all the mis-quotes about drilling?He said we must certainly drill here and drill now because we need a bridge to the new alternatives.We cannot develop new technology if the country is bankrupted by spiking oil prices.

Oh,and the potheads running the Discovery channel just unleased a real whopper the other night-

"we still don't know what effect all these windmill farms are going to have on the environment,we could be changing things by reducing wind speeds"

So apparently to the green nazi the alternatives are no alternatives.

dp
08-29-2008, 12:38 AM
Windmills are killing bats. Their lungs cannot handle the sudden pressure differential between the front and back of the blades. If bats were spotted owls there would be no windmill farms. That's the penalty for not being a cute endangered species.

Forrest Addy
08-29-2008, 02:24 AM
I would sure like to see on any website people avoid inflammitory lables and maliciously distorted takes on what they regard as "the other party" and stick the substantitive issues.

Obama made a hell of a speech tonight. I'm looking forward to what McCain has to say. As it presently stands I'm voting for Obama for the sole reason that he's younger and healthier than McCain. I may change and vote for McCain. Much depends on who he picks for his vice president.

I disagree with the theatrics employed in the Demo Convention. It's too much, too lavish, too Chinese Olympic ceremony. It panders to the undecided. I'd prefer that such things starkly present policy and platform to mature adult citizens.

Who knows. Maybe the Repubs will display more taste a week from now.

PD: DP I once saw figure oif how stack plumes kill birds and bats etc. I can't recall number but tthey were significant. If the bat/bird kill from windmill as they came on line balanced the fossil fuel kill as those plant went off line wouldn't it be a zero sum? My point is these arguements don't reduce very well to 500 word editorials written for a 2nd year HS dropouts - or irresponsibly edited blogs.

Malc-Y
08-29-2008, 04:28 AM
A recent survey here in the UK found that the least trusted people are politicions, what a surprise!, next were journalists and then estate agents (realtors).

Malc. :D

JoeFin
08-29-2008, 07:31 AM
Another loser for the dems is their crackhead energy "policy"which looks something like this-

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/0903/wierdscience/xlg_sewing_bike.jpg



Just simply amazing-

The party that brought us the Enron Energy Manipulation of the summer of 2001 and did nothing while speculators drove us to $5 a gal fuel, commenting about “Energy Policy”

Now that’s “Crack Head”

A.K. Boomer
08-29-2008, 08:20 AM
My thoughts exactly Joefin, I tuned in late but did catch one thing last night that impressed me about Obama, he said something kinda unpopular which is actually popular with me, He talked of how we all need to make a "change" on an individual basis, not look for our government to do it for us, he also added comments about it starting at home with conserving and such,
Not very popular to the masses, WHAT? change our ways? You got it....
No smoke blowing there, bound to have lost him some votes with the ignorant masses, But so refreshing to here that rather than Cheney giving his speech years ago about "americans need not worry about changing their ways" "conservation has never been any part of a sound energy policy" what an asshat..........If you use less You need less...........
Sad thing is is once again the ignorant masses eat it up and they find comfort in it because they dont have to worry and can keep their house on wheels.

Remembering when I was a young boy and having a president that addressed the nation I recall one that was talking about tire pressure and how americans can help just by the simple act of checking it, Instead of creating an atmosphere of "in it for yourself" I really do remember feeling a part of something much bigger like a team,,, So much so that I adjusted the tire pressure on my bicycle, who knows, maybe saved a hamburger because of it...
One thing for sure --- more than anything -- this country has lost that, And I at the very least heard a slight hint of it last night, for what its worth, even if its smoke -- its at least smoke that I like...

dp
08-29-2008, 09:39 AM
PD: DP I once saw figure oif how stack plumes kill birds and bats etc. I can't recall number but tthey were significant. If the bat/bird kill from windmill as they came on line balanced the fossil fuel kill as those plant went off line wouldn't it be a zero sum?

Are windmills replacing anything or just augmenting what we have? I'm not aware of any dismantling going on except where those systems are simply run out and need to be shut down or renovated. Coal is still king.

However - it still stands as fact that some endangered species get more attention than others based on the fact that they are cute. Case in point - support for endangered eagles in urban areas created massive amounts of protective legislation. Urban possums, what's left of them, are pretty much on their own.

Dawai
08-29-2008, 09:52 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dbH7PnMmLyI

Hillary-man youtube video..
I was looking for the video of people chanting at her to "iron our shirts"....

Nobody said to Obama "Pick our cotton" tho.. That would have been ugly, right?
I feel we have crap to choose from.. Not Obama or Hillary had enough experience to be put on the Demo ticket in my book.

McCain? he better have a good VP.. did you see the question a guy asked him about "living out the term?"

Evan
08-29-2008, 09:54 AM
You won't see an existing energy supplier of any sort shut down because a new source comes online. All the "green" energy options that are implemented are a: A drop in the bucket. and b: Supplemental.

As for bird kills one of the largest causes of unnatural bird mortality is lighted towers and antennas that attract migrating birds at night. They use them to navigate from a distance and run into guy wires.

Dawai
08-29-2008, 10:08 AM
Here's ya one Evan..

ALaska oil drilling..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlfmvwxxgHM

HERE'S the iron my shirt heckler for Hillary\
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsocCWiLh3s

BY the way, OBAMA's recent trip abroad is akin to me walking into Harbor Freight, looking at the lathes and proclaiming myself a "professional machinist".. HURRAH for change.. what the hell is everyone thinking.. Vote for Daffy Duck and your vote will not be lost.

Ya saw him wear a turban as a Muslim African, wear a jewish cap as a visitor there, what's next? a cowboy hat? AND in the words of Reverend Wright, his spiritual advisor.. Look out whitie.. They are proclaiming him a Messiah overseas on tele.. and the Hamas backs him.. HURRAH..

lazlo
08-29-2008, 10:31 AM
Here's ya one Evan..

ALaska oil drilling..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlfmvwxxgHM

There's such intense partisan fighting over ANWAR, but even the most optimistic estimates of the reserve are 16 Billion barrels, which will take years to extract. That's literally a drop in the bucket.

I have no problem with drilling ANWAR (if they make an attempt not to destroy the surrounding area), but it works out to around 500 days of oil supply:

From the USGS
Estimates of volumes of technically recoverable oil in various parts of the ANWR assessment study area.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-0028-01/image4.gif

JoeFin
08-29-2008, 11:18 AM
Granted Pelosi refused to vote on Offshore drilling because the Republicans filibustered Bills that would stop
1. Speculators Driving up the cost of Oil
2. Use the Stratigic Reserves to Drive down current record high Crude prices
3 . Impose Windfall Profits tax to promote “Clean Energy Alturnitives”

Not to mention some estimate it will take 10 years for NEW drilling to relieve oil prices.

Taking speculators out of the oil equation will drop prices at the pump IMMEDIATELY by some estimates $1.20 to $150 per gal

TODAY – not 10 years from now


A Few Speculators Dominate Vast Market for Oil Trading

Washington Post

CFTC data showed that a significant amount of trading activity was concentrated in the hands of just a few speculators.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/08/20/AR2008082003898_pf.html

BTW: For those who listen to a Drug Addeled Gas Bag (http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/home/today.guest.html) for advice around here I have another great quote


Insanity is Doing the same thing twice and expecting different results

Einstien

MickeyD
08-29-2008, 11:21 AM
We will eventually have drilling in ANWAR, and hopefully we do not trash it. But after working in the oilfield before, it will end up being a giant mess. Alaska has one of the harshest climates in the world, and even if we poke enough holes in the ground, transporting it out of there is going to make the old Alaska pipeline look like child's play. The big thing that everyone ignores is how long it will take to get the region productive. Conservative estimates are for 15 to 20 years until we could hit significant production.

The big question is should we do it or not, and I think that the answer is yes. Even if all of our cars and trucks ran on electricity from renewable sources or biodiesel, we will still need an enormous amount of oil and natural gas for petrochemical feedstocks to make everything from plastics to fertilizer to most of our industrial chemicals. Should we wean ourselves off of burning oil to run to the store? Of course. Should we stop sending billions of dollars a day to people who really do not like us just so we can avoid change? Absolutely. Should we invest in solar, wind, nuclear, drilling in offshore in Florida and California, new biofuels, and cleaning up coal? We don't really have a choice. If we can get our act together we have an enormous opportunity to be beholden to no one for our energy, and hopefully steer the rest of the world in the right direction on carbon and global warming.

Forrest Addy
08-29-2008, 11:49 AM
My figures may be out of whack but didn't the North Slope start construction under Nixon's first Admin and first oil under Regan? We might be quicker now but I really don't think a new oil field could be brought in in less than years. There's too much infrastructure to place etc. Anyway we need to push ALL energy technology from windmills to nuclear power to fusion.

Evan
08-29-2008, 12:01 PM
transporting it out of there is going to make the old Alaska pipeline look like child's play

It will also involve Canada. The most probable route for a pipeline is through Canada and that will mean jumping through an entirely different set of hoops than in the US. The northern territories have large tracts of land that are the property of the natives and it will require their approval for the project to proceed. A major issue will be anything that might interfere with the annual caribou migration as the pipeline will have to cross that region.

lazlo
08-29-2008, 12:19 PM
Taking speculators out of the oil equation will drop prices at the pump IMMEDIATELY by some estimates $1.20 to $150 per gal

TODAY – not 10 years from now

I've asked this question before: why can't the SEC just subpoena the New York Mercantile Exchange records and look at who is speculating on oil?
Clearly, Exxon is one of the major speculators, since they have the most to gain from the speculation, and their profits have suddenly skyrocketed since 2003.

But, as far as I know, it's not illegal to speculate on your own goods. If that's true, then Exxon would be stupid not to speculate on oil.
And even if the SEC exposed the speculators, unless Congress passed a Bill, there would be nothing they could do about it.

dp
08-29-2008, 01:07 PM
Where oil is concerned it is a global economy. The speculators could be in the Kremlin, Cuba, or Salt Lake City. We wouldn't have subpoena power for all of the players.

But my take on the Alaska oil is, it is good for the economy to sell that oil than to leave it in the ground where it does nobody any good. Who cares if it doesn't solve the energy shortage. It's income and income is a very good thing.

Evan
08-29-2008, 01:27 PM
Ending speculation doesn't take an act of congress. All that needs to happen is for the exchanges to refuse to resell contracts. That can be mandated via an executive order to the SEC. Then contract holders will be forced to take delivery. There are ways to do it via taxes too without directly being seen to meddle in the market. If congress passes a law that dramatically increases taxes on very short term capitol gains it will kill speculation in all commodities. If you are required to hold an asset for even just a week to become exempt from the tax then it will have almost no effect on anything but market speculation.

There are plenty of ways to address it without impairing the purpose of the market to raise money to finance corporations and to buy and sell commodities from producers to end users.

GKman
08-29-2008, 01:58 PM
I have been an American with a lower middle class income all my life. Never put a priority on making more. I probably could have, had different priorities. When I think about the quality of my life compared to the richest and poorest people on the planet, I see myself very close to the ones on top. I never miss a meal or a night’s sleep. I always have good protection from the elements. Almost always comfortable in fact. I can afford good health care. I pay some taxes and get some pretty good services for it. Haven’t had a war break out within a thousand miles of me for over 140 years. I turned 18 in 1967 and can’t think of a single person that I grew up with that was killed in war and few injured. That’s worth quite a bit in itself. The food and other stuff we buy are pretty safe. Lot of other stuff we’ve learned to take for granted. I’ve lived under 9 presidents, numerous congresses, several supreme courts and a wide assortment of other politicos and bureaucrats. Many think that they have about covered the gauntlet in viewpoints, levels of corruption, goals and directions. Me included. But you know what? None of them have moved the quality of my life up or down much on the scale between Bill Gates and a Calcutta untouchable. If much changes as a result of this election, which I don’t expect, I hope it’s to and for the ones on the ends of the scale not me, because I’ve got it good.

Don't get me wrong. I don't think the system works unattended. It takes every flag-waving delegate, angry Vietnam vet, muck raking columnist and hellfired black minister to keep it working, but it is working. Check out the WWI museum in Kansas City, Missouri if you need to see what life is like when its not.

wmgeorge
08-29-2008, 02:13 PM
We're not bleeding from a thousand cuts -- it's one big, sucking chest wound.

The fully-burdened estimate for the war's cost is now up to 1.5 - 1.7 Trillion Dollars, and that's if we left today. We're spending $12 billion a month in Iraq -- $16 billion a month if you include Afghanistan. How are we ever going to recover from that??

McCain has stated that he wants to stay the course in Iraq. OBama want to get out ASAP. But how do you do that? If you pull the troops out now, there's going to be 100 years of Shiite versus Sunni versus Kurd civil war, and it's going to completely de-stabilize the region, Al Qaeda will regain its foothold, and Iran is already a tinder box.

What's sad is that no matter what grand plans that McCain or OBama have, their presidency is going to be completely consumed with Iraq. And it seems like a completely hopeless situation.

Exactly. If you are a history student of that region or have at least studied the Bible you will see they have been fighting one another, or fighting to drive out the Jews for 3,000 - 4,000 years. The ONLY difference today is the OIL. That is the only reason, besides Israel we are there. Left to their own defense tactics the Israelites do very well on their own. Bush got us in this mess and McClain will stay the course.... I may not vote in this election, first time not voting in over 40 years!

wierdscience
08-29-2008, 07:40 PM
Just simply amazing-

The party that brought us the Enron Energy Manipulation of the summer of 2001 and did nothing while speculators drove us to $5 a gal fuel, commenting about “Energy Policy”

Now that’s “Crack Head”

The Rebuplican party didn't bring anyone the Enron scandal,nor the Tyson scandal,nor Global crossing nor Worldcom.

The Dem saviour Clinton did that by gutting the SEC allowing Whitewater accounting.

wierdscience
08-29-2008, 07:54 PM
Granted Pelosi refused to vote on Offshore drilling because the Republicans filibustered Bills that would stop
1. Speculators Driving up the cost of Oil

Speculation is driven by demand -vs- supply.If you limit supply by not drilling you are adding speculation to the equation.



2. Use the Stratigic Reserves to Drive down current record high Crude prices

Won't work,once it's gone it's gone and we are back to sqaure one.Plus those reserves are there to be used in case of emergency,you know like hurricanes,war,etc.



3 . Impose Windfall Profits tax to promote “Clean Energy Alturnitives”

This is an idiotic statement and I hope your just being a parrot.

Just who do you think will pay those taxes?The tooth fairy?The answer here is you and I the consumer.Increased taxes are a business expense which is always passed on to the consumers.


Not to mention some estimate it will take 10 years for NEW drilling to relieve oil prices.

Complete nonsense,16 months is more like it.

Not to mention if the dems hadn't blocked lifting the ban 10 years ago this wouldn't be happening now.Do we have to wait another 10 years before we have this arguement again?

wierdscience
08-29-2008, 08:03 PM
Exactly. If you are a history student of that region or have at least studied the Bible you will see they have been fighting one another, or fighting to drive out the Jews for 3,000 - 4,000 years. The ONLY difference today is the OIL. That is the only reason, besides Israel we are there. Left to their own defense tactics the Israelites do very well on their own. Bush got us in this mess and McClain will stay the course.... I may not vote in this election, first time not voting in over 40 years!

Sorry that is a nonsense statement."A loose collection of warring tribes in constant turmoil for thousands of years" that can be applied to nearly every people on the planet.How are Europeans or Asians any different?

Everyone who makes that statement forgets our own history as white Europeans,how many years in the last 2,000 has Europe been at peace vs war?60 million dead on the continent last century.

lazlo
08-29-2008, 08:34 PM
The Rebuplican party didn't bring anyone the Enron scandal,

Enron was very tight with the Republican Party -- they often lent their corporate jets to Bush and various other Republican Candidates. Enron was especially tight with the Bush family -- Enron was the single biggest sponsor of his G.W.'s political career, up 'till their crash.

Ken Lay, Enron's CEO (who was convicted of 10 counts of securities fraud and sentenced to 10 - 30 years in Federal Prison) was a close personal friend of George Bush. Ken Lay served on Bush's transition team, and Bush tasked him with screening candidates for the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.

Talk about hiring the fox to guard the hen-house! :)

...and then there's Phil and Wendy Gramm, also close personal friends of G.W Bush.

Phil Gramm (of Texas, of course), chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, in the months before the Enron/California energy fiasco, muscled legislation through Congress reducing government oversight of energy trading without a Senate committee hearing! Gramm had jurisdiction over the legislation he co-sponsored, but he chose to bypass his own committee, and the bill was quietly tacked on to a "must-pass" appropriations bill late in the session.

Wendy Gramm, his Wife, was the chairwoman of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. She forced through a key energy regulatory exemption on Jan. 14, 1993, six days before Clinton took office. Five weeks later, she joined Enron’s board of directors. Enron, a leading contributor to Phil Gramm's campaign coffers, then named Wendy Gramm to its board of directors, where she served on the board’s audit committee and pocketed millions in payments and stock benefits over the next nine years. She also had access to key financial information about the company.

Phil Gramm is now co-chair of McCain’s campaign, and he's notably the moron who called Americans "a "nation of whiners" whose economic complaints are mostly "mental."
This, coming from a guy who personally made millions off the Enron debacle...

http://themoderatevoice.com/wordpress-engine/files/2008-april/01aagramm_mccain.jpg

lazlo
08-29-2008, 08:44 PM
..and if anyone doesn't see the striking similarities between Enron manipulating the energy commodities market in 2000-2001 and Exxon manipulating oil prices:

Trader Jokes About Stealing From "Grandmothers"

Enron Corp. traders openly discussed manipulating the California power market and joked about stealing from grandmothers during the Western energy crisis in 2000-2001, according to transcripts of telephone calls filed with the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.

http://www.click2houston.com/money/3373367/detail.html

"Burn, baby, burn. That's a beautiful thing," a trader sang about the massive fire.

Four years after California's disastrous experiment with energy deregulation, Enron energy traders can be heard – on audiotapes obtained by CBS News – gloating and praising each other as they helped bring on, and cash-in on, the Western power crisis.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/01/eveningnews/main620626.shtml

From the transcripts:

Before the 2000 election, Enron employees pondered the possibilities of a Bush win.

"It'd be great. I'd love to see Ken Lay Secretary of Energy," says one Enron worker.

That didn't happen, but they were sure President Bush would fight any limits on sky-high energy prices.

"When this election comes Bush will f---ing whack this sh!t, man. He won't play this price-cap bullsh!t."

Crude, but true.

Evan
08-29-2008, 08:55 PM
They also didn't pay British Columbia about 1 billion for power they bought then. Not sure where that stands now.

Mad Scientist
08-29-2008, 09:09 PM
From another forum I found this guy who has a “slightly” different take on why we have an oil problem. He is a minister and was preaching to the Alaska pipe line workers as it was being built. As a result he became friends with many of the oil company’s executives and learned of the politics that control the supply and price. If what he says is true then we do not have an oil problem but obviously we are not suppose to know about that.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3340274697167011147&p=

Unfortunately this is an 1 hour and 15 minute lecture :eek: however once I started watching I couldn’t turn it off.

wierdscience
08-29-2008, 09:29 PM
Enron was very tight with the Republican Party -- they often lent their corporate jets to Bush and various other Republican Candidates. Enron was especially tight with the Bush family -- Enron was the single biggest sponsor of his G.W.'s political career, up 'till their crash.

Ken Lay, Enron's CEO (who was convicted of 10 counts of securities fraud and sentenced to 10 - 30 years in Federal Prison) was a close personal friend of George Bush. Ken Lay served on Bush's transition team, and Bush tasked him with screening candidates for the Federal Energy Regulatory Commission.

Talk about hiring the fox to guard the hen-house! :)

...and then there's Phil and Wendy Gramm, also close personal friends of G.W Bush.

Phil Gramm (of Texas, of course), chairman of the Senate Banking Committee, in the months before the Enron/California energy fiasco, muscled legislation through Congress reducing government oversight of energy trading without a Senate committee hearing! Gramm had jurisdiction over the legislation he co-sponsored, but he chose to bypass his own committee, and the bill was quietly tacked on to a "must-pass" appropriations bill late in the session.

Wendy Gramm, his Wife, was the chairwoman of the Commodity Futures Trading Commission. She forced through a key energy regulatory exemption on Jan. 14, 1993, six days before Clinton took office. Five weeks later, she joined Enron’s board of directors. Enron, a leading contributor to Phil Gramm's campaign coffers, then named Wendy Gramm to its board of directors, where she served on the board’s audit committee and pocketed millions in payments and stock benefits over the next nine years. She also had access to key financial information about the company.

Phil Gramm is now co-chair of McCain’s campaign, and he's notably the moron who called Americans "a "nation of whiners" whose economic complaints are mostly "mental."
This, coming from a guy who personally made millions off the Enron debacle...



And you are expecting anyone to believe that dems wern't joined at the hip with Enron as well?Large entities such as Enron always hedge their bets,they donate heavily to BOTH parties.

I will also point out that the indictments and jail terms came under a replublican house,senate and whitehouse.It was the media that spun it into a "republican" scandal.Just like they spun the Jack Abramov scandal as being "repbulican" even though half of the players were democrats including Harry Reid none of who have been indicted by the current dem majority congress.

As for Lindsy Graham,he is right,Americans being told the economy is horrible day in and day out tends to make them believe it.When they believe it they begin curtailing spending.Since the economy depends on money being spent the prophecy of a "weak economy" becomes self -fullfilling.

gmatov
08-29-2008, 09:43 PM
David,

Now you know. Obama doesn't have enough experience. McCain picks a lady Governor with 2 years in aStatehouse, after being Mayor of a town of 9000.

Experience? Or hoping to catch some of the "Hillary" supporters who say they will vote for McCain rather than the guy who won over Hillary?

Many angry women out there who just MIGHT go for a lady Veep, one heartbeat away from the Presidency.

I tried Googling the polls for the parties separately. 9% overall could, but can't find evidence either way, that either has a better poll result than the other.

The Dems have 50 votes, plus Liebermann, a bare majority, and there are always some Dems who don't like their own party's idea. SOME Reps must think some of the Dem's proposed bills ARE good ideas, else they would be stalled 51 to 49 rather than 57 to 43 when they can't bring it to a vote.

Them who realize that we are hopelessly in debt should also realize that the proposals Obama has made, which the Reps are belittling as bankrupting the US, are supposedly paid for by allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire.

Those tax cuts give the richest 1% 900 billion a year relief. Were they rescinded, or allowed to expire, that would more than make up for our balance of trade deficit.

They gave you a lousy 300 bucks the year they were instilled. Oh, I think that was billed as an advance on your next years refund, calculated in advance.

Paul whatsisname, Chairman of Alcoa, had capital gains of 56 million bucks, when he was installed. Each percentage point that the top rate, and more especially, the Cap Gains rate went down, was worth 560 thousand bucks to him. GOOD reason for him to push for reducing the rates for the rich.

I have a good idea whom I will vote for. Something catastrophic will have to happen to change my mind.

Cheers,

George

Sorry to have to add:

nheng,

I have to respectfully disagree with you. Just BECAUSE rates might rise, to rates before GWB, which were not all that onerous, if you do research that shows there were plenty of super rich then, though maybe not so many as now. There has been the "Forbes 400" for many years. It takes lots more to make the list since GWB came into office.

Enron affair was pikers compared to the last couple years of Bush and Co. Enron took about 12 billion from California. Under the present Admin, we are out hundreds of billions of dollars for coal, propane, nat gas, electricity. That money has been drained from consumer spending on other things that could have kept the current recession at bay. Gutting the regulatory agencies has not been beneficial to the populace at large, just the rich.

Bankruptcies are at near, if not, all time highs, numerically, if not percentage wise. Foreclosures, ditto, of people who THOUGHT they owned their own homes.

SS/HS, as well as some of the shop owners over on PM, are in trouble, yet so many think another 4 or 8 years of Bushism will be good for the country. War IS good for some parts of the economy, them who make military weaponry. Some of that does trickle down to some of you or them, so it looks like staying in Iraq is good for business. Invading Iran might help you even more. 'Nother 10 thou or more dead US military men and women, well, you can't make a billion bucks profit without breaking some eggs.

Wonder how many here have a son or daughter IN the military, put in harm's way, in this adventure of GWB's. Scion of the British throne was supposed to go to War. Cancelled, because the Crown was afraid that the Iraquis or the Afghanis would target the boy.

Now we have a VP nominee whose son is enlisted in the US Army Reserve, do you think that the US Secret Service will allow him to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan?

My cousin, 70 years old, asked me tonight if John McCain, at least 3rd generation Naval Academy, though I think 2nd from the bottom of his graduating class, had a son to carry on the McCain tradition of Admirals. I didn't know. Has McCain a son who has been commissioned, or has served?

Or is he childless? Or are all his issue with the beer distributor heiress, who will NOT serve?

Most of you are right, politics are the dirtiest profession. All liars, and the "If my lips are moving, I am lying." is as true as can be.

JoeFin
08-29-2008, 09:44 PM
As for Lindsy Graham,he is right,Americans being told the economy is horrible day in and day out tends to make them believe it.When they believe it they begin curtailing spending.Since the economy depends on money being spent the prophecy of a "weak economy" becomes self -fullfilling.

You lost me on that one

You mean all the home foreclosures are imaginary?

The fact my commute is 15 minutes shorter becuase the lack of cars going to work on the Freeway is a figment of my imagination?

lazlo
08-29-2008, 09:55 PM
You mean all the home foreclosures are imaginary?

...and the $12 Billion Federal bailout of Bear-Stearns.

...and the 1.5 Trillion we've spent so far on Iraq, increasing by $16 Billion/month.

...and we're officially in a recession

...and Wall Street is deep in a Bear Market.


The fact my commute is 15 minutes shorter becuase the lack of cars going to work on the Freeway is a figment of my imagination?

...and the Dollar is at its lowest value in 9 years.

...and Bush will leave office with the highest budget deficit in American history: $482 billion

Bush to leave a record budget deficit of $482 billion (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-deficit29-2008jul29,0,4458909.story)

"Today's announcement is a cautionary tale for the next president and Congress that we cannot spend our way out of the economic downturn," said Sen. Judd Gregg of New Hampshire, the top Republican on the Senate budget panel.

"Skyrocketing energy bills have hit families and businesses hard, and while tax rebate checks have been issued to help address the lag in economic growth, the extra $2,200 families must pay in higher gas and oil bills this year alone have long since absorbed any impact the stimulus payments were meant to have to spur economic growth."

But other than that, the economy is fine. Quit yer bitching! :D

"Today's announcement is a cautionary tale for the next president and Congress that we cannot spend our way out of the economic downturn," said Sen. Judd Gregg of New Hampshire, the top Republican on the Senate budget panel.

"Skyrocketing energy bills have hit families and businesses hard, and while tax rebate checks have been issued to help address the lag in economic growth, the extra $2,200 families must pay in higher gas and oil bills this year alone have long since absorbed any impact the stimulus payments were meant to have to spur economic growth."

By the way, I would argue that Phil Gramm, who made most of his millions by leaching off Enron's rape of California, doesn't have a leg to stand on when criticizing the rest of the country for complaining about the economy.

JoeFin
08-29-2008, 10:00 PM
And Phil Gramm is McCain's economic advisor....

And McCain's VP choice is under an Ethics Investigation

Honestly I feel like the GOP is throwing the election because they honestly need a Democrat to come in and fix the economy so they can raid it once again in 8 years

wierdscience
08-29-2008, 10:18 PM
You lost me on that one

You mean all the home foreclosures are imaginary?

The fact my commute is 15 minutes shorter becuase the lack of cars going to work on the Freeway is a figment of my imagination?

The lack of cars has more to do with the price of fuel,people have reduced their driving.

Foreclosures?You mean all those people who bought WAY more house than they could afford?The same ones who didn't wait until the the housing market slumped before buying.It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that when you have 7 years straight of 8 million homes plus being bought and sold sooner or later everyone who could possibly want or afford a house has maybe bought one?At some point the housing market had to stumble.

Now the financing crisis,why were all those risky loans made?Because those in the banking and finance industry believed if they got into to trouble with massive defaults that the fed(taxpayers) would bail them out.Well we did at least partly.Bush originally said he would not sign a bill bailing out the finance industry,he later caved under pressure from the fed and congress.

Why did they believe that a bail out would occur?Partly because it's been done in the past and partly because the chairman of the senate banking oversight committee and others got a good deal on a loan from Country Wide.

http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/top-5/2008/06/12/Countrywide-Loan-Scandal

lazlo
08-29-2008, 10:20 PM
and partly because the chairman of the senate banking oversight committee and others got a good deal on a loan from Country Wide.

http://www.portfolio.com/news-markets/top-5/2008/06/12/Countrywide-Loan-Scandal

I with you there Wierd. They're all scumbags.

wierdscience
08-29-2008, 10:43 PM
And Phil Gramm is McCain's economic advisor....

And McCain's VP choice is under an Ethics Investigation

Honestly I feel like the GOP is throwing the election because they honestly need a Democrat to come in and fix the economy so they can raid it once again in 8 years

Phil Grahm is gone,has been for months.

As for Gov Palin-

"Let's see now..
This ex brother-in-law (Alaska State Trooper) of the governor tasers the11 year old nephew of the governor, drinks alcohol in his police car, another time gets let go by his fellow troopers after a bartender called 911 that this trooper had just left the bar and was driving extremely drunk, he threatens to put a bullet in the head of the governors father ....and SHE is getting investigated for abuse of power for bringing all this to the attention of her Public Safety Commissioner? And the trooper still has his job"

I suppose covering up his behaviour would be better tolerated by Dems?

Republicans raiding the economy?Horse s---!Do I really need to remind you two of the 8 years previous to Bush?The Clintons which are the second worst embarrassment in US history behind Jimmy Carter.

http://highvolumemedia.com/thebullhorn/WarOnTerror/ClintonsFailures/

It's a long list.

http://members.tripod.com/GOPcapitalist/clinton-scandals.html

MickeyD
08-29-2008, 10:56 PM
I am not shedding a lot of tears for the people who took out liar loans and are now in foreclosure. The ones that I feel sorry for are the legitimate homeowners who have lost their jobs and have to move and cannot sell their houses because real estate is in the toilet. Allowing the mortgage industry to run amok just because it made Wall Street happy for the quarter was short sighted and plain stupid, and just another example of the looting and rape of our national trust. Our money (which means your retirement savings) is worth half of what it was just seven years ago because the rest of the world sees just how good of a job we are doing managing our currency and accounts.

If McCain manages to win you better hope that the Democratic Congress manages to strengthen the FDA so that the dog food you will have to eat when you retire is not contaminated with Chinese melamine.

lazlo
08-29-2008, 11:03 PM
Enron affair was pikers compared to the last couple years of Bush and Co. Enron took about 12 billion from California. Under the present Admin, we are out hundreds of billions of dollars for coal, propane, nat gas, electricity. That money has been drained from consumer spending on other things that could have kept the current recession at bay. Gutting the regulatory agencies has not been beneficial to the populace at large, just the rich.

Well said George. De-regulation, of course, was the core cause of the California energy crisis. In other words, if you give a greedy SOB a chance to exploit the system, he will.


Scion of the British throne was supposed to go to War. Cancelled, because the Crown was afraid that the Iraquis or the Afghanis would target the boy.

Now we have a VP nominee whose son is enlisted in the US Army Reserve, do you think that the US Secret Service will allow him to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan?

Prince Harry actually deployed to Afghanistan, but like you say, he was in a very isolated spot surrounded by SAS. He was safer than in his Mother's arms. They had to bring him home when the British press found him and published photos of Prince Harry and his unit playing soccer, completely blithe to any possible danger.

Joe Biden's son spoke at the DNC convention last week, and the commentator mentioned that he was being deployed to Iraq. But just like Harry, you can be damned sure he'll never be in harms way. The last thing either the Dems or the Reps want now is another Pat Tillman incident.

lazlo
08-29-2008, 11:12 PM
I am not shedding a lot of tears for the people who took out liar loans and are now in foreclosure. The ones that I feel sorry for are the legitimate homeowners who have lost their jobs and have to move and cannot sell their houses because real estate is in the toilet.

There's also a lot of foreclosures that are drive-by victims. People who bought a home with a 5/1 ARM, for example, and were well within their means to pay the mortgage. Then CountryWide drives around in mini-vans offering half million dollar loans to homeless people, and mentally ill people and when they move into a legitimate neighborhood, and then subsequently default, they kill all the real state value. Then the people with legitimate mortgages can't refi their ARMs because the property is suddenly worth half of what they financed before all the foreclosures moved in.

Then there's a third group of foreclosures that are truly sad: Army reservists. These poor schmucks signed up for a weekend/month and 2 weeks/year. Then 911 happened, and most of them were permanently activated. The problem is that the Army Reserves pays a hell of a lot less than the Regular Army, and a whole heck of a lot less than their day jobs. Their employer won't kick in the difference, of course, so most of these guys end up having their houses foreclosed while they're on long-term deployment in Iraq. What a swell Commander In Chief -- taking care of his troops. :mad:

JoeFin
08-29-2008, 11:21 PM
The foreclosure debauckle would not have been possible if not for the 2002 Banking Deregulation that allowed "Bundleing"

You'll have to talk to Phil Gramm about that 1. Him and his wife (Enron board of Directors) wrote the law

BTW: Phil Gramm publicly is "no longer" John McCain's economic advisor. Phil Gramm is merely running his re-election campaign

wierdscience
08-29-2008, 11:29 PM
...and the $12 Billion Federal bailout of Bear-Stearns.

...and the 1.5 Trillion we've spent so far on Iraq, increasing by $16 Billion/month.

...and we're officially in a recession

...and Wall Street is deep in a Bear Market.



...and the Dollar is at its lowest value in 9 years.

...and Bush will leave office with the highest budget deficit in American history: $482 billion

Bush to leave a record budget deficit of $482 billion (http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/nation/la-na-deficit29-2008jul29,0,4458909.story)

"Today's announcement is a cautionary tale for the next president and Congress that we cannot spend our way out of the economic downturn," said Sen. Judd Gregg of New Hampshire, the top Republican on the Senate budget panel.

"Skyrocketing energy bills have hit families and businesses hard, and while tax rebate checks have been issued to help address the lag in economic growth, the extra $2,200 families must pay in higher gas and oil bills this year alone have long since absorbed any impact the stimulus payments were meant to have to spur economic growth."

But other than that, the economy is fine. Quit yer bitching! :D

"Today's announcement is a cautionary tale for the next president and Congress that we cannot spend our way out of the economic downturn," said Sen. Judd Gregg of New Hampshire, the top Republican on the Senate budget panel.

"Skyrocketing energy bills have hit families and businesses hard, and while tax rebate checks have been issued to help address the lag in economic growth, the extra $2,200 families must pay in higher gas and oil bills this year alone have long since absorbed any impact the stimulus payments were meant to have to spur economic growth."

By the way, I would argue that Phil Gramm, who made most of his millions by leaching off Enron's rape of California, doesn't have a leg to stand on when criticizing the rest of the country for complaining about the economy.

Yet you must have missed the latest numbers on the economy.The GDP grew by a larger than expected amount,the dollar is continuing to rise against the other currencies,the export rate increased and durable goods orders are up.

The deficit is a problem and will be so long as we refuse to deal with several glaring issues the biggest of which is Social Security and Medicade/care.

1/3 of Medicare claims are fraudulent according to a recent report,yet nothing is being done about it.

Social Security is in free fall and no one is doing anything about it.Budget from 2007-

SS $586.1 Bil
Medicare $394.5 Bil
Medicade $276.4 Bil

Nothing is being done to reform those and nothing will get done.SS alone will make every other expendature look like chump change by 2015,2017 it goes in the red.

Now that war spending estimate is for ALL operations including Iraq and Afganistan and everything else we are doing world wide for the period covering 2001-2017.This estimate was made by the CBO using two different scenerios niether of which the war is currently following exactly.

"Including both funding provided through 2007 and projected funding under the
two illustrative scenarios, total spending for U.S. operations in Iraq and Afghanistan
and other activities related to the war on terrorism would amount to between
$1.2 trillion and $1.7 trillion for fiscal years 2001 through 2017"

The total to date for all operations world wide is $602bil.Counting money that hasn't been spent yet is an old political trick used by the party wanting to gain power.

It should also be noted that the finacial and real property losses steming from 9/11 are estimated at $2.1Trillion.

wierdscience
08-29-2008, 11:41 PM
Well said George. De-regulation, of course, was the core cause of the California energy crisis. In other words, if you give a greedy SOB a chance to exploit the system, he will..

But your ignoring the fact that a chance must be availible.That came in the form of California not investing in it's own energy production.They got screwed,but only because they were bent over.At any rate,they are toast,they went froma liberal socialist governor to an even more liberal socialist governor.





Joe Biden's son spoke at the DNC convention last week, and the commentator mentioned that he was being deployed to Iraq. But just like Harry, you can be damned sure he'll never be in harms way. The last thing either the Dems or the Reps want now is another Pat Tillman incident.

Actually what no one wants is a hostage.

Prince Harry I have to give credit to,even playing soccer surrounded by SAS is not safe.All it takes is one IED,one rocket attack or one mortar attck and it's all over.

lazlo
08-30-2008, 12:15 AM
Now that war spending estimate is for ALL operations including Iraq and Afganistan and everything else we are doing world wide for the period covering 2001-2017.This estimate was made by the CBO using two different scenerios niether of which the war is currently following exactly.

"Including both funding provided through 2007 and projected funding under the
two illustrative scenarios, total spending for U.S. operations in Iraq and Afghanistan
and other activities related to the war on terrorism would amount to between
$1.2 trillion and $1.7 trillion for fiscal years 2001 through 2017"

That's because the CBO estimate is strictly for the costs of military operations. They intentionally do not include the fully-burdened cost of the war, which includes large: veteran's benefits, death pay-outs to the 4,000 American troops killed so far, the cost of paying the contractors including Haliburton, etc etc.

We're paying $4 Billion/month to the contractors in Iraq, and that's not considered an operational military cost, by creative accounting.

Estimates of Iraq War Cost Were Not Close to Ballpark
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/03/19/washington/19cost.html

WASHINGTON — At the outset of the Iraq war, the Bush administration predicted that it would cost $50 billion to $60 billion to oust Saddam Hussein, restore order and install a new government.

Five years in, the Pentagon tags the cost of the Iraq war at roughly $600 billion and counting. Joseph E. Stiglitz, a Nobel Prize-winning economist and critic of the war, pegs the long-term cost at more than $4 trillion. The Congressional Budget Office and other analysts say that $1 trillion to $2 trillion is more realistic, depending on troop levels and on how long the American occupation continues.

Among economists and policymakers, the question of how to tally the cost of the war is a matter of hot dispute. And the costs continue to climb.

lazlo
08-30-2008, 12:24 AM
Yet you must have missed the latest numbers on the economy.The GDP grew by a larger than expected amount,

The GDP grew in the 2nd quarter because the Whitehouse spent $146 Billion dollars in "economic stimulus" -- the tax rebate checks. Of that 3.3 percent GDP growth, 1.2% was from a spike in consumer spending, attributed to the rebate checks. So basically, Bush bought a spike in the GDP leading up to the election, at the cost of $146 Billion.

The GDP growth in Q1 was 0.9%, for comparison.


the dollar is continuing to rise against the other currencies

The Dollar is still at historic lows. What you're seeing is that the UK and the EU is following the US into recession. The British Pound hit the lowest value in 14 years this week. If you want to compare the true value of the USD, compare it to a growth economy, like China ;)

2008 - Chinese Yuans to 1 USD
http://www.x-rates.com/d/CNY/USD/hist2008.png

tattoomike68
08-30-2008, 02:52 AM
Here's ya one Evan..

ALaska oil drilling..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MlfmvwxxgHM

HERE'S the iron my shirt heckler for Hillary\
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jsocCWiLh3s

BY the way, OBAMA's recent trip abroad is akin to me walking into Harbor Freight, looking at the lathes and proclaiming myself a "professional machinist".. HURRAH for change.. what the hell is everyone thinking.. Vote for Daffy Duck and your vote will not be lost.

Ya saw him wear a turban as a Muslim African, wear a jewish cap as a visitor there, what's next? a cowboy hat? AND in the words of Reverend Wright, his spiritual advisor.. Look out whitie.. They are proclaiming him a Messiah overseas on tele.. and the Hamas backs him.. HURRAH..

http://i206.photobucket.com/albums/bb66/chslawnman/untitled-7-1.jpg

JoeFin
08-30-2008, 07:54 AM
Not to mention the "Masterful" propaganda campaign the Bush administration waged to lead America into the war in Iraq.

We see Bush and Cheney's lead source for intel during the lead up to war has made the news again.


Chalabi aide arrested on suspicion of Baghdad bombings
Nicholas Spangler and Hussein Kadhim | McClatchy Newspapers

last updated: August 28, 2008 07:42:18 PM

BAGHDAD — U.S. forces have arrested a deputy of Ahmad Chalabi, who was once the Bush administration's favorite Iraqi politician, and implicated him in bombings that killed Americans and Iraqis, Chalabi and Iraqi government officials said Thursday.

The U.S. military alleged that the arrested official was working with the "highest echelons" of the Iranian "special groups" criminals, referring to what the U.S. military says are Iranian-backed militias operating in Iraq.[/B]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/iraq/story/51031.html

Despite numerous warnings from the CIA, the Bush administration relied solely on this fellow for thier pre-war intel. 5 years, over 4000 US lives, and over 1 trillion dollars later, the Bush administration has yet to apologise to the American people. The simple fact McCain is so ready and willing to continue thier mistake in Iraq is simply mind boggeling

BTW:I have never seen a group of people {Bush apologist} take such emense pride and diligence in defending these gross errors and mistakes. Nor have I seen such a group of Iraq War Armchair Quarterbacks without so much as a single DD-214 between them

Face the facts folks - Anyone who supports this kind of crap has lost ALL credibility as a Patriotic American

Dawai
08-30-2008, 08:23 AM
Aye Mike..


That photo shows just what I have always said.. A "bad ride" is better than a "grand walk" anyday traveling somewhere.

JoeFin
08-30-2008, 08:33 AM
http://www.csmonitor.com/2005/0426/csmimg/04-26_DU.jpg

Bush holding his hand while the Sheek tugs at his crotch kinda says it all - Hey George whats going on here

JoeFin
08-30-2008, 09:36 AM
I spend a lot of time up at the Veteran’s Home. My father lives there now as at 92 he is all but alone and the comradery of days gone by keeps him young at heart if nothing else.

What impresses me the most are the WWII vets (who are an endangered species due to their age now) and the absolute sacrifices they made to keep this country Free. Unparalleled in my mind.

Those guys stormed the beach, knowing full well the casualty estimates going in. Imagine maintaining your post while the ship you where on traded 5in shells for 16 shells on the waters of the Philippines. Imagine storming the beach knowing full well 1 out 5 would not be with you that night. America rolled up the sleeves and went to work building the tanks, planes, and armaments used to fight the war by what ever means using whom ever was capable, with what ever materials they could find.

Sacrifice was common to all.

Now we have Defense contractors reaping in 4 Billion dollars a month. All on cost plus, no bid contracts and the Vise President the former CEO and still on the board of directors of 1 of the largest War Profiteers feeding at the trough call the public treasury.

Some contracts are placed with subcontractors 2 and 3 times – ALL at cost plus 20% until the total profit margin reaches 60%.

Security Contractors (mercenaries) being paid $140K per year standing along side a US Marine 1st class earning less then $15K per yr.

Until you know the sound of bullets cutting the air around you so well you have an eerie sense of calm because they are not hitting around you. Until you’ve had Russian Migs circle your position so close you can look up and see the pilots face – you have got very little I wish to listen to.

Used to be a time when War Profiteering was unthinkable. They would have been called up in front of congress, dissected and pronounced for the cretin they were in full view of the American public. Now in this New Age of Corp Greed and their minions of followers who prefer to “Vote Wealthy, and Live Poorly” it is embraced with both arms. – “Purely disgusting”- UnAmerican and UnPatriotic!

Mad Scientist
08-30-2008, 11:01 AM
Why is our economy in trouble?
Is it because a bunch of uninformed individuals took out home loans that they didn’t understand and couldn’t afford? Partly yes.

But what about the bankers that made these large loans surly they realized the risk. Which of course they did, but they didn’t care because they had made “their” commissions and then these loans were sold to larger banks. As a cost of doing business these banks expected that some of these loans would fail. But when they started to fail in mass then they went crying to the government and asked for our tax dollars to bail them out.

This then caused some of our illustrious politicians to jump up and down on their soap box and declare that we need new “laws” to prevent this sort of thing from happing in the future.

Of course what they fail to mention was that there were previously laws that did just this sort of thing, but because of a request from the bankers they were repealed.

Yet we are told we must keep on voting for either tweedledee or tweedledum.
Because we are suppose to believe somehow by repeatedly doing the same thing the same way that this is going to cause a change. :confused:

A.K. Boomer
08-30-2008, 11:50 AM
Even though it might not change much Id still rather go with tweedledee this time instead of tweedledumb...:D

wierdscience
08-30-2008, 06:13 PM
Not to mention the "Masterful" propaganda campaign the Bush administration waged to lead America into the war in Iraq.

We see Bush and Cheney's lead source for intel during the lead up to war has made the news again.



Despite numerous warnings from the CIA, the Bush administration relied solely on this fellow for thier pre-war intel. 5 years, over 4000 US lives, and over 1 trillion dollars later, the Bush administration has yet to apologise to the American people. The simple fact McCain is so ready and willing to continue thier mistake in Iraq is simply mind boggeling

BTW:I have never seen a group of people {Bush apologist} take such emense pride and diligence in defending these gross errors and mistakes. Nor have I seen such a group of Iraq War Armchair Quarterbacks without so much as a single DD-214 between them

Face the facts folks - Anyone who supports this kind of crap has lost ALL credibility as a Patriotic American

So Mr.Expert what would you have us do?

Quit now?Lose the ground won with 4,000 lives?Elect an affirmative action hire and a token white that will shred the military and retreat from terrorists?

If a DD-214 is so important to you I think McCain knows more about one than Obama.

38_Cal
08-30-2008, 06:23 PM
Let's face it...all of the major powers (and the minor ones, too) were fooled by faulty intelligence about Iraq's capabilities. We're there, let's get the job finished properly. Pulling out now would dishonor my son's fellow Marines who didn't make it home, as well as the others in the Army, Navy Air Force and Coasties. My DD-214 says U.S. Navy, 1968-72. Oldest son was Army, second was Marines.

David
Montezuma, IA
Desperately (but joyfully) clinging to my guns & religion in flyover country!

Evan
08-30-2008, 06:34 PM
I'd like to know how anybody can pull out the forces in Iraq without getting severely mugged by the "insurgents" when the numbers get low.

I will point out that the action in Iraq cannot be "won" as long as there is a single radical muslim believer left on Earth.

Dawai
08-30-2008, 07:04 PM
Barrack HUSSIEN OBAMA must have a plan.. He set a date:

Anyone else remember the withdraw from Saigon? Them helicopters could not float, shoved off into the sea.

MickeyD
08-30-2008, 07:57 PM
From http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5glz91oS2gfjNeEnc434cozHuQynA

In reversal, Bush to accept Iraq withdrawal timetable

Aug 22, 2008

CRAWFORD, Texas (AFP) — From "surrender date" to "aspirational time horizon," US President George W. Bush seemed poised Friday to seal a reversal in Iraq policy by accepting a target withdrawal date.

But the White House poured cold water on Iraqi claims that Washington and Baghdad had reached a deal that would see all US combat troops out of Iraqi cities by next June and US forces gone from the war-torn country by late 2011.

"There are still discussions ongoing. And it's not done until it's done," said spokesman Gordon Johndroe, who added that the negotiations were "hopefully drawing to a conclusion."

Bush and Iraqi Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki spent an hour discussing the planned accord, which would set the rights and responsibilities of US forces in Iraq after their UN mandate lapses in late 2008, said Johndroe......

dp
08-30-2008, 08:03 PM
From http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5glz91oS2gfjNeEnc434cozHuQynA

In reversal, Bush to accept Iraq withdrawal timetable

Bush has always said we will remain in Iraq so long as we are needed and the local government requests it. There's no reversal - the local government set a date so we leave. No surprise.

JoeFin
08-30-2008, 08:11 PM
So Mr.Expert what would you have us do?

Quit now?Lose the ground won with 4,000 lives?Elect an affirmative action hire and a token white that will shred the military and retreat from terrorists?

If a DD-214 is so important to you I think McCain knows more about one than Obama.

A lot of Vets are pretty pissed off at McCain for referring to his service record every time he can't answer a question

What a disgrace to all those left behind. And especially disgraceful of you because I sincerly suspect you don't have a service record to hide behind

You know J. Leno actually asked McCain "How many houses do you actually have? and McCain's answer was some thing about Hanoi Hilton.

Point is and always was don't go to war on a trumpt up lie for the profit of a few. Don't ask Americans to make the supreme sacrafice so a handful of Defense contractors can rake in profits

oldtiffie
08-30-2008, 08:18 PM
The US Military "DD Form-214" has been mentioned in passing without saying or showing what it is.

To that end, this Wikipedia item might assist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DD_Form_214

lazlo
08-30-2008, 08:25 PM
I'd like to know how anybody can pull out the forces in Iraq without getting severely mugged by the "insurgents" when the numbers get low.

You can't. The Shiites and Sunnis only stop fighting when there's enough US soldiers that they lose more insurgents to US intervention than to each other. As soon as the US occupation force is "manageable", they'll start fighting again.


I will point out that the action in Iraq cannot be "won" as long as there is a single radical muslim believer left on Earth.

That's precisely why I said Iraq is a hopeless situation for either Obama or McCain. The sectarian violence is lower because of the troop surge. The moment either Obama or McCain reduces the number of troops below the surge level, the 3-way civil war between Shiite, Sunni and Kurd is going to start all over again.

So in reality, we have two choices -- either leave the current surge-level troops in Iraq forever, at a cost of $16 Billion and an average of 30 dead soldiers each month, or repeat the Fall of Saigon and pull all the troops out all at once, let the Shiites kill all the Sunnis and Kurds (the Shiites are 60% of the country, the Sunnis 15%, the Kurds 8%), and wait for them come after us with various 911 plots for Fubar'ing their country.

Todd Tolhurst
08-30-2008, 08:31 PM
Barrack HUSSIEN OBAMA must have a plan.
If middle names told us anything about politicians, I would have liked Bill Clinton a lot better.

JoeFin
08-30-2008, 08:40 PM
The US Military "DD Form-214" has been mentioned in passing without saying or showing what it is.

To that end, this Wikipedia item might assist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DD_Form_214

Yes Ol.dtiffie that is what it is

Its also a polite way of asking Chickenhawks and Armchair Quarterbacks to please stop running off at the mouth about some thing they know nothing about

Dam thing is I still miss a few friends not here

So when I see all these guys touting “If you don’t support the War your UnPatriotic”, and they never served - it kind of pisses me off. It didn’t so much before but it really does now. Hell I volunteered, I wasn’t drafted.

Besides the War against the Terrorist that struck the World Trade Center was in Afghanistan. During which time I was 100% behind George Bush and secretly was hoping for a little “Scorched Earth”

Actually the US would have been smart to have one of the tribal leaders in Afghanistan capture Osama, cut of his head, place it on a stick, and parade it down the streets of Kabul in front of CNN for the whole world to see. Sending the message “you can run but you can’t hide from the USA” was critical at that time.

Sad to say, letting Osama get away paved the way for the defense contractors and a phoney War against Terror in Iraq. I'm not saying that is what happened, just that it couldn't have worked out any better

lazlo
08-30-2008, 08:45 PM
From http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5glz91oS2gfjNeEnc434cozHuQynA

In reversal, Bush to accept Iraq withdrawal timetable

But the White House poured cold water on Iraqi claims that Washington and Baghdad had reached a deal that would see all US combat troops out of Iraqi cities by next June and US forces gone from the war-torn country by late 2011.

Mike, as much as most Americans would like to see us out of Iraq, this is just more election politics. The Iraqis aren't stupid, they know it will be a bloodbath if the US troops leave, or even draw down. This is just Bush's attempt at dealing with McCain's statement that we could be in Iraq for "another 100 years".

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-fg-rice22-2008aug22,0,4681896.story

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who met with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki in Baghdad's fortress-like Green Zone, downplayed expectations that approval of an agreement was imminent.

"We'll have agreement when we have agreement," Rice told reporters, addressing speculation that a deal was near.

Rice and Maliki huddled for 2 1/2 hours, trying to iron out differences in the pact, which would govern the presence of U.S. forces here after their United Nations mandate expires in December.

Iraq's foreign minister warned that Iraqi politicians must still approve any deal, cautioning that previous drafts had been touted as complete, only for one side or the other to find fault.

JoeFin
08-30-2008, 09:11 PM
Mike, as much as most Americans would like to see us out of Iraq, this is just more election politics. The Iraqis aren't stupid, they know it will be a bloodbath if the US troops leave, or even draw down. This is just Bush's attempt at dealing with McCain's statement that we could be in Iraq for "another 100 years".

http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-fg-rice22-2008aug22,0,4681896.story

Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who met with Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri Maliki in Baghdad's fortress-like Green Zone, downplayed expectations that approval of an agreement was imminent.

"We'll have agreement when we have agreement," Rice told reporters, addressing speculation that a deal was near.

Rice and Maliki huddled for 2 1/2 hours, trying to iron out differences in the pact, which would govern the presence of U.S. forces here after their United Nations mandate expires in December.

Iraq's foreign minister warned that Iraqi politicians must still approve any deal, cautioning that previous drafts had been touted as complete, only for one side or the other to find fault.


Laslo

I can't beleive you still buy in to the stuff the Bush administration puts out. If any thing, Iraq has proved them wrong on so many levels.

But what seriously amazes me is that some people take it all with a grain of salt and move on to the next "talking point" / "reason of the week" we are in Iraq. The reason I mentioned the old Vets was because many of them were baffeled when we pulled back in Afghanistan without finishing the job.

You would look much more "up on the Intel" if you paid more attention to "Nuclear Proliferation”

oldtiffie
08-30-2008, 09:15 PM
The US Military "DD Form-214" has been mentioned in passing without saying or showing what it is.


To that end, this Wikipedia item might assist:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DD_Form_214


Yes Ol.dtiffie that is what it is


Glad to help another Veteran Joe.

I think the Veteran community would be more appreciative if the "care" was more directed to Veterans who are still alive - sort of - rather than focusing entirely on the "body-bag" aspect of it all.

Some of the Veterans - and families - are just as "destroyed" as some that were KIA.

I am NOT detracting in any way from the effort by and debt due to those KIA.

Its just that in these "point-scoring" dick-slapping "discussions"?? the survivors (that's what Veterans are) are as neglected as the injured in road and industrial/occupational accidents are.

It almost equates those that were KIA as "road-kill". It almost seems that some think that all Service people want to go in the first place - let alone repeat it. But whether they want to or not, or whether it affects them or their families or not - they "Go".

They are people - not just statistics or non-human automatons - just as those who are about to "Go" for the first time and those that will follow them.

What do you think that some Service people will think if they read this sort of stuff and see the attitude of some who are "safe" and don't have to do the job that Service people do.

I'd suggest that the thread return to "politics and policy".

lazlo
08-30-2008, 09:18 PM
I can't beleive you still buy in to the stuff the Bush administration puts out. If any thing, Iraq has proved them wrong on so many levels.

Joe, I think you may be mis-reading my post. I don't believe a word that comes out of Bush's mouth anymore, even though I voted for him for his first term.

As an aside, I also felt vindicated when Bush had the CIA, Special Forces, and Rangers invade Afghanistan, kick Al Qaeda's ass, and combing the caves on the Pakistan border for Osama. But then I was surprised, and terribly disappointed when he suddenly pulled all the troops out of Afghanistan and sent them chasing their tails in Iraq. Before the soldiers were even loaded on the C5's, fundamentalists from all over the Muslim world were already streaming into Afghanistan to rebuild Al Qaeda.

For the first several weeks of Afghanistan, the message was clear: don't f*#ck with the Americans (re: 9/11). But now, we're just Darth Vader's Storm Troopers: hated by the whole world, and the source of inspiration for a million new suicide bombers...


You would look much more "up on the Intel" if you paid more attention to "Nuclear Proliferation”

You lost me there Joe. It sound like you're referring to Iran. Are you implying that Bush wants to draw-down the US forces in Iraq so we can invade Iran?

Evan
08-30-2008, 09:19 PM
Rice and Maliki huddled for 2 1/2 hours, trying to iron out differences in the pact, which would govern the presence of U.S. forces here after their United Nations mandate expires in December.


I wonder if it is possible for a woman to negotiate anything with them? This is not to cast any doubt on Rice's abilities, only the status of women in general in the Muslim countries.

I am reminded of a quote from the Little Green Book of the radical imam Ayatollah Homenei of the 80's.

"Woman is man's field and a man may plow his field whenever he chooses".

wierdscience
08-30-2008, 09:55 PM
A lot of Vets are pretty pissed off at McCain for referring to his service record every time he can't answer a question

What a disgrace to all those left behind. And especially disgraceful of you because I sincerly suspect you don't have a service record to hide behind

You know J. Leno actually asked McCain "How many houses do you actually have? and McCain's answer was some thing about Hanoi Hilton.

Point is and always was don't go to war on a trumpt up lie for the profit of a few. Don't ask Americans to make the supreme sacrafice so a handful of Defense contractors can rake in profits

I respect your service,just not your attitude.You critisie "Iraq war armchair quaterbacks" well I am asking an Armchair President what he would do?

None of the war critics ever have an answer four years running.

As for my service record,I tried to inlist after highschool only to not pass the physical,low BP and heart murmor and out the door I went.I still to this day serve my nation however,just not in uniform.There are tons of ways to help vets and active duty personel many involve simple things like rides to rehab and paying bills.

And this Haliburton crock of s--- is getting old.-

Cheney was chairman and chief executive officer of Halliburton from 1995 to 2000. He has been accused of providing work to KBR under contingency contracts to financially benefit himself and his business associates.

However, the Army contract which has been so controversial — LOGCAP — has, since its inception, been issued under competitive solicitations; of the three LOGCAP contracts, KBR won the first, DynCorp the second, KBR the third, and also the current one, dubbed "LOGCAP IV". LOGCAP is a contingency-based contract which is invoked at the convenience of the US Army as needed; the Task Orders under the contract are not competitively bid as the overall contract is.

Although DynCorp had won LOGCAP II in 1994,[18] Clinton instead chose KBR, and thus the Balkans Support Contract was created for and awarded to KBR in February 1999.[19] Even though the LOGCAP program is specifically for contingency operations such as the Balkans, there was little media coverage about KBR picking up that contract; the Balkans work is sometimes mistakenly mentioned as being part of LOGCAP, however.[citation needed]

Most media controversy involves the LOGCAP III contract which KBR successfully, and competitively, bid for and won in 2001.[citation needed] While it is by far the most profitable of their contracts, the functions of that contract are often mixed with the RIO contract in which KBR was given in a no-bid process. RIO, or Restore Iraqi Oil, was awarded to KBR when the United States Department of Defense determined that KBR was "the only contractor that could satisfy the requirement for immediate execution of the plan".[20] As of September 2006, hearings are still being conducted into the RIO project over possible billing, management, and procurement violations.

wierdscience
08-30-2008, 10:06 PM
For the first several weeks of Afghanistan, the message was clear: don't f*#ck with the Americans (re: 9/11).


That wasn't the whole message,the rest was "two buildings= two countries".

War with Iran?Probably,Israel I don't think will stand by and let them gain nukes the only think stopping them from attacking them now is figuring out how bloody they will get at the hands of their Hezbo neighbors.

My question is if we end up with Obama will he invade Pakistan to get Osama,or will he do nothing,or will he saber rattle after the next attack on US soil?

JoeFin
08-30-2008, 10:09 PM
Glad to help another Veteran Joe.

I think the Veteran community would be more appreciative if the "care" was more directed to Veterans who are still alive - sort of - rather than focusing entirely on the "body-bag" aspect of it all.

Kind of opening up another old wound there Oldtiffie as I had this discussion with the Director of CalVet and one of his aids.

More or less I verbally ambushed the guy who later proved to be true hero for Vets

The long and short of it is Body Armor has proven to be a double edged sword. The Vet homes are scrambling to improve their facilities to handle all the amputees and multiple amputees. To be honest the Bush administration came up with the cash to renovate several buildings for this purpose. But as of yet “no plans” to fund the long term care.

Like the guy told me, “the families and wives will hang in there for a couple of years before they give up – And that is when we got to be there for them”

What happens then remains to be seen. So far only a couple have arrived.

But as of this time, under the Bush administration’s policies, they have fired the doctor, ½ of the nurses, and closed the small hospital on site. Those services have been outsourced. Even thou everyone pays to be there, the meal allotment is less then the State pays to feed prison inmates.

lazlo
08-30-2008, 10:32 PM
That wasn't the whole message,the rest was "two buildings= two countries".

I don't buy that Wierd, and according to the opinion polls, most Americans don't. Iraq had nothing to do with 911, which was also the conclusion of numerous bipartisan government investigations, including those by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (2004 and 2006), the 9/11 Commission.


My question is if we end up with Obama will he invade Pakistan to get Osama,or will he do nothing,or will he saber rattle after the next attack on US soil?

Neither Obama or McCain would be stupid enough to invade Pakistan. They have a well-trained, well-equipped army that is larger than ours (619,000 active duty army and 528,000 reserves), as well as at least a half dozen viable nukes. The Iraqi Republican Guard, by contrast, consisted of 50,000 - 60,000 men at the on-set of Desert Storm II.

wierdscience
08-30-2008, 10:45 PM
I don't buy that Wierd, and according to the opinion polls, most Americans don't. Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 911, which was also the conclusion of numerous bipartisan government investigations, including those by the Senate Select Committee on Intelligence (2004 and 2006), the 9/11 Commission.

It's especially amusing to suggest that there were ties between Bin Laden/Al Queda and Saddam's government, since Al Queda and Osama's followers are Sunni, and Saddam was Shiite.

As you surely know, Bin Laden and his followers advocate the murder of Shiites as a duty and consider them infidels.



Neither Obama or McCain would be stupid enough to invade Pakistan. They have a well-trained, well-equipped army that is larger than ours (619,000 active duty army and 528,000 reserves), as well as at least a half dozen viable nukes. The Iraqi Republican Guard, by contrast, consisted of 50,000 - 60,000 men at the on-set of Desert Storm II.

You missed it,the message wasn't to Al quieda,it was to the Muslim nations in the region.The thing they fear most is a functioning democracy especially Iran.

Pakistan is an unstable country with several viable nukes that don't need to fall into the wrong hands.Whoever is president had better be ready to make a grab.Help in Pakistan,think India.If the Pakistan government destabilizes India will intervene.

At some point in time we will have to resort to cross boarder action in Pakistan.Al quieda would not be a problem if they didn't have the option of a friendly boarder region to hide behind.

lazlo
08-30-2008, 11:03 PM
Pakistan is an unstable country with several viable nukes that don't need to fall into the wrong hands.Whoever is president had better be ready to make a grab.Help in Pakistan,think India.If the Pakistan government destabilizes India will intervene.

Agreed -- now that Musharraf (our Man in the Pakistan government) is gone, Pakistan is a nightmare. And like you say, Pakistan and India, both with considerable nuke arsenals, are mortal enemies.

So we have the Iran with a burgeoning nuclear arsenal in the Middle, Pakistan with a well-equipped nuclear arsenal on the East, and the Iraq quagmire on the West. Oh, and Turkey (another nuclear power) wants Kurdistan. Could it possibly be any worse? :mad:

Forrest Addy
08-30-2008, 11:47 PM
Fitness for office or anything else is a hinges on the competence of the seeker. A political campaign is an extended job application. McCain is an honered vet, a POW who survived 6 years of the worst his captors could inflict upon him. He's an able legislator, and so on. He has a few skeletons in his closet as we all do. He's a better man than I no matter how many house he owns. I'm a moderate Democrat but I can see these vitrues in McCain though I won't vote for him.

Would he make a better President? I'm sure his miltary experiece has changed and matured him, altered his priorities and perspectives but I sincerely doubt if he would be a better President solely as a result of his miitary career. They are two separate things.

I'm a pretty good machinist and was once a middling actor and singer but I don't think I could have ever had a career in sales, economics, interior decorating, dancer, professional athlete, what have you. Expertise or experience in one thing doesn't mean competence of any sort in another.

I have a lot of veteren friends ranging from WW II to Iraq. None of them so far have shown conspicuous wisdom as a result of their military careers. They are mostly just folks with capabilities, virtues, senses of duty, citizenship etc all over the map; in other words: just odinary folks. They cannot be characterized as having special qualities as a result of being in the military EXCEPT for the skills and experience they gained there. One was a half baked shade tree mechanic before he went off to war and he came back to be a half baked shade tree mechanic. One was working towards a college degree when he was drafted. He came back from VietNam to complete it and taught high school for 33 years and retired. And so on" all over the map.

I'm all for GI bill legislation sending returning combat vets to school, providing them with get-started loans, etc. I think that disabled vets should get assistance in proportion to their disabilities and they should get that assistance without a lot of BS and paperwork. We owe it to them. As for citizenship, a vet is just another voter having no more or less rights than anyother citizen. I know some sagacious vets and I know vets that are damn fools. Vet can be everything in between. No amount of sentimental claptrap will change their characters.

Whenever I hear of vets complaining as though their experience in the military makes them a cut above other citizens I want to barf. They are citizens and our system of government is based on one vote per citizen.

We all owe vets respect and gratitude for their time in mortal danger but as soon as they start "I'm a vet and you owe me" I think BS. They're looking for something for nothing. Want respect? Continue to earn it.

99% of vets want only their rights and a chance to compete in the rat-race and raise a family. To them I giive my heartfelt thanks. The 1% of whiners who suggest their military service makes them an elite sully the heroism and sacrifices made by their comrades in arms. So you vets who look down on non-vet citizens: please look again at your oath to preserve and defend the Constitution. We are all citizens here each no greater or lesser than any other in the voting booth.

So those vets who thinks their military service as somehow makes them a better citizen than the rest of us think again. One reason they went into the military is to preserve the very freedoms a few are are trying to sequester for themselves. The most vociferous are pandering and propagandizing. The demogogues that bestir them into these un-American sentiments are thinking only of themselves. They are using them as tools the entrench themselves into greater power. They should grow up and be thinking citizens. The diversity of political thought here in the Land of the Brave and the Home of the Free is the source of our strength and endurance.

oldtiffie
08-31-2008, 12:11 AM
It seems to be a war of attrition - as many are and were - it is a matter of who has the resources and will to "see it out".

There are no "winners" as the "winner" is the one who lasts longest and/or loses least.

This may be a more modern perhaps social and military version of the "Death by a Thousand Cuts" or the "White Man's Grave".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Death_of_a_thousand_cuts

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/kenanderson/histemp/whitemansgrave.html

As to whether it has yet to start or has started and if started, how long it has to go may be points of conjecture.

Insurgencies are notoriously hard to "win" or "put down".

One man's insurgent is another man's patriot - it depends on whose side they are on.

Good ?? examples of where "insurgencies" are or were are: Asia, Africa, Eastern Europe, The Russias and Arabia - and others - have been doing this for centuries and millenia. They have it down to a fine art.

The Brits (Afghanistan, Africa, Malaya etc.), Napoleon (Russia), the French (Indo-China and Africa) and Russia in Afghanistan and a lot of others all preceded Vietnam.

Evan
08-31-2008, 12:38 AM
The primary qualification for most politicians is the one that is often lacking. A politician needs to be a capable manager of people. Not a manipulator, which many are, but a real manager. This is most important for the office of president as it is impossible for one person to do the job alone. Like all truly good managers they must know how and when to delegate authority. I'm afraid I disagree with Forrest on that point as a military career as a line officer is excellent training in how to manage people and delegate authority.

Secondly, experience as a lawyer is a strong qualification. It is the job of politicians to make laws, first and foremost. Without law school education in your background it will be very much more difficult to write good legal documents that clearly spell out what is intended as the outcome of the legislation. The interpretation of laws depends absolutely on the precise wording of every sentence, phrase, paragraph and individual word to a degree that makes ordinary nitpicking look like total unconcern.

Then there is honesty and integrity. Well, no system is perfect...

Forrest Addy
08-31-2008, 01:02 AM
Evan wrote: "I'm afraid I disagree with Forrest on that point as a military career as a line officer is excellent training in how to manage people and delegate authority"

That wasn't my intent at all. Maybe I wasn't clear enough. I was referring to one hitch ex-enlisted military. Field and flag rank officers of long service are uniquely qualitied for high political office. They know about leadersip as well as management and delegation. I happen to think that Colin Powell would make a great President.

I''l think about it an amend my post. Thanks for the critique, Evan.

Your remarks anent lawyers are also compeling. What is amazing is not that lawyers are crooked but that given their power and special knowledge they don't own the country lock, stock, and barrel.

There's an old legal term "flyspecking". It refers to parsing a document so carefully that even a flyspeck is given weight.

oldtiffie
08-31-2008, 01:29 AM
I've had just on 40 years with the military - both in uniform and as a civilian employee.

I would not say that all are fit for politics or leadership other than in a military environment - which is as much about "getting on" and surviving the bureaucracy as anything else. There are as many excellent, poor and "in between" as in the general community.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bureaucracy

I would have thought that Corporate Lawyers, CEO's and CFO's from major corporations with experience with the Law and dealing with government and commerce at all levels both domestically and internationally would have been my choice. They have had to run huge involved businesses and budgets, show an on-going annual profit, make and stick to budgets and be held accountable to the share/stake-holders.

They would need to re remunerated accordingly.

I don't hold career politicians and party apparachnicks, functionaries and 'time-servers" in high regard at all as they are too concerned for themselves and the "machine men" who put them where they are - and the "favours" they (seek and) "owe" to "vested interests" and "pressure groups".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apparatchik

Dawai
08-31-2008, 02:42 AM
http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_04/BaracKOsamaAP_468x789.jpg


'Shameful': Obama slammed Clinton for 'circulating' pictures of him dressed as a Muslim


Funny how da truth is still the truth even if it hurts.. Born a Muslim, Barack HUSSIEN Obama, fathered by a muslim, attends and gains spiritual knowledge from a church that spouts "anti-whitie" rhetoric, supports Louis Farrakan, ya know the one who hates Jews, says white people never developed past the ape man. That Reverend Wright, if it was reversed and them things said by a white man, he'd be stoned, jailed and convicted.

Remember the speech, I can no more give up my spiritual advisor "reverend Wright" anymore than I can give up my White grandmother.. there... then... He gave up his preacher later.. said he chastised him for the words he backed only weeks before. FOR PUBLIC OPINION

WHO are these people who sponsored this boob for our Presidential job?

Do you believe the words coming out of his mouth, or history and past actions of him and his wife? A fool believes words without looking into history.

The going topic is "ANTICHRIST" Obama.

As long as one radical muslim lives, Christianity or normality/non-Muslims can not exist without threat. A wolf in sheeps clothing is nothing new, trojan horse, or sleeper cell. Used to great advantage against the Germans in WW2, used in Roman times.

chief
08-31-2008, 03:17 AM
Dave,
Your last post will get you branded as a white racist klan member. You must learn to embrace the myth of diversity, submit to the cult of islam and offer a ride the the illegal alien who took your job.
Glad to see that someone understands the threat, far too many morons today believe the BS spewed out by CNN and the other liberal media outlets.
If elected Hussein Obama will turn US foreign affairs over to the UN,economic policy to the world bank and the WTO.

Evan
08-31-2008, 03:21 AM
I think that is out of line David. There is a great difference between the radical Fundamentalist Islamic movement and modern day Muslims. The modern believers have more in common with the Christian religion than you may know.



A Muslim (Arabic: مسلم‎) is an adherent of the religion of Islam. The feminine form is Muslimah[1] (Arabic: مسلمة‎). Literally, the word means "one who submits (to God)". Muslim is the participle of the same verb of which Islām is the infinitive.[2] Muslims believe that there is only one God, translated in Arabic as Allāh. Muslims believe that Islam existed long before Muhammad and that the religion had evolved with time from the time of Adam until the time of Muhammad and was completed with the revelation of verse 3 of Surah al-Maeda:

This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.

The Qur'an describes many Biblical prophets and messengers as Muslim: Adam, Noah (Arabic: Nuh), Moses (Arabic: Mūsā) and Jesus (Arabic: ˤĪsā) and his apostles. The Qur'ān states that these men were Muslims because they submitted to God, preached his message and upheld his values. Thus, in Surah 3:52 of the Qur'ān, Jesus’ disciples tell Jesus, "We believe in God; and you be our witness that we submit and obey (wa ashahadu bil-muslimūna)."



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim

chief
08-31-2008, 03:26 AM
Evan,
Here's a word for you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dhimmi

Evan
08-31-2008, 03:40 AM
I'm not going to debate religion with you or anybody else. Just keep in mind that the Muslims of the past had no particular monopoly on intolerance of other religions.

gnm109
08-31-2008, 03:55 AM
I'll just say first that I'm no expert on religion. I have heard that when a person is born into a muslim family with a muslim father that they are henceforth considered to be a muslim. I guess that, in some cultures at least, a person can change their religion later in life and that's apparently what Obama claims to have done.

It is ironic that so soon after 9-11 we get a candidate whose religion is either muslim or Christian and who is surrounded with such controversy. His middle name being Hussein hasn't helped the issue either.

The issue has apparently been decided in Maylasia yet the controversy rages on in the U.S.

http://www.asiasentinel.com/index.php?Itemid=34&id=515&option=com_content&task=view

oldtiffie
08-31-2008, 05:10 AM
I sure am glad that we don't have this level of fear in OZ.

The US does not have a country with a significant Muslim population with 1,000's of miles.

The country with the biggest Muslim population is Indonesia - which is right next door (North) to OZ.

Index this list by country or region as see for yourself:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muslim_population

Here it is - in red - just north of Australia.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesia

We have had our differences with Indonesia - and in some respects - still do.

We have our cultural and political differences too, but by and large we get on pretty well.

Most of South-East Asia is to our north and is just about all Muslim. But we get on OK with them as well.

We have a Muslim population of 1.7% - ie 340,000 out of 20.4 million. We have a wide diversity of religions, cultures and nationalities and are very cosmopolitan and get on pretty well. There are the inevitable differences between ethnic groups - nothing too serious too often.

If we have any problems you can bet that the "Professional Protesters", "Rent-a-Crowds", trouble-makers, "Usual Suspects" and our own brands of "red-neck" and xenophobics will be in there.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Xenophobia

Most of us here just "live and let live".

JoeFin
08-31-2008, 08:54 AM
Funny how da truth is still the truth even if it hurts.. Born a Muslim, Barack HUSSIEN Obama, fathered by a muslim, attends and gains spiritual knowledge from a church that spouts "anti-whitie" rhetoric

Did Obama’s mother convert to Muslim as well? Or did she remain a Christian? I do remember there was quite a flap over Obama’s Christian minister. It all seems to be more of Rush’s spew Whom we know for a fact used and bought drugs by the 1000s after being 4F-ed from the service for an anal cyst.

I would have thought people would be ready to deal with more factual content in their decision making process. I mean it doesn’t take genius material to realize we entered into Iraq under false pretenses. Even both Dick Cheney and George Bush have admitted publicly there were no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Given the fact N.Korea has developed Nuclear Weapons and a delivery system for them during the last 7 years, Iran has started a program of enriching uranium, (which by most estimates is 6 – 8 years out from an actual nuclear device) and by reports the government of Pakistan is in flux and harboring Osama Bin Luadin and Al Quiada.

But what is also of equal importance is the trend by China to mimic Osama Bin Luadin means of winning over public support.

Bin Luadin, prior to the advent of direct hostilities against the US went into poor impoverished countries and built hospitals and schools. In a country where the local hospital was a mud brick building with a thatched roof, the facilities he built were a welcome addition and garnered him great support.

Now China (using the money they have been received as a result of 1 sided trade policies) is picking up where Bin Laudin left off, building the hospitals and schools all over Asia minor and Africa, winning over broad support for their ideology.

You have to remember 1 thing – Bonny and Clyde were not the sharpest tools in the shed. It was after folks watching up to 200 farm foreclosures per week due to the recession and drought. No one was going to turn them in. Right up until they shot that cop did people stop cheering them on for giving the banks a little pay back.

Iraq was a stupid error in governance brought on by Defense Contractors and their lobbyist. Even Poppy Bush purposely did not enter into Baghdad on sound advice given him by the CIA, State Dept., and his Generals.

I don’t see any advantage in continuing a mistake that by all aspects is weakening America and our position in the world, by the day

JoeFin

Evan
08-31-2008, 09:30 AM
It doesn't just weaken the US. It also weakens Canada as anything that affects the US economy also affects the Candian economy. The US is our biggest customer and Canada is already feeling the squeeze of reduced American buying. Vehicle assembly plants in the east are closing and demand for lumber here is greatly reduced as housing starts fall off dramatically. This has a direct impact on my wife and I as the business she manages is entirely dependent on the sawmill industry. Mills have been closing weekly in Western Canada and many of them will probably not reopen even if the market improves. They won't be able to find labor as the people laid off are moving to Alberta. We have a record number of houses for sale here. People are leaving town as fast as they can find jobs elsewhere.

Whatever you want to blame it on the foundering US economy has victims outside the US. The US economy does not operate in isolation.

JoeFin
08-31-2008, 09:59 AM
It doesn't just weaken the US. It also weakens Canada as anything that affects the US economy also affects the Candian economy.

Well that is precisely what angers me so much about those who never served parroting rumor and innuendo served up by the likes of that Drug Addled Gas Bag – Rush LimpBalls.

Economic Warfare is as real as Nuclear Warfare. You can topple governments, create insurgencies, isolate countries, and leverage governments through economic means. Bush is agreeing to the “Time Table to Withdraw from Iraq” because the Iraqi Government is signing oil contracts with China. – Game Over!

So all those “Banging the Drum” for “I’ll stay in Iraq for the next 100 years if I have to” are seriously drinking too much Kool Aid

Dawai
08-31-2008, 10:09 AM
Your last post will get you branded as a white racist klan member. You must learn to embrace the myth of diversity, submit to the cult of islam and offer a ride the the illegal alien who took your job.
OKAY, let's talk about a new turn that may take place..

IN COLLEGES, where I worked as a electrician.. A young girl walking the hall.. a black boy approaches her, askes her out.. SHE refuses.. HE goes into a tirade about her being a racist.. SHE won't go out with him so it must be racisim.. SO, she goes out with him against her first instinct that she does not like him, not because of his color, but his attitude and arrogant nature.. HE ACCOMPLISHED HIS TASK, used the race card.. White boys begging for a date from the same girl didn't stand a chance huh?

I've heard the race card twice in the Obama campaign.. expect it more.. A trump card..

REMEMBER, I am a MUTT.. 50% cherokee indian, 50% Scottish, 50% German.. I didn't fit in anywhere growing up.. in that aspect I understand Obama being %50 black 50% white.. HE has chosen to be black, not white.. Him tolerating the Rev. Wright sermons hating whitie denotes his position clearly. I can not be a member of the Klan, unless I lie.. AS others do here locally.. THE Chatsworth Treasurer was quite amazed when a black man showed up on his porch wanting to see his long lost cousin.. He ran him off with a gun, till he found out he was wealthy.. He lived up to his bloodline, he stole money so I was told.. AS a tattoo artist.. I have had to associate with all types. I know plenty of people from different aspects of society.

Morons call names when they can't come up with any intelligent response.. many barfights come up like that, loud, then violent reaction.. Out of stupidity and ignorance..

My old buddy who was celled with a green klan member for 18 years.. mostly.. he called him a klu klux klown.. his first six months before he even knew what was going on he was giving interviews with the media.. how ignorant..

In prison, survival is the game, You'd join whoever could keep your bum cherry.. Aryan Nations or whoever..

AND THE TRUTH, thou not popular sometimes is still the truth..

A.K. Boomer
08-31-2008, 10:51 AM
Dave,
Glad to see that someone understands the threat



:rolleyes: The real threat? Just what is the "real threat" anyways?

Could it have been about a dozen and a half thugs that stuffed a couple of planes into a building or two --- a dozen and a half thugs that did something and in the reaction and aftermath made the most powerful nation on the planet "jump" so high in response that it set the precedence for future generations of said thugs - due mostly to just how powerful WE'VE made them in OUR reactions?
OR
Did we set the precedence for future generations of them not because of how high we jumped as much as the misguided direction that we "jumped" to?
Youv got to admit, they really did have it together No? Or was it we made them look like they did? And Coffer talks about a "potential" "boob" in office --------- WHAT?
You realize the lives lost? the cost? You cant predict this kind of cost, this kind of cost will be going on 70 years from now,,, The good hearted lions that we put on the line? for what? Parents are losing their only child, You simply dont mess up in this area, You make GODAMN sure you have your act together, these people are not pawns, these people are the most precious thing we have ----------------- and another country and its peoples ripped to shreds -- there is no excuse for this kind of a miscalculation, But yet here we are, the oldest mistake in the book and history once again repeats itself ---- One of these days we will "cry wolf" and there will be nobody to answer the call, Not even our own...
Meanwhile -- some simple minded idiot stands in front of the opening of his cave in Afghanistan almost looking "genius" with a banner strung across the top and reading in big bold letters "Mission Accomplished"...................

Quick re-cap just to get back to the reality of the matter, Once again -- all this reaction (and misguided reaction) Not because of some huge powerful country -- but because of a few thugs, Have any idea how many thugs are out there? Dont feel bad - neither do I - buts its not a good feeling to know that whatever it was its ten fold now, I think we need to keep our guard up at home -- the idea of fighting them "over there" sounds good at first -- but I heard that they know how to travel, I think thats what got us into trouble in the first place:o

Dawai
08-31-2008, 11:01 AM
AK:

There are only BOOBS on the ticket..

Enuff said.. I am not happy about it.. I just don't like dishonesty.

NONE are good enough in my book. You choose lesser of evils for your own knowledge..

A.K. Boomer
08-31-2008, 12:22 PM
I agree --- How can this be "the creme of the crop"?
How?

Nuther sad fact is one of the prerequisites for the job is actually dishonesty, You dont get anywhere near that position without it...

dp
08-31-2008, 12:57 PM
Gets my vote:

http://www.palmerelks.org/images/wwp-photo2.jpg

The context:
http://www.palmerelks.org/wwp.htm

Evan
08-31-2008, 01:02 PM
I was just reading that the use of body armor is producing far greater numbers of multiple amputees than used to be seen in combat. Before body armor they would have been dead.

dp
08-31-2008, 01:12 PM
I was just reading that the use of body armor is producing far greater numbers of multiple amputees than used to be seen in combat. Before body armor they would have been dead.

The same metric was the result of using medivac helicopters vs jeeps as in WWII. Health care generally has been blamed for long miserable lives sustained at taxpayer expense. The ultimate paradox is the former smoker that lives to antiquity, dragging an OB around, unable to enjoy life, and burning health care dollars like a drunk sailor. The rule of unintended consequences is inviolate.

A.K. Boomer
08-31-2008, 02:30 PM
At first she looks appealing, I'll give you that, But --- With McCain already having had cancer, and many whom consider him to be at deaths doorstep, and some even arguing that the man has already died and is being followed around by a bunch of people with sticks and strings and such that are actually controlling his movements (seriously ever notice that there is always some kind of stage with curtains behind him?) And with a vast amount of internet guessing and even perhaps a new game show called "whats inside McCains left cheek" --- at the very least most think that its in favor that he will "shell out a connecting rod bearing" while in office, so that means we cannot look at just "beauty" to get us through (Damn), therefore we are forced to look at intelligence and granted she has already proven herself by governing over a town of 8,500 (not quite as big as mine but still)
In all fairness I have to point out what kind of motorcycle she's using as a prop ---- I rest my case beyond a shadow of a doubt...

Not only that but whats up with the normal nice right leg (her right) and then the hillary one? Im a leg guy and thats important to me...

Evan
08-31-2008, 03:25 PM
Be careful what you wish for. Women that aspire to power tend to have more testosterone than men. Margret (Iron Lady) Thatcher and Indira Ghandi come to mind.

dp
08-31-2008, 04:24 PM
Be careful what you wish for. Women that aspire to power tend to have more testosterone than men. Margret (Iron Lady) Thatcher and Indira Ghandi come to mind.

And her husband is, in part, Yupik Eskimo, so apparently she and her family are on topic here :D

TGTool
08-31-2008, 05:18 PM
Margret (Iron Lady) Thatcher

Attila the Hen?

chief
08-31-2008, 07:23 PM
AK,
The islamic threat is real whether you want to believe it or not and the correct response is to fight them over there. You need to think about the cost will be 70 years from now if we do nothing. How about the hidden costs
of Vietnam in the aftermath of our pull out, 2 million dead in Cambodia and 1 million in Vietnam killed or imprisoned.
Killing is wrong but world is an evil place and tyrants only understand force.
I fought in 2 wars and have plenty of blood on my hands, I don't regret any of it. I hate to think where we would be if we stood by and did nothing.

Evan
08-31-2008, 07:31 PM
Chief, you cannot beat an enemy in conventional warfare on his own ground if he has greater numbers of people ready and willing to die to get your troops. That lesson has been learned and forgotten over and over. Not only can you not identify your enemy, he has no trouble at all identifying his enemy. That advantage alone is insurmountable. You don't know where he is. He knows where you are. You don't know how he is armed. He knows how you are. You don't know his numbers. He knows yours. You have no advantages, he has all of them. Worst of all he is convinced he is right. So are many of your troops.

Dawai
08-31-2008, 07:39 PM
THEN, fact of personal conviction in your own homeland.. PRIDE..

The Assyrians used to move it's conquered people to overcome this. The people of the middle east were transplanted all over the place.

A person willing to strap a bomb on their back and go die for their country is worth several fine trained soldiers. Hard to combat that kinda of determination. One can take down many.. Kinda like a kamakazi pilot. A viking beserker?

JoeFin
08-31-2008, 07:40 PM
AK,
The islamic threat is real whether you want to believe it or not and the correct response is to fight them over there.

I fought in 2 wars and have plenty of blood on my hands.

The Islamic threats (as you call it) are a group of fractional Religious sects that have been warring between each other for 1000s of years.

Yes we should have paraded Osama’s head on a stick down the streets of Kabul so that no one else ever thought they would have been able to get away with that kind of crap. Every one here has been saying we NEVER should have taken our eye off the ball in Afghanistan.

Secondly – we question the wisdom of these 1 sided “Free Trade” deals handed to China and selling US Debt to China. Both weaken and compromise the US.


A high-ranking Chinese economist has put his nation's cards on the table in the global financial poker game by effectively telling the US to fix Freddie and Fannie … or else.

"A failure of US mortgage finance companies Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac could be a catastrophe for the global financial system", Yu Yongding, a former adviser to China's central bank, says.

"If the US government allows Fannie and Freddie to fail and international investors are not compensated adequately, the consequences will be catastrophic," Yu said in e-mailed answers to Bloomberg. "If it is not the end of the world, it is the end of the current international financial system."

http://business.smh.com.au/business/china-goes-the-big-squeeze-20080829-45q8.html

Since you present yourself as a veteran of Vietnam I’m sure you can appreciate our concern in allowing China to dictate US policy

JoeFin

Evan
08-31-2008, 07:44 PM
Read this and compare it to what is going on in Iraq. They still teach this at West Point. It was written 2,600 years ago.

II. WAGING WAR


1. Sun Tzu said: In the operations of war,
where there are in the field a thousand swift chariots,
as many heavy chariots, and a hundred thousand
mail-clad soldiers, with provisions enough to carry them
a thousand li, the expenditure at home and at the front,
including entertainment of guests, small items such as
glue and paint, and sums spent on chariots and armor,
will reach the total of a thousand ounces of silver per day.
Such is the cost of raising an army of 100,000 men.

2. When you engage in actual fighting, if victory
is long in coming, then men's weapons will grow dull and
their ardor will be damped. If you lay siege to a town,
you will exhaust your strength.

3. Again, if the campaign is protracted, the resources
of the State will not be equal to the strain.

4. Now, when your weapons are dulled, your ardor damped,
your strength exhausted and your treasure spent,
other chieftains will spring up to take advantage
of your extremity. Then no man, however wise,
will be able to avert the consequences that must ensue.

5. Thus, though we have heard of stupid haste in war,
cleverness has never been seen associated with long delays.

6. There is no instance of a country having benefited
from prolonged warfare.

7. It is only one who is thoroughly acquainted
with the evils of war that can thoroughly understand
the profitable way of carrying it on.

8. The skillful soldier does not raise a second levy,
neither are his supply-wagons loaded more than twice.

9. Bring war material with you from home, but forage
on the enemy. Thus the army will have food enough
for its needs.

10. Poverty of the State exchequer causes an army
to be maintained by contributions from a distance.
Contributing to maintain an army at a distance causes
the people to be impoverished.


From "The Art of War" by Sun Tzu


More here: http://www.chinapage.com/sunzi-e.html

Weston Bye
08-31-2008, 08:07 PM
The popular myth is that we lost in Viet Nam. In '73 when I left there, The VC were rubbed out, the NVA was pushed back north of the DMZ, the American prisoners were released from the Hanoi Hilton, among them John McCain and another, Al Agnew from my squadron, and there were perhaps only a couple thousand American troops left on the ground in the South.

In '75 when the NVA attacked, well placed bombs from Navy and Air Force planes would have stopped, indeed obliterated, the NVA column that rolled across the DMZ and through to Siagon. Instead, the U.S. congress stood by and did nothing.

We didn't loose - we gave it away.

And those who were our "friends" suffered, just as our "friends" in Iraq suffered after we didn't finish the job in the First Gulf War, as will our "friends" suffer if we don't end the current situation correctly.

The lesson will be: NEVER trust the U.S.

Viet Nam was almost worth it: We held the line against Soviet Communist expansion to a standstill and held on until the Soviets were bankrupt and collapsed. We could have ended it sooner if our politicians had had some backbone. (Rules of engagement? Bah! Do your enemy no small injury.)

Now we see political correctness giving in to demands of radical clerics who support our terrorist enemies. Appeasement? We know where that leads. Again I say bah!

Dawai
08-31-2008, 08:45 PM
Hi Wes:


well placed bombs from Navy and Air Force planes

Sure worked on Omar Kadaffii?? We sure didn't hear much from him after his house was bombed huh??

Mad Scientist
08-31-2008, 08:46 PM
There is a great difference between the radical Fundamentalist Islamic movement and modern day Muslims. The modern believers have more in common with the Christian religion than you may know.


I would not be to sure about that. If you take the time to study it in some depth it quickly becomes apparent that Islam is anything but a peaceful religion. Its goal is to convert the world to Islam and the use of force is sanctioned.


Qur’an 20:14 “Verily, I am Allah. No Ilah (God) may be worshiped but I. So serve you Me, and perform regular prostration prayer for My praise
Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Here is an example of tolerance Muslim style. First you are asked to become a Muslim. If you refuse you’re status is reduced to that of a slave. As such if you offend a Muslim it is their right and duty to kill you.

Now in all fairness many Muslims do not believe this way, but that is not what the Quran teaches them. The Quran considers these “peaceful” Muslims to be hypocrites, they are suppose to be out killing infidels, and thus a “good” Muslim has the right to kill them and take their possessions.
You don’t suppose that might have something to do with why we don’t hear much in the way of condemnation coming from the Muslim community when some act of terrorism is done in the name of Islam?

lazlo
08-31-2008, 08:48 PM
The popular myth is that we lost in Viet Nam. In '73 when I left there, The VC were rubbed out, the NVA was pushed back north of the DMZ, the American prisoners were released from the Hanoi Hilton, among them John McCain and another, Al Agnew from my squadron, and there were perhaps only a couple thousand American troops left on the ground in the South.

My Father did three tours in Viet Nam as a Huey pilot. To put things in perspective, there were 47,000 US soldiers killed in action, versus 1.1 million NVA/VC killed in action. Many of those 1.1 million were Chinese Army Regulars, but they're still part of the official body counts published by North Vietnam.

The problem is that the politicians tried to manage Vietnam as a limited "police action" and not a full-blown war, so we never allowed the military to fully engage North Vietnam.

Ironically, McNamara was the devil on Lyndon Johnson's shoulder, whispering in his ear that we could win the Vietnam conflict with precision bombing, and limit the number of boots on the ground.

Fast-forward 37 years, and Cheney is the devil on Bush's shoulder, whispering in his ear that War Presidents are remembered most in history.

Boy, ain't that the truth... :mad:


The islamic threat is real whether you want to believe it or not and the correct response is to fight them over there.

If we had even a hair-brained attempt at an occupation plan for Iraq after the invasion, we might have been OK. But after 5 years of gross incompetence managing the occupation and around 90,000 civilian deaths, we've managed to piss off every militant Islamist on the planet (as well as most of our allies). The threat of terrorism is much higher now than before the Iraq invasion, and now that our only ally in Pakistan has been ousted, there's a pretty serious threat that Al Qaeda will have access to nuclear weapons.

So now that we know that there weren't any WMD's, how did invading Iraq, who several bipartisan Congressional panels and the 911 commission said had nothing to do with 911, make us safer?

Dawai
08-31-2008, 08:52 PM
OKAY:

Lighten up.. Here's Achmed the terrorist..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jA_ABcohuZ8

Jingle bombs?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKa0vLqh5OQ

Evan
08-31-2008, 08:53 PM
I won't debate it. Read your Bible. I will note that you are interpreting that passage incorrectly. It's meant for those who do not believe in God.

lazlo
08-31-2008, 09:00 PM
Qur’an 9:5 “Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, harass them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war.”

Deuteronomy 13:6

If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which [is] as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which thou hast not known, thou, nor thy fathers;

[Namely], of the gods of the people which [are] round about you, nigh unto thee, or far off from thee, from the [one] end of the earth even unto the [other] end of the earth;

Thou shalt not consent unto him, nor hearken unto him; neither shall thine eye pity him, neither shalt thou spare, neither shalt thou conceal him:

But thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.

...and from the New Testament:

Luke 19:27

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.

Todd Tolhurst
08-31-2008, 09:04 PM
I would not be to sure about that. If you take the time to study it in some depth it quickly becomes apparent that Islam is anything but a peaceful religion. Its goal is to convert the world to Islam and the use of force is sanctioned.


Kinda like the Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition?

JoeFin
08-31-2008, 09:14 PM
The popular myth is that we lost in Viet Nam. In '73 when I left there, The VC were rubbed out, the NVA was pushed back north of the DMZ, the American prisoners were released from the Hanoi Hilton, among them John McCain and another, Al Agnew from my squadron, and there were perhaps only a couple thousand American troops left on the ground in the South.


Wes1

So if you were there in a fighter squadron as your post implies – then you above anyone else should know those weapons were manufactured in the Soviet Union, sent to China, and then funneled down the Ho Chi Men trail.

China was supporting No.Viet Nam

You should also know China and Russia have had troops at each other’s boarder since the mid 70s as well.

IF you still have friends in “High Places” amongst the military you should also be alarmed by the number of Generals asked to retire or those who summarily handed in the resignation because they KNEW the administration’s plan, and Rumsfeld’s micro-managing of the Iraq invasion were severely flawed.

Not to mention all those ex-military General/Traitors now working for Defense Contractors who broke out their old uniform from moth balls to appear on Night Line and every other news cast they could “Pimp” their military rank were bought and paid for by the Defense Contractor company they are employed by.

Like I said – the whole thing was manufactured to enrich Defense Contractors at the expense of America it self

The rest of your post is accurate and when we drew down the NVC were all but wiped out. I understand not wanting to pay for the same ground twice what I don't understand is giving it away

Weston Bye
08-31-2008, 09:17 PM
Kinda like the Crusades, or the Spanish Inquisition?

Yep. Not proud of that. Presumably, most of us have learned something since then.

JoeFin
08-31-2008, 09:23 PM
Chief, you cannot beat an enemy in conventional warfare on his own ground

I beg to differ - Germany 1945 would disagree with you.

Problem is we did not have to beat this so called "Enemy in Iraq" Actually there were no Al Quaida when we invaded, and Saddam had "No Connection" to the events of 911. But the rest of your post rings quite true with the events that transpired after the fall of Baghdad and the Al Quaida insurgents that flocked in there.

Sad part is Osama could have not found a better diversion to keep the USA busy while he regrouped and reformed his Al Quaida in Pakistan. Big problem now is the Pakistani Government is crumbling and VERY sympathetic towards Osama and Al Quaida - They also have a large nuclear arsenal

JoeFin

A.K. Boomer
08-31-2008, 09:27 PM
Chief, you cannot beat an enemy in conventional warfare on his own ground if he has greater numbers of people ready and willing to die to get your troops. That lesson has been learned and forgotten over and over. Not only can you not identify your enemy, he has no trouble at all identifying his enemy. That advantage alone is insurmountable. You don't know where he is. He knows where you are. You don't know how he is armed. He knows how you are. You don't know his numbers. He knows yours. You have no advantages, he has all of them. Worst of all he is convinced he is right. So are many of your troops.



And I also might add -- we have to abide (for the most part) by the "rules"
And they dont -- they can actually do anything imaginable -- and have,
Now, considering that they now occupy just about every corner of the globe - think it might be wise to batten down the hatches a little Chief, or should we keep trying to police the world and not only bleed ourselves dry (for when the "real Battle" ensues) But also keep building bitter relationships around the globe and then when it really does get real our fate will be sealed for sure...

So What do you do? You force yourself to think like a terrorist thats what.

Tighten up the borders --- if you dont have good intelligence then invest in some, What we could have done with just a portion of that fuqeing war money, fer cri sakes lookie Israel --- there actually surrounded and somehow manage to survive..
Once again, Look how this transpired - Thugs --- The first "gift" to the thugs was actually taking commercial flight training classes in our own backyard and getting away with it -- hindsight is 20/20 but it is also a great teacher, I mean whats more manageable - a blow of the whistle or a trillion dollars with a million dead people and your countries reputation down the tubes...
The second gift was when they pulled it off and the damage went WAY beyond their expectations -- even many of our experts couldnt put a handle on that one, No one knew how to do all the calculations of a fully loaded and fueled jet plane stuffed into the side of one of the WTC's at hundreds of MPH's...
The third gift was not only how high of a leap they made us jump but special thanks to GW how misguided that leap was ------- In fact - GW is the gift that keeps on giving, And as a matter of fact (if you were a terrorist) you would be absolutely nothing short of ecstatic about this entire "mission" as in how well it went was beyond your wildest imagination --- I mean hey - you get right down to it, a few thugs not only did some pretty heavy duty immediate damage --- they trumped that damage 100,000 fold in aftermath (with the help of a hillbilly) --- and dont forget disrupted the most powerful country on the planet but many would add effected much of the world also,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, now recruiting has not only become much easier - your own children want to go into the terrorist Bidness --- and why not? 27 virgins await them right?

Rule #1, You dont even attempt to police the world --- its not any one single body's job, wanna see some action out of the UN or maybe some countries that maybe we feel should have been there? let a little guy get bloody, no, not bloody --- obliterated -- off the map, then maybe whats good in the entire world can come together and work against the bad, thats what its going to take, and its not going to happen till this country steps down and lets it, Now -- do we want to take a step back with immense power reserve and do what we should have been doing all along? or should we weaken ourselves to the point of becoming the sacrificial lamb little guy...

Last but not least, (lessons in star trek)
Dont mess with the prime directive, and if your going to fight a shapeshifter you better really have your act together and do it by surprise... terrorists are shapeshifters.


Edit; Chief, Wes, all you catz that served, This board has many of you and Im honored to converse with you guys, if we do disagree please realize that opinions are like U know what, everybodys got one --------- And I thank you guys for the opportunity to learn and also the freedom i have to even be writing or breathing for that matter --- In many instances I see just how important it was to do what we had to do in the past, This situation I really feel is different -- and I believe it plays directly into their hands if we conduct "bidness as usual"...
Thanks to all for all youv done.

Weston Bye
08-31-2008, 09:36 PM
Wes1

So if you were there in a fighter squadron as your post implies – then you above anyone else should know those weapons were manufactured in the Soviet Union, sent to China, and then funneled down the Ho Chi Men trail.

China was supporting No.Viet Nam

You should also know China and Russia have had troops at each other’s boarder since the mid 70s as well.

IF you still have friends in “High Places” amongst the military you should also be alarmed by the number of Generals asked to retire or those who summarily handed in the resignation because they KNEW the administration’s plan, and Rumsfeld’s micro-managing of the Iraq invasion were severely flawed.

Not to mention all those ex-military General/Traitors now working for Defense Contractors who broke out their old uniform from moth balls to appear on Night Line and every other news cast they could “Pimp” their military rank were bought and paid for by the Defense Contractor company they are employed by.

Like I said – the whole thing was manufactured to enrich Defense Contractors at the expense of America it self

The rest of your post is accurate and when we drew down the NVC were all but wiped out. I understand not wanting to pay for the same ground twice what I don't understand is giving it away


Joe:
I was in a reconnaisance squadron - RVAH-13, repairing RA-5C Vigilantes on the Enterprise. These planes flew in before a strike and then immediately after - and were expected. Very hazardous.

I don't dispute your assertions, but wonder what the proper response to 911 should have been. Do nothing? Seems that that was the response to the first twin towers bombing, several embassy bombings, the USS Cole bombing, etc. Negotiate? Yeah, sure. Negotiation means compromise. What else shall we give up?

Perhaps our response to 911 was a spasm rather than a response, but now the job has to be finished correctly.

And then avoid foreign entanglements.

A.K. Boomer
08-31-2008, 09:51 PM
I would never ever say "dont do anything" Thats definitely not my take, but what I would say is its ok to take a deep breath, and while your doing that you get your intelligence together, and if its not good enough then you take the time to get it together, In fact - you get it so together that when you make your next move your absolutely sure of it --- what a sight that would have been for the world to see, can you imagine...

Do we want to play chess or checkers?

MickeyD
08-31-2008, 09:58 PM
Everyone talks about finishing the job, completing the job, don't let the deaths of our troops be in vain, and on and on. As long as there is an Iraqi who has lost a son, a daughter, a brother, a sister, or a parent due to the invasion, there will never be peace as long as we are there. Look at it this way. If the Russians or someone else invaded us, hung Bush as a war criminal, and pretty much screwed up everything that we had, we would be fighting them just as the Iraqis are fighting us. Mean, dirty, and suicidal. What do you want to do? Kill them all and colonize the country with Halliburton workers?

Dawai
08-31-2008, 10:51 PM
Mickey..

During first movie viewing Independence day.. When the white house blew up? the audience cheered.

I know that was just a movie, but it sets the tone of America.. Ready for Change..

What kinda of change I want to know before I step into it thou.

David

A.K. Boomer
08-31-2008, 11:06 PM
If the Russians or someone else invaded us, hung Bush as a war criminal, and pretty much screwed up everything that we had,



Dont know how to answer that --- im getting mixed signals from you:p

JoeFin
09-01-2008, 12:06 AM
Joe:

I don't dispute your assertions, but wonder what the proper response to 911 should have been.

OK I’ll say it a 3rd time. We could have done no better then to “Parade Osama Bin Laudin’s Head on a stick down the streets of Kabul in front of CNN and the whole world to see”

We could have had the War Lords we hired to do the actual job allowing the current administration plausible deniability to any culpability to the actual act. The world would renounce it, the terrorist would have had the fear of God put into them.

But that is neither here nor there. Truth was I was disturbed we went in as part of a coalition. We had full right to purse the aggressors after the Taliban refused to cooperate. I firmly believe the world would have been more then 100% behind us.

Problem was the Saudis (as part of the coalition) insisted the US have no more then 5000 boots on the ground in country. Why we choose to appease them at the time I’ll never know. We should have used sufficient numbers to accomplish the mission and screw them if they didn’t like it. 15 of 19 Hi-Jackers carried Saudi Passports.

We had the Men, we had the means, we had the justification – why we didn’t use them?

Quite a few analysts warned the Administration the significance of Osama thumbing his nose at the US. It has raised him to sort of a Prophet status in the Islamic faith.

He is patient, he is waiting, he will hit the US again.

Now just why do you think it is important to be in Iraq?

Mad Scientist
09-01-2008, 12:31 AM
I won't debate it. Read your Bible. I will note that you are interpreting that passage incorrectly. It's meant for those who do not believe in God.
Oh but I have read it and I can literally give you dozens of pages of similar quotes. How many times must someone say that they are willing to kill you before you start to take them seriously?

There is no denying that both Islam and Christianity have extremely bloody pasts with the killing of people who did not believe the “right” way.
The difference being Christianity for the “most part” has outgrown that past, Islam has not.

Evan
09-01-2008, 12:38 AM
Joe, if you are going to quote me to disagree then use the entire sentence since it is relevant to the point I made. What I said was

"Chief, you cannot beat an enemy in conventional warfare on his own ground if he has greater numbers of people ready and willing to die to get your troops. "

That does not describe Germany in 1945. It does describe Iraq.

JoeFin
09-01-2008, 01:00 AM
Sorry Even - my mistake

Here is a very telling video about the actual search for Weapons of Mass Destruction

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Aco1ZUq9eQ

chief
09-01-2008, 04:57 AM
Lazlo,
I never have agreed with the way we are fighting the current war, I was in Afganistan and Iraq a couple of years ago as a consulant., many things should be done differently. You have to fight a war 100% not the piecemeal
way we are currently, that said, we are winning. In no way belittling those who have gave all 4000 kia in 5 years is a pretty cheap war considering the battle of Saipan cost 2900 lives in six days. We are fight the war the way the American public is dictating it.

Doc Nickel
09-01-2008, 05:06 AM
During first movie viewing Independence day.. When the white house blew up? the audience cheered.

I know that was just a movie, but it sets the tone of America.. Ready for Change.

-Keep in mind that movie came out in 1996, during the administration of a fairly popular Democratic president, with a strong economy and just as the so-called "dot com" boom was getting cranked up.

People cheer movies for the visuals. They love to see stuff blown up. They'd have cheered just as loud if they showed the Roman Colosseum or an Egyptian Pyramid blown up.

Doc.

derekm
09-01-2008, 06:57 AM
David,

...
Wonder how many here have a son or daughter IN the military, put in harm's way, in this adventure of GWB's. Scion of the British throne was supposed to go to War. Cancelled, because the Crown was afraid that the Iraquis or the Afghanis would target the boy.

....

Point of information (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_harry#Army) - The official story was Iraq was cancelled for him because of the danger to his unit - That the unit would be targeted in the hope of getting him. Pictures were released of the members of his command all wearing Tee shirt printed with words "I'm Harry" (illusions to one of scenes in the film Spartacus).
He then went incognito into Afghanistan.

Point of information - The British tradition is less precious about the security of the Royal family than the families of some other heads of state. This is probably because of the family history:

Prince Andrew (Harrys Uncle) saw action in a shooting war (Falklands) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Andrew#Military_Service)
Lord Louis Mountbatten (great,great,Great Uncle,IRC) killed in a terrorist attack saw action in a shooting war (survived his ship sinking..) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis_Mountbatten#Second_World_War)
Duke of Edinburgh (Harrys Grandfather) saw action in a shooting war WW2 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prince_Philip,_Duke_of_Edinburgh#Military_service)
King George VI and Queen Elizabeth (great grandparents) had their home bombed 7 times. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckingham_Palace)

I would conjecture that if strings were pulled by his family they were for him to go "in harms way" as they were for his Uncle rather than the contrary.

Richard-TX
09-01-2008, 07:27 AM
Christianity for the “most part” has outgrown that past, Islam has not.

One can always hope.

"Crucifixion Performance
Easter Sunday, 1969

Skaggs dragged [his] Crucifix sculpture through the Easter Parade up Fifth Avenue to the doors of St. Patrick's Cathedral. As he turned towards the Cathedral, the doors slammed shut and the police converged around him. As the crowd shouted "Kill him, kill him," police officers kicked the cross into his back. "

http://www.joeyskaggs.com/html/retsub.html

On Easter Sunday the crowd shouted "Kill him". The only way it could have been more ironic is if they shouted "Crucify him, Crucify him"

A.K. Boomer
09-01-2008, 09:42 AM
Lazlo,
I never have agreed with the way we are fighting the current war, I was in Afganistan and Iraq a couple of years ago as a consulant., many things should be done differently. You have to fight a war 100% not the piecemeal
way we are currently, that said, we are winning. In no way belittling those who have gave all 4000 kia in 5 years is a pretty cheap war considering the battle of Saipan cost 2900 lives in six days. We are fight the war the way the American public is dictating it.



Chief, with all due repect, This is a war that should have never been fought --- Afganistan OK, Iraq Nope, This is in no way making our world a "safer place"
Its making it exactly the opposite.
History has proven that many of these people live to hate --- history has also proven that its best to let them hate each other, it occupies there time and gives them something to do,
When looking at different countrys I often put an individual face on them and it helps me to understand them better, One thing Iv learned is you dont go up to two irrational drunks in the bar who are arguing and ask them "which one of you has the problem" I can assure you both of them do and now its yours and twice as big as their twisted attention is now fully directed on you...

First and foremost recognize that just a fraction of Al quaida is actually in Iraq, and recognize that before we entered they werent --- so it didnt warrant any action, people forget that the "excuse" has shifted --- first it was all about WMD, then when GW came up empty he had to backpedal -- Remember? I do,
Secondly recognize that the ones that are now in Iraq once again are not only just a fraction but also the "grunts" --- and for every "important" grunt that we blow away there is ten more wanting to immediately fill his shoes...
This also leaves most all the major "master minds" to do what they do best, live in caves and plot and plan...
Last but not least - recognize the real threat --- How did they get too us in the first place? there ya go,,, think were safer to be half way around the world burning up resources and fighting with a few of the "stupid ones" while we let the others plot and plan? And for the most part fighting against the people of their own country because they of course dont want us there, Weve made what Saddam did to his own people look like childsplay and I might add have left major gaps open on the homefront...
One thing for sure --- this newfound hatred will not go away over night, this is going to last for generations, Al quaida has hated us along with many others for quite sometime --- Now you can times that by at least ten and also drag many other fringe groups into the mix, If something heavy duty comes down the pike soon I believe I know where I'll be putting about half the blame...

Getting back to the bar ---- when I was younger I used to not mind my own business -- then when I got wiser I cant tell you how much fun it is to know when to "stay out" and not intervene --- its the difference between enjoying yourself while you watch two idiots go at it OR being one of the idiots yourself...
A real strategist would figure out a way of putting Al quaida against the Taliban, that would occupy their time for a while.

JoeFin
09-01-2008, 10:04 AM
Lazlo,
I never have agreed with the way we are fighting the current war, I was in Afganistan and Iraq a couple of years ago as a consulant., many things should be done differently. You have to fight a war 100% not the piecemeal
way we are currently,

Finaly - some one that gets it !


We are fight the war the way the American public is dictating it.

Althou on that statement I strongly disagree.

At the time we were in Afghanistan greater then 90% of the country was behind the administration's actions. IE: Patric Tilman - who willingly gave up a career in the NFL. (God rest his soul)

It wasn't until the rhetoric leading up to the Iraq invasion did these number begin to shrink

Of course the Bush administration pulled out all the stops in George Bush’s 2003 SOTU speech and the famous 16 little words that “implied but did not specifically state Saddam Hussin would hit America with nuclear weapons”.

Here is a nice video explaining how the Bush Administration handed the American media their collective hat

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e8leSpSzAcA

lazlo
09-01-2008, 10:50 AM
Lazlo,
I never have agreed with the way we are fighting the current war, I was in Afganistan and Iraq a couple of years ago as a consulant., many things should be done differently. You have to fight a war 100% not the piecemeal way we are currently

Chief, to clarify: I'm critical of how Cheney & Rumsfeld ran a propaganda campaign with forged evidence to sell the War to the American people, to the United Nations, and to our Allies; I'm critical of the fact that the Bush administration had no plan for what we were supposed to do once we eradicated Saddam's government; and I'm critical of the blatant corruption involved with the multi billion dollar defense contracts for the occupation of Iraq.

But I am not critical of our Armed Forced!

Their job is to enforce the political will of the US, and they did a spectacular job of that -- they took Bagdad in 13 days, which is just amazing, especially considering that the invasion was ill conceived and ill prepared: most of the soldiers had woodland-camo MOP gear, there wasn't enough body army to go around, and the up-armor kits for the HMMV's didn't start showing up until 2005, nearly 2 years after the invasion was over.


4000 kia in 5 years is a pretty cheap war considering the battle of Saipan cost 2900 lives in six days.

In my opinion, if even a single life was lost due to political incompetence, arrogance, or corruption, then it was too many. Afghanistan was a just cause -- Veni, Vidi, Vici. But we should have finished the job, and we never should have been in Iraq to begin with.

I have friends who are active duty Army regulars who have done several rotations in Iraq, and they're tired and pissed off. But they do their job, and they don't complain. None of this is their fault: Their's is not to question why...

Todd Tolhurst
09-01-2008, 11:50 AM
There is no denying that both Islam and Christianity have extremely bloody pasts with the killing of people who did not believe the “right” way.
The difference being Christianity for the “most part” has outgrown that past, Islam has not.
Give us back a theocratic political system and we'll just see what Christianity has and hasn't outgrown.

lazlo
09-01-2008, 12:38 PM
Give us back a theocratic political system and we'll just see what Christianity has and hasn't outgrown.

We do Todd. A substantial portion of the US Right Wing is comprised of fundamentalist Christians who enthusiastically support Israel and the invasion of Iraq because they believe these events are leading up to Armageddon and the Rapture, and that a war between Muslims and Jews will bring about the Second Coming.

There was an article on 60 Minutes showing thousands of Christian Zionists meeting in Jerusalem for the Jewish holiday of Sukkot to cheer on Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and to declare their unconditional support for the state of Israel. 60 Minutes interviewed Ariel Sharon about it, and asked if he realized that they were there hoping to accelerate the series of events that lead to the End of Days.

Sharon said that of course the Israelis know this, but they are just as happy to get financial and military support from the US, whether it was from religious fundamentalists or political action committees :rolleyes:

derekm
09-01-2008, 01:21 PM
... Their's is not to question why...

...Was there a man dismayed ?
Not though the soldiers knew
someone had blundered....

brucepts
09-01-2008, 02:38 PM
propaganda campaign

It's not called "Propaganda" technically it's called "Information Warfare" . . . http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Information_warfare

nheng
09-01-2008, 02:49 PM
A substantial portion of the US Right Wing is comprised of fundamentalist Christians who enthusiastically support Israel and the invasion of Iraq because they believe these events are leading up to Armageddon and the Rapture, and that a war between Muslims and Jews will bring about the Second Coming

I can't believe I started this thread, sit back for a few days and look where it's gone :D

If there is indeed a "portion" who believe this, IMHO it is a microscopic minority and would be considered a load of cr-p by the rest of the good and honorable people of this earth who call themselves Christians of one form or other. And yes, Christians can say cr-p when it is appropriate.

Incidentally, my M207KDD pulley bearings were actually C1, not C2. C1 is the "reduced internal clearance" callout :)

lazlo
09-01-2008, 03:01 PM
Incidentally, my M207KDD pulley bearings were actually C1, not C2. C1 is the "reduced internal clearance" callout :)

C2 is also reduced clearance, C1 is really reduced clearance :)
You can order the M207KDD in C1, C2, C3 and Cn.

By the way Den, I noticed in MSC's 2008 catalog that they carry the SKF 6207 in ABEC-3 (i.e., same thing as the Fafnir M207KDD), Cn for $18, which is an awesome price, especially if you get it during the bi-weekly 25% off sale (which should start this Wednesday).

Remember, a modern ABEC-3 bearing usually meets ABEC-5 standards, so that seems like an excellent deal for $13.50.

lazlo
09-01-2008, 03:10 PM
If there is indeed a "portion" who believe this, IMHO it is a microscopic minority and would be considered a load of cr-p by the rest of the good and honorable people of this earth who call themselves Christians of one form or other.

These are Christian Fundamentalists, A.K.A. Evangelicals, led by Jerry Falwell, Robert Grant, et al. Robert Grant's Christian Voice and Falwell's Moral Majority have merged into coalitions like the "Christian Right", the "Christian Coalition" and the "Family Research Council." They have approximately 70 millions members and have a major impact on American politics.

From our friends at Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_fundamentalism

By the late 1990s, the Christian Right was influencing elections and policy with groups like Christian Coalition and Family Research Council helping the Republican Party to gain control of the White House, both houses of Congress, and a more conservative Supreme Court by the mid-1990s.

lazlo
09-01-2008, 03:22 PM
Here's the story summary from the 60 Minutes web page:

Zion's Christian Soldiers
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/10/03/60minutes/main524268.shtml

(CBS) This week, Israel's Prime Minister Ariel Sharon told President Bush that he would start to dismantle some illegal Jewish settlements on the West Bank as part of an agreement with the new Palestinian Prime Minister.

That news has already alarmed those Jewish settlers -- and ultra-Zionist Israelis who believe that the Jewish State should control all of the Biblical Jewish homeland.

But they're not the only group that feels that way. So do Fundamentalist Christian Evangelicals who make up the largest single religious grouping in the United States.

What's the number one item on the agenda of the Christian Right? Abortion? School Prayer? No and No. Believe it or not, what's most important to a lot of conservative Christians is the Jewish State. Israel: Its size, its strength, and its survival. Why?

There is the alliance between America and Israel in the war on Islamic terror. But it goes deeper. For Christians who interpret the bible in a literal fashion, Israel has a crucial role to play in bringing on the Second Coming of Christ.

Last fall, supporters of the Christian Coalition gathered on the Mall in Washington to express their faith and to lobby the administration. The rally was organized by the Christian Coalition, which wants to make sure that the Bush Administration sees the struggle in the Middle East between Jews and Muslims their way - the Christian way.

At one congregation in Colorado, it’s Israel Awareness Day. But this is not a Jewish congregation. They are all Christians. Not only are they holding these pep rallies all across America, they’re also streaming here to Israel, to the dangerous streets of Jerusalem to express their undying devotion.

American Christian Zionists say they are now a more important source of support for Israel than American Jews or the traditional Jewish lobby.

“It is my belief that the Bible Belt in America is Israel’s only safety belt right now,” says Rev. Jerry Falwell, one of the leaders of the Christian Right. That’s the bulk of Evangelical Christians; Falwell claims to speak for all of them.

“There are 70 million of us,” he says. “And if there’s one thing that brings us together quickly it’s whenever we begin to detect our government becoming a little anti-Israel.”

Falwell began to detect just that in April 2002 when President Bush called on Israel to withdraw its tanks from Palestinian towns on the West Bank. So Falwell shot off a letter of protest to the White House, which was followed by a hundred thousand e-mails from Christian conservatives. Israel did not move its tanks. Mr. Bush did not ask again.

Prime Minister Sharon can apparently trust the Christian Evangelicals to do the right thing too. They treated him like a rock star when they flocked to Jerusalem last fall to celebrate the Jewish Feast of Tabernacles.

What propels them? Why do they love Israel so much? The return of the Jews to their ancient homeland is seen by Evengelicals as a precondition for the Second Coming of Christ. Therefore, when the Jewish state was created in 1948 they saw it as a sign.

Israel’s conquest of Jerusalem and the West Bank in 1967 also deepened their excitement and heightened their anticipation. And today’s war between Jews and Arabs was also prophesied, they say. They’ve seen it all before – in the pages of the Bible.

“The Bible does not contain the word of God,” says Ed McAteer. “Listen to me closely. The Bible is the word of God.” McAteer is known as the Godfather of the Christian Right. He’s a former Colgate marketing executive from Memphis, and a founder of the Moral Majority.

McAteer believes that the current situation is the beginning of the final battle. “I believe that we are seeing prophecy unfold so rapidly and dramatically and wonderfully and, without exaggerating, makes me breathless.”

But he’s not the only one. Countless millions of Americans are reading a series of novels called “Left Behind.” These novels are topping bestseller lists all over the country and they’re being made into movies. They chronicle apocalyptic times, and the setting is the 21st century, complete with war planes and TV correspondents.

However, the plot is ripped from the pages of the Bible, so it all winds up here in Israel where, according to the Book of Revelations, the final battle in the history of the future will be fought on an ancient battlefield in northern Israel called Armageddon. It will follow seven years of tribulation during which the earth will be shaken by such disasters that previous human history will seem like a day in the country. The blood will rise as high as a horse’s bridle at Armageddon, before Christ triumphs to begin his 1,000-year rule.

And the Jews? Well, two-thirds of them will have been wiped out by now. But the survivors will accept Jesus at last.

“The Jews die or convert. As a Jew, I can’t feel very comfortable with the affections of somebody who looks forward to that scenario,” says Gershom Gorenberg, who knows that scenario well.

Gorenberg is the author of the “End of Days,” a book about those Christian evangelicals who choose to read the Bible literally. “They don’t love real Jewish people. They love us as characters in their story, in their play, and that’s not who we are, and we never auditioned for that part, and the play is not one that ends up good for us.”

“If you listen to the drama they’re describing, essentially it’s a five-act play in which the Jews disappear in the fourth act.”

Mad Scientist
09-01-2008, 03:36 PM
Give us back a theocratic political system and we'll just see what Christianity has and hasn't outgrown.

Sadly that could very well be.

chief
09-01-2008, 03:59 PM
I'm outta here, can't you guys find anything other than the time worn "Jewish conspiracy theories".
I could be wrong but the last time I checked I couldn't find any jews or christians, cutting off non-believer's head, circumising women, killing women using honor as an excuse, demanding special schools, and a whole host of other BS demands.
You need to worry about the cult of islam and it's appeasers like obama.

tattoomike68
09-01-2008, 04:08 PM
I'm outta here, can't you guys find anything other than the time worn "Jewish conspiracy theories".
I could be wrong but the last time I checked I couldn't find any jews or christians, cutting off non-believer's head, circumising women, killing women using honor as an excuse, demanding special schools, and a whole host of other BS demands.
You need to worry about the cult of islam and it's appeasers like obama.

Africans are as screwed up as a football bat..

http://www.youtube.com/v/ntfAM3avKQ8

Evan
09-01-2008, 04:17 PM
As I said in another thread the only thing that really scares me is people committed to an ideology. They cannot be trusted to act logically or even in their own best interest never mind that of somebody else. It's a mental abberation that afflicts people regardless of which ideology they subscribe to.

lazlo
09-01-2008, 04:29 PM
I'm outta here, can't you guys find anything other than the time worn "Jewish conspiracy theories".

It's a Fundamentalist Christian "conspiracy theory", not Jewish. It's the End of Days described in the Book of Revelations, the last book of the New Testament.

The literal interpretation that Jerry Falwell and his followers believe is that after 7 years of war, the final battle will be fought on an ancient battlefield in northern Israel called Armageddon. If you've read the Book of Revelations, it's not a happy ending for the Jews.

By the way, female circumcision is not commanded by the Qur'an and is not practiced by the majority of Muslims.

Evan
09-01-2008, 04:51 PM
It's actually called "The Revelation of St. John the Divine".

lazlo
09-01-2008, 05:50 PM
It's actually called "The Revelation of St. John the Divine".

Actually, it's the The Revelation of Jesus Christ, written by John.

The book is all about Jesus Christ, and it is his self-revelation, given to him by God to show his servants what must soon take place. He sends his revelation to John by an Angel in the form of a series of dreams/visions. It's a really hard read...

But my point is that all religions have outlandish and extravagant imagery, so saying that you're not going to vote for Barack Obama, who was born and raised Christian, because you have issues with Islamic beliefs is more than a little disingenuous.

Evan
09-01-2008, 06:02 PM
I mean that the title of the book is not The Book of Revelations. I have read it more than once. It defines the apocalypse. I like to read the Bible and try to interpret what was meant when the vocabulary contained absolutely no scientific or technical terms. How would you describe St. Elmos Fire? As a burning bush perhaps?

lazlo
09-01-2008, 06:51 PM
These are Christian Fundamentalists, A.K.A. Evangelicals, led by Jerry Falwell, Robert Grant, et al. They have approximately 70 millions members and have a major impact on American politics.

By the way, Alaska Governor Sarah Palin is an Evangelical Christian. That was one of the primary reasons McCain chose her as his running mate.

Google "Sarah Palin" and "End Times" and you'll find a bunch of interesting hits...

Dawai
09-01-2008, 07:27 PM
Barack Obama, who was born and raised Christian, because you have issues with Islamic beliefs is more than a little disingenuous.

You evidently ain't been paying attention, or just listening to the "words" as spoken instead of reading about the past deeds and events.

Obama, born a Muslim, his father was a muslim so he was born into the faith, he may have converted to the Christian belief later, but he does not spout CHRISTIAN viewpoints, he spouts antichristian rhetoric and people are too stupid to hear what he is saying. HIS church, Reverend Wright's church is a abombination of mixed up beliefs and viewpoints bastardized to suit the african american (Louis Farrakan's viewpoints) and justify their hatred of all other races on earth.

Any more of a plain explanation of words would be just ugly.

There are quite a few authors saying he is the ANTICHRIST. I have not formed a opinion on that yet, but, that would be a CHANGE huh?

http://img.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2008/02_04/BaracKOsamaAP_468x789.jpg
Barrack HUSSIEN OBAMA in Muslim attire. NOT photoshopped or cropped or altered.

HURRAH FOR CHANGE...

Todd Tolhurst
09-01-2008, 07:38 PM
Barrack HUSSIEN OBAMA in Muslim attire. NOT photoshopped or cropped or altered.

Ah, proof positive -- a politician wearing strange clothes. Hey, look! Michael Dukakis is a tank commander! John Kerry is a NASA tech!

http://www.toddtolhurst.com/ximages/dukakis_tank.jpg

http://www.toddtolhurst.com/ximages/Kerry_bunny_suit.jpg

JoeFin
09-01-2008, 07:40 PM
You evidently ain't been paying attention, ...

Well mabey you can tell us why McCain made 32 propaganda tapes for the No. Veitnamese

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBiti-ZbeO0

Thats all I want to know

lazlo
09-01-2008, 07:51 PM
Obama, born a Muslim, his father was a muslim so he was born into the faith, he may have converted to the Christian belief later,

No. Obama's father is a (Harvard-educated) Kenyan Muslim who left his wife and son at age 2. Obama was raised Christian, and is an active member of Chicago's Trinity United Church of Christ.


There are quite a few authors saying he is the ANTICHRIST.

The only authors I've seen saying that are White Supremacists. Their issue is not that he had a Muslim father who left him when he was two. Their issue is that he's half black.

Dawai
09-01-2008, 08:17 PM
Well if you really knew anything about white supremacists You'd know they are the Muslim's allies.

They are as pointy-viewed as any ALABAMA Klansman. Just looking from opposite sides of the color barrier.

I've been raised in the south, my eyes have been open. I've seen a black man hanging from a train trestle at the age of six, thought after Martin Luther King was murdered our house would be burned by the gangs walking up and down the roads.

By the way, I am a mix With American Indian in me, I am not fit to be a klansman, nor a nazi, nor any of the "so called" purebred race haters.

Get your happy self onto Youtube and type Obama antichrist and watch a few.. most are ignorant rambling crap, but a few make sense..

Dawai
09-01-2008, 08:18 PM
Joe? I don't know, let's ask Jane Fonda...

Chicago's church.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FUnBi1i90E (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0FUnBi1i90E)
On the love of Farrakan.. Anti-Semitic view

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7QUftErt_M&feature=related
Farrakan speaks out for Obama.. hurran..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zpmTxCSEzaU
E's gotta be a good man, HAMAS backs him, praises him.. HURRAH FOR CHANGE.

JoeFin
09-01-2008, 08:43 PM
Joe? I don't know, let's ask Jane Fonda...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S7QUftErt_M&feature=related
Farrakan speaks out for Obama.. hurran..CHANGE.

Actually Farrakhan was making quite a bit more sense then you are right now.

He was simply saying it is better to vote for “Your own self Interest”. The bigots always show through as when folks systematically demonstrated to them they are voting against Security, their own personal wealth, and the general betterment of the country. They then pull out some raggedy antiquated photo and misrepresent it to the best of the prejudiced ability

“Vote Wealthy and Live Poorly” is that your motto

dp
09-01-2008, 08:44 PM
Barry is more Hawaiian than anything so far as youthful influences go. Not quite kama`aina but darn close. I find it impossible to think he could have lived there as long as he did in the age brackets he was in, went to the schools he went to, and could not be heavily influenced by the Hawaiian culture. No culture could be further removed from any radical group than that of Hawaii. There's a lot of racism in Hawaii but you won't have to worry about suicide bombers.

http://abagond.wordpress.com/2008/04/10/obama-in-hawaii/

I don't like his politics but I don't believe for an instant he's a follower of the Muslim religion. I think he's very tolerant of it but he's very tolerant of a lot of things. He's for abortion, for example, but I don't believe he's personally going to kill any babies, for example. And if it's possible for this thread to become more absurd, offensive, and further off topic, George needs to hand off his moderatorship to someone else.

Dawai
09-01-2008, 08:48 PM
Well.. time for me to back away.. I'll not post in this topic again, it is becoming too emotional for me.

Have a nice one..

Vote the way your conscience tells you to. You can believe I will at least cancel out "YOUR" vote, except for the antiquated Electoral college is still in effect. YOUR personal vote does not matter. THE lot is cast for you and I by others.

When we gonna change that?

If you can convince me you are right, pm me.. no hatred, no prejudice, just common sense tells me to avoid Obama.

Old photos, the convictions, the stories are called HISTORY for a reason.. the victors write and rewrite history.

tattoomike68
09-01-2008, 08:52 PM
George needs to hand off his moderatorship to someone else.

Practical machinist is the site where everyone is babysat by nazi goderators, not here.

If a thread hurts sombodys tiny fealing they should not read it.

dp
09-01-2008, 09:12 PM
Practical machinist is the site where everyone is babysat by nazi goderators, not here.

If a thread hurts sombodys tiny fealing they should not read it.

Any chance you understand the vast difference between being offensive, being offended, and someone having their tiny fealing hurt? And that moderating thing - did you make that up or did George whisper that in your ear? I'm pretty sure somebody will moderate as needed here to protect the business represented by the BBS.

tattoomike68
09-01-2008, 09:34 PM
Any chance you understand the vast difference between being offensive, being offended, and someone having their tiny fealing hurt? And that moderating thing - did you make that up or did George whisper that in your ear? I'm pretty sure somebody will moderate as needed here to protect the business represented by the BBS.


Its a freakin message board, dont take things so seriously.

:rolleyes:

Evan
09-01-2008, 10:13 PM
No matter what you think don't forget to vote.

http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/vm.jpg

Todd Tolhurst
09-01-2008, 10:16 PM
No matter what you think don't forget to vote.

Early and often...

oldtiffie
09-01-2008, 11:00 PM
No matter what you think don't forget to vote.
http://vts.bc.ca/pics2/vm.jpg


Early and often...

To "stuff the vote" or just the ballot and/or box?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vote_and_Voting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballot_stuffing

Perhaps to cut the rhetoric and to the chase (as it were?):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USA_Election_2008

A.K. Boomer
09-01-2008, 11:39 PM
If you can convince me you are right, pm me.. no hatred, no prejudice, just common sense tells me to avoid Obama.





Im more worried about whats hiding in McCains left cheek --- you should be too,, could be a small black man in there you know.

Forrest Addy
09-01-2008, 11:46 PM
I see there's an issue boiling up about Rebublican Veep Palin's candidates daughter being pregnant. I'm a moderate Democrat and I think this is a family issue not a national one. For the record Obama forbade his team from capitalizing on this.

The "Troopergate" thing may be an issue if it turns out to have substance because it hinges on misuse of political power. Does this single issue disqualify Palin as Veep? Much depends on the magnitude. We really shouldn't expect perfection in our officials to demand if of those we oppose.

dp
09-01-2008, 11:53 PM
Forrest - I agree on both accounts and I'm significantly to the right of you. She's also been a member of Alaska's independence party which I really don't care about. There's nothing unusual about states and the populace of them looking at secession as a solution to the circus in DC.

tattoomike68
09-02-2008, 12:16 AM
The "Troopergate" thing may be an issue if it turns out to have substance because it hinges on misuse of political power. Does this single issue disqualify Palin as Veep? Much depends on the magnitude. We really shouldn't expect perfection in our officials to demand if of those we oppose.

She got her ex-brother-in-law fired.
He was a cop and poached a moose, and drank booze in his patrol car if you or I did that we would be in jail let alone lose a policeman job.

dp
09-02-2008, 12:23 AM
You are not allowed to use the power of your office to influence law enforcement or circumvent the legal system. Or, to be more pragmatic, you are not supposed to get caught using the power of your office...

Doc Nickel
09-02-2008, 01:44 AM
She got her ex-brother-in-law fired.
He was a cop and poached a moose, and drank booze in his patrol car if you or I did that we would be in jail let alone lose a policeman job.

-Don't forget he tasered his 11-year-old son.

The troopers "investigated" the poaching and of course found no wrongdoing, despite eyewitness reports... who were, of course, other troopers.

The drunk-on-the-job part was another time where cronyism saved him; he was found by another trooper, who simply drove him home. You or I would have done jail time, especially if we were carrying a firearm (legally or not) and would very likely have been fired by our boss for drinking while driving a company car.

All the blogs harping on "Troopergate" seem to conveniently leave out these assertatations, preferring to let the reader think it was simply a messy divorce and that Palin was trying to pull strings to help her sister.

The trooper was not fit to handle his duties, and should have been dismissed. Palin knew this, and pushed for it- perhaps a bit too hard, but the man was threatening her sister with violence. Would you just stand around and say, "there's nothing I can do?"

Doc.

JoeFin
09-02-2008, 01:57 AM
-Don't forget he tasered his 11-year-old son.

The troopers "investigated" the poaching and of course found no wrongdoing, despite eyewitness reports... who were, of course, other troopers.

All the blogs harping on "Troopergate" seem to conveniently leave out these assertatations, preferring to let the reader think it was simply a messy divorce and that Palin was trying to pull strings to help her sister.

Doc.

You have any credible links for that?

I just haven't seen it yet in any publication held to the scrutiny of libal laws. I thought the flap was over stuff like this


"Stein says that as mayor, Palin continued to inject religious beliefs into her policy at times. "She asked the library how she could go about banning books," he says, because some voters thought they had inappropriate language in them. "The librarian was aghast." The librarian, Mary Ellen Baker, couldn't be reached for comment, but news reports from the time show that Palin had threatened to fire her for not giving "full support" to the mayor."
http://www.time.com/time/politics/article/0,8599,1837918,00.html


JoeFin

Doc Nickel
09-02-2008, 02:27 AM
You have any credible links for that?

-Yes, plenty. I'm an Alaskan that reads the newspapers, and this has been front-page stuff since Palin was elected Governor two years ago. I'm in the middle to trying to put together a sort of "press release" of online sources- you can start by searching through the archives of the Alaska Daily News at www.adn.com

He also sent a death threat to Palin's father- I'd forgotten about that one.

Any one of these things would have gotten a normal person fired or in some cases jailed. The troopers closed ranks, gave the guy a ten-day suspension (then shortened it to five days) and called it good.

For us normal people, driving drunk up here is a mandatory five days in jail, and revocation of your license for ninety days. This guy got caught- by a fellow trooper, who drove him home- and didn't even get a slap on the wrist.

Doc.

Evan
09-02-2008, 02:42 AM
For us normal people, driving drunk up here is a mandatory five days in jail, and revocation of your license for ninety days. This guy got caught- by a fellow trooper, who drove him home- and didn't even get a slap on the wrist.


My cousin is a retired cop. We have had discussions over this sort of thing in the past. That way of dealing with another cop in that situation is pretty much standard practice. If a police officer arrested him and booked him as he would an ordinary citizen he would find his work environment suddenly becoming a great deal more difficult. Like it or not that is how it is done most places. Police officers look out for each other even when it means bending the law to the near breaking point.

tattoomike68
09-02-2008, 02:59 AM
-Don't forget he tasered his 11-year-old son.

The troopers "investigated" the poaching and of course found no wrongdoing, despite eyewitness reports... who were, of course, other troopers.

The drunk-on-the-job part was another time where cronyism saved him; he was found by another trooper, who simply drove him home. You or I would have done jail time, especially if we were carrying a firearm (legally or not) and would very likely have been fired by our boss for drinking while driving a company car.

All the blogs harping on "Troopergate" seem to conveniently leave out these assertatations, preferring to let the reader think it was simply a messy divorce and that Palin was trying to pull strings to help her sister.

The trooper was not fit to handle his duties, and should have been dismissed. Palin knew this, and pushed for it- perhaps a bit too hard, but the man was threatening her sister with violence. Would you just stand around and say, "there's nothing I can do?"

Doc.

Thanks for filling in the blanks, from the sounds of things she was just taking out the trash.

Doc Nickel
09-02-2008, 03:15 AM
My cousin is a retired cop. We have had discussions over this sort of thing in the past. That way of dealing with another cop in that situation is pretty much standard practice.

-Agreed.

And had that been the only incident, there would have been no problems. The problem is that the trooper committed far more- including issuing a death threat to the Governor's father- and yet the troopers steadfastly refused to discipline the man.

When Monegan- the so-called Top Cop- also refused to discipline him, Palin, as she was perfectly legally empowered to do, dismissed him. In her defense, she even offered him the top spot on the state Liquor Board, which he refused.

The blogs and many of the news articles try to spin it as Palin overstepping her ethical bounds to help out her sister during a simple bitter divorce. But the fact is, she was holding up her campaign promise to remove corruption from government.

And what's more corrupt than a police commissioner who refuses to discipline one of his officers that is continually breaking the law? There might not have been bribes and graft involved, but that still sounds pretty corrupt to me.

Doc.

A.K. Boomer
09-02-2008, 07:00 AM
But the fact is, she was holding up her campaign promise to remove corruption from government.





she even offered him the top spot on the state Liquor Board,





Lemmie get this right, Trooper gets off the hook for drinking while on the job, but doesnt really get off the hook cuz it gets found out --- now heads start to roll in the cover-up --- top dawg gets canned over it for his attempt to protect one of his own (and Id have to say rightfully so or at least there should have been some serious repercussions) for misuse of Liquor while behind the wheel and on the job, But --- in the best interest of the people and in keeping with her campaign promises to remove corruption from the government Palin Actually "promotes" Said top dawg to top spot on the state liquor board? Isnt a cover up about liquor what got him in trouble in the first place?
No room for corruption there right? Or perhaps is it kinda like a "brush off bribe"? And might I dare say not in the best interest of the people at all? There's just a touch of biased irony in there, a little too much to feel comfortable about...

lazlo
09-02-2008, 07:56 AM
The trooper was not fit to handle his duties, and should have been dismissed. Palin knew this, and pushed for it- perhaps a bit too hard, but the man was threatening her sister with violence. Would you just stand around and say, "there's nothing I can do?"

That's really not the core question Doc. Her Sister was in an ugly divorce and custody battle with the Trooper.
The question, like Dennis says, is whether she abused her political power to solve a personal problem.

It was announced yesterday that she hired a lawyer three weeks ago to act on her behalf for a legislative inquiry that began several weeks ago and is currently slated to be released just days before Election Day.

My question is: the polls indicate that McCain and Obama are neck and neck. Why would McCain pick an unknown Republican outsider with so many skeletons in her closet as VP?? You normally pick a running mate who's bland (so as not to overshadow the primary candidate), uncontroversial, squeaky-clean, and appeals to some part of the voting constituents that the primary candidate doesn't have locked. Cheney and Biden are perfect examples.

Voters are looking a lot more closely at Palin, because of McCain's age and health - there's a good chance that she'll become the President. Even if she's acquitted, TrooperGate (and her pregnant 17 year old daughter) is going to hang over the election, especially since the Alaskan legislative investigate is scheduled to complete days before the Presidential Election.

He picked a woman because he's appealing to the disenfranchised Hillary votes, but there are plenty of well-established Republican women he could have chosen as running mate.

Evan
09-02-2008, 07:58 AM
Perhaps the job with the liquor board is similar to being posted to Adak, Alaska?

garyphansen
09-02-2008, 11:21 AM
My take on this is I would rather have Sarah as president than any of the other three running. At least she is for drilling in ANWR and that is something that really needs to be done if the Alaskan pipe line is going to keep pumping. ANWR is the size of lower Michigan and they only want to drill in less than six square miles. Ninety percent of the native peoples that live there want them to drill. Where's the problem? Oh, by the way, I have been there. It is mile after mile of nothing and most of the year it is void of wildlife. Gary P. Hansen

lazlo
09-02-2008, 12:48 PM
My take on this is I would rather have Sarah as president than any of the other three running. At least she is for drilling in ANWR and that is something that really needs to be done if the Alaskan pipe line is going to keep pumping.

You're going to vote for the most powerful person in the Free World, on the basis of one issue?

I don't have a problem with drilling ANWR if they're careful, but do you realize that the USGS estimates that there are only 10 billion barrels of oil there, which will take decades to extract?
We consume 21 Million barrels/day. So ANWAR would provide the US with 476 days of oil.

From the USGS
Estimates of volumes of technically recoverable oil in various parts of the ANWR assessment study area.
http://pubs.usgs.gov/fs/fs-0028-01/image4.gif

dp
09-02-2008, 12:53 PM
More importantly it provides us with a lot of revenue. Especially advantageous if we sell it overseas.

lazlo
09-02-2008, 12:57 PM
Sure, agree completely Dennis, and we could sure use the oil, but I'm not sure I'd want to base my election decision on one issue, especially one of the 2nd tier issues...

dp
09-02-2008, 12:59 PM
Sure, agree completely Dennis, and we could sure use the oil, but I'm not sure I'd want to base my election decision on one issue, especially one of the 2nd tier issues...

I'm more concerned over the next Supreme Court picks than I am over any amount of oil. In fact it is a single-issue for me because there are few things a president can screw up more on that SCOTUS choices. They last and last.

garyphansen
09-02-2008, 01:54 PM
"You're going to vote for the most powerful person in the Free World, on the basis of one issue?"

No, I agree with her on a whole bunch of issues, I was just pointing out that she is the only one running on the right side of drilling in ANWR.

I am against additional gun control laws, (They do not work) and so is she.

She is pro life, and so am I

She has worked against government corruption.

She has worked to get government out of people's back pocket.

Gary P. Hansen