Question Hydraulic Powerpack, Homemade

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  • GKman
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2006
    • 1069

    Question Hydraulic Powerpack, Homemade

    If you have an old Ford tractor, in my case a 1951 8N, you soon discover what a pain it is to lose hydraulic pumping when you depress the clutch. This has been addressed with two systems; a pump running off the front of the crankshaft for a front loader and a hideous retrofit belt driven pump called a Live Thang for about $500.00.

    Here's my thinking. Build a hydraulic power pack from a 12 volt starter turning a power steering pump actuated by a switch on the clutch petal or a trigger on the lift control lever. A master switch to lock out when not needed. There is access to the tractor pressure side and return so minimum plumbing would be needed if located under the right side of the seat. The Live Thang parallels the auxillary pump with the existing and I know that this works. Would need a battery cable to the pump which wouldn't be difficult.

    The existing system develops 1700 psi at about 2.5 gal per minute. The tractor uses the same fluid as the transmission, rear end for the hydraulics. I never had any experience with a power pack. For RPM and power would direct coupling between the starter and pump be reasonable.

    Thanks in advance and let the games begin.
  • doctor demo
    Senior Member
    • Apr 2006
    • 2380

    #2
    It is obvious that you are not using your tractor as it was intended, you don't need hyd. when the clutch pedal is in. .
    I couldn't resist! .
    It sounds like your add on would work, and yes all of the 12volt hyd. systems I have seen are direct connected.
    You could use that same pump with an electric clutch and belt drive it off the engine, then you would not have to worry about over heating a starter motor if you needed longer run times.

    Steve

    Comment

    • Dawai
      Senior Member
      • Dec 2005
      • 4442

      #3
      A actual powerpack is around $300 from grainger.com

      I have thought about redoing the one on my wrecker with a aux motor, I'd like to put the allison 5-auto, or the 400 turbo into it. Do away with the pto granny 4...

      Those lil powerpacks overheat really quick.
      Excuse me, I farted.

      Comment

      • GKman
        Senior Member
        • Apr 2006
        • 1069

        #4
        Clarification. I'm thinking of a system that only runs seconds at a time. One example I think of is running the brush hog mower aground. Blade stops, kills the engine if I don't clutch it fast enough. If I do clutch it in time, I've stopped the hydraulic pump and I can't pick up the mower to un-stick it. Get off, try to unhook the PTO shaft, go get a 5' bar to stick through a u joint, finally get it unhooked. Restart the tractor, drive off the obstruction, stop, reconnect the PTO shaft....

        Another is using a post hole digger. Sometimes it would be nice to stop the auger from turning with the clutch but lift the auger out of the hole.

        Comment

        • macona
          Senior Member
          • Aug 2006
          • 9425

          #5
          The hydraulic power packs are not designed for continuous duty. They will also drain your battery in no time flat.

          Do it off the engine if you have to do it.

          Comment

          • hardtail
            Senior Member
            • Jun 2005
            • 1079

            #6
            That tractor is 6V..........
            Opportunity knocks once, temptation leans on the doorbell.....

            Comment

            • GKman
              Senior Member
              • Apr 2006
              • 1069

              #7
              Originally posted by hardtail
              That tractor is 6V..........
              I've already been grafting car parts onto the old tractor. an SI 10 Delco alternator, an ignition resistor and 12V battery. The old 6 volt starter is tolerant of it. It's a common conversion.

              Originally posted by macona
              The hydraulic power packs are not designed for continuous duty. They will also drain your battery in no time flat.
              Do it off the engine if you have to do it.
              I see the power packs on snow plows on 4X4 pickups. I think the duty cycle on my application would be lower. I can't imagine what they would be for if they drain a battery that quickly.

              Comment

              • R W
                Senior Member
                • Aug 2006
                • 363

                #8
                Go for the front mounted pump, a powerpac set up would not be satifactory
                for this appliction.

                Comment

                • jacampb2
                  Senior Member
                  • Mar 2007
                  • 941

                  #9
                  I have built a few generations of hydraulic pumps for my shop, and used a saginaw power steering pump in a couple. They do work very well for a hydraulic pump, at least for my purpose. I ran one at ~1000Rpm's from a 3hp motor to be a hydraulic source for a rotary draw tubing bender. Here are the issues I had:

                  1)It is difficult to set up a remote reservoir with the normal type saginaw pump. There are some saginaws that came with a remote reservoir, which should be easier to retrofit, but I just rolled my own. It is not a huge challenge for a HSM, but it is messy if you screw up.

                  2) Pressure connections are another oddity. The old models use a double inverted flare (brake line), new ones use a metric o-ring fitting. Both are not common to hydraulic shops, I used high pressure compression fittings from my local hydraulic shop to mate the hoses.

                  3) The actual pressure and flow a saginaw is capable of. In stock form, from memory, the saginaw pump does around 1200 psi, and about .8 Gpm. You can find instructions on line for modifying the saginaw pumps for more pressure and flow. It is simple, and involves shimming the springs in the RV and drilling out the flow orfice, however, it puts the pumps outside their operational limits, and is detrimental to it's life span.

                  I blew the vanes out of two pumps running my bender. This exhausted my supply of junk yard pumps in my pile, so I looked for a better alternative. I suggest you check surplus center for a gear pump. I bought one from them to replace the saginaw, and have never looked back. I got a 1Gpm pump, rated fro 3500psi for less than $100. It has not let me down.

                  I have no idea what the speed of a starter motor is when direct coupled, but I suspect it may be more than a steering pump will like.

                  Good Luck,
                  Jason

                  Comment

                  • hardtail
                    Senior Member
                    • Jun 2005
                    • 1079

                    #10
                    Didn't they ever come with live hydraulics? I've got a 850 and a Golden Jubilee that both have flywheel driven pumps, ones a gear and one a vane, been awhile since I've been around the N's.

                    Whats your intention to share the oil with this aux pump and system or plumb in another reservoir?

                    We run into this all the time with old equipment, the first problem is low pressure (relatively speaking) high volume which usually means slow action, depending on the application you can rig up a 12V belt driven pump, means another sheave off the engine and your system can't drop below 12V for long or you'll fry the electric clutch, activation can be with a microswitch off the spool so your not wasting power when not required.

                    Some of those early front mounted pumps were real power pigs.
                    Opportunity knocks once, temptation leans on the doorbell.....

                    Comment

                    • GKman
                      Senior Member
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 1069

                      #11
                      Originally posted by jacampb2
                      I blew the vanes out of two pumps running my bender. This exhausted my supply of junk yard pumps in my pile, so I looked for a better alternative. I suggest you check surplus center for a gear pump. I bought one from them to replace the saginaw, and have never looked back. I got a 1Gpm pump, rated fro 3500psi for less than $100. It has not let me down.


                      Good Luck,
                      Jason
                      Thanks for the excellent info. The thought of exploding vanes going through my tractors hydraulic system makes your suggestion of a new gear pump really attractive. I didn't know what a Saganaw was (not being born in MI ) Looked it up and easy to spend $150.00 for one. My dad built a log splitter in about 1966 and used a PS pump that looked like one. Slow as Christmas but it worked.

                      Hardtail,
                      On an 8N the power take off shaft pokes through the pump and drives it.

                      Thanks to both. The kind of stuff I expect from a home shop machinist board.

                      Comment

                      • torker
                        Senior Member
                        • Dec 2003
                        • 6048

                        #12
                        FWIW...the 12V power packs on plows do not drain the battery quickly.
                        I've used my plow truck for hours on end and never had a problem.
                        While those packs are not rated for continuous useage...try to tell mine that
                        I am always asking for another function be it changing angles or lifting snow over the banks...the powerpack works almost non stop.
                        I have a huge driveway...a parking lot...the main road approach and my wrecking yard/shop yard...all get plowed everytime it snows..and that's a lot here. I've worked the crap out of this Meyers plow/pack and never had a problem except fpr leaky quick connects. The thing was really old and well used when I bought it.
                        I have tools I don't even know I own...

                        Comment

                        • jim davies
                          Senior Member
                          • Nov 2003
                          • 363

                          #13
                          Starter armatures usually have a lower resistance than similar armatures found in winches, etc. Also, bushings not bearings. It's easy enough to convert them to bearings, but getting the resistance up, to improve duty cycle and lower amperage?? Maybe wire the armature and field in series?

                          Comment

                          • Mike Burch
                            Senior Member
                            • Sep 2008
                            • 1044

                            #14
                            Originally posted by jim davies
                            Starter armatures usually have a lower resistance than similar armatures found in winches, etc. Also, bushings not bearings. It's easy enough to convert them to bearings, but getting the resistance up, to improve duty cycle and lower amperage?? Maybe wire the armature and field in series?
                            Jim, my understanding of starter motors in general is that they are normally series wound. This means that their speed is essentially ungovernable, and depends entirely on the load they are presented with. In theory their top speed under no-load conditions is limited only by the friction in their bushings. They are also very definitely NOT continuously rated.

                            Comment

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