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airsmith282
10-17-2008, 12:08 AM
any one know how i make a simple but low budget surface grinder

macona
10-17-2008, 12:11 AM
You dont. You find a used one on craigslist.

Search iKrase's past posts...

airsmith282
10-17-2008, 12:17 AM
i gota small shop and i need a small surface grinder are small table to versions availabe or do i need to build a bigger shop with a cement floor :confused:

macona
10-17-2008, 12:24 AM
There are a couple companies that have made smaller 6x12 and 4x8 size grinder. One that comes to mind is Sanford. There has been one locally popping on on CL for the past couple months. Like this one:

http://www.plastikosmd.com/Default.aspx?ContentPageID=53

Even a lot of the B&S and other grinders can be removed from their base and mounted on a bench. I know of someone who has a Chevalier 6x18 and the thing is tiny compared to my 6x18. Everything is in the top half so it could easily come off its sheet metal base and go on a bench.

But... Do you really, really need a surface grinder? They are really messy. Then there are accessories. Form tools, dressers, spin jigs.

Did I mention they are messy? Grit everywhere. I have mine next to my garage door pointing out.

airsmith282
10-17-2008, 12:46 AM
i think its more of a want then a need, iam getting rather adicted to munching metal and i want to learn more and more and so more and more,

i have my 10x18 lathe and i have my 7x20 mill and i got a bench grinder and a vertical band saw thats wood and metal and i got other tools as well just want to learn more and do better things and bigger things.iam also runing out of room fast so i want to get small version machines that would be usfull to me and that will mount on the benchs as well...

macona
10-17-2008, 01:07 AM
If its that small of a shop I would avoid anything that blows abrasive dust everywhere. I would focus on getting a better, more rigid mill first. A better machine will give a better finish that may not need to be ground off.

If you have to remove the bench or make it smaller to fit in a machine with a base. You really wont loose much space with a good machine.

How much space do you have to work with?

ckelloug
10-17-2008, 01:41 AM
Theres a whole bunch at HGRindustrialsurplus in Ohio.

macona
10-17-2008, 02:01 AM
Guess I should bring up how to test a surface grinder. Many tool dealers will place 5 washers on the vise, 1 at each corner and one in the center and then grind both sides, pull out a mic and say "See, it grinds flat". Well this is BS.

All that this tells you is the table is the same distance from the center of the spindle as it passes under the spindle. The ways on surface grinders are often worn in a banana shape. When you grind the vise it follows this track so the surface of the vise is curved as well.

To check out a surface grinder you will need something flat. A surface plate or a good long parallel (18" or longer). Place the plate or parallel on the table and get it close to true with the table. Put an indicator somewhere on the grinding head. I recommend at least a .0005 reading one. Indicate the surface of the plate or parallel and run the table back and forth along each axis. What you are looking for is a nice, linear movement relative to the distance traveled in the axis, unless of course you managed to get the plate perfectly in line with the ways which should read zero movement. So, lets say at one end of the table the indicator is at zero, other end it reading 5. In the center it should read 2.5, 1/4 the way over should be 1.25, etc. If it does not read linearly than the ways are worn and machine will need to be rebuilt.

The spindle is next. Remove the wheel and hub and turn on the spindle. Should be very quiet if it is direct drive and no vibration. Belt drive will be noisier. Use the indicator to indicate the taper on the spindle shaft. There should be no movement in the indicator as you turn the spindle. If it is belt drive take the belts off and spin the spindle and listen for noise.

If its quiet and no runout than you are good to go. If not figure a absolute minimum of $300 for bearings for the spindle.

Changing spindle bearings is no fun. Must be done in a very clean environment. You will probably need special tools like spanners. If the spindle is an integral motor unit you will need an arbor press as well to get the rotor off as the rotor is on a long taper to hold it to the spindle. The grease needed is a special grease Kluber Isoflex NBU15. About $35 for a tube the size of a small toothpaste tube.

airsmith282
10-17-2008, 02:04 AM
auctually the mill i have gives me a great finish, i see so many shops on you tube that have the surface grinders and have read about them a bit as well and woundered if its really needed or not but you know its nice to have a tool that can do a specifice job to if i need to and its also somethingnew to learn as well,,

funny i hated school but i love machining and iam pretty good at it and getting better all the time,

macona
10-17-2008, 03:35 AM
What you dont see is the surface grinder sits unused most of the time. Since I have gotten mine I have barely used it.

KiddZimaHater
10-17-2008, 07:42 AM
Page 58 of Guy Lautard's "Second - Machinist's Bedside Reader" gives plans for a simple surface grinder.
All you need is a motor, arbor, homemade stand, and granite plate.
But, with this setup, you will only be able to remove about .001 of material per pass. :(

JoeFin
10-17-2008, 07:48 AM
Page 58 of Guy Lautard's[B] "But, with this setup, you will only be able to remove about .001 of material per pass. :(

Mine only recommends removing .0014" max. per pass. Finish passes are .0002" or .0001"

BadDog
10-17-2008, 01:15 PM
Page 58 of Guy Lautard's "Second - Machinist's Bedside Reader" gives plans for a simple surface grinder.
All you need is a motor, arbor, homemade stand, and granite plate.
But, with this setup, you will only be able to remove about .001 of material per pass. :(
With Lautard's setup, I think you would be doing good to get 0.0001 per pass. I guess you're talking about his hand setup? Been a long while, but as I recall, he specifically cautions about trying to take any but the smallest cuts.

Mcgyver
10-17-2008, 01:40 PM
i think its more of a want then a need, iam getting rather adicted to munching metal and i want to learn more and more and so more and more,

isn't that the truth, we all share the same affliction. Since its a hobby, there is no requirement to justify with a need....simple want is good enough. That's all a good cave man needs.

do not attempt to make a surface grinder. even if you are the best craftsman in the world, it is just not worth given what they can be had for - and the tolerance required to get good finish are way beyond just about any machine you might try to make. search and read on the subject, you find these thoughts echoed by many experienced guys.

they can produce dust, but I'm a convert from dry to wet grinding and there is no comparison, wet while keep down most of the dust.

I use mine quite a bit, it goes in phases. nice to have, but not a necessity. I do a fair bit of tool making for which it is great and also like to make things out of hot rolled then have them case hardened - in which case it is a necessity....but, is case hardening crucial in a home shop? No. And through scraping or lapping super accurate work can be done without grinding

rather than get bent out shape or try the impossible (make one), let serendipity take over. just like when you buy a new car you all of a sudden see that model everywhere, now that you've declared to yourself you want one, be patient and one will come your way, if you really want it. :D

Mcgyver
10-17-2008, 01:42 PM
Page 58 of Guy Lautard's[B] ".
But, with this setup, you will only be able to remove about .001 of material per pass. :(

how much do you expect to remove with a grinder? that set up Lautard describes (while i love most of his stuff) scares me.

small.planes
10-17-2008, 03:31 PM
What you dont see is the surface grinder sits unused most of the time. Since I have gotten mine I have barely used it.
:) mine is still in the trailer under a tarp...

mind you I did only get it a week ago...

Dave

Who has a J&S 540 waiting for install :D

JoeFin
10-17-2008, 04:15 PM
I got mine at auction for $500

Granted I did have to build the hydrualic pump / tank and the coolant pump / tank, but I am fairly happy with the results. One would be doing theirself a very large favor looking for an "Automatic" (not CNC) grinder. You can while away a large portion of the day just doing simple grinding procedures and being forced to be there cranking the table back and forth for hours can be a pain in the arse

BTW: my grinder is out there grinding away on some parts as I type this message

Teenage_Machinist
10-17-2008, 07:36 PM
I understand that Quorn or other tool and cutter grinders can do surface grinding.


I have been wondering about turning my tiny mill into a surface grinder when I upgrade- No NOT putting a wheel in the spindle, I had the idea to make a Broadley or similar and put it in a large hole bored in the head. This would then be turned sideways, the table ground, leadscrew replaced with rack, the works.

The advantage here is that I get a new mill AND a surface grinder.

lazlo
10-17-2008, 08:05 PM
I understand that Quorn or other tool and cutter grinders can do surface grinding.

Tool and cutter grinders with universal heads can do light surface grinding, but the Quorn, and D.E. Johnson's tool and cutter grinder can't.

Frank Ford
10-17-2008, 08:06 PM
Sanford made a really small surface grinder - here's mine:

http://www.frets.com/HomeShopTech/Projects/HeftyToolPost/heftytoolpost16.jpg

The chuck is a scant 4" wide, and that's absolutely the limit of the table travel.

I found it on eBay, and picked it up locally.

Teenage_Machinist
10-17-2008, 09:55 PM
I wonder how much something like that costs.

Wonder of SEIG will steal my idea some time

lazlo
10-17-2008, 10:15 PM
Wonder of SEIG will steal my idea some time

Maybe not Sieg :D

http://www.hossmachine.info/projects_4.html#surface%20grinder
http://www.youtube.com/v/QIg1qC3wl-E&hl=en&fs=1

macona
10-17-2008, 10:30 PM
Wow, a surface grinder is supposed to be a precision device capable of splitting tenths. He would be lucky to split peas with that...

It would be nice if he didnt have the music blaring in the video so we can see how bad it sounds.

And his travel is still not fast enough. Finish is pretty rough. With those bearings and all that gear noise no surprise.

The chinese do make some grinders, but again, you just cant put in generic deep groove radial balls and get a good grinder. You will still pay $2k for a grinder from china.

J Tiers
10-17-2008, 10:40 PM
You might be better off to get a tool and cutter grinder.......

The are semi-universal, meaning that you can, with suitable setup "stuff", do cylindrical grinding, cutter grinding, and even set it up for some surface grinding, although it won't likely be anywhere near as handy as a purpose made SG...

The other operations are likely to be more useful to most folks, and the "capability" of some surface grinding means that one machine does many possible things..... The reverse, doing all that on a surface grinder, is a bit less convenient, I am told.....

I believe there were plans for a surface grinder in HSM or MW within the last couple of years, but it didn't seem like it would be any better than an old one.... for one thing, I think the bearings specified were basically "pre-worn-out" as far as real grinder specs are concerned...... and it might not be worth getting better ones....

lane
10-17-2008, 10:53 PM
Home Shop Machinist How to build a surface grinder . May June 2006 ran for about 3 issues Small but I see no reason it would not work By Robert Byler Build on and let us know how it works . I had a bunch of ideas on how to improve it .

airsmith282
10-17-2008, 11:09 PM
ok well it seem like a good idea , well i guess ill take some time and build my self a cool vice then for now

loose nut
10-17-2008, 11:24 PM
I have an old book some where that has a picture of a tool post grinder mounted above the cross slide of a small lathe, a table being mounted on the slide to hold the work. That might work for the occasional small job, won't be up to a real surface grinder class work but better than nothing.

Teenage_Machinist
10-17-2008, 11:39 PM
My idea is that I can use the column and head casting from a Seig X1 mill and it could rotate one way for cylindrical, the other for surface grinding. I would NOT use an angle grinder. I am thinking of using a Quorn or Broadley style spindle, with the spindle end turned in it's own bearings and some angular contact bearings. I would probably also use the motor, but belt driven or even direct drive. Vari-speed motor goes up to 4000 RPM, which seems nice. I would replace the leadscrew drive with a rack and pinion, or perhaps a simpler but not as nice belt or rope drive so it can move fast enough. Then I might add a tub and sprayer for wet grinding. There are some pretty small grinders but no mini-lathe equivalent.

oldtiffie
10-18-2008, 12:41 AM
Hi ikrase.

Don't let anything or anyone get you down. Many things are possible. Just take your time and work it out for yourself.

Is this one along the lines you were thinking about?
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=M156

I don't know if it is a Seig or not. Its just that it seems to have the "hall (ear?) marks" of a Seig and was among the small mills of which some were Seig (it is where I got my Seig X3 mill from).

This is their range of surface grinders:
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Surface-Grinders

This is mine:
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=G202

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Surf_Grinder1.jpg

The table runs on balls restrained in a cage and the balls run in "vee" grooves on the base and under the table. The table drive is a spiral gear (pinion) in a rack under the table.

It is a very good machine.

Here are another couple of thoughts for you.

This is my tool & cutter grinder (I have all of the attachments plus others):
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=G196
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/ToolCutter_Grind1.jpg

I use that T&C grinder as a surface grinder and it works very well. Note that the wheel-head is on a column which can pivot left>right as well as raise/lower the wheel assembly which in turn can rotate about a horizontal axis.

The table drive is via a tensioned steel cable fixed to both ends of the table. The wire runs over a drum (like a cable drum or warping drum on a crane or a capstan. It is as smooth as silk and negates the normal requirement for a rack and pinion.

The grinding wheel can be tilted for "face" or "side-wheel" grinding at any angle. It is very easy to "tram in" (like a vertical mill - and for exactly the same reasons as a mill) when I want to use the side of my wheels for vertical flat surfaces. I am in the middle of tramming my surface grinder spindle for the same reasons.

If I were buying my tool and cutter grinder now I might (would!!) buy this later alternative model as it will act as a small cylindrical grinder as well (internal - as in a tool-post grinder) and external.
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=G198

I have a feeling that everything on that T&C grinder would fit onto mine and perhaps my surface grinder.

I don't mean to brag at all. All I am trying to show you is that others may have had your requirements and ambitions and "went for it" and "made it" despite some lack of enthusiastic support and perhaps some nay-saying as well.

Despite the advice of some others, I have no problem at all with not having power/auto feeds on my grinders - "hand" feed is quite OK with me. Also despite the advice of some others, I would NEVER walk away from or take my eye or attention off or away from any machine that was running under a power feed. Others are quite free to do as they like.

As regards "finish". I would be more concerned with accuracy for size and "flat" as most finishes will do most jobs. My surface grinder has balancing wheel-hubs but my T&C grinder does not. Sure, with care the surface grinder is better but with care the unbalanced wheel on the tool & cutter grinder works very well too as regards size and finish. But having said that, due attention should be paid to the spindle balance and bearings, but the tool & cutter grinder is a lot less "fussy". If I were replacing the T&C grinder spindle bearings I'd tend toward the cheaper end of the bearing range as they will do the job for you. Sure, better more expensive bearings might do it a bit better (not really noticeable) and will last longer but I don't think "time/life" is such - or much - of an issue in a HSM shop where it will take years to get 100's of hours "up" let alone 1,000's under "production" loadings.

I hope that this is of some help.

macona
10-18-2008, 03:00 AM
This is the one I picked up this summer. Paid $1200 for it. Knew the spindle bearings were iffy but the table ran darn straight so I went for it. Its an old Reid 618.

It used to have power feed but it was removed but most of the mechanism is still there. Thinking about turning it CNC! ;) Got most of the servo motors I would need! After grinding the chuck I understood why power feed is so popular. My arm was turning to jello!

This machine uses standard plane bearing v way. It is driven by roller chain.

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h228/macona/DSC03668.jpg

http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h228/macona/DSC03681.jpg

barts
10-18-2008, 03:06 AM
I've always used a fresh sheet of 600 wet-dry sandpaper face-up on my granite table...
- Bart

J Tiers
10-18-2008, 10:12 AM
Hi ikrase.

Don't let anything or anyone get you down. Many things are possible. Just take your time and work it out for yourself.



Yep, we all are such horrible nay-sayers.... we just plain suck..... :mad:

The main issue with building machinery is that when one is at the place where one feels it necessary to build a machine that one intends to use, one is usually not very experienced, and so will likely not do as good a job, or will tend to "bite off more than one can chew".... "eyes bigger than stomach".

After you get more experience, you tend to appreciate the effort required, and the difference in results from "good" vs "top notch" construction. Also you tend to want the latter because you have specific tasks in mind. You tend to have gotten beyond the "I'll build the machines now, to save money,and what I really want to do I'll do later" deal.

Frankly, with the same time it will take to do a decent surface grinder, you could scrape and lap etc, an awful lot of parts to a better finish than any but the finest "home built" SG will do.

That is especially true because you will be scraping and lapping quite a number of parts just to BUILD the SG.

Now, if, like Lane, you just WANT to build a machine, like his little bridgeport, go for it, I would hate to discourage anyone from such a thing.

But if the idea is to make a machine that will later be useful to you, I'd save the effort.

Instead, get an SG or T&C that maybe is lacking some accessories, and build the accessories..... You'd have to anyway, even after building the entire rest of the machine, and it should get the "precision machine building" bug at least temporarily out of your system!

JCHannum
10-18-2008, 10:53 AM
The build versus buy argument will go on as long as the import versus old iron argument, and neither will ever be resolved.

The home shop is for the owner to do with as he pleases, and for his own enjoyment, not to satisfy other people's opinions. Whatever you wish to undertake as a project, go for it, enjoy and learn. Just remember to use the appropriate safety precautions in your work and designs.

That said, there have been several posts recently on home built surface grinders. I get the impression that some of those looking for inspiration are looking more for a tool to give a nice finish to their projects rather than a tool capable of precisely removing material in the tenths range.

If this is the case, much simpler machines are required and are quite home-shoppable. I have seen several purpose built machines in commercial shops that use a belt sander or grinder as a base, and add some workholding tooling to provide safe and accurate positioning.

JoeFin
10-18-2008, 01:39 PM
Bottom line is – the original poster has already started on his journey towards a surface grinder.

Once the bug has been planted he will be on the look out and the “Right Tool at the Right Price” will make itself available to him.

Spin Doctor
10-18-2008, 04:35 PM
The question with a surface grinder is just what sort of work are you doing. If it involves form grinding tools, doing small OD work via a spindex and making fixtures that really need to be flat, square and really dead nuts then a SG is indespensable IMO. But building one versus buying even a clapped out one? Better to buy IMO. You already have most of the work done for you in terms of the building the machine. It will just be a matter of re-scraping the ways and maybe new spindle bearings. In terms of a used one I still like Harigs. They can be mounted right on a bench as the stand is just that. A stand and storage cabinet. In terms of construction they are really pretty basic. There are not a lot of parts. Base, Cross-slide, Table Slide, Column, Headstock and Motorized Spindle. Also I would stay away from the ball slide machines.

BadDog
10-18-2008, 04:37 PM
And he'll be lucky if he can stop at one! I started down that path, also considered (very briefly) building one, couldn't find one, found one for "decent" price (certainly not great), then a few months later found another for (if I recall) $50 including Bijur Oiler and Mag Chuck.

S_J_H
10-18-2008, 04:44 PM
I feel I could build a small S.G. that would be very accurate. I do see it as an expensive project though.
If your needs are for smaller model making type projects it is quite doable IMHO.
The larger in size when thinking about building machines from scratch, the more unrealistic it becomes. Nobody is going to build a 3000lb knee mill from scratch.
There are many many fine examples of small custom built bench mills, lathes and even mini Bridgeports. I'm hoping my horizontal line boring mill will be very useful and VERY accurate when finished.
Don't feel you need to make every single part from scratch in your build.
Look for deals on good quality industrial parts, slides etc.
Steve

Norman Atkinson
10-18-2008, 05:05 PM
Excuse me but I have been keeping out of this until now.

The Quorn can act as a surface grinder and Prof. Chaddock explained it. Sorry, I made mine from the 1973 writings in Model Engineer and before the book was written.
Later, the late Philip Amos writing in Model Engineers Workshop, described how he had put part of the Quorn onto a milling machine to act this way.

I think that the small purchase price of the book would clear the misrepresentation which is continuing here.

There is something more about this spindle-- but you'll have to read the book and then make the spindle to make the discovery.

I feel very annoyed to have yet again to say-- your wrong, bloody wrong.

Norman

Teenage_Machinist
10-18-2008, 05:41 PM
Scraping is good. One issue is if your need to grind hard stuff. You cannot scrape too well and even if you are only trying to get a bit better than milling machine accuracy it could be useful.

J Tiers
10-18-2008, 08:02 PM
Excuse me but I have been keeping out of this until now.

The Quorn can act as a surface grinder and Prof. Chaddock explained it.

I think that the small purchase price of the book would clear the misrepresentation which is continuing here.

I feel very annoyed to have yet again to say-- your wrong, bloody wrong.

Norman

Norman, the point has been made that a T&C grinder CAN act as an SG. The Quorn IS more-or-less a T&C grinder, so...........

Will you kindly explain exactly WHERE and WHAT the "misrepresentation" is, and exactly WHO is "bloody wrong".....?

if it is the idea that since the Q can be an SG, it is easy to simply build one.........

I suppose that could be true, IF in the first place the Q were easy to build, and in the second place if the Q had a table like a surface grinder.......

My understanding of it is that it has no "table" as an SG would have...... and that it can take quite a time to build, after which you have "some parts of" an SG.....still requiring the larger parts.

Now, I won't disagree that many parts similar to those in the "Q" would have to be made in any case to make an SG, but they might be made differently if one set out to make an SG or even a general purpose tool and cutter grinder.

I'm not at all sure I see the point........

A whole surface grinder can probably be bought for the price of the castings for the quorn. The OP DID say "low budget".........

Mcgyver
10-18-2008, 09:22 PM
A whole surface grinder can probably be bought for the price of the castings for the quorn.

and that's the bottom line, the inevitable conclusion of build/'buy debate. kind of trumps the whether you can or can't discussion, becomes academic when it just isn't worth it to do so. heck I suppose you you could make your own ball bearings and wire if you insisted. right? :D

oldtiffie
10-19-2008, 12:10 AM
Scraping is good. One issue is if your need to grind hard stuff. You cannot scrape too well and even if you are only trying to get a bit better than milling machine accuracy it could be useful.

Good point ikrase.

Grinding is used if the surface is too hard to cut or work otherwise.

So, just to re-focus.

The requirement as I understand it is more to grind a surface to more or less get a satisfactory level of straightness and flatness.

The "satisfactory" part is fair and square in your court. Now whether you require a surface grinder to meet your requirements may well be another matter altogether. These are neither mutually inclusive nor exclusive nor are they mutually inter-dependent on each other.

In other words, if you require a ground surface that is flat and finished to your requirements, it does not necessarily follow that you need a surface grinder in the generally accepted sense of what a surface grinder is.

It is not necessary to only grind on the surface of the periphery of the wheel nor or is a requirement that the job oscillate laterally under the wheel. At a pinch, there is no reason why the wheel could not be one from a pedestal grinder (emery wheel).

A lot of possibilities open up with a bit of lateral thinking and your requirements and constraints (room/space, cost, time, tool, finish etc).

So let's see what different methods are used in a production shop to achieve a "surface ground finish". These pics might assist - they are by no means representative of the full range of machines but are a good indication of the processes and principles applied toward achieving a satisfactory outcome.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Precision_grinding/Surf_Grinder1-1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Precision_grinding/Surface_Grinder1A.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Precision_grinding/Surf_Grinder2.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Precision_grinding/Surf_Grinder3.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Precision_grinding/Surf_Grinder4.jpg

There is no reason why a small (4") cheap angle grinder cannot supply the wheel and its mounting and motive force.

That grinder need only be mounted with the wheel spindle tilted slightly from the vertical (ie it is set "out of tram" - as on a vertical mill) so that the wheel cuts near the edge of the bottom/flat surface of it. Those grinders spin pretty quickly and will give you adequate surface speed for the wheel at its outer edge.

If you really want to get "flash" you can use a "cup" or "saucer" wheel (aluminium oxide - "normal" grinding - or silicon-carbide - for tungsten-carbide etc.) - like these on a tool=post grinder I bought from Littlemachineshop.com
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=2722&category=
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Tool_Post_Grinder/TPG11.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Tool_Post_Grinder/TPG7.jpg
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Tool_Post_Grinder/TPG6.jpg

Raising and lowering the grinder need not be too accurate at all - just "near enough". The "fine" down-feed could be achieved by a simple "tilting" mechanism incorporated into the grinder clamping/mounting arrangement. Because of the lever-arm ratio, to "fine feed" - which is in fact a "tilt" adjustment - applied near the end of the handle - can get a very fine "feed" at the wheel "cutting" edge.

"Out of tram" and tilt are not big issues if the relative motion between the angle grinder longitudinal axis (ie spindle to handle) is along that axis instead of across it.

The "tilt" or "out of tram" is no big deal even at 5 or 10 degree as it will only be the centre 5 or 10 degree of periphery of the wheel in contact with the job that is of any significance. Don't believe it? Set your mill head to 5 degree tilt, put a dial indicator in the chuck with a "sweep" the same diameter as your grinding wheel (say 4"), lower the head and the indicator to the mill table and "sweep" 5 and 10 degree. The amount of indicator movement is pretty well negligible. So if the grinder "cross-feed" is say 1/8" per "cut" the "curve" in the cut will be so near to flat that in most cases it won't matter.

Remember too, that the motion between the job and the wheel is relative - it does not have to be linear, it can be rotary or anything else. Neither has to be "fixed" as either or both can move relative to the other.

A magnetic chuck is not necessary. Any effective holding device or method is OK - "tool-makers vises" included.

There is no need for the the job to be in a horizontal plane, as it can be vertical or any other that will get the job done.

I am neither prescribing nor mandating nor excluding anything, nor am I ruling anything in or out - that is your prerogative - not mine and not anyone else's.

The "tool" - in this case the "grinder" is only a means to an end and is not necessarily the end in itself - but it can be.

The end at this stage is to get a "surface ground" finish that meets your needs - and not anybody else's.

The "journey" can be as "interesting" as the "destination".

In my experience, you learn a lot about yourself in these circumstances as well as a lot about machines, machining, materials, processes and planning. A good "win" which ever way you look at it. Learning what is "bad" is just as important as learning what is "good" and what "works" and what does'nt.

The results are only limited by your own resources, imagination, ingenuity, self-confidence, ability and willingness to "give it a go".

Norman Atkinson
10-19-2008, 03:06 AM
Jerry,
Apart from anything else, I have cancer and cataracts- and I get grumpy with shortness of time.
Let's clear the air! If the spelling is crap- you have a reason!

I have reapedly asserted that tool and cutter grinders CAN be bought for less than the cost of the castings for home built Quorns, Stents, Kennets etc. Today, one can buy pretty decent T&C's and surface grinders for 5 tanks of English petrol. All things are relative! A motor to drive a home build job will cost that- and the rest is to find.
I am not lecturing but merely reminding all of what I have said earlier.

Again and again, I have written to people here of far simpler home builds than thos listed here.I have, however, sent plans, articles and whatever to a number of people here. Whether they haave done anything about it is arguable but I appear to be one of the few who who has actually built a Quorn and used it. I have a built a Stent and I have now one which someone made from scrap.
Again, I have a Kennet and used it. The early Worden built from a kit is is an in fill rubbish dump- and that is that.
The bastard drove me mad with grit, grit and more bloody grit.
OK, let's turn to the Quorn. It can be built from fabricated bits and two of my club have built excellent examples. One was a damned sight better than Chaddock's. Again, there are Quorns about with far more capabilities than Chaddock ever published. If the 'Quorn' articles published are read- and again, if the original stuff hasn't, I have serious doubts that that anyone has ' voted on the amendment'

Time and time again, I have said that the Quorn spindle might well be old hat but it is far superior to the ones found elsewhere. Chaddock was not quite the village idiot that is infered here. He opened up the Quorn capabilities to include die grinding. Where does that appear elsewhere?

Let's move on. I have in the past suggested that if people are strapped for cash, they can made perfectly acceptable tools out of bar metal. If they are strapped for tooling- and it suggests that many have some gimcrack stuff, the tool and cutter grinder can be made of cheap, nasty and Chinese proprietory items. John has discussed and I have actually made on up -for sheer bloody peversity.

I am running out of what my eyes are capable of. I am not the only guy who has done all this. There have been plenty of others who have made and published and published on totally different stuff.

It does require attention to detail. It does require the knowledge not to raise side issues about ball handles and 'the tide tables in HongKong harbour'
For the most part grinding an end mill or lathe tool or drill requires a sweep over a stone of less than half an inch.

Half an inch- think about it! If you can't get your head aroundsomething as classically simple as that- we ought to give up= and take up pocket billiards

End of story

Norm

oldtiffie
10-19-2008, 07:57 AM
Macona and others advice regarding grit flying around is all too true - it gets every where!!

But if you hang a wet cloth in the spark/grit path, the wet cloth will capture a lot, but not all of it - but still air is required.

It may well be a problem in a small shop.

When I am grinding, if I cannot move the grinding job out of the shop onto the concrete apron on my car-port or better still, further out/away on the gravel, I cover all of my machines with a Painters Drop-sheet (linen/cotton - NOT smooth-face plastic!!!)) which works well too. I close my roller door as well to stop grit coming back in. But the drop-sheets needs to be shaken out away from the machines.

Fairly obviously, I have to use my surface ans T&C grinders in the shop, but all other (except the pedestal grinder - which is near the roller door) is done on a portable stand/bench either on the concrete apron or the gravel. Same with welding and plasma cutting.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Machine_Covers1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Weld_earth%20Triton/Weld_earth6.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Weld_earth%20Triton/Weld_earth11.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Weld_earth%20Triton/Weld_earth13.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Weld_earth%20Triton/Weld_earth14.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Shed-ext2.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Shed-ext3.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Shed-ext1.jpg

My surface and T&C grinders only get occasional use as they are a PITA to get ready and set up for as well as cleaning up afterward. But they are VERY handy when needed.

If you can transport your grinder outside the shop on a mobile bench you will be much better off.

They are very heavy. According to the specs on my supplier's web page mine weighs 515Kg which is just over 1/2 a ton!! I find that very hard to believe.
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=G202

I think it must be 515 pounds which is ~230 pound - or perhaps it is 230Kg.

I checked my T&C grinder and it only weighs 160Kg
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=G196

What-ever - but both are too heavy to lift by hand although they can be moved around the steel bench they are on with a lot of effort. I need a crane-hoist and a mobile raise-lower platform to move my machines about and mine are not big or heavy for these types of machine by any means.

Mark McGrath
10-19-2008, 09:39 AM
J Tiers stated
"Norman, the point has been made that a T&C grinder CAN act as an SG. The Quorn IS more-or-less a T&C grinder, so...........

Will you kindly explain exactly WHERE and WHAT the "misrepresentation" is, and exactly WHO is "bloody wrong".....?"

Suggest you look at post number 19.
Mark.

Your Old Dog
10-19-2008, 10:16 AM
Haven't read the entire thread here but doubt anyone advanced the idea.

Once read where a guy made a router tool for his wood shop out of his door to the shop. He put a horizontal piece off the door near the door knob and a connecting rod from the top of the door out to the router. As he swung the door the router moved with it.

Couldn't something be done similar to this for a poor..... okay, a dirt poor mans grinder? :D

Another idea for the dirt poor machinist would be to make two angle iron rails parallel to each other with vertical bolts on each end to adjust in the Z. To this attach a sled to mount the grinder to and then slide the sled along the rails hovering over the work to be dressed. I've used this principle on my wood lathe to make flutes in table legs.

J Tiers
10-19-2008, 10:43 AM
It does require attention to detail. It does require the knowledge not to raise side issues about ball handles and 'the tide tables in HongKong harbour'
For the most part grinding an end mill or lathe tool or drill requires a sweep over a stone of less than half an inch.

Half an inch- think about it! If you can't get your head aroundsomething as classically simple as that- we ought to give up= and take up pocket billiards

End of story

Norm

Less than half an inch? Most of the end mills I have are at LEAST 19mm long as to the sharp portion.......

And of course that falls far short of the requirements for any sort of serious surface grinding, even of watch parts.



It does require the knowledge not to raise side issues about ball handles and 'the tide tables

Side issues? The quorn is all over handles and stuff like a hedgehog.....adjustments all over, each requiring to be made and made right. Seems to be a lot more complicated than a standard US T&C grinder, which can do things that the quorn cannot, as well as what it CAN do.

What it comes down to is that you need to build a good spindle, and then arrange a suitable table to slide under it. Perhaps the spindle from the quorn might be a usable beginning point for the design. maybe not, too. Obviously most of the quorn is not useful for a surface grinder.



Suggest you look at post number 19.
Mark.

So what?

That statement is correct, according to the info on quorn I have. Obviously it cannot be the "misrepresentation" referred to.

Now, if you want to say that "part of a quorn along with all of another machine can do surface grinding when used together", that would seem to be a true statement.

Suggest YOU (and Norman) look (again) at post #38


Later, the late Philip Amos writing in Model Engineers Workshop, described how he had put part of the quorn onto a milling machine to act this way.

if the unadorned quorn can be a surface grinder, then why would anyone (at least anyone who Norman would mention favorably) do that?

As for the book, I am NOT going to buy a book on the quorn. I have absolutely no interest in building a quorn, I do not need to join a new religion.

Now, the dear old Prof was no doubt a smart fellow... and the quorn may be pretty nice, for amateur use, "home-made", in 1955 or whenever. But it's a lot of trouble to go to for a grinder. A decent grinder can be had, used, for less than the castings, let alone the book.

I am fairly certain that there are better references on spindle design also.


and that's the bottom line, the inevitable conclusion of build/'buy debate. kind of trumps the whether you can or can't discussion, becomes academic when it just isn't worth it to do so. heck I suppose you you could make your own ball bearings and wire if you insisted. right?

lane
10-19-2008, 12:18 PM
Their is no way you will surface grind with this.
http://www.cp-tel.net/mary/LanesPhotos/LQuorn6.JPG
Sorry i disagree with Norm.

dp
10-19-2008, 02:24 PM
Their is no way you will surface grind with this.
http://www.cp-tel.net/mary/LanesPhotos/LQuorn6.JPG
Sorry i disagree with Norm.

I easily solved the problem of using one of my radial arm saws as a surface grinder. Given a Quorn I have no doubt I can solve the problems it brings. But - there is no way I'd consider either solution if the requirement is 0.0005" or better which in my case it was not.

In my case it would be better to refer to the result as a more than adequate, very versatile grinder with x-y table capability that just happens to be able to produce a nice surface.

Norman Atkinson
10-19-2008, 02:43 PM
Gentlemen,
someome in another forum writes the following-- RTFM. Of course, I have no idea what it could possibly mean.

The Quorn ball handles issue is easily overcome. One suggestion was using reject balls out of mice. Another was to buy plastic ones and use conventional fixings whilst another was to use the locking levers. Having had a rather nasty bit of surgery, I feel that the mice should be left to their own devices.

Now the spindle. Actually, when one reads the F****** Manual , Chaddock put it in because his or better RPH designed it go up to 11,000rpm to do dies with points. He simply unshipped the pulley for a big one made out of plywood. Back to the manual- sorry! The recent Quorns have been seen with 3 pulleys- plus this rather big wheel as mentioned.

Coming to the surface grinding, Chaddock did use his for small items - and it is all in the manual.
This was 1973 and developments have come in thick and fast, Phillip Amos took the Quorn and over a series of issues described his modifications/improvements but in Model Engineers Workshop.
One of the mods was to take- Lane- the Mark One headstock and inverted it on a milling machine using a stub of 1 1/4" round rod in the mill chuck.

For those who haven't bothered to carefully read up, have missed the simplicity which the original design offered.

As an interesting aside, did anyone notice what Chaddock actually made using homemade tools from the Quorn which was made entirely on a cranky pre-war 7" swing lathe.

Believe me, I did carefully research before the comments were made. Somehow, I think that someone should put up the final result. It's in the SMEEE collection.
Nothing off that quality in all my years posting here.
Oops, what have I said

Norm

Alistair Hosie
10-19-2008, 02:45 PM
I asked this before when this question came up and ghot no answer then so I ask again whay can't a grinding wheel be fitted to a milling machine with drives to the x axis surely this would do a good job.??Alistair

Norman Atkinson
10-19-2008, 03:09 PM
Grit, GRit, GRIt, GRIT!

Without going back again- read my post

Teenage_Machinist
10-19-2008, 03:32 PM
I have seen the mill+cup wheel tried before. Grit is a big problem that could in part be solved by completely enclosing the mill in a garbage bag exposing only the work and the spindle (Cover the quill!) However 1 most mills do not go fast enough usually 3600 rpm which might work with large wheels but would be a problem.. 2 the grit, again (notably the Quorn lacks grit-blockers but way covers are easy for rods) 3 traverse Surface grinders need to go really fast. A CNC machine on rapid traverse might not be enough. And also there is the tramming issue. A mill is just different and they are not too easy to interchange. 4 a surface grinder needs good bearings (hecka expensive) or you can turn the spindle in it's own bearings. Mills may not have the good bearings, and they may vibrate too much.

I recommend trying the radial arm saw or duct tape an angle grinder though, Or use your tool post grinder. All of these are low buck, indeterminate bang. If you want something that is the equal of your mill, gives a smooth finish, and is reasonably precise, they might work. If you need to make meticulously flat and paralel surfaces, learn to scrape. Small surface plates are under 20 USD.

I have figured out a way by which a Seig X1 mill could be used as the castings for a surface grinder. Some day I will upgrade and that might just be what I do with the old mill. The thing would be stripped, ways re-scraped, and a large flat area millled where the column attaches, a thick steel plate welded/bolted there, and then the column would be attached, but off to the side, and sideways, so that the head sticks out to the right, but is offset so that the spot right next to the column on the head is over the table. It could then have the head put on a face plate on the lathe, and a hole bored through. This would receive a Quorn, Broadley, or any other spindle that will fit in a hole. I am thinking of using a TP grinder appearing in a book at my school. The vari-speed motor from the micromill would then be used to drive the spindle though a belt. If the work was to be cylindrically ground centers would be placed on the bed and the head rotated. The table leadscrew would be replaced with a wire drive.

J Tiers
10-19-2008, 03:47 PM
Norman.........

RTFM or not, if one wants a surface grinder, and they are available used for cheap, sometimes almost for the taking, Why would ANYONE with sense, who wanted an SG, go off on a tangent and build a Qom , sorry, I mean Quorn?

Even a beat-on SG will make a fairly flat surface that looks ground..... possibly at least an order of magnitude better than most home-made SGs, radial arm saws, etc. (and that means 3.2 times better...)

Ball handles are easily solved by not MAKING the f..ing ball handles, and using any sort of kludge one wants to and can stand looking at. That is intuitively obvious to the most casual observer. If you want to make a proper Qom (sorry, Quorn) you Do have to make the ball handles, of course.......

As far as I can see, the Qom (sorry, Quorn) is a religion, not a machine. If you are "of the faith" you have built one, preferably over 10 years or so with an 1890's treadle lathe and a file. Otherwise you are a heathen, an infidel dog, who insults the name of the Prophet.

Merely BUYING one complete is simply not acceptable to the faithful.

Me, I am happy to be that kind of heathen, and when I need an SG I shall buy a suitable version. or use my T&C.

dp
10-19-2008, 04:00 PM
I've always wondered about the Quorn ball handle situation. Gives the machine a "bad hair day" look. They're attached to machine screws, so all you need is machine screws without the ball handles. From a practical standpoint I find such handles useful for high traffic adjustments. Never used a Quorn so don't know what the traffic pattern is, but I have to think for some of them a small handle modeled after a Kurt vise handle would be adequate while improving the Quorn's quoif.

There is a project on the web I found interesting but messy and the author agrees - too many handles getting in the way: http://homepage3.nifty.com/amigos/grinder_guide/grinding_rest-e.htm

S_J_H
10-19-2008, 04:38 PM
If I were to build a small SG I would start out with a granite surface plate for the base. These are cheap, flat as can be and plenty rigid. Linear rails would be installed on the surface plate for the x-axis.
Use linear trucks with dual wipers and way covers for grit control. A coarse pitch ballscrew will allow very fast speeds. Y-axis similar to how I did my cnc lathe.

Next a mini mill dovetail column to be bolted to the surface plate with a good leadscrew drive for the spindle head. This will need additional bracing.
The spindle of course is going to require the most attention.
Once that is setup then grind the table flat.

I see the total cost coming in around 1000$ in parts if bought new.
The machine would be small, but quite accurate and capable of doing small modeling parts, tool holders et.. This build IMHO would be for the journey and pride of making a machine from scratch since you can pickup a real 6x18 for under that price used.

Steve

Norman Atkinson
10-19-2008, 05:26 PM
Jerry,
But I have already written about cheap tooling and things like Clarksons for $200 . I have one.
However, many would be grinder folks have not the room for a surface grinder. way back in the dark ages, i wrote up about a Small Herbert grinder and doing up a Myford. It's in MEW. The big issues are size and in 1973. cost of industrial tooling.
However, many have written to me saying that even a Clarkson is too big for their workshop. So what does one do?

Here, now I really am sticking my scrawny neck out, Ikase cannot get a Quorn onto his lathe to machine it!
I'll happily apologise but that's my guess.
With tongue in ancient gums, I know what could be made on such a small lathe.

Perhaps, someone else might correct me.

Oddly, I have the manual

Norm

oldtiffie
10-19-2008, 05:27 PM
Steve,
you are getting there.

One "rough and ready" solution to a similar matter was with a solid base with one angle-iron and one flat bar (any metal - brass or aluminium preferred but steel is OK) set with the angle-iron "point up" and a flat "bar". It had a "saddle?" with rollers with a "vee" for the angle-iron and flat rollers for the "flat bar" so that it was similar to a lathe-bed as regards the "vee" and "flat" ways but similar to a grinder with the rollers. That was the "Y" travel.

The "X" was similar on the top of the "saddle" and under the "table".

I forget how the wheel was mounted and the vertical travel and adjustment was provided.

As the table "X" and "Y" are not often required to be accurate as regards travel, lead-screws could be eliminated and the drives provided by way of a "cable and capstan" (or even a chain and sprocket) and hand-wheels would do. I have the "cable and capstan" set-up on my T&C grinder "X" drive and it is very simple and effective. I can't see why a lever-arm type wouldn't work either.

DP's radial arm saw down-feed or similar could be ideal for the column. I am not so sure about the radial arm as it might deflect "dive"? under load as the cantilever arm varied - unless the "out-board" end was well enough supported - some sort of gantry perhaps?

But back to the matter of "grit" for a moment. I notice that as my surface and T&C grinder spindles rotate so relatively slowly (~3,000 RPM) that the wheels act as if they are very "soft" and lose a lot more "wheel" and so cause more "grit" than might be the case if they were spinning at least twice as fast.

Norm,
The Quorn, as I understand, is a tool & cutter grinder only.

I think that Lane had put "paid" to using the Quorn as a surface grinder in his post.

Their is no way you will surface grind with this.
http://www.cp-tel.net/mary/LanesPhotos/LQuorn6.JPG
Sorry i disagree with Norm.

Even if all of this comes to nothing as regards making a surface grinder, it has had big benefits as it has become a pretty good "brain-storming" and "group-participation" thread hopefully with some ideas that someone might use somewhere else or on something else and will hopefully post on future threads.

dp
10-19-2008, 07:01 PM
DP's radial arm saw down-feed or similar could be ideal for the column. I am not so sure about the radial arm as it might deflect "dive"? under load as the cantilever arm varied - unless the "out-board" end was well enough supported - some sort of gantry perhaps?

In my case I use a support arm at the extremity of the RAS arm much like a horizontal mill or shaper table has, and for the same purpose.

The motor is anchored in place and the work is passed under or along side the wheel with an xy table and I believe you have a similar one.

When the motor shaft is vertical different forces come into play and things are much more rigid than with the motor shaft horizontal. The nice thing is, of course, you can set the motor to any angle and do things that are otherwise difficult with other grinders. You can also grind arcs by anchoring the motor and swinging the arm.

One thing I've not done is try wetting the work as the table is MDF. I've looked at making a steel or aluminum top for it and have a good option there but am in the process of moving and will have no time to play for some while.

lazlo
10-19-2008, 07:21 PM
Norm,
The Quorn, as I understand, is a tool & cutter grinder only

I was the one who posted that the Quorn can't be used as a surface grinder, and if you look at the design, it's pretty self-evident. There's no bed, no table to clamp a workpiece to, and there's no feed mechanism:

http://www.duncanamps.com/metal/images/quorn_view1.gif

The Stent, by contrast (another T&C Grinder kit which Norm has also built), has a t-slotted table with a rack and pinion feed, and can be used a miniature surface grinder.

J Tiers
10-19-2008, 08:10 PM
But back to the matter of "grit" for a moment. I notice that as my surface and T&C grinder spindles rotate so relatively slowly (~3,000 RPM) that the wheels act as if they are very "soft" and lose a lot more "wheel" and so cause more "grit" than might be the case if they were spinning at least twice as fast.


If I am not mistaken, the RPM on any grinder is really set by the desired surface speed, which generally is about 1.6 km/minute or a bit more, say 4500 to 6500 fpm.

Running much faster is over the wheel speed, (plus maybe other issues) and running slower is inefficient as you mention for the wheel.

I seem to recall though that the typical small cup wheel speed is around 3450 rpm, i.e. typical US motor speed for a two pole motor, and with a 5" wheel that works out to a bit under 1.6 km/minute, "in the zone" but on the lower side.

For a larger wheel, such as 7", that rpm would be instead on the high side, but still in the accepted area.

I don't know that I would like to run wheels of that size at 2x, which would be 12,000 rpm, or 9000 rpm......... which I DO understand you didn't intend......

Probably with 50 Hz power, the resulting rpm of 2875 or so with a cup wheel would be too slow, at only 3700 fpm, or just a bit over 1 km/min

Teenage_Machinist
10-19-2008, 10:03 PM
WTF? My lathe has a larger swing than a myford?


Oh god, not this again!

oldtiffie
10-19-2008, 10:59 PM
I was the one who posted that the Quorn can't be used as a surface grinder, and if you look at the design, it's pretty self-evident. There's no bed, no table to clamp a workpiece to, and there's no feed mechanism:

http://www.duncanamps.com/metal/images/quorn_view1.gif

The Stent, by contrast (another T&C Grinder kit which Norm has also built), has a t-slotted table with a rack and pinion feed, and can be used a miniature surface grinder.

Thanks lazlo.

That pic sort of sorted it out - as did lane's at:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=388247&postcount=48

ie

Their is no way you will surface grind with this.
http://www.cp-tel.net/mary/LanesPhotos/LQuorn6.JPG
Sorry i disagree with Norm.

But having "come up with the goods" (so to speak) with the Quorn, can you find and post a couple of pics of the Stent grinder please?

These might be a start:
http://www.petespockets.co.uk/engineering/projects/StentTCG/StentKit.php

http://www.homepages.mcb.net/howe/WorkshopTools.htm

http://www.aonx97.dsl.pipex.com/WS-page/wshpage.htm

http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/alanhopwood/

http://www.google.com.au/search?hl=en&q=stent+grinder&btnG=Google+Search&meta=

etc.

Norman Atkinson
10-20-2008, 01:22 AM
We are getting to a point where i should be shouting 'Plagiarism' because I wrote about the then newer economic phenomenon of cheap former industrial tools to replace the amateur stuff.
i looked at some of my records and noted that I had prattled and gone to press about doing up a Myford for a friend and had used a Herbert Junior grinder. It cost less than $400. It was sold simply because I was, with old age moving to a smaller house. Sorry, I was there! Again, I got flamed for tangling with the league of those who could afford to buy Quorns but couldn't build them. I wrote then of the Stent and Lazlo got the metric drawings along with a whole raft of other findings.
The important issue is that I acknowledged how a friend had developed and added to his short base Stent. Today, someone has picked my old mate's brains and gone to press!

Again, I have written several times about how I was building a second Stent but a professional Clarkson arrived for $200.

So I now have people who are now telling me how to suck eggs. Sorry, not acceptable.

What has to be said is that I have put the information on the net for people to use freely. I want people to benefit from what others have done in the past. I had the decency to always acknowledge my sources.

Perhaps, this is the way of things now. It is never going to be mine.

Norman Atkinson

batt-man
10-20-2008, 03:18 AM
Has anyone ried the idea in the book "the shop wisdom of philip duclos" ?

In a nutshell he builds an attachment for a vertical mill that is clamped into a collet and powered from a motor connected via a flexible shaft.

I'd guess it's not going to compare to a "real" surface grinder but for the average HSM'er maybe good enough?

Cheers
Batt

Norman Atkinson
10-20-2008, 03:30 AM
Batt Man,
I have already mentioned that Phillip Amos fitted a bit of his Quorn into a vertical mill.
Going back furtherm MES ie Model Engineering Services of Quorn and Kennet repute made a small vertical grinder to perate like the bigger Blanchards by people like Lumsden's of old. OK, I have the chief draughtsman's paintings ion my walls etc but but in more recent times Model engineer or ME Workshop had a design for a swing tool machine using a grinder. John S has mentioned that he has something similar. Mine is ready for Jack The Scrap.

The important thing is that we are inventing the wheel for the n'th time.

Please, please, please get with it.

There are dozens of fairly capable descriptions both on the net and in books.

Can we please move on-- into the realms beyond Leonardo Da Vinci? Move on, move!

Norm

Mark McGrath
10-20-2008, 05:20 AM
"J Tiers
Quote:
Suggest you look at post number 19.
Mark.

So what?

That statement is correct, according to the info on quorn I have. Obviously it cannot be the "misrepresentation" referred to.

Now, if you want to say that "part of a quorn along with all of another machine can do surface grinding when used together", that would seem to be a true statement.

Suggest YOU (and Norman) look (again) at post #38"

I was not arguing the point of whether you could surface grind on a Quorn or not,I was only answering your question as to where it had been stated previously,when you called Norman a liar because YOU had not read the post where it had been said.
YOU in a hurry to argue for the sake of arguing (which you state elsewhere is one of your favourite hobbies) just jump in there and start shouting.It would help if you were to actually read the posts before doing so.
Mark.

oldtiffie
10-20-2008, 05:42 AM
I don't care how often a subject is mentioned as all too often it informs someone who either hasn't seen it before or else has something new to contribute by way of a question or a suggestion.

There is nothing new or wrong with commenting on, or ignoring, something which is and has been in the public domain for any length of time.

I see nothing wrong with repeatedly going back to first principles and re-developing a machine, method or function.

I can see little point in quoting books etc. which the reader has no access to at the time. Quoting themn as "texts" almosts puts them into the realm of "Gospel" of which there is none in machining that I am aware of.

I suggest that some who seem more interested in an/the argument and "sticking it into or up" their opponents pursue it by PM and re-join the discussion when they have deflated their chests and egos (and their dicks too?).

I daresay that some at least are more interested inthe substance of the thread and its basic topic.

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/machine-gun-cat-animation.gif

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Rambo1-1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/4_stages_in_life.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Funnies/Life_in_oldies_after_all.gif

Alistair Hosie
10-20-2008, 01:15 PM
Re the grit problem surely if you are using this as a get out of a hole temporary problem solver with plenty of cloths down it would be ok.I am suroprised that some advocate the use of a t and c grinder for surface grinding as young tiffe said they are two very different machines.Alistair

Mcgyver
10-20-2008, 01:32 PM
Re the grit problem surely if you are using this as a get out of a hole temporary problem solver with plenty of cloths down it would be ok.I am suroprised that some advocate the use of a t and c grinder for surface grinding as young tiffe said they are two very different machines.Alistair

the T&C grinder is protected for grit, and OT's reason is just one of many. I'd add table traverses too slowly, stiction of table creates motion that not smooth enough, lack of precision Z feed, spindles meant for brute force and lower speeds than a grinder's high speed low force very precise environment, and I'm sure there are more. a T&CG isn't challenged by most of these, although the z axis control likely isn't as fine, at least on ones I've seen

Limy Sami
10-20-2008, 05:28 PM
As one who's built and used a Quorn for 15 years, sometimes on applications the late prof never even dreamed of.

IT IS A SMALL MACHINE! but I can confirm that WITHIN IT'S LIMITS it is a capable machine, with the spindle probably being the best part of the design.

Building a Quorn isn't actually that difficult, more a job that requires patience and care to get it right.

As for the ball handle argument, if you've never used them I susggest;- don't knock it until you try it, and as far as making them goes, they must surely be the #1 reason for the load of BS that always flies about regarding the Quorn.

dp
10-20-2008, 05:41 PM
Sami - do you know what the process is for creating the spiral in the post? I've always wondered about that part of the fabrication far more than the ball handles.

Limy Sami
10-20-2008, 05:55 PM
I bought mine already machined - very reasonable £ as part of the set of castings. But IIRC the prof used an end mill in a cutter spindle in the lathe toolpost and the gear train set to the pitch, being a small lathe he drove the spindle by turning the leadscrew.

lazlo
10-20-2008, 05:57 PM
But IIRC the prof used an end mill in a cutter spindle in the lathe toolpost and the gear train set to the pitch, being a small lathe he drove the spindle by turning the leadscrew.

That's how Prof. Chaddock explains it in the original Model Engineer articles. He cut that 1 TPI square thread on a little Drummond lathe, if you can believe it.

Norman Atkinson
10-20-2008, 06:42 PM
Limy Sami is quite correct about constructing the Quorn.
What is far more difficult is not the ball handles but having the additional tooling to hand to do the dividing and graduating and doing the line boring of the bed bars and the vertical column. Again, it is quite challenging to have to split the castings and on number One Quorn- there was Number TWO, the horrid bastards nipped up! OK, I sorted it out- and almost got expelled from Quorn Owners. Naughty Norm- you are not supposed to tell the truth!
Those who have built a Quorn or a Stent will admit just how much of a learning curve that they have been on.
I had old George Thomas to help my faltering steps. Chaddock and Thomas, I guessed were in something a bit different to SMEE- said he slightly inebriated from an evening with the Oriental Royal Arch Chapter 9371.

To add a bit, the Stent will take a magnetic table. The Quorn will do limited grinding. And Alistair, grit and flyiing around abrasiive wheels and damp clothes??????
Not quite Health and Safety standards, old boy. A Quorn walloping around at 7400 rpm or 11, 000( oh, yes)
well, it's one way to make headlines! Alistair, really?????

Must get out of my morning suit and wescoat.
Night All!

Norm

Mark McGrath
10-20-2008, 06:47 PM
"
That's how Prof. Chaddock explains it in the original Model Engineer articles. He cut that 1 TPI square thread on a little Drummond lathe, if you can believe it."

I think I would believe it.In these days there were not a lot of options for someone wanting to make stuff like this at home and some of these guys produced some beautiful stuff on a Myford with a few accessories which they mainly made themselves.There were no cheap imports then and over here there was no cheap industrial stuff like there is now.
I remember about nearly forty years ago fitting a gearmotor to the non drive end of the leadscrew on a big Binns and Berry lathe so the machine shop could cut a coarse square thread in the same way that was outwith the limits of the machine the conventional way.
I too have all the original ME articles on the building of the Quorn and although I enjoy reading them I would never dream of tackling it,even with all the cnc machinery I have.Better machines are available to buy cheap.
Mark.

lane
10-20-2008, 08:14 PM
Norm you might buy a surface grinder are tool and cutter grinder on your side of the pond for $250.00 . But on this side if you do it is all wore out and in my part of the country nothing less than $4000.00 for any thing usable May be some on north east coast but never been their . This is a big country . You could put the British Ilse in Texas alone and still have room for Texans. Besides how did we get off on Quorn again .this first fellow wanted to build a surface grinder. We are way off track . Some one tell the man how to build a surface grinder .That WAS the question. I would but cant type fast enough. It aint that hard been their and done that 20 years ago. The funny thing was it worked.

Teenage_Machinist
10-20-2008, 08:58 PM
I guess less imports=no destroyed industry turning out cheap used tools.

J Tiers
10-20-2008, 09:01 PM
when you called Norman a liar


I did no such damn thing, and you WILL apologize, bloody double quick at that..

I've no idea why you need to be so offensive.



YOU in a hurry to argue for the sake of arguing (which you state elsewhere is one of your favourite hobbies) just jump in there and start shouting.It would help if you were to actually read the posts before doing so.
Mark.


I read with what I believed was reasonable care. AND I saw that bit......

It STILL was no help with Norman's crossword puzzle reply.....
YOU may notice that Ol' Norman made no specific reference, although I suppose obscure statements might be expected from his address by now. Perhaps HE thinks it was clear.

For all we know he might be, as it seemed, referring to EVERYONE as being wrong. Enough other folks were in it already......

I inquired because it was too obscure for any one to have to decipher....

I would not call him a liar, since I am equally capable of obscure references, and also because I don't think he IS a liar. I may grump at him, but I like Norman. In some ways he is one of the most human of any on the forum. A "mensch", if you will.....

oldtiffie
10-20-2008, 09:05 PM
Re the grit problem surely if you are using this as a get out of a hole temporary problem solver with plenty of cloths down it would be ok.I am suroprised that some advocate the use of a t and c grinder for surface grinding as young tiffe said they are two very different machines.Alistair


the T&C grinder is protected for grit, and OT's reason is just one of many. I'd add table traverses too slowly, stiction of table creates motion that not smooth enough, lack of precision Z feed, spindles meant for brute force and lower speeds than a grinder's high speed low force very precise environment, and I'm sure there are more. a T&CG isn't challenged by most of these, although the z axis control likely isn't as fine, at least on ones I've seen

Thanks Alistair and Mcgyver as both raise some issues that are important.

I really can't speak for anyone else or anyone else's shop or machines - just for me and my shop the way it is and the way I operate (in) it.

First of all, any grinding in the shop is inherently "dirty" - its only a matter of degree between machines and how they are used. I include pedestal and angle grinders as well for the same reasons.

Probably, the "cleanest" would be a slow-revving "wet wheel" grinder that runs with the bottom of the wheel in a coolant tank. This is used by wood-workers and some here to grind tools slowly to a very fine face and edges. The next would be a surface grinder cutting on its periphery with all guards up and with the "suds" on and flowing as the suds "catch" and "take away" (to the coolant tank!!) a lot but certainly not all "grindings".

Angle grinding is about the dirtiest closely followed by the normal pedestal grinder.

The T&C grinder is pretty "dirty" as by its nature it often has to use "cup" and "saucer" wheels on the "lip" and cannot be "shielded" or "guarded" due to the tight spaces that it operates in. It throws grindings everywhere when sharpening lathe tools, end-milling cutters, side and face cutters, shell-mills (both on the ends and the periphery), gear/form cutters etc. It is a big list and hard to "guard" against grit being thrown everywhere. Some have fitted vaccuum hoses and nozzles but they are of limited use and quite often, just a hindrance.

The big problem with surface grinders and coolants is not so much the "grindings" for reasons given previously, but the related problem of aerosols (suspended liquid/vapour particles) that get air-borne and float off everywhere at pretty high velocities!!

The big problem with T&C grinders is that the operator quite often has to almost work right over the wheel to see what is going on and is in the path or cloud of residue from the grinding wheels (aluminium oxide, silicon carbide, cubic boron and diamond etc.) as well as part/job residues (steel, tungsten carbide etc.) all of which don't always go well with safety goggles and respirators or air filters.

Its all too easy to get this stuff into nasal cavities, eyes and the mouth. Not good.

I can't generalise as regards the problems with using a T&G grinder as posted by Mcgyver:

the T&C grinder is protected for grit, and OT's reason is just one of many. I'd add table traverses too slowly, stiction of table creates motion that not smooth enough, lack of precision Z feed, spindles meant for brute force and lower speeds than a grinder's high speed low force very precise environment, and I'm sure there are more. a T&CG isn't challenged by most of these, although the z axis control likely isn't as fine, at least on ones I've seen

That may well be the case for many T&C grinders. It is not the case with or for mine as it works just about as well as my surface grinder. Have a look at these pics:

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Drill_grinder1-1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Drill_grinder2.jpg

The general specifications are here:
http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=G196

The "X" feed is as good as my surface grinder and I have a separate magnetic chuck for it.

The "X" position is controlled by the two "micrometer spindle/thimble" types of stops as shown. The calibration is 0.02mm (0.0008").

The "Y" feed dial is calibrated to 0.02mm (0.0008") as is the down-feed ("Z") on the column. I can easily "quarter" that by eye on the dials and so get to indicated/dial settings of 0.0008"/4 = 0.0002" which is not "rough" by any measure. If I want to be really accurate (rarely needed), I can and will use a good dial test indicator (DTI).

My SG and T&G grinders can take 7" wheels for surface grinding. Each does a good job - the SG in particular as is to be expected - when surface grinding.

Most good grinding wheels - particularly for "Tool Room" grinder use - are very well balanced as supplied - "Norton" is very good. My wheel hubs on my SG are "balancing hubs" but my T&C grinder wheel hub is not. Both have "Tool Room" grinder bores of 1 1/4" (31.75mm).

The most important part I find is keeping the wheels correctly "dressed" and sharp.

But back to the theme of the thread and the OP.

It is the principles of the T&G that are important. The "mechanics" of "getting there" are a separate but related issue. If a method meets the requirements of the operator/owner, that is all that matters in his case.

There may be, say, ten different methods but if they all "do the job" they are all successful. It is only a matter of how "successful" the operator requires that is important.

Mine are successful for me as they are well able to meet - and exceed!! - my requirements.

My requirements are more for "grinding hard stuff" and "finish" than for absolute accuracy, but on the occasions that that sort of accuracy is needed, I can do it relatively easily.

Surface and T&G grinders are a PITA to get ready for, to set up and to clean up for afterward and so they are quite often a method of grinding of last resort and don't get much use at all. I can do pretty well on the side and face of a pedestal grinder as I was trained that way and have kept those skills "up" ever since over many years.

lane
10-20-2008, 09:46 PM
Oldtiffie if you haven`t tried them yet get you some Chinese CBN wheels for your cutter grinder . A cup and a dish at least . I guarantee you want go back to rock wheels I rounded up of e-bay a bunch of rock wheels then got some diamond and CBN wheel All I use now are the CBN you get some dust but not near the mess as you get with regular wheels and you can just brush it off with a paint brush . beside they grind a whole lot better and you dont have to dress to keep sharp. Best thing since sliced bread.

oldtiffie
10-20-2008, 10:27 PM
Norm you might buy a surface grinder are tool and cutter grinder on your side of the pond for $250.00 . But on this side if you do it is all wore out and in my part of the country nothing less than $4000.00 for any thing usable May be some on north east coast but never been their . This is a big country . You could put the British Ilse in Texas alone and still have room for Texans. Besides how did we get off on Quorn again .this first fellow wanted to build a surface grinder. We are way off track . Some one tell the man how to build a surface grinder .That WAS the question. I would but cant type fast enough. It aint that hard been their and done that 20 years ago. The funny thing was it worked.

Same here in OZ Lane.

Its no small country here either and good machines for a reasonable price and size to meet my requirements are as scarce as rocking-horse sh*t. I looked around. Because its so big here and that transport both to "go and see" and to have transported home is just as bad if not worse than in the US.

If I am buying "used" ("pre-loved" or owned by a "Little old lady" in "almost new condition" etc.!!) I want to see it and try it out on-site for myself - otherwise its a "no buy" for me. That can take a lot of time and money without buying or getting anything and after a while the temptation is just to "buy something or anything and sort it out later".

Maybe - but not here.

I am almost 72 and have had a few "Gypsies warnings" that expecting to be able to use my shop past 80 might (will!!) be a "big ask" so I had to pull both my finger and my wallet/cheque-book out and give them a good working out - which I did.

As I've said before, I have a bevel grinding attachment for my pedestal grinder and rarely use it either.

I can grind most tools "rough" on the periphery of the wheel and then "finish" them on the side of the wheel. I don't use "guides and slides" - just "off-hand" grinding and either the "fish" for screwing tools or a set of angle guides or a universal bevel guage (pre-set with an angle guage or a protractor) from Littlemachineshop.com:
http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3103&category=1310310429

http://littlemachineshop.com/products/product_view.php?ProductID=3028&category=1438824943

I just "hold them up to the light" and I am usually pretty right.

My point here is that a pedestal grinder can be a pretty good "Tool and Cutter" grinder in its own right. That is all we had in shops when I was younger. T&C and surface grinders were in the Tool Room.

I can get a surface pretty flat with a good straight edge and a good angle grinder with a good wheel. This has been a "stock in trade" for Weldors, Boilermaker-Welders, Blacksmiths and Fitters since "day one".

Sure, surface and T&C grinders may make it easier, but they may not be either necessary or the only tool on or for the job. Its rarely that you can take a T&G or surface grinder to the job - you have to make the best you can with what you've got then/there.

J Tiers
10-20-2008, 10:44 PM
Hold on there.....

Just what is meant by the OP as to "surface grinder" ?

If someone says that, it is logical to take from that the idea that they want "surfaces" flat and smooth to tenths or better...... with a good "hardware" finish. That would be Lane's $4000 used machine.

If you don't care about the finish, you can scrape etc to fine limits, but you get a scraped finish. I happen to like that, but others needn't.

If you don't particularly care about the flatness, but want the finish, there are ways of getting that also, including faking it with a fine wire brush, or a large belt sander.....

if we really ARE talking about the sort of finish that can be had with an angle grinder and flats, a home built SG may do that also without over-taxing the builder. Or a clapped-out SG got for cheap.

There is a bit of apples and potatoes going on here, maybe.

As for how, I mentioned the article in HSM, which at least makes a piece that LOOKS like a small surface grinder, although it may not do much more than relatively flat unless a lot more trouble is taken with it, and some changes made, IIRC... Quite possibly the $250 SG Lane mentions would do as well, and might be cheaper, although bigger and heavier. It would probably take a bigger part, the article one was small, I believe.

Seems like for most people, the option of a Delta/Rockwell "Toolmaker", or possibly the Stent, anyhow a T&C grinder with a table that "can" do surface grinding if required, but meanwhile earns it's keep and shop space doing other useful things seems rather reasonable.

That way you get two, or at least 1 1/2 machines for the space of one.

I like Tiffie's little machines.

If I had any confidence in it, I'd like that one in the videos also..... but I don't trust it enough to spend that sort of cash....

oldtiffie
10-20-2008, 10:47 PM
Oldtiffie if you haven`t tried them yet get you some Chinese CBN wheels for your cutter grinder . A cup and a dish at least . I guarantee you want go back to rock wheels I rounded up of e-bay a bunch of rock wheels then got some diamond and CBN wheel All I use now are the CBN you get some dust but not near the mess as you get with regular wheels and you can just brush it off with a paint brush . beside they grind a whole lot better and you dont have to dress to keep sharp. Best thing since sliced bread.

Thanks Lane.

As usual, I agree with you 100%.

My Al-ox and silicon- carbide wheels haven't seen much work or daylight since I "got wise" and "bit the cost bullet" and "went for" CBN and diamond wheels - much better in every way.

My general observations were for those that still use al-ox and SC wheels.

Getting them off eBay here is pretty well a non-event as there isn't a lot about. So I buy "Norton" (which is now owned by a French company - Saint-Gobain - at: http://www.saint-gobain.com/en/html/index.asp). They provide a beter service than Norton did - or if Norton are still going, SG sure straightened Norton up!!

http://www.ind.nortonabrasives.com/Data/Element/Node/ProductLine/product_line_edit.asp?ele_ch_id=L00000000000000039 59

This is a very good read - a real "down-load and keep it":
http://www.ind.nortonabrasives.com/Media/Documents/S0000000000000001035/Norton%20Full%20Line%202007%20Diamond%20&%20CBN%20Products.pdf

Sure they might be expensive but in terms of performance and "life" as well as the very much reduced wheel-debris that they "throw" they are excellent value for money.

I hope that all this has been of some use to those who either have or want to buy or make a surface grinder.

It sure was of a lot of use to me!!

lazlo
10-20-2008, 10:50 PM
But on this side if you do it is all wore out and in my part of the country nothing less than $4000.00 for any thing usable May be some on north east coast but never been their . This is a big country.

We had a funny thread about that on PM -- a couple of guys, including myself, offered a $100 bounty for a surface grinder in decent condition nearby. No takers :(


You could put the British Ilse in Texas alone and still have room for Texans..

LOL! That's for sure. I'm in Austin, and I've had folks ask me about attending the Houston Metalworking Club, or visiting folks in El Paso. I don't think people realize how friggin' big Texas is :)

lazlo
10-20-2008, 10:59 PM
But having "come up with the goods" (so to speak) with the Quorn, can you find and post a couple of pics of the Stent grinder please

As Norm and Lane know, I really like the Stent design -- it's a miniature version of the Clakson Mark II (http://www.lathes.co.uk/clarkson/img1.gif). As you can see, it has a t-slot table with a rack and pinion feed (or some folks use a bicycle cable on a pulley), so you can do light surface grinding on it:

http://www.homepages.mcb.net/howe/images/stent.jpg

Like Norm mentioned, you can make the Quorn from bar stock, but you really want/need the main casting, which is a big L-shaped block of cast iron, from which you mill dovetail ways:

http://www.petespockets.co.uk/images/stenttcg/StentKit.jpg

Unlike the Quorn castings, which are available in the US from Gary Martin (Martin Model), the Stent castings are only available from Blackgates Engineering in the UK. The price for the castings is very reasonable: about £150. But they want £110.00 ($208 USD) to ship 30 Kg (66 lbs) of castings to the US :mad:

Teenage_Machinist
10-20-2008, 11:32 PM
To me it looks like you could easily make the big L out of welded cast iron.

lazlo
10-20-2008, 11:38 PM
Welding cast iron, especially on a precision machine way, is hard, unless you're Torker :)

Teenage_Machinist
10-20-2008, 11:40 PM
I mean before machining. It looks like that L is the bed+column mount.

Or a great big base plate maybe?


Holy cow this thread has a lot of posts. Seems like discussing the Quorn brings out the wort in people.

macona
10-21-2008, 02:04 AM
You dont weld cast unless you absolutely have to.

Wort in people??? Like St Johns Wort? ;)

Norman Atkinson
10-21-2008, 05:01 AM
I was having a few odd but related thoughts.

In the past, I have mentioned a lot of grinders which have appeared since the Quorn. Is there anyone here built a Brooks or a Bonelle? Both are sort of on the internet and have words and music to follow.
Again, the Tinker by Norman Tinker came out about the same time as the Quorn. An equal amount of hot air was generated then as now. Then Lautard(?) made the Mini Tinker and gave it a your side of the Pond appeal. Who has actually built one? I had the plans and the castings for the original one which was driven by a 6" Double ended grinder.
Further, I had an older collection of stuff from Ian Bradley's Grinding Machine book.

Recently, there have been bits made out of old Myford slides etc- and published too.

Accepting the high costs of sending castings from the UK and others being 'strapped for cash' and others being worse again- strapped for space, there must be someone else to prattle on.

I'm sure that a new slant would be a nice change.
( I could, for instance. be an expert by not having made the things)

Ooops, careful Norm.

oldtiffie
10-21-2008, 06:11 AM
.................................................. .......

That way you get two, or at least 1 1/2 machines for the space of one.

That's about as good a summary as I've seen JT.



.................................................. ...........


I like Tiffie's little machines.

If I had any confidence in it, I'd like that one in the videos also..... but I don't trust it enough to spend that sort of cash....

They really are great machines - a real "pocket rocket" if you like.

A careful look at the Hare and Forbes web site will show that there are several accessories that are not only common to both T&C grinders but are in fact interchangeable. Some/most will fit the SG as well.

http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=G202

http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=G196

http://www.machineryhouse.com.au/Products?stockCode=G198

All are made by the same manufacturer in China. I can say that if, as seems likely, that they are a "knock off" of KO Lee (and several other "re-badged" USA-made machines) that they are of excellent quality and the heaviest density of cast iron that I've seen in a Chinese-made machine. Finish and accuracy are "tops". I would not be surprised that if all marks etc. that the machines were made in China were removed that many quite informed and knowledgeable people would say that they may well have been made in the US to very high standards. That is what I wanted and got and what I wish to retain in these grinders.

For any that missed it, the link to the uTube video that Lane posted in the OP is:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Mill-lathe-tools-multi-function-sharp-grinding-machine_W0QQitemZ250305700262QQihZ015QQcategoryZ10 4240QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

at:
http://bbs.homeshopmachinist.net/showpost.php?p=387974&postcount=1

I was very impressed indeed with the uTube videos in Lane's OP as I recognised the format/pattern of the machine (other T&C/Universal grinder) in the OZ Hare & Forbes (aka MachineryHouse) web site. I was fooled into thinking that they were the same and I probably more than most should have been the hardest to fool. That of course was not the case.

I am concerned to the extent that even though they look the same as the H&F machine and accessories that they may well not be.

After reading and re-reading the comment and advice by you (JT) and others regarding some "weaknesses" etc. I have decided that I will give the source in the videos a "miss" and if I buy one it will be from H&F at the OZ price as the peace of mind id well worth the additional costs.

Never the less, the videos are very relevant to the machines at H&F and were and are very instructive.

But back to your (JT) comment about a having "machine and a half".

That is "spot on" as given that on most T&C and just about all SG operations the wheel spindle is horizontal and square to the "X" travel, that if both the T&C and SG have tee-slots to take a magnetic chuck and accessories that each can do most of the work of the other. I can and do vouch for that.

Most T&C attachments can be adjusted to suit the fixed wheel position of the SG and so the SG becomes a quite effective T&C grinder.

This should address some of the implicit and implied questions and concerns of the OP.

One of my concerns on my SG is getting the wheel and spindle correctly "trammed" to the "X" and "Z" axis - similar to a mill but horizontal. I like to do a bit of "side-wheeling" which is in effect the same as an end-mill or fly-cutter on a vertical surface so that side-wheeled surfaces are flat and vertical with over-lapped "arcs" as on a good fly-cut surface and are not either tilted left/right nor elliptical. This can be crucial in tool-making or making precise fitted parts. It is relatively easy to do on my T&C grinder as I have three fully adjustable axis.

I am "tramming" on one of the angle plates that I "squared off" using the cylindrical "master squares" that I made some time ago and which I had a thread on. It is surprisingly difficult to do as there are no adjustments as such provided or "built in". So, it is a "measure", loosen off, guess the shim needed, tighten up and re-check etc. I have spent some hours on it and there will be more yet. I have some more thinking to do and some "modifications" to make.

Forrest Addy would enjoy the hell out of it seeing what is going on. The other main problem is getting the test dial indicator (TDI) mounted on the wheel spindle sufficiently rigidly to avoid "indicator sag" between the top and bottom readings in particular. He has mentioned and warned of this on several occasions as people try to "dial in" the errors or corrections to the MT and OD of the tail-stock quill on a lathe. I knew exactly what Forrest was talking about then - as did he!!! - and sure enough, it happens. I think that some may have over-looked or ignored that advice. It is not a great concern when "tramming in" a vertical spindle but it sure is or can be with a horizontal spindle or a spindle that is not vertical and gets worse as the spindle gets further off vertical. This can also be a problem if "tramming" with a tilted head (say, mill) to the pre-set flat face on a tilted angle plate.

I am still seriously considering that universal T&C grinder at Hare and Forbes.

I suggest that people "look past" the fact that my machines and accessories are Chinese and have a good look at the accessories and how they are made to do the jobs they do. It is the principles that are important. If it eases their minds or consciences, I'd suggest that they regard them as being a "knocked off" US design.

If I get time in the next day or so I will put some of the accessories on the grinders and post links to the pics of them.

Norman Atkinson
10-21-2008, 06:58 AM
Here we run into trouble- with copyright(sh1t, sh1t, and more sh1t) but friend chaddock made the universal tool holder for his Quorn. All sorts of graduations and holders and things but this was for going on a round bar to go onto a tilting protractor base to go around a 1" round bar.
_ Ball handles, Ball handles) But it's great piece of weaponry. In fact it so great that Friend Brooks simply chopped off the bottom to fit what has subsequently been dubbed the Brooks Stent( it isn't but what is?). So it does fit the Stent and a Mr G.W. Howe has chopped off Chaddock's base( ouch) and put it on a real Stent. It's in Workshop Projects 1 on the net. However, my mate did it and I sort of borrowed it. Unquestionably, it fits a lot of grinders including the Clarkson. I did give George it back( honest, I did) and I gave him a diamond wheel ex doing spectacle lenses!
It does bring me back to Honest John and Oor Gert aka MaryPoppinsBag and E-bay fame. His wonderful assorted collection of grindy things on a CD has a bewildering assortment of accessories. There is a fancy one which rounds ends. And if you need your end rounded buy the CD!
Now the Quorn does this. It needs access to a strange fertility dance but you can round lathe tools and ends of mills! I have a rather posher version which I got at enenormous expense for a few cogs for a Myford! It is all there if you Google 'Lathes.co.uk.'
So the accessories increase and increase. Mick is so right that he is going to put some, anyway, on the net for your delectation. But have a look at John S's CD.
Again, I have a remarkable assortment of wooden accessories-- made out of my head and best softwood!
Do they work, too bloody true!

So I am having that eye weariness and would add. this spiralling thing? Why not get out the book of Kings and work out how to adorn it with pomegranets and hollow it and put in your books on the subject? It isn't needed- sorry but it isn't.
Are the ball handles need? If you can be arsed to get a nut and bolt or several and a spanner, I can assure you that the Quorn works just as well. One of my ball handles is actually a cotter and nut.

So mine has an odder bit- a slide from a 10" long baby lathe with a daft 10tpi feedscrew.

Now you see why I was chucked or almost chucked out of Quorn_Buyers Forum!

Norm

S_J_H
10-21-2008, 02:29 PM
Well I might like to build one of these little T&C grinders.
I see we have the Quorn, the Bonelle, the Stent and probably more with versions of each.
I ask all of you in the know about these little machines, which one would be the most versatile to have. I'm not worried about build difficulty.
Also are there any free plans for the Stent available?

Thanks,

Steve

lazlo
10-21-2008, 02:35 PM
In fact it so great that Friend Brooks simply chopped off the bottom to fit what has subsequently been dubbed the Brooks Stent( it isn't but what is?).

Norm, Brook's version is a Stent without castings. He replaced the cast iron dovetail ways with round linear ways.

Gadgetmaker made a really nice version.


So it does fit the Stent and a Mr G.W. Howe has chopped off Chaddock's base( ouch) and put it on a real Stent.

The picture of the Stent I posted in the other thread is of Graham Howe's version with the Quorn spindle.

Norman Atkinson
10-21-2008, 02:53 PM
The answer is - No, the Stent plans are available from Blackgates Engineering. The quorn plans are in Model Engieer- way back in 1973 but there is still the Quorn Book from Tee Publishing. John S has the Bonelle on his CD but as I had the blue light of death recently I lost quite a lot of stuff on my PC. The Bonelle, if I recall correctly, is also on the net and with some minor corrections.
If I was starting from scratch, I would buy the Quorn book even if I was going to make a Stent.Again, I would at least refer to Model Engineers Workshop for the Brooks drawings which include a version of the Quorn tool holder. I suspect that these are in issues 16 and 17.

Again, I would go for the Quorn Spindle. regardless of earlier somewhat untested opinions.

I have a pair of hospital jobs ahead( ugh) but maybe you could E-Mail me at norman@n-atkinson.wanadoo.co.uk.

If you have welding facilities, I would hybridise( is that a word) to make a Stent but with the Quorn goodies.
The fabricated Stent( I didn't make it) is running on mild steel to mild steel. And that Steve, should get me flamed once again-- but it works

Cheers

Norm

Norman Atkinson
10-21-2008, 03:10 PM
Robert,
I still have Derek Brook's grinder plans ex MEW 16 and 17. Again, I have Graham Howe's stuff on file. I have my 1973 Quorn stuff ex-ME and -I think, all of Philip Amos's stuff in MEW. As you know I have the metric and the imperial plans for the Stent. I also have those for my Kennet- and quite a lot of grinder stuff. .
What I have to avoid is getting into more copyright problems.

'Your' pre-machined Stent castings are still there. The guy isn't moving

Cheers

Norm

oldtiffie
10-22-2008, 07:09 AM
Well I might like to build one of these little T&C grinders.
I see we have the Quorn, the Bonelle, the Stent and probably more with versions of each.
I ask all of you in the know about these little machines, which one would be the most versatile to have. I'm not worried about build difficulty.
Also are there any free plans for the Stent available?

Thanks,

Steve

Steve, my grinders are made for and have a 6" x 12" magnetic chuck which pretty well defines their operating envelope - with a good "Z" as well.

I would rarely need more than 6" x 4" on the chuck or more than 8>10" above it (allowing for T&C fixtures) so there is no real reason why a "Stent" or similar won't do most jobs - especially if you have a pedestal grinder with a "side and bevel" able to be used on the side of what ever wheel you have mounted for it.

I will try to remember to post pics of mine tomorrow.

oldtiffie
10-23-2008, 06:37 AM
I mentioned a Bevel guide on my pedestal grinder.

Here it is:
This is an OZ-made combined 7" face sander with a tilting bevel guide as well as a belt sander both of which are fitted to my 8" pedestal grinder from the same manufacturer. A very good machine indeed:
http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Belt_sander/Belt_sander1.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Belt_sander/Belt_sander2.jpg

http://i200.photobucket.com/albums/aa294/oldtiffie/Belt_sander/Belt_sander3.jpg

"Now what has this got to do with a surface grinder or a tool & cutter grinder?" You may well ask.

All tool grinding does not need to be done on a SG or T&C grinder. A lot of it - most of it here - can be done on a pedestal grinder or a sander (disk or belt).

I grind all of my lathe tools on the pedestal grinder mostly. I work off the face (round) part of the wheel so that I get a "hollow ground" face and edges that are MUCH easier than a flat face to hone with a diamond (hand-held) slip/honing stone. I sometimes "finish off" on the side (flat) of the wheel.

I use the disc sander quite a bit as well. I find that the sanders (disk and belt) both tend to leave a "bump" and "rounded edge" where it first contacts the face being ground, so I invert ("up-end") the face being ground and it works perfectly well. I also use both the "flat" (on top) and the "rounded nose" (on the front) of the belt sander as well - works great. The sander is much cooler than a grinding wheel and really gets material off when needed. I keep some old belts for "fine" grinds and finishes.

I rarely if ever use the bevel and guides as I prefer to do all my grinding as "off-hand" on the "front" of the wheel. If a face or edge is not flat/straight, I use the side of the wheel.

I keep my wheels "dressed" with a "star-wheel" dresser or a diamond of a carborundum square cheap, hand-held "dressing stick" (seems to last forever).

So, even though I have adequate SG and T&C grinder capacity I rarely do or have to use them for tool grinding - but they are there if and when required.

malbenbut
10-23-2008, 12:17 PM
Found this T&C compound table in my friends shed,its now in mine.

http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a70/malbenbut/100_1372.jpg

He said it was off a Excel grinder. I clocked table and it was within .001" over 16".
I'm now looking for grinding head or column that could be adapted.
MBB

lazlo
10-23-2008, 02:58 PM
I'm now looking for grinding head or column that could be adapted.

Nice! You've got the major bits of a nice tool and cutter grinder there! On my Brown & Sharpe No. 5 tool and cutter grinder, the grinder head is on a very stout hollow round column. The only tricky part would be the acme feed for the grinder head, which goes through the center of the column.

For a grinder head, you could make the head section of the Quorn or Stent, and mount it on the round column. Like Norm has often said, Chaddock's design of the Quorn spindle, using a pair of opposing magneto or angular contact bearings, is simple and elegant.

Norman Atkinson
10-23-2008, 03:35 PM
I lost all my Hard Drive a bit back. I'm trying to use an old E-mail add to Malcolm to try to help.

Unfortunately, my eyesight is almost U/S- for the present

Norm

S_J_H
10-23-2008, 03:46 PM
ehhhh, It would be nice to have a T&C Grinder. I'll have to put it on my list of future projects for now, unless I happen to find one cheap.
I have a bench, disk / belt and one of those H.F. carbide grinders. Probably use the disk/belt combo more than the others.
I have to finish my H.B.M. project before starting anything else.

Steve

Norman Atkinson
10-23-2008, 03:56 PM
Steve,
Actually you have a tool and cutter grinder!

Google 'Kennet' and it should bring up MES who sell both Quorn and Kennet. Google up Hemingwaykits and the Worden and it should bring up the fittings.
Bring up 'Brooks Stent grinder'
You should then have enough to make a home brewed grinder which will be more than capable of doing most of your grinding needs.

If you want the tide tables for HongKong Harbor as well, I can get them but adopt the information suggested first?

Norm

S_J_H
10-23-2008, 04:03 PM
Thanks Norm, I'll do the research as you suggested.

Steve

malbenbut
10-23-2008, 05:06 PM
Sorry you lost your hard drive Norman (Are we talking about sex or your computer). If its sex I think mine's under the bed somewhere gathering dust, if its your computer cant help. Try Aboard Epsilon he's taught me about all I know about computers, he's told me lots more but I can't remember it all.
Will e u tomorrow.
MBB

Peter.
10-23-2008, 05:22 PM
I lost all my Hard Drive a bit back. I'm trying to use an old E-mail add to Malcolm to try to help.

Unfortunately, my eyesight is almost U/S- for the present

Norm

If your hard disk failed and you need the data off it you can talk to Duncan at www.retrodata.co.uk. He does a deal for personal data that is much cheaper than commercial. He'll also diagnose your drive for free so if it is not recoverable you'll pay nothing more than the postage AFAIK.

Norman Atkinson
10-23-2008, 05:23 PM
Oh dear! Well it's like this, yer honour!
I got the blue light of death and I lost all me bits in the computer. Earlier, I had a rather interesting experience with a half Scottish?half Chinese lady at the *************Hospital in Newcastle. Don't have an anaesthetic quoted SHMBO 'cos they'll knock your remaining gnashers out. So there was I lying on this slab thing with this lady complete with Black and Decker in one hand and - and me Shakespearean 'Much Ada about Nothing' and she sort of got a wedging action with a - well she did. And that was the end of an end. This is why I am an expert on Tool and Cutter grinding. I am merely trying to recall those far off days.
I tried to get into the Chinese Freemasons and they said that I needed an Oriental connection. They laughed in a funny sort of way- and said that I only had a tenuous connection. When you look at it now, probably they were right!

Now Malcolm, where were we?

Norm

Peter N
10-24-2008, 03:08 AM
Norm, I think you e-mailed me all the details of the Stent or the Brooks Stent a few years back. I seem to remember about 5 or 6 e-mails with large-ish attachments.
I'm sure if I have a dig around I'll find them gathering dust on a hard drive somewhere - would you like me to search for them and e-mail them back to you, as it sounds like you may have lost them with your drive crash.

Peter

Norman Atkinson
10-24-2008, 03:41 AM
Peter,
My thanks for your valued help( as usual- he's great guy)

I was in the Nuffield yesterday and more 'events ' must follow.After all, I am 78+.

Obviously, I have to sort out bits for Malcolm but there is a whole heap of guys who would be delighted to have access to information which you possess.

Apart from anything else, I have serious sight deficiencies, my memory isn't terribly good- and my temper rather more abrasive than before( wow!).

We could do with a younger man here? Sincerely, getting a better successor would please me no end.

Yes?

Cheers

Norm

Peter N
10-24-2008, 05:19 AM
Norman, found the scans and have sent them to your e-mail address.
There were 8 PDf files in total, and I have sent them in 3 seperate e-mails.
Regards

Peter

Norman Atkinson
10-24-2008, 05:36 AM
First 2 arrived- so far. Just written to Malcolm. Suggesting a Stent or Brooks. I have Brooks on file, I have Bonelle on file and I think 113 pages on t&C's left.
Big question is 'How does this old fart, download to these people?' Without me having a nervous breakdown---- shuuuddddder!!!!!!!!!!

We ARE getting somewhere, thanks Peter


Norm